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Anne de Grosparmy (ép. Denis de Méhérenc)
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magnu...@yahoo.com
Apr 16, 2013, 3:30:17 PM4/16/13
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As promised, please excuse my clumsy English.
Jean Bunot
The 1523 Bayeux maintenue for the de Méhérenc family, along with later ones, mentions the marriage contract of Denis de Méhérenc, seigneur des Londes, on July 21 1470, with "d(amoise)lle Anne de Grosparmy, fille de n(oble) h(omme) Jean de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Taisson, Colins et Graimbosc".
Denis de Méhérenc was remarried, before 1506, with Catherine Le François, a fact confirm in the remarquable Histoire de Trévières by Edmond de Laheudrie, who works with original documents :
"marié, une première fois, à Anne de Grosparmy, il avait, en secondes noces, avant 1506, honoré de son lit Catherine Le François, fille de Richard, Éc(uyer), seigneur du Port, et veuve de Sébastien de Mauny, sieur de Laubel"
So a marriage in 1506 for Denis et Anne is out of the question. We remains with the contract marriage of 1470.
But before we can evaluate the exact place of Anne within the lineage, we have to establish the family genealogy itself.
The genealogy of the de Grosparmy family, although ancient, rich in holdings and well connected, remains unfortunately very squetchy. Most probably because it became extinct before the earliest maintenues actually took place. There is some secundary literature about them but those studies - inconsistent in quality and seriousness - are rather contributing to the confusion, which is increased by the presence in documentation of many near contemporary Jean de Grosparmy.
Let us go back to what is actually proven according to original documents.
The family entered history with Raoul de Grosparmy (+ 10.8.1270) who was successively bishop of Évreux, cardinal and papal legate, counsillor of the king and chancelor of France. Later the family rose to real proeminence in early 15th century when it acquired the baronnie de Flers and the seigneurie de Beuville.
According to most secundary sources in genealogical/historical literature, the heiress of Flers, Denise de Tournebu, was married in 1404 with Raoul de Grosparmy. We will see it is not exactly the case.
An authentic notaried document of 1451, a Grosparmy family agreement concerning the devolution of the seigneurie de Thaon to the family de Mathan, sheds light on the actual lineage for that period over 3 generations :
"En 1451, devant les tabellions d'Estreham et Barville, un appointement est rapporté qui précise qu'entre Nicollas et Jehan de Grosparmy, éc(uye)rs, frères et héritiers de Jehan de Grosparmy l'aîné, et de demoiselle Jehanne de Grosparmy fille et seule héritière de feu Jehan de Grosparmy le jeune, d'autre part, de la succession de Mess(ire) Hue de Grosparmy, chevalier, sieur de Beuville et de d(emois)elle Denise de Tournebu, par lequel demeure audit Raoul de Mathan et sa dite femme (Jehanne de Grosparmy), pour leur part dans la succession, le fief, terre et sieurie de Thaon, avec d'autres rentes et choses".
We find also the couple Hue de Grosparmy-Denise de Tournebu in the Tournebu archives.
So we have a Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville (not Raoul), married in 1404 to Denise de Tournebu. They have two sons, both named Jean, the Eldest and the younger. Although far from being general, it is a custom peculiar to lower-Normandie nobility to name several children with the same christian between 13th-16th centuries.
Jean l'Aîné de Grosparmy, still alive in 1451, is mentioned as holding Beuville in 1453 :
"Jean de Grosparmy (...) tient, en 1453, de la baronnie de Douvres, par foi et hommage noblement et franchement un fief de chevalier entier assis à Beuville, et en doit 15 livres tournois de rentes par chacun an"
Eldest son of Hue de Grosparmy and Denise de Tournebu (marriage 1404), Jean l'Aîné was himself logically married around 1430. Considering he was seigneur de Beuville (like his father) and married circa 1430, it becomes easy to identify him with the father of Anne de Grosparmy, herself married in 1470 and said to be d/o a Jean, seigneur de Beuville.
However, the maintenue conspicuously does not mention the important baronnie de Flers. I think it can be explained by the fact that Flers was occupied by the English for most of the life time of Jean l'Aîné (at least between 1425/1450) following an episod of the 100 years war. Also Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson and most of the others estates were situated in Bessin (Calvados today) but Flers was located more to the South in Mortainais (Orne today). An important distance considering medieval standards. So maybe the agreement was more concerned with local holdings and relations (around Bayeux).
The agreement established also without a doubt that the seigneurs de Beuville and the later barons de Flers belong to the same branch of the Grosparmy family. The de Grosparmy become easier to follow with the Nicolas mentioned in the agreement who's family and descendants are fairly well documented. So using the regular transmission of the fiefs, the 1451 agreement along with published materials for the later generations we can attempt a reconstruct of the family three :
Raoul de Grosparmy
ép. c. 1370, Ne... de Beuville (probablement fille de Hue, seigneur de Beuville et de Fontenay-l'Abbaye = Fontenay-le-Tesson)
1 Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville et de Thaon
ép. 1404, Denise de Tournebu, dame de Flers
1.1 Jean de Grosparmy, l'Aîné, sgr de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq, baron de Flers (1451/1453)
ép. c. 1430, Ne...
1.1.1 Nicolas de Grosparmy, baron de Flers, seigneur de Benneville et Beuville (1451)
ép. c. 1450, Marie de Reux
1.1.1.1 Jean de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1509)
ép. c. 1490, Françoise de Montereau (citée veuve de Jean en 1509)
1.1.1.1.1 François de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1520)
1.1.1.1.2 Guillaume de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (cité 1521/+ avant 1527)
1.1.1.1.3 Nicolas de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1541)
ép. c. 1530, Jacqueline de Sillans (citée 1541/1543/1546/1547)
1.1.1.1.3.1 Anne de Grosparmy, dame de Flers (née 1536)
ép. 1546, Jean de Pellevé
1.1.1.1.3.2 Jeanne de Grosparmy, dame de Flers (née en 1541)
ép. 1547, Henri de Pellevé
1.1.1.1.4 Étienne de Grosparmy, protonotaire apostolique
1.1.1.2 Marthurin de Grosparmy
1.1.1.3 Guillaume de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq (1476/1502)
ép. Jeanne de Baillehache (1476)
1.1.1.3.1 Guillaume de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson, Grimbosq et Montreuil-en-Auge (cité 1547 en tant que cousin germain du père d'Anne et Jeanne de Grosparmy, héritières de Flers)
ép. Ne...
1.1.1.3.1.1 (probablement) Guillemette de Grosparmy
ép. 1527, Jacques de Baudre
1.1.1.4 Guillemette de Grosparmy (attestée soeur de Jean et Guillaume)
ép. 1496, Germain de Grimouville
1.1.2 Jean de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, capitaine des francs archers du bailliage de Caen (1451/1470)
1.1.3 Anne de Grosparmy (dite fille de Jean, seigneur de Beuville, de Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq)
ép. 1470, Denis de Méhérenc, seigneur des Londes
1.1.4 (probablement) Gillette de Grosparmy
ép. c. 1455, Guérin Ier du Fresne
1.2 Jean de Grosparmy, le Jeune (+ avant 1451)
ép. c. 1430, Ne...
1.2.1 Jeanne de Grosparmy, dame de Thaon (1451)
ép. c. 1450, Raoul de Mathan, seigneur de Graye (1450/1493)
1.2.1.1 Jacques de Mathan, seigneur de Thaon (1477/1503)
ép. 1477, Marguerite de Reviers
2 Jeanne de Grosparmy (dite fille de Raoul)
ép. c. 1390, Jean de La Haye, seigneur du Bouillon
-------------------------------------------------------------
The ancestry of Denise de Tournebu is well know and can be found everywhere including lines to Louis VI de France et Henri Beauclerc d'Angleterre.
1. Denise de Tournebu, dame de Flers, ép. 1404, Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville
2. Guillaume III de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf et de Blangy
3. ép. 23.3.1369 (cm), Marie Paynel, dame de Beaumesnil, de Milly-la-Forêt et de Flers
4. Jean de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf (1372)
6. Guillaume Paynel, seigneur de Milly-la-Forêt et de Concressault
7. ép. c. 1351, Marie d'Harcourt, dame de Beaumesnil et de Flers
8. Guillaume II de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf
12. Olivier III Paynel, baron de Moyon et de La Haye-Pesnel
13. ép. 1333, Isabelle de Meulan, dame de Milly-la-Forêt, de Maule et de Concressault (+ 1407)
14. Robert IV d'Harcourt, seigneur de Beaumesnil, de Bullou, de Gâprée et de Flers (+ 1396)
15. ép. Marguerite Mauvoisin
Sources : Maintenues de noblesse for Bayeux 1523, 1540, 1598; Mémoire pour service à l'état historique et géographique du diocèse de Bayeux; Histoire de Trévières by Edmond de Laheudrie; Histoire de Flers, ses seigneurs et son industrie by Hector de La Ferrière; Histoire généalogique de la maison et baronnie de Tournebu d'après les archives inédites de cette famille by Charles Fierville; Chrysopoeia, vol. 4; blog Noblesse normande by Sophie Demeautis, article Famille de Mathan by Christiane Couillard and others sources mentioned for de Méhérenc family in other posts.
Jean Bunot
The 1523 Bayeux maintenue for the de Méhérenc family, along with later ones, mentions the marriage contract of Denis de Méhérenc, seigneur des Londes, on July 21 1470, with "d(amoise)lle Anne de Grosparmy, fille de n(oble) h(omme) Jean de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Taisson, Colins et Graimbosc".
Denis de Méhérenc was remarried, before 1506, with Catherine Le François, a fact confirm in the remarquable Histoire de Trévières by Edmond de Laheudrie, who works with original documents :
"marié, une première fois, à Anne de Grosparmy, il avait, en secondes noces, avant 1506, honoré de son lit Catherine Le François, fille de Richard, Éc(uyer), seigneur du Port, et veuve de Sébastien de Mauny, sieur de Laubel"
So a marriage in 1506 for Denis et Anne is out of the question. We remains with the contract marriage of 1470.
But before we can evaluate the exact place of Anne within the lineage, we have to establish the family genealogy itself.
The genealogy of the de Grosparmy family, although ancient, rich in holdings and well connected, remains unfortunately very squetchy. Most probably because it became extinct before the earliest maintenues actually took place. There is some secundary literature about them but those studies - inconsistent in quality and seriousness - are rather contributing to the confusion, which is increased by the presence in documentation of many near contemporary Jean de Grosparmy.
Let us go back to what is actually proven according to original documents.
The family entered history with Raoul de Grosparmy (+ 10.8.1270) who was successively bishop of Évreux, cardinal and papal legate, counsillor of the king and chancelor of France. Later the family rose to real proeminence in early 15th century when it acquired the baronnie de Flers and the seigneurie de Beuville.
According to most secundary sources in genealogical/historical literature, the heiress of Flers, Denise de Tournebu, was married in 1404 with Raoul de Grosparmy. We will see it is not exactly the case.
An authentic notaried document of 1451, a Grosparmy family agreement concerning the devolution of the seigneurie de Thaon to the family de Mathan, sheds light on the actual lineage for that period over 3 generations :
"En 1451, devant les tabellions d'Estreham et Barville, un appointement est rapporté qui précise qu'entre Nicollas et Jehan de Grosparmy, éc(uye)rs, frères et héritiers de Jehan de Grosparmy l'aîné, et de demoiselle Jehanne de Grosparmy fille et seule héritière de feu Jehan de Grosparmy le jeune, d'autre part, de la succession de Mess(ire) Hue de Grosparmy, chevalier, sieur de Beuville et de d(emois)elle Denise de Tournebu, par lequel demeure audit Raoul de Mathan et sa dite femme (Jehanne de Grosparmy), pour leur part dans la succession, le fief, terre et sieurie de Thaon, avec d'autres rentes et choses".
We find also the couple Hue de Grosparmy-Denise de Tournebu in the Tournebu archives.
So we have a Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville (not Raoul), married in 1404 to Denise de Tournebu. They have two sons, both named Jean, the Eldest and the younger. Although far from being general, it is a custom peculiar to lower-Normandie nobility to name several children with the same christian between 13th-16th centuries.
Jean l'Aîné de Grosparmy, still alive in 1451, is mentioned as holding Beuville in 1453 :
"Jean de Grosparmy (...) tient, en 1453, de la baronnie de Douvres, par foi et hommage noblement et franchement un fief de chevalier entier assis à Beuville, et en doit 15 livres tournois de rentes par chacun an"
Eldest son of Hue de Grosparmy and Denise de Tournebu (marriage 1404), Jean l'Aîné was himself logically married around 1430. Considering he was seigneur de Beuville (like his father) and married circa 1430, it becomes easy to identify him with the father of Anne de Grosparmy, herself married in 1470 and said to be d/o a Jean, seigneur de Beuville.
However, the maintenue conspicuously does not mention the important baronnie de Flers. I think it can be explained by the fact that Flers was occupied by the English for most of the life time of Jean l'Aîné (at least between 1425/1450) following an episod of the 100 years war. Also Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson and most of the others estates were situated in Bessin (Calvados today) but Flers was located more to the South in Mortainais (Orne today). An important distance considering medieval standards. So maybe the agreement was more concerned with local holdings and relations (around Bayeux).
The agreement established also without a doubt that the seigneurs de Beuville and the later barons de Flers belong to the same branch of the Grosparmy family. The de Grosparmy become easier to follow with the Nicolas mentioned in the agreement who's family and descendants are fairly well documented. So using the regular transmission of the fiefs, the 1451 agreement along with published materials for the later generations we can attempt a reconstruct of the family three :
Raoul de Grosparmy
ép. c. 1370, Ne... de Beuville (probablement fille de Hue, seigneur de Beuville et de Fontenay-l'Abbaye = Fontenay-le-Tesson)
1 Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville et de Thaon
ép. 1404, Denise de Tournebu, dame de Flers
1.1 Jean de Grosparmy, l'Aîné, sgr de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq, baron de Flers (1451/1453)
ép. c. 1430, Ne...
1.1.1 Nicolas de Grosparmy, baron de Flers, seigneur de Benneville et Beuville (1451)
ép. c. 1450, Marie de Reux
1.1.1.1 Jean de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1509)
ép. c. 1490, Françoise de Montereau (citée veuve de Jean en 1509)
1.1.1.1.1 François de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1520)
1.1.1.1.2 Guillaume de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (cité 1521/+ avant 1527)
1.1.1.1.3 Nicolas de Grosparmy, baron de Flers (+ 1541)
ép. c. 1530, Jacqueline de Sillans (citée 1541/1543/1546/1547)
1.1.1.1.3.1 Anne de Grosparmy, dame de Flers (née 1536)
ép. 1546, Jean de Pellevé
1.1.1.1.3.2 Jeanne de Grosparmy, dame de Flers (née en 1541)
ép. 1547, Henri de Pellevé
1.1.1.1.4 Étienne de Grosparmy, protonotaire apostolique
1.1.1.2 Marthurin de Grosparmy
1.1.1.3 Guillaume de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq (1476/1502)
ép. Jeanne de Baillehache (1476)
1.1.1.3.1 Guillaume de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, Fontenay-le-Tesson, Grimbosq et Montreuil-en-Auge (cité 1547 en tant que cousin germain du père d'Anne et Jeanne de Grosparmy, héritières de Flers)
ép. Ne...
1.1.1.3.1.1 (probablement) Guillemette de Grosparmy
ép. 1527, Jacques de Baudre
1.1.1.4 Guillemette de Grosparmy (attestée soeur de Jean et Guillaume)
ép. 1496, Germain de Grimouville
1.1.2 Jean de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville, capitaine des francs archers du bailliage de Caen (1451/1470)
1.1.3 Anne de Grosparmy (dite fille de Jean, seigneur de Beuville, de Fontenay-le-Tesson et Grimbosq)
ép. 1470, Denis de Méhérenc, seigneur des Londes
1.1.4 (probablement) Gillette de Grosparmy
ép. c. 1455, Guérin Ier du Fresne
1.2 Jean de Grosparmy, le Jeune (+ avant 1451)
ép. c. 1430, Ne...
1.2.1 Jeanne de Grosparmy, dame de Thaon (1451)
ép. c. 1450, Raoul de Mathan, seigneur de Graye (1450/1493)
1.2.1.1 Jacques de Mathan, seigneur de Thaon (1477/1503)
ép. 1477, Marguerite de Reviers
2 Jeanne de Grosparmy (dite fille de Raoul)
ép. c. 1390, Jean de La Haye, seigneur du Bouillon
-------------------------------------------------------------
The ancestry of Denise de Tournebu is well know and can be found everywhere including lines to Louis VI de France et Henri Beauclerc d'Angleterre.
1. Denise de Tournebu, dame de Flers, ép. 1404, Hue de Grosparmy, seigneur de Beuville
2. Guillaume III de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf et de Blangy
3. ép. 23.3.1369 (cm), Marie Paynel, dame de Beaumesnil, de Milly-la-Forêt et de Flers
4. Jean de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf (1372)
6. Guillaume Paynel, seigneur de Milly-la-Forêt et de Concressault
7. ép. c. 1351, Marie d'Harcourt, dame de Beaumesnil et de Flers
8. Guillaume II de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf
12. Olivier III Paynel, baron de Moyon et de La Haye-Pesnel
13. ép. 1333, Isabelle de Meulan, dame de Milly-la-Forêt, de Maule et de Concressault (+ 1407)
14. Robert IV d'Harcourt, seigneur de Beaumesnil, de Bullou, de Gâprée et de Flers (+ 1396)
15. ép. Marguerite Mauvoisin
Sources : Maintenues de noblesse for Bayeux 1523, 1540, 1598; Mémoire pour service à l'état historique et géographique du diocèse de Bayeux; Histoire de Trévières by Edmond de Laheudrie; Histoire de Flers, ses seigneurs et son industrie by Hector de La Ferrière; Histoire généalogique de la maison et baronnie de Tournebu d'après les archives inédites de cette famille by Charles Fierville; Chrysopoeia, vol. 4; blog Noblesse normande by Sophie Demeautis, article Famille de Mathan by Christiane Couillard and others sources mentioned for de Méhérenc family in other posts.
J Cook
Apr 16, 2013, 5:59:24 PM4/16/13
to
king as King Fernando III of Castille, died 1252.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00029060&tree=LEO
magnu...@yahoo.com
Apr 16, 2013, 7:09:47 PM4/16/13
to
> king as King Fernando III of Castille, died 1252.
>
>
>
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00029060&tree=LEO
The other good royal line is :
Louis VI, roi de France
ép. 1115
Adélaïde de Savoie
Robert, comte de Dreux
ép. c. 1144
Hedwige de Salisbury
Alix de Dreux
ép. c. 1177
Raoul, comte de Soissons
Aliénor de Soissons
ép. c. 1214
Étienne de Sancerre, seigneur de Saint-Brisson-sur-Loire, de Charenton-du-Cher, de Châtillon-sur-Loing, de La Loupe, de Marchéville, de Concressault et d'Espiennes
Comtesse de Sancerre, dame de Marchéville, de Concressault et d'Esprennes
ép. 1239
Adam, vicomte de Melun
Aliénor de Melun, dame de Concressault
ép. c. 1255
Gauthier III de Villebéon, seigneur de Tournenfuye
Marguerite de Villebeon, dame de Tournenfuye et de Concressault
ép. c. 1275
Thibaut, seigneur de Bommiers, de Blaison, de Mirebeau et de Montfaucon
Marguerite de Bommiers, dame de Blaison, de Mirebeau, de Montfaucon et de Concressault
ép. 1293
Jean, seigneur de Bouville, de Farcheville et Milly-la-Forêt
Jeanne de Bouville, dame de Milly-la-Forêt et de Concressault
ép. c. 1315
Waleran de Meulan, baron du Neubourg, de La Queuë et de Gournay
Isabelle de Meulan, dame de Milly-la-Forêt, de Maule et Concressault
ép. c. 1333
Olivier III Paynel, baron de Moyon et de La Haye-Pesnel
Guillaume Paynel, seigneur de Milly-la-Forêt et de Concressault
ép. c. 1351
Marie d'Harcourt, dame de Beaumesnil et de Flers
Marie Paynel, dame de Beaumesnil, de Milly-la-Forêt et de Flers
ép. 1369
Guillaume III de Tournebu, seigneur de Marbeuf et Blangy
Denise de Tournebu, dame de Flers
joe...@gmail.com
Apr 16, 2013, 8:20:25 PM4/16/13
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:09:47 PM UTC-4, magnu...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > king as King Fernando III of Castille, died 1252.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00029060&tree=LEO
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, I am aware of that connection but I believe Marguerite Mauvoisin to be d/o Guy VI rather than Guy VII for chronological raisons.
That I don't agree with. Guy VII's great-grandparents were born as early as the 1210s. These would have to be some long generations for most of his ancestors to fit in the earlier generation.
> > king as King Fernando III of Castille, died 1252.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00029060&tree=LEO
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, I am aware of that connection but I believe Marguerite Mauvoisin to be d/o Guy VI rather than Guy VII for chronological raisons.
magnu...@yahoo.com
Apr 16, 2013, 9:32:51 PM4/16/13
to
>
> That I don't agree with. Guy VII's great-grandparents were born as early as the 1210s. These would have to be some long generations for most of his ancestors to fit in the earlier generation.
Ferdinard de Castille, comte de Ponthieu
ép. 1256, Laure de Montfort
Jean de Ponthieu comte d'Aumâle
ép. c. 1275, Ide de Meulan
Laure de Ponthieu
ép. c. 1300, Guy VI Mauvoisin
Marguerite Mauvoisin
ép. c. 1330, Robert IV d'Harcourt
Marie d'Harcourt
ép. c. 1351, Guillaume Paynel
Marie Paynel
ép. 1369, Guillaume III de Tournebu
Jean Bunot
J Cook
Apr 16, 2013, 10:33:12 PM4/16/13
to
On Apr 16, 9:32 pm, magnusru...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > That I don't agree with. Guy VII's great-grandparents were born as early as the 1210s. These would have to be some long generations for most of his ancestors to fit in the earlier generation.
>
> Please consider this chronology :
>
> Ferdinard de Castille, comte de Ponthieu
> ép. 1256, Laure de Montfort
>
> Jean de Ponthieu comte d'Aumâle
> ép. c. 1275, Ide de Meulan
>
> Laure de Ponthieu
> ép. c. 1300, Guy VI Mauvoisin
>
> Marguerite Mauvoisin
> ép. c. 1330, Robert IV d'Harcourt
>
Perhaps you are right. I had an incorrect date in my notes that made
> > That I don't agree with. Guy VII's great-grandparents were born as early as the 1210s. These would have to be some long generations for most of his ancestors to fit in the earlier generation.
>
> Please consider this chronology :
>
> Ferdinard de Castille, comte de Ponthieu
> ép. 1256, Laure de Montfort
>
> Jean de Ponthieu comte d'Aumâle
> ép. c. 1275, Ide de Meulan
>
> Laure de Ponthieu
> ép. c. 1300, Guy VI Mauvoisin
>
> Marguerite Mauvoisin
> ép. c. 1330, Robert IV d'Harcourt
>
this impossible. Although most of the older sources identify her
parents as "Guy VI" + Roberte de Beaumez referencing maintenue of
July 16, 1668; And Jean le Carpenter makes the same identification in
"Historie de Cambray" published 1664.
magnu...@yahoo.com
Apr 17, 2013, 8:18:34 PM4/17/13
to
> Perhaps you are right. I had an incorrect date in my notes that made
>
> this impossible. Although most of the older sources identify her
>
> parents as "Guy VI" + Roberte de Beaumez referencing maintenue of
>
> July 16, 1668; And Jean le Carpenter makes the same identification in
>
> "Historie de Cambray" published 1664.
At this point, I do think the Ponthieu-Mauvoisin-Harcourt line is valide, more or less one generation.
The problem lies with the fact that we have several generations of Guy Mauvoisin, seigneur de Rosny from father to son, with then no dynastic number to help. Unless the mother is specified in a contemporary source, it is difficult to determine is she is d/o Guy VI or Guy VII. If no such documents are found then we are left with the chronology and then Guy VI would remain the only candidate possible.
I will verify on my side and try to disentangle the later sources which seem to be at variance which each other.
Jean
Bob Turcott
Apr 17, 2013, 9:23:30 PM4/17/13
to bunot jean, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This site of Suhard
http://noblessenormande.free.fr/index.php?2008/02/03/37-maison-suhard
a nice story of Suhard ancestors its getting better!!
Colin alias Colinet SUHARD du CHASTELLIER, qui suit en III, B - Marguerite alias Agnes SUHARD du Chastellier Unie avec Richard BOUCHARD de MEHERENC, fils de Regnouf ou Raoul BOUCHARD de MEHERENC. et de Henrye de THAON. Seigneur desdites seigneuries de son père, sieur des Londes (1406) demeurant à Les Oubeaux,il est cité en 1407 et 1411. Il est mort avant 1413 Trois enfants sont nés de cette union :o Guillaume de MEHERENC, uni le 11 décembre 1449 avec Marguerite de la HAYE de BOUILLON,
décédé en 1463,
o Guillaume le jeune DE MEHERENC,
o Richard DE MEHARENC,
magnu...@yahoo.com
Apr 19, 2013, 7:30:27 PM4/19/13
to
You might be right after all.
Roberte de Beaumetz seems in deed to be well attested as the mother of Marguerite Mauvoisin. For instance, in the well documented Histoire de la maison d'Harcourt by La Roque. So we would have to accepte a very thight chronology, maybe like this :
Ferdinard de Castille, comte de Ponthieu
ép. 1255, Laure de Montfort
Jean de Ponthieu comte d'Aumâle
ép. c. 1275, Ide de Meulan
Laure de Ponthieu
ép. c. 1295, Guy VI Mauvoisin
Guy VII Mauvoisin
ép. c. 1315, Roberte de Beaumetz
Marguerite Mauvoisin
ép. c. 1333, Robert IV d'Harcourt
Roberte de Beaumetz seems in deed to be well attested as the mother of Marguerite Mauvoisin. For instance, in the well documented Histoire de la maison d'Harcourt by La Roque. So we would have to accepte a very thight chronology, maybe like this :
Ferdinard de Castille, comte de Ponthieu
Jean de Ponthieu comte d'Aumâle
ép. c. 1275, Ide de Meulan
Laure de Ponthieu
Guy VII Mauvoisin
ép. c. 1315, Roberte de Beaumetz
Marguerite Mauvoisin
ép. c. 1333, Robert IV d'Harcourt
Mike Welch
Apr 19, 2013, 7:48:40 PM4/19/13
to
Mike Welch
Apr 19, 2013, 7:50:27 PM4/19/13
to
On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:30:17 PM UTC-7, magnu...@yahoo.com wrote:
Thank You for the update. I also noticed that you said that you are working on Jeanne Dupont. Will there also be a update on her as well.
Thank You
Mike
Bob Turcott
Apr 20, 2013, 12:34:06 AM4/20/13
to bunot jean, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Following my previous post, I would like to comment that knowone gets a "fief" for nothing..You either earned it or inherited it.
One must understand the Meherenc and a great number of all the familles that married themthey were all noble and many descending from Knights, such as the Suhard famille and evenRaoul Bouchard cited below, one can see how the Meherenc. looking at this it makes perfectsense.
Raoul bouchard vivait en l'an 1333 et prit part a la bataille de Cassel. ii recut le fief de meherenc en recompense des services qu'il avait rendus au Roy et rendit aveu a cause de celui-ci le 5eme jour d'avril de i'an 1372. Raoul bouchard lived in the year 1333, and took part in the battle of Cassel. II received the fief of meherenc reward for services he had rendered to the Roy and gave admission because of this 5th day of April, i' year 1372.
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
One must understand the Meherenc and a great number of all the familles that married themthey were all noble and many descending from Knights, such as the Suhard famille and evenRaoul Bouchard cited below, one can see how the Meherenc. looking at this it makes perfectsense.
Raoul bouchard vivait en l'an 1333 et prit part a la bataille de Cassel. ii recut le fief de meherenc en recompense des services qu'il avait rendus au Roy et rendit aveu a cause de celui-ci le 5eme jour d'avril de i'an 1372. Raoul bouchard lived in the year 1333, and took part in the battle of Cassel. II received the fief of meherenc reward for services he had rendered to the Roy and gave admission because of this 5th day of April, i' year 1372.
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Bob Turcott
Apr 20, 2013, 11:43:24 PM4/20/13
to bunot jean, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Jean
Looks like Guillaume de Meherenc and Marguerite de la Haye had 3 sons! Ill be dammed Jean!!! Plusother info for ref. Also good reading on the Dumont name Origin and Dupont famille will look at that as soon as I get a chance Jean bu the Dumont origine very ineresting i think there is a Seigneur Du Bienthat may also be related I think he was Jean Guerrys godfather.
Nicholas de MEHERENC, chevalier, duquel descendit Henry qui rendit aveu au Roy en 1372 a la Chambre des Comptes de Paris du fief de Meherenc, assis aux paroisses de revieres et de Mandeville, election de Bayeux, et Renouf, son frere, seigner des Londes. Ledit Henry, seigneur de Meherenc eut un fils Jean, seigneur dudit lieu et duquel sortit Gillette, dame de Meherenc qui epouse Jean du Boscq, ecuyer seigneur de Conches.
Regnouf ou Renaff Bouchard, frere de Nicholas, dit de Meherenc, qui vivait en 1392 avait epouse la demoiselle Henrye de Thaon, fille de Noble homme Jean de Thaon, seigneur, dudit lieu des Londes La Chapelle de St Thomas, martyr. Les Londes, vicomte de Bayeux, aveu du 2 mars 1381 par Renouf a cause de sa femme "Extrait des registres de la Chambre des Compes de Paris." Richard de Meherenc, ecuyer, Sieur des Londes, epose Marguerite Suhard, fille de seigner du Chastelier dont il eut Jeanne mariee a Raoul de Matan et un fils. Il fit aveu en juin 1400."Extraits des registres de la Chambre des Compes de Paris."
Guillaume de Meherenc, ecuyer, sieur des Londes, epose en 1445 Marguerite de la Haye, fille de noble homme Robert de La Haye, seigneur de Bouillon e de Robine des Roys. Il passa a la reformation de normandie en 1463, sous la Sergenerie de Cerisy, Diocese de Bayeux. Il eut trois fils, Guillaume, Renaud et Philippe. Ces tris enfants partagerent la succession de leur pere le 11 juin 1485. Ce partage est rapporte dans les preuves que fit Nicolas de Meherenc (mentionne plus loin) pour etre recu Chevalier de Malte.
Looks like Guillaume de Meherenc and Marguerite de la Haye had 3 sons! Ill be dammed Jean!!! Plusother info for ref. Also good reading on the Dumont name Origin and Dupont famille will look at that as soon as I get a chance Jean bu the Dumont origine very ineresting i think there is a Seigneur Du Bienthat may also be related I think he was Jean Guerrys godfather.
Nicholas de MEHERENC, chevalier, duquel descendit Henry qui rendit aveu au Roy en 1372 a la Chambre des Comptes de Paris du fief de Meherenc, assis aux paroisses de revieres et de Mandeville, election de Bayeux, et Renouf, son frere, seigner des Londes. Ledit Henry, seigneur de Meherenc eut un fils Jean, seigneur dudit lieu et duquel sortit Gillette, dame de Meherenc qui epouse Jean du Boscq, ecuyer seigneur de Conches.
Regnouf ou Renaff Bouchard, frere de Nicholas, dit de Meherenc, qui vivait en 1392 avait epouse la demoiselle Henrye de Thaon, fille de Noble homme Jean de Thaon, seigneur, dudit lieu des Londes La Chapelle de St Thomas, martyr. Les Londes, vicomte de Bayeux, aveu du 2 mars 1381 par Renouf a cause de sa femme "Extrait des registres de la Chambre des Compes de Paris." Richard de Meherenc, ecuyer, Sieur des Londes, epose Marguerite Suhard, fille de seigner du Chastelier dont il eut Jeanne mariee a Raoul de Matan et un fils. Il fit aveu en juin 1400."Extraits des registres de la Chambre des Compes de Paris."
Guillaume de Meherenc, ecuyer, sieur des Londes, epose en 1445 Marguerite de la Haye, fille de noble homme Robert de La Haye, seigneur de Bouillon e de Robine des Roys. Il passa a la reformation de normandie en 1463, sous la Sergenerie de Cerisy, Diocese de Bayeux. Il eut trois fils, Guillaume, Renaud et Philippe. Ces tris enfants partagerent la succession de leur pere le 11 juin 1485. Ce partage est rapporte dans les preuves que fit Nicolas de Meherenc (mentionne plus loin) pour etre recu Chevalier de Malte.
Bob Turcott
May 14, 2013, 6:18:38 AM5/14/13
to bunot jean, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
To all I found a nice book on line for Histoire de Flers, ses seigneurs, son industrie.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ylszwv1uKsUC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=histoire+de+flers+Grosparmy&source=bl&ots=JzQHQCvBJj&sig=3hnpz1GQ1S4ngm0vHLo-IH17Xwk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zpeEUcT0NMrB4AOW74HACQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=histoire%20de%20flers%20Grosparmy&f=false
I have a great amount of information to share, I will post it when I have time.
I have a lot of documents from France to read and translate then share..
Bob
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ylszwv1uKsUC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=histoire+de+flers+Grosparmy&source=bl&ots=JzQHQCvBJj&sig=3hnpz1GQ1S4ngm0vHLo-IH17Xwk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zpeEUcT0NMrB4AOW74HACQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=histoire%20de%20flers%20Grosparmy&f=false
I have a great amount of information to share, I will post it when I have time.
I have a lot of documents from France to read and translate then share..
Bob
Bob Turcott
May 24, 2013, 8:59:05 PM5/24/13
to bunot jean, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
To all an opinion about this blurb in french:
la famille de meherenc etant tombee en extinction de ligne masculine, l'heritiere de cette maison, afin d'en perpetuer le nom epousa un bouchard parcequ'il prendrait le nom de meherenc. laq meme tradition porte qu'un raol bouchard de meherenc se serait distingue a la bataille de bovines (1214) ou il fut tue en combattant chevaleureusement sous la banniere de mathieu second baron montmorency.
la famille de meherenc etant tombee en extinction de ligne masculine, l'heritiere de cette maison, afin d'en perpetuer le nom epousa un bouchard parcequ'il prendrait le nom de meherenc. laq meme tradition porte qu'un raol bouchard de meherenc se serait distingue a la bataille de bovines (1214) ou il fut tue en combattant chevaleureusement sous la banniere de mathieu second baron montmorency.
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