Dispensation for Robert Stewart (II of Scots) and Euphemia of Ross

[The...@aol.com]

Sunday, 27 November, 2005

Hello All,

In the recent past, Andrew B. W. MacEwen mentioned the lack of
sufficient evidence to identify Joanna, wife of Alexander the
Steward (d. 1283). The ‘traditional’ identification, as given in
Scots Peerage and those sources built upon it, state that ’ his
wife is said to have been Jean, daughter of James, Lord of
Bute.’[1], but no documentation is cited in SP. Andrew noted that
this alleged marriage was held to be the source of the Stewart
holdings in Bute and Arran, but is erroneous as these lands were
held in prior generations having nothing to do with the marriage
of Alexander.

One interesting piece of evidence he noted concerned certain
lands held by Alexander’s son James the Steward (d. 1309). This
pointed toward the possibility of her being of the Comyn family,
as the lands involved were held well before the confiscation of
Comyn lands under King Robert I.

I noted in a previous post the relationship between Robert II,
King of Scots (1371-1390) and his 2nd wife Euphemia of Ross (4th
degree of consanguinity), and the fact that the basis for this
relationship had not yet been uncovered [2]. Alexander the
Steward was born in 1214, and his son James born ca. 1243
according to the SP account; Joanna, wife of Alexander the
Steward, was (based on these dates) likely born say 1214-1224, and
if a Comyn she fits chronologically as a daughter of William
Comyn, Earl of Buchan (d. 1233) by his 2nd wife Marjory, Countess
of Buchan. If this conjecture is correct, the relationship
between Robert II and Euphemia of Ross would in fact be that of
the 4th degree, as follows:

[NOTE: the following chart is in part conjectural, and
in need of supporting documentation before being deemed
proven in full]

1) NN = William Comyn = 2) Marjory of
I E of Buchan I Buchan
__________I d. 1233 I_ _ _ _ _ _
I I
William = Jean Comyn Alexander = Joanna
E of Ross I the Steward I
I I
I I
William, E of Ross (d. 1323) James the Steward
I _________I
I I
Hugh, E of Ross = 2) Margaret Walter = Marjory
d. 1333 I Graham Stewart I Bruce
I I
I ____________I
I I
2) Euphemia = Robert (II) Stewart
of Ross K of Scots

There is little onomastic support for this conjecture.
William Comyn and Marjory of Buchan had a daughter Elizabeth, wife
of William, Earl of Mar: Alexander the Steward and his wife Joanna
had a daughter Elizabeth, wife of Sir William Douglas and mother
of Sir James ‘the Good’ Douglas. Beyond this, no known names of
the issue of Alexander the Steward provide any clues to the
possible identity of their mother or her family.

Additional documentation is being sought, and there are known
gaps in the ancestry of Robert II and Euphemia of Ross (see AT for
each, below). However, the relationship as conjectured above
appears reasonable: if other relationships between descendants of
the Stewart and Comyn families are noted, they will be posted to
the list as well (as will any negative evidence that may be
found).

Should anyone have relevant documentation, comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.

Cheers,

John *

AT of Robert II

1 Robert II, King of Scots 1371-1390

2 Walter Stewart.
3 Marjory Bruce.

4 James le Steward.
5 Giles (Egidia) de Burgh.
6 Robert I 'the Bruce', King of Scots 1306-1329
7 Isabel of Mar.

8 Alexander le Steward.
9 Joanna.
10 Walter de Burgh, Earl of Ulster.
11 Aveline FitzJohn.
12 Robert de Brus, Earl of Carrick de jure uxoris; Lord Brus.
13 Marjorie of Carrick, Countess of Carrick suo jure.
14 Donald of Mar, Earl of Mar.
15 Elen.

16 Walter le Steward, seneschal and justiciar of Scotia.
17 B____.
18 [conjectured] William Comyn, Earl of Buchan (de jure uxoris).
19 [conjectured] Marjory of Buchan, Countess of Buchan.
20 Richard de Burgh, Lord of Connaught, Justiciar of Ireland
21 Giles (Egidia) de Lacy.
22 Sir John FitzGeoffrey, Justiciar of Ireland.
23 Isabel le Bigod.
24 Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale.
25 Isabel de Clare.
26 Neil of Carrick, Earl of Carrick.
27 Isabella.
28 William of Mar, Earl of Mar - 1281.
29 Elizabeth Comyn.

AT of Euphemia of Ross

1 Euphemia of Ross.
m. 1) John Randolph, Earl of Moray
2) Robert Stewart, Earl of Strathearn (Robert II of Scots)

2 Hugh of Ross, Earl of Ross 1323-1333
3 Margaret de Graham.

4 William of Ross, Earl of Ross 1274-1323.
5 Euphemia.
6 Sir David de Graham.
7 NN.

8 William of Ross, Earl of Ross 1251-1276.
9 Jean Comyn.
10 NN
11 NN
12 Sir Patrick de Graham.
13 Annabela of Strathearn.
14 NN
15 NN

16 Fearchar 'mac an t-sacairt', Earl of Ross ca 1226-1251.
17 NN de Brus.
18 William Comyn, Earl of Buchan (de jure uxoris).
19 Sarah 'filia Roberti'.
20 NN
21 NN
22 NN
23 NN
24 Sir David de Graham.
25 Agnes.
26 Robert of Strathearn, Earl of Strathearn 1223-1242.
27 NN de Moravia.

NOTES

[1] SP I:13.

[2] See thread entitled <Dispensation for Robert Stewart (II of
Scots) and Euphemia of Ross>, SGM, 8 Nov 2003. Following is
the text of the dispensation for the marriage of Robert
Stewart, Steward of Scotland and Euphemia, Countess of Moray,
dated Avignon, 6 nones Maii 3 Innocent VI (2 May 1355):

' INNOCENTIUS Episcopus, Servus Servor. Dei, Venerabili
Fratri.... Episcopo Glasguen. Salutem, &c.
EXHIBITE nobis pro parte dilecti filii nobilis viri Roberti
Stivardi Senescalli Scocie, ac dilecte in Xsto, filie nobilis
mulieris Eufemie, Comitisse Moravie, relicte quondam Johannis
Comitis Moravie vidue Glasguen. et Moravien. Dioc. petitionis
series continebat, quod ipsi propter sedandas guerras,
discordias, et inimicitias inter ipsum Robertum et dilectum
filium nobilem virum Gulielmum Comitem Rossiae, Rossen
Dioc. dicte Eufemie fratrem, et alios ipsius Eufemie
consanguineos ex interfectione cujusdam nobilis, et aliis
de causis exortas tractatum habuerunt super matrimonio
inter se invicem contrahendo. Verum quia ipsi Robertus
et Eufemia quarto consanguinitatis, et ex eo tertio
affinitatis gradibus invicem se contigerunt; quod dicti
Robertus, et Johannes dum vivebant erant tertio
consanguinitatis gradu conjuncti, matrimonium hujusmodi
contrahere nequeunt dispensatione super hoc Apostolica
non obtenta, .... ' [Stuart, Genealogical History of the
Stewarts, pp. 420-421]

[3] SP I:13.

* John P. Ravilious

[wjho...@aol.com]

Yes John. I note for the prior wife of William Comyn (later Earl of Buchan jure uroxis) you have N.N. But what about this post where she is named Sarah FitzHugh d 1204 ?

Will Johnson

Subj: Re: Mar and Comyn
Date: 6/29/05 5:38:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: Jwc...@aol.com
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Dear Doug and Will,
AR 7 line 252 generation 30 says quoting SP IV : 8-10, SP V 576-578 and CP V:373 says that Donald I, Earl of Mar was made a knight in 1270 ; died shortly after 25 July 1297, William, 5th Earl of Mar died abt 1281, Elizabeth Comyn, Countess of Mar d 1267 was daughter of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan jure uxoris d 1233 by his 2nd wife Margaret / Marjorie, Countess of Buchan whom He married in abt 1212. Young`s 'The Comyns p 19 William was Justiciar of Scotland from 1205 until his death in 1233 and between 1205 and 1304 the Comyns held that office no fewer than 66 years See Alan Young`s Robert Bruce`s Rivals: the Comyns 1212- 1314 p 21. William had six children by Countess Margaret, Alexander 2nd (6th) Earl of Buchan, William, Fergus, Idonea , wife of Gilbert de la Haye, Agnes m Philip de Fedarg and Elizabeth, wife of William, Earl of Mar as well as five by his 1st wife Sarah Fitz hugh d 1204 CP II pp 374-375 , Richard, Walter who married Isabel , Countess of Mentieth and Lord !
of Badenoch ( which passed on his death sine prole in 1258 to Richard`s son John ), William (a cleric), Joan who married William, 2nd Earl of Ross and David who married Isabel de Valognes see Young`s The Comyns pp x and xi. Note Earl William was born probably before 1179 when his father Richard Comyn died. His mother Hextilda of Tynedale married 2nd Malcolm, Earl of Atholl (See Young pp 28-29)
Sincerely, James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA

-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:56:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
Subject: Dispensation for Robert Stewart (II of Scots) and Euphemia of Ross

Sunday, 27 November, 2005

Hello All,

In the recent past, Andrew B. W. MacEwen mentioned the lack of
sufficient evidence to identify Joanna, wife of Alexander the

Steward (d. 1283). The ?traditional? identification, as given in
Scots Peerage and those sources built upon it, state that ? his

wife is said to have been Jean, daughter of James, Lord of

Bute.?[1], but no documentation is cited in SP. Andrew noted that

this alleged marriage was held to be the source of the Stewart
holdings in Bute and Arran, but is erroneous as these lands were
held in prior generations having nothing to do with the marriage
of Alexander.

One interesting piece of evidence he noted concerned certain

lands held by Alexander?s son James the Steward (d. 1309). This

of Sir James ?the Good? Douglas. Beyond this, no known names of

Cheers,

John *

AT of Robert II

NOTES

[1] SP I:13.

[2] See thread entitled , SGM, 8 Nov 2003. Following is

[Claud...@aol.com]

Dear Will,

Here is proof from Bain:

Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties public
record office, London, Vol. I 1108-1272, edited by Joseph Bain, Edinburgh,
1881:

#318. 1201-1202.
Northamptonshire:---Simon de Pateshulle renders his account. New
Oblations:---Rolland of Galloway owes 500 marks for having a recognizance whether
Richard de Moreville father of his wife Elena, was seized of a knight's fee and
pertinents in Basiath for 15 days before the war began between king Henry the
father and king Henry the son. William Cumin accounts for 25 marks and a
palfrey for having to wife the younger daughter of Robert Fitz Hugh, with a
reasonable part of the frank tenement which was the said Robert's. He has paid into
the treasury 20 marks; and he owes 5 marks and a palfrey. [ Pipe Rolls, 3
John, Rot. 13].

Best Wishes,
MichaelAnne

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

Yes, in my haste I did not go back to my notes to extract the name
of Sarah for the first wife ("NN" in the chart) of William Comyn.
William married as ' .... his 1st wife Sarah, yr. da. and coh. of
Robert FitzHugh. ' [CP XI:143 note (e), cites Scots Peerage, vol. i, p.
505; Pipe Roll, 3 John, p. 183; 6 John, p. 140].

She was Sarah, daughter of Robert fitz Hugh, but whether she
should be called Sarah FitzHugh is a point of ongoing debate, on SGM
and elsewhere. Sarah "filia Roberti" is not so handy in English, but a
better representation of her name at the time: "Sarah FitzHugh" in the
pre-surname era technically means "Sarah son of Hugh", which clearly
she was not.

Cheers,

John

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John ~

This is a most Intereresting post. Keep up the good work.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website:www.royalancestry.net

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John,
If Alexander le Steward`s wife Joanna is indeed William
Comyn, 5th Earl of Buchan `s daughter by his 2nd wife Marjorie, Countess of Buchan.
How do You think the name James came into the Stewart family ?

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John,
I just read a post of yours from October 27, 2004 entitled
Euphemia, Countess of Ross (was Re: Magna Carta line of Eufemia) In It You
conjecture that Euphemia, wife of William, 3rd Earl of Ross was a daughter of
Roger fitz John of Warkworth and Isabel of Dunbar, whose brother Patrick, Earl
of Dunbar married Cecily filia Johani (apparently a sister of Isabel`s husband)
and had a daughter Euphemia who was married to Sir William Comyn of
Killbride, whose identity was proved through lawsuits of her aunt againest She and her
husband.

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear James,

I did make that conjecture, but have found nothing to substantiate
it to date.

My present theory (still in development) is that this Euphemia was
more likely a daughter of Sir Hugh de Abernethy (d. ca 1293) by an
unknown wife, prior to his marriage to Mary de Ergadia. This Euphemia
most likely has a descent from the Dunbars (and surely from an early de
Brus generation), but the unknowns abound. Perhaps Sir Hugh de
Abernethy married a Dunbar first......?

Would that this were helpful. Good luck, and good hunting, to
all.

Cheers,

John

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear James,

Probably by means other than osmosis........<g>

Honestly, that is unknown, but the "Seumas -> James" theorum of
the Bute marriage doesn't have any documentation to stand on. Perhaps
via the unknown mother of Alexander the Steward......

Cheers,

John

[Jwc...@aol.com]

Dear John,
Two major Questions to me concerning Alexander le Stewart`s
marriage to a daughter of William Comyn, Earl of Buchan are the undoubted
leaning of James le Stewart toward the Brus camp. As grandson of William and with
no apparent connection to the Brus family. that strikes me as very odd. Also
If William or Alexander Comyn had succeeded in marrying a daughter / sister
off to the Royal Steward it would have been talked about. So Beatrice /Bethoc
of Angus is out as Alexander`s mother ? perhaps his mother was Earl William`s
sister or a younger sister of Marjorie of Buchan, William Comyn`s 2nd wife.