A spare LONGFORD
Louise Staley
Having now read the excellent article on the Longfords in the latest FMG
Journal I am left with a spare Longford, Alice wife of Robert Neville of
Rolleston, Notts. As a descendant of Alice, I am particularly interested
in any evidence of her existence and paternity.
From my notes I see I got the modern resuscitation of Alice as a daughter
of Sir Nicholas Longford (1350-1401) and Margery Sulney ( -aft.1431) from
a post by Douglas Richardson to SGM in July 2003. Doug subsequently sent
his sources to Robert O'Connor. Robert O'Connor in a later post reported
these to be Payling, p 237; Farnham, p 34; HSP Leic, p 21;Gen NS 33, pp
154-5.
Now these references are more fully described as;
Payling: Payling, S.J (1991), Political Society in Lancastrian England, p.
237
Farnham: Farnham, G. F (1925) Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees, pp 34-36.
HSP Leic: Lennard, S & Vincent, A (1870), Visitation of Leicester 1619
(Harleian Society Publication, 2), p.21-22.
Gen NS 33: Canon, E.R. (1917) “Neville of Rolleston, Grove and Thorney” in
The Genealogist New Series, Volume 33, p 154-5
None of these are contemporary sources, although Farnham, Payling & Canon
may cite contemporary sources.
Then we have Rosie Bevan's careful Longford article which deals explicitly
with errors in the Visitations and reconstructs the Longfords based on
contemporary sources. With respect to the children of Sir Nicholas
Longford and Margery Sulney, Bevan concludes, "Margery and Nicholas are
known to have had a family of six sons - Nicholas, John, Thomas, Alfred,
Henry and Ralph - and at least two daughters, Joan and Ellen" (Bevan 2004:
220). The possibility is left open for other daughters to exist.
However, Bevan goes on to offer a detailed treatment of the lives of all
known children of Sir Nicholas and Margery. Of particular interest are the
marriages of the known daughters: Joan to Sir Nicholas Montgomery and
Ellen to Sir Henry Pierrepont. (In passing, as a descendant of Ellen
Longford and Henry Pierrepont, this work is particularly exciting to me.)
Considerable evidence is marshalled to support these marriages and the
list of references cited in the article runs to over 50 as well as an
additional 37 footnoted references to individual documents available
on-line from the PRO or A2A. Had Bevan found contemporary evidence of an
additional daughter (or daughters) this would have been presented, if only
in a footnote suggesting possible existence.
If we return to Doug’s identification, PA3 provides many additional
sources than the four quoted by Robert O’Connor to SGM.
Of these, two are visitations: Leicester, and the notoriously unreliable
Yorkshire. The Leicester one makes Robert Neville’s wife the unnamed
daughter of Ralph Longford and this is impossible since Ralph Longford was
born in 1401 and Alice his supposed daughter married in 1402. The
Yorkshire visitation identifies Alice as the daughter of Nicholas Longford.
Burke’s Landed Gentry gets a guernsey as a source although my copy also
makes Alice the daughter of Ralph.
Then there’s a whole heap of references that don’t mention Alice at all:
VCH Yorks.(1914), two patent rolls entries, Canon (1917), Wagner (1983),
Clay (1973), Roskell (1992) and the Peake MSS (on-line at A2A).
Moving through the list is Farnham who doesn’t mention Alice’s surname or
father but does say Robert Neville married Alice ____ and cites a
contemporary property settlement as his source. Payling also refers to her
simply as Alice ____.
That leaves us with Nichols and Nicolas. Nicolas is a book about a
heraldry court case in 1385 between Richard le Scrope and Robert
Grosvenor. I haven’t seen it but I find it inconceivable it would mention
Alice. I also haven’t seen Nichols “History and Antiquity of Leicester”
Neville pedigree so Alice may be in this, can anyone confirm this?
So the only sources that say Robert Neville of Rolleston married Alice
Longford are the Yorkshire Visitation and possibly Nichols. This is
disappointing as I know from personal experience on the Thwaites and other
lines that the Yorkshire Visitation is one of the worst in terms of
accuracy, I prefer Burke’s as a source. Even if this is one of the better
Yorkshire Visitations, we are still talking about a marriage that
supposedly took place 183 years before the Visitation was taken.
Unfortunately it seems I was hasty in assigning Alice Neville as a
Longford and she will have to return to being Alice NN.
Alice’s paternity does not appear to exist in contemporary documents. I
would be very interested in hearing from any other Longford or Neville
researchers as to whether anyone has ever found a contemporary source that
links the Longfords and the Nevilles around 1400 when the marriage is said
to have occurred. I would also be very interested in contemporary sources
for the Nevilles of Rolleston as the 19th century sources are
contradictory and unlikely in suggesting a near link to the Nevilles of
Raby.
thanks
Louise
--
Quod dixi dixi
Peter Stewart
study of the Longfords in 'Foundations' is characteristically thorough
and truly informative, and it's good to see such inquiries raised on SGM
from the outstanding work of the forum's participants elsewhere.
As for PA3, its misstatements of evidence and poor referencing of
sources, your concerns and diligence in pursuing these may well be an
example to others.
Douglas Richardson is perhaps on holiday, since he hasn't yet addressed
some critical comments of a type and import that he would normally
strive in vain to deflect, or misrepresent as praise.
Peter Stewart
Louise Staley wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> Having now read the excellent article on the Longfords in the latest FMG
> Journal I am left with a spare Longford, Alice wife of Robert Neville of
> Rolleston, Notts. As a descendant of Alice, I am particularly interested
> in any evidence of her existence and paternity.
>
> From my notes I see I got the modern resuscitation of Alice as a
> daughter of Sir Nicholas Longford (1350-1401) and Margery Sulney (
> -aft.1431) from a post by Douglas Richardson to SGM in July 2003. Doug
> subsequently sent his sources to Robert O'Connor. Robert O'Connor in a
> later post reported these to be Payling, p 237; Farnham, p 34; HSP Leic,
> p 21;Gen NS 33, pp 154-5.
>
> Now these references are more fully described as;
>
> Payling: Payling, S.J (1991), Political Society in Lancastrian England,
> p. 237
> Farnham: Farnham, G. F (1925) Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees, pp 34-36.
> HSP Leic: Lennard, S & Vincent, A (1870), Visitation of Leicester 1619
> (Harleian Society Publication, 2), p.21-22.
> Gen NS 33: Canon, E.R. (1917) â??Neville of Rolleston, Grove and
> Thorneyâ?? in The Genealogist New Series, Volume 33, p 154-5
>
> None of these are contemporary sources, although Farnham, Payling &
> Canon may cite contemporary sources.
>
> Then we have Rosie Bevan's careful Longford article which deals
> explicitly with errors in the Visitations and reconstructs the Longfords
> based on contemporary sources. With respect to the children of Sir
> Nicholas Longford and Margery Sulney, Bevan concludes, "Margery and
> Nicholas are known to have had a family of six sons - Nicholas, John,
> Thomas, Alfred, Henry and Ralph - and at least two daughters, Joan and
> Ellen" (Bevan 2004: 220). The possibility is left open for other
> daughters to exist.
>
> However, Bevan goes on to offer a detailed treatment of the lives of all
> known children of Sir Nicholas and Margery. Of particular interest are
> the marriages of the known daughters: Joan to Sir Nicholas Montgomery
> and Ellen to Sir Henry Pierrepont. (In passing, as a descendant of Ellen
> Longford and Henry Pierrepont, this work is particularly exciting to
> me.) Considerable evidence is marshalled to support these marriages and
> the list of references cited in the article runs to over 50 as well as
> an additional 37 footnoted references to individual documents available
> on-line from the PRO or A2A. Had Bevan found contemporary evidence of an
> additional daughter (or daughters) this would have been presented, if
> only in a footnote suggesting possible existence.
>
> If we return to Dougâ??s identification, PA3 provides many additional
> sources than the four quoted by Robert Oâ??Connor to SGM.
>
> Of these, two are visitations: Leicester, and the notoriously unreliable
> Yorkshire. The Leicester one makes Robert Nevilleâ??s wife the unnamed
> daughter of Ralph Longford and this is impossible since Ralph Longford
> was born in 1401 and Alice his supposed daughter married in 1402. The
> Yorkshire visitation identifies Alice as the daughter of Nicholas Longford.
>
> Burkeâ??s Landed Gentry gets a guernsey as a source although my copy
> also makes Alice the daughter of Ralph.
>
> Then thereâ??s a whole heap of references that donâ??t mention Alice at
> all: VCH Yorks.(1914), two patent rolls entries, Canon (1917), Wagner
> (1983), Clay (1973), Roskell (1992) and the Peake MSS (on-line at A2A).
>
> Moving through the list is Farnham who doesnâ??t mention Aliceâ??s
> surname or father but does say Robert Neville married Alice ____ and
> cites a contemporary property settlement as his source. Payling also
> refers to her simply as Alice ____.
>
> That leaves us with Nichols and Nicolas. Nicolas is a book about a
> heraldry court case in 1385 between Richard le Scrope and Robert
> Grosvenor. I havenâ??t seen it but I find it inconceivable it would
> mention Alice. I also havenâ??t seen Nichols â??History and Antiquity of
> Leicesterâ?? Neville pedigree so Alice may be in this, can anyone
> confirm this?
>
> So the only sources that say Robert Neville of Rolleston married Alice
> Longford are the Yorkshire Visitation and possibly Nichols. This is
> disappointing as I know from personal experience on the Thwaites and
> other lines that the Yorkshire Visitation is one of the worst in terms
> of accuracy, I prefer Burkeâ??s as a source. Even if this is one of the
> better Yorkshire Visitations, we are still talking about a marriage that
> supposedly took place 183 years before the Visitation was taken.
> Unfortunately it seems I was hasty in assigning Alice Neville as a
> Longford and she will have to return to being Alice NN.
>
> Aliceâ??s paternity does not appear to exist in contemporary documents.
Nathaniel Taylor
Louise Staley <car...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Nicolas is a book about a
> heraldry court case in 1385 between Richard le Scrope and Robert
> Grosvenor. I haven’t seen it but I find it inconceivable it would mention
> Alice.
Actually Sir Nicholas H. Nicolas' (partial) edition of the famous
'Scrope v. Grosvenor' documentation is in two volumes, of which the
second is largely taken up with a fairly discursive prosopography, by
Nicolas (but also, alas, incomplete), of the many deponents in the suit
(including Chaucer). Your subject is probably mentioned there, not in
the original text. Nicolas' sketches are not footnoted, though likely
you would be able to see which other (modern) source or visitation
Nicolas drew his information from.
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
<nathanieltaylor-AB...@news01.east.earthlink.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I found a photocopy of the deponent list (vol. 1) and the prosopography
list (vol. 2), which is a subset of it. There are no Longford
deponents, but perhaps one of the three Nevilles who are subject of a
sketch is related to your Robert Neville of Rolleston, and may include
mention of your Alice (?Longford), his wife. They are Sir Robert
Neville (2:293), Sir William Neville (2:442), and Sir William Neville of
Pykhall (2:359). I don't have the volume handy.
Nat Taylor
Louise Staley
> <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I found a photocopy of the deponent list (vol. 1) and the prosopography
> list (vol. 2), which is a subset of it. There are no Longford
> deponents, but perhaps one of the three Nevilles who are subject of a
> sketch is related to your Robert Neville of Rolleston, and may include
> mention of your Alice (?Longford), his wife. They are Sir Robert
> Neville (2:293), Sir William Neville (2:442), and Sir William Neville of
> Pykhall (2:359). I don't have the volume handy.
>
> Nat Taylor
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nathanieltaylor/
Dear Nat,
Thanks for looking up the deponent list. I would say the one I am looking
for is Sir Robert (2:293). If anyone else has Nicolas and can post what it
says I would appreciate it.
Rosie Bevan
The Longford study attempts to give as full and accurate a family
history as possible and this involved an exercise in straightening out
errors which occur for five consecutive generations in the Visitation
pedigree. I used contemporary sources where possible but found no
evidence for a marriage between Robert Neville and a Longford
daughter, which I understand originates from two conflicting
Visitation pedigrees, one of which is chronologically impossible. As
such the connection should be considered unsupported and unproven.
In 1274 the Pierreponts were enfeoffed in the manor of Rolleston by
Andrew de Neville for the payment of 400 marks. The Pierreponts
already owned part of Rolleston via the marriage of Sir Robert
Pierrepont to a daughter of Sir John Heriz. They held the manor for
164 years until 1438 when Henry Pierrepont sold it back to Thomas
Neville (Robert's son), his overlord. Pierrepont was by then heavily
in debt and sold off several estates in the 1430s and 1440s, so it is
unlikely that anything genealogical can be read into the sale. Robert
Neville and his wife Alice never occupied Rolleston, but what I
suspect is the case is that there may have been Longford armorials
pertaining to Ellen Longford in Rolleston church. This might have led
to an assumed connection in later years, hence vagueness by the
Heralds as to paternity.
The online records of Neville of Holt have been available on A2A for
some time and can be found under Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland
Record Office: Peake MSS.
Cheers
Rosie
Louise Staley <car...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<opsbxun3...@news.bigpond.com>...
> Dear Group,
>
> Having now read the excellent article on the Longfords in the latest FMG
> Journal I am left with a spare Longford, Alice wife of Robert Neville of
> Rolleston, Notts. As a descendant of Alice, I am particularly interested
> in any evidence of her existence and paternity.
>
> From my notes I see I got the modern resuscitation of Alice as a daughter
> of Sir Nicholas Longford (1350-1401) and Margery Sulney ( -aft.1431) from
> a post by Douglas Richardson to SGM in July 2003. Doug subsequently sent
> his sources to Robert O'Connor. Robert O'Connor in a later post reported
> these to be Payling, p 237; Farnham, p 34; HSP Leic, p 21;Gen NS 33, pp
> 154-5.
>
> Now these references are more fully described as;
>
> Payling: Payling, S.J (1991), Political Society in Lancastrian England, p.
> 237
> Farnham: Farnham, G. F (1925) Leicestershire Medieval Pedigrees, pp 34-36.
> HSP Leic: Lennard, S & Vincent, A (1870), Visitation of Leicester 1619
> (Harleian Society Publication, 2), p.21-22.
> Gen NS 33: Canon, E.R. (1917) “Neville of Rolleston, Grove and Thorney†in
> The Genealogist New Series, Volume 33, p 154-5
>
> None of these are contemporary sources, although Farnham, Payling & Canon
> may cite contemporary sources.
>
> Then we have Rosie Bevan's careful Longford article which deals explicitly
> with errors in the Visitations and reconstructs the Longfords based on
> contemporary sources. With respect to the children of Sir Nicholas
> Longford and Margery Sulney, Bevan concludes, "Margery and Nicholas are
> known to have had a family of six sons - Nicholas, John, Thomas, Alfred,
> Henry and Ralph - and at least two daughters, Joan and Ellen" (Bevan 2004:
> 220). The possibility is left open for other daughters to exist.
>
> However, Bevan goes on to offer a detailed treatment of the lives of all
> known children of Sir Nicholas and Margery. Of particular interest are the
> marriages of the known daughters: Joan to Sir Nicholas Montgomery and
> Ellen to Sir Henry Pierrepont. (In passing, as a descendant of Ellen
> Longford and Henry Pierrepont, this work is particularly exciting to me.)
> Considerable evidence is marshalled to support these marriages and the
> list of references cited in the article runs to over 50 as well as an
> additional 37 footnoted references to individual documents available
> on-line from the PRO or A2A. Had Bevan found contemporary evidence of an
> additional daughter (or daughters) this would have been presented, if only
> in a footnote suggesting possible existence.
>
> If we return to Doug’s identification, PA3 provides many additional
> sources than the four quoted by Robert O’Connor to SGM.
>
> Of these, two are visitations: Leicester, and the notoriously unreliable
> Yorkshire. The Leicester one makes Robert Neville’s wife the unnamed
> daughter of Ralph Longford and this is impossible since Ralph Longford was
> born in 1401 and Alice his supposed daughter married in 1402. The
> Yorkshire visitation identifies Alice as the daughter of Nicholas Longford.
>
> Burke’s Landed Gentry gets a guernsey as a source although my copy also
> makes Alice the daughter of Ralph.
>
> Then there’s a whole heap of references that don’t mention Alice at all:
> VCH Yorks.(1914), two patent rolls entries, Canon (1917), Wagner (1983),
> Clay (1973), Roskell (1992) and the Peake MSS (on-line at A2A).
>
> Moving through the list is Farnham who doesn’t mention Alice’s surname or
> father but does say Robert Neville married Alice ____ and cites a
> contemporary property settlement as his source. Payling also refers to her
> simply as Alice ____.
>
> That leaves us with Nichols and Nicolas. Nicolas is a book about a
> heraldry court case in 1385 between Richard le Scrope and Robert
> Grosvenor. I haven’t seen it but I find it inconceivable it would mention
> Alice. I also haven’t seen Nichols “History and Antiquity of Leicesterâ€ÂÂ
> Neville pedigree so Alice may be in this, can anyone confirm this?
>
> So the only sources that say Robert Neville of Rolleston married Alice
> Longford are the Yorkshire Visitation and possibly Nichols. This is
> disappointing as I know from personal experience on the Thwaites and other
> lines that the Yorkshire Visitation is one of the worst in terms of
> accuracy, I prefer Burke’s as a source. Even if this is one of the better
> Yorkshire Visitations, we are still talking about a marriage that
> supposedly took place 183 years before the Visitation was taken.
> Unfortunately it seems I was hasty in assigning Alice Neville as a
> Longford and she will have to return to being Alice NN.
>
> Alice’s paternity does not appear to exist in contemporary documents. I
Louise Staley
Thank-you Rosie for alerting me to the references in the Peake MSS at A2A,
it is a veritable treasure trove for the Nevilles of Rolleston. Given how
early some of the deeds are it debunks the notion that the Nevilles of
Rolleston were descended from the Nevilles of Raby in the 15th century. It
should go a long way to clearing up any errors in the Neville Visitations
as well, no doubt there is an article in there somewhere for someone to
write!
As an update to my original message, Nichols in his "History & Antiquities
of Leicestershire" vol.2 p.730 follows the Leicestershire Visitation and
makes Alice the wife of Ralph Longford, which is chronologically
impossible. That only leaves Nicolas outstanding as a possible other
source for Alice. So far Alice is only identified as a daughter of Sir
Nicholas Longford in the Yorkshire Visitation.
For the interest of Neville researchers, these are two of the references
mentioned in Rosie's post. The first is the enoffment by Andrew Neville to
Sir Henry Pierrepont in 1274 and the second is the sale back fron the
Nevilles to their overlords the Pierrponts in 1438.
regards
Louise
Reference: DE220/29
Creation dates: 1274
Physical characteristics: Tag for seal
Scope and Content
Agreement; chirograph: between Andrew de Nevil & Sir Henry de Perpunt:
Andrew has enfeoffed Sir Henry of all his land held by villein-tenure,
with 22 villeins, in ROLDESTON, and with his water-mill there, as more
fully contained in a deed delivered for custody into the hand of the Prior
of Thurgarton, and for which villeins, land and mills Sir Henry paid
Andrew 400 marks sterling: if Andrew shall fully satisfy Sir Henry on St.
Thomas's Day or Christmas Day in the parish church of ROLDESTON of the
said 400 marks the said deed, with seisin of the villeins, land & mills,
is to be restored to said Andrew, but if Andrew shall fail to make payment
to Sir Henry at the day and place mentioned, the deed shall be handed over
to Sir Henry by the Prior and Sir Henry shall remain enfeoffed for ever:
alternate sealing clause: witn: Sir Adam, Prior of Thurgarton; Sirs Robt.
de Mutton, Robt. de Stob' Robt, de Burstal; Nich. de Eyvil; Hugh de
Babinton; John de Herice; John de Dine; John de Annesl; Henry de Mibetorp;
Wm. son of Aloter; Andrew son of Benedict; Hugh de Codinton, clerk; Walt.
de Stretton clerk.
Reference: DE220/54
Creation dates: 13 Hen. VI, morrow of St. Edm. the martyr
Physical characteristics: Tag on seal, black wax, device
Scope and Content
Direction to feoffees: (Sir) Henry Perepount, knt., of co. Nottingham to
Roger, Abbot of Darley?, John, Prior of Lenton, Robt., Prior of Newested
and John Bowes: whereas Sir Henry acknowledges the manor of ROLDESTON to
be the right of Nich. Conyngston, as said Nich., Roger, John, Robt., and
John Bowes had by gift of Sir Henry, and since Thos. Nevyll, esq., has
bargained the said manor of Sir Henry for a certain sum, said Sir Henry
requires the said Abbot, Priors and John Bowes to make Thos. Nevyll a sure
estate in the manor, except lands in ROLDESTON, in the tenure of William
Clerk, called Herryslandes, and to deliver to said Thos. all the deeds
concerning the manor when required by him: sealing clause.
Rosie Bevan
The Longford study attempts to give as full and accurate a family history as
possible and this involved an exercise in straightening out errors which
occur for five consecutive generations in the Visitation pedigree. I used
contemporary sources where possible but found no evidence for a marriage
between Robert Neville and a Longford daughter, which I understand
originates from two conflicting Visitation pedigrees, one of which is
chronologically impossible. As such the connection should be considered
unsupported and unproven.
In 1274 the Pierreponts were enfeoffed in the manor of Rolleston by Andrew
de Neville for the payment of 400 marks. The Pierreponts already owned part
of Rolleston via the marriage of Sir Robert Pierrepont to a daughter of Sir
John Heriz. They held the manor for 164 years until 1438 when Henry
Pierrepont sold it back to Thomas Neville (Robert's son), his overlord.
Pierrepont was by then heavily in debt and sold off several estates in the
1430s and 1440s, so it is unlikely that anything genealogical can be read
into the sale. Robert Neville and his wife Alice never occupied Rolleston,
but what I suspect is the case is that there may have been Longford
armorials pertaining to Ellen Longford in Rolleston church. This might have
led to assumption of a connection, hence vagueness by the Heralds as to
paternity.
The online records of Neville of Holt have been available on A2A for some
time and can be found under Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record
Office: Peake MSS.
Cheers
Rosie
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Rosie and Group,
>
> Thank-you Rosie for alerting me to the references in the Peake MSS at A2A,
> it is a veritable treasure trove for the Nevilles of Rolleston. Given how
> early some of the deeds are it debunks the notion that the Nevilles of
> Rolleston were descended from the Nevilles of Raby in the 15th century. It
> should go a long way to clearing up any errors in the Neville Visitations
> as well, no doubt there is an article in there somewhere for someone to
> write!
>
> As an update to my original message, Nichols in his "History & Antiquities
> of Leicestershire" vol.2 p.730 follows the Leicestershire Visitation and
> makes Alice the wife of Ralph Longford, which is chronologically
> impossible. That only leaves Nicolas outstanding as a possible other
> source for Alice. So far Alice is only identified as a daughter of Sir
> Nicholas Longford in the Yorkshire Visitation.
Not in the 1563-4 Visitation nor in the 1583 (?) one published by
Foster, which I had a look at today. There is simply no mention of an
Alice Longford in either's index.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Louise
>
> The Longford study attempts to give as full and accurate a family history as
> possible and this involved an exercise in straightening out errors which
> occur for five consecutive generations in the Visitation pedigree. I used
> contemporary sources where possible but found no evidence for a marriage
> between Robert Neville and a Longford daughter, which I understand
> originates from two conflicting Visitation pedigrees, one of which is
> chronologically impossible.
I wish I could find which visitation in which year this is actually in
- or reported to be in. Can you clarify? (I can find nothing in the
two Yorks visitations of 1563-4 and c.1583)
--
John Higgins
Neville/Longford marriage are probably those referenced in the newly
published Plantagenet Ancestry. They are the 1619 Visitation of
Leicestershire (HSP 2:21) and Glover's Visitations of Yorkshire (Foster
ed.), p. 6. It's not immediately clear that any of the other sources in
this line of RPA support this marriage or the parentage of the wife of Sir
Robert Neville of Rolleston (except for Nichols' Leics, also cited, which as
was previosuly pointed out simply cites the 1619 visitation).
Since Rosie's exhaustive work on the Longfords has failed to find any trace
of this elusive Alice, it would seem wise to be wary of the visitation
pedigrees - which at best don't indicate WHICH of the numerous Nicholas
Longfords was her supposed father.
Can someone explain why it is believed that at least one of the visitation
pedigrees is chronologically impossible?
John Higgins
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
Rosie Bevan
The reason why it is impossible for Alice to be a daughter of Sir Ralph
Longford is because he was born in 1401 (proof of age, 1422) and she was
known from the fine to be married in 1402.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> FWIW, the two visitation pedigrees mentioned by Rosie which cite a
> Neville/Longford marriage are probably those referenced in the newly
> published Plantagenet Ancestry. They are the 1619 Visitation of
> Leicestershire (HSP 2:21) and Glover's Visitations of Yorkshire
> (Foster ed.), p. 6.
The 1619 Leics visitation, p. 21, says only that a Robert Nevill of
Holt, Leics m. "-- Da of Sr Raphe Langford kt".
Glover's visitation is the 1584-5 one of Yorks edited by Joseph Foster
and on page 6 has a Robert Nevill of Ragnall who married an Alice
Bosvile of Chevell. From a date two generations later, my estimate was
that this marriage was around 1530 and had nothing to do with Longford or
Langford.
So where does this information in PA3 come from?
And in Glover's 1584-5 Visitation on the same page (upper left) it shows
that Ralph Nevill married "Eufemia fil. et her. Johis D'ne de
Clauvering." This is one of the many mistakes in visitation records
for early Nevilles: Euphemia was not the heir of anyone and further she
was not the daughter of John, lord of Clavering. John was her brother
and he had offspring, as did her other brother Alan, and Euphemia's
father was Roger FitzRoger, first baron FitzRoger, of Clavering. See
CP III, pp. 274-5. Even worse is that the College of Arms was still
propagating this error around eight years ago.
Worse! The line three generations above has Robert Nevill married to
"Margt. fil. Jo. Longvillers". So that is a source of that error!
> It's not immediately clear that any of the other sources in
> this line of RPA support this marriage or the parentage of the wife
> of Sir Robert Neville of Rolleston (except for Nichols' Leics, also
> cited, which as was previously pointed out simply cites the 1619
> visitation).
Interestingly the only Nevilles of Rolleston on pp. 21-2 of the 1619
Visitation are Thomas and William. No Robert, though Robert of Holt is
shown as father of Thomas of Rolleston.
Never trust visitations for further back than the grandfather of the
person interviewed. Can you honestly imagine the interviewee trotting
along to the herald with a mountain of deeds to make some proof of his
earlier ancestors? Let alone that he and the herald were able to give
good scholarly interpretation of same.
John Higgins
visitation of Yorkshire, becuase my page 6 is totally different than what
you quote. The first entry on the page is what's quoted by Richardson in
PA3: "Robert Nevill, esquier for ye body to King Henry V, m. Alice, dau. of
Nicholas Langforth [sic]". The other Nevill entries you mention don't show
up at all in my copy of this page.
The difference in editions is interesting but not really relevant, since I
agree with you about the hazards of depending on the visitation pedigrees.
But this appears to be the only one of Richardson's sources that even comes
close to tying Robert Nevill to Alice Longford - abd it certainly is not
definitive in identifying WHICH Nicholas Longford (if any) was her father.
I continue to agree with Rosie that more evidence is needed for this
connection. It's too bad that it's now been set in print, despite prior
warnings of its likely inaccuracy.