Sir Walter Forrester of Torwood

[PeterWKuhlmann]

Stirnet.com, citing "The Forresters: A Lowland Clan and its Lairds" by
Colin D.I.G. Forrester, 1989 as its main source, records Agnes Graham,
a daughter of William 2nd Lord Graham, married to Sir Walter Forrester
of Torwood, and Gordon A. MacGregor, in his "Red Book of Perth -
Graham of Montrose" shows the same marriage. Stirnet.com shows a
second marriage to a daughter of Napier of Merchiston.
A document at the National Archives of Scotland, GD16/44/2, 2/10/1488
reads as follows: "Discharge by Duncan Forester of the Torwoud to Sir
James Ogilvy of Erlie, kt., of 20 merks Scots payable in terms of
contract of marriage between Walter Forrester, son of the said Duncan
and Janet the Graham, 'gud dochter' of the said Sir James. Sterling."
I could not find any NAS references for a spouse of Sir Walter
Forrester before or after this marriage contract, and I was unable to
find any posts here on the subject of Sir Walter.
Sir James Fergusson, in "Lowland Lairds" (2004) page 38, indicates he
was twice married, first to Agnes, a sister of the Earl of Montrose,
but does not name the second wife.
Would this be sufficient eveidence to conclude that Sir Walter
Forrester married first to Agnes Graham, daughter of William 2nd Lord
Graham, and secondly to Janet Graham, illegitimate daughter of Sir
James Ogilvy of Erlie? (and not to the daughter of Napier of
Merchiston?)

[Peter A. Kincaid]

These Forresters were also knows as of Skipinch,
and Garden. 'Gud dochter' is a daughter-in-law
not illegitimate daughter. This was James, Lord
Ogilvy (Ogilvie, Ogilby).

[PeterWKuhlmann]

On Feb 11, 11:03 am, "Peter A. Kincaid" <7kinc...@nb.sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> >Merchiston?)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks - I should have looked that up - the perils of assumptions.
That would mean that John Ogilvy of Airlie died before Oct 1488, in
the lifetime of his father.

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/11/2010 12:35:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kuhlma...@rogers.com writes:

> Thanks - I should have looked that up - the perils of assumptions.
> That would mean that John Ogilvy of Airlie died before Oct 1488, in
> the lifetime of his father.>>

I don't understand how that follows. Could you clarify that a bit? Why
would this document mean that John was dead?

[PeterWKuhlmann]

On Feb 11, 4:17 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/2010 12:35:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>

> kuhlmann3...@rogers.com writes:
> > Thanks - I should have looked that up - the perils of assumptions.
> > That would mean that John Ogilvy of Airlie died before Oct 1488, in
> > the lifetime of his father.>>
>
> I don't understand how that follows.  Could you clarify that a bit?  Why
> would this document mean that John was dead?

If I understand properly, John Ogilvy of Airlie was married to Janet
Graham (in order for her to be daughter-in-law of Sir James Ogilvy of
Airlie). The NAS document, dated 2/10/1488 is a contract for the
marriage of Janet Graham and Walter Forrester of Torwood, being done
by her father-in-law Sir James Ogilvy? Would that not mean that John
was deceased? ...Pete

[wjhonson]

Yes and no and yes and no again. Or something.

Laying aside whether or not "gud dochter" actually means "daughter in
law" or not, we must defer to The Complete Peerage which puts to rest
your belief that John was dead. He was the heir of his father, they
do not say apparent, so one could assume that he outlived him. At the
very least John was yet living in 1494 when he is not called Sir, and
in 1497 when he is.

Now how can we make Janet the *relative* of some kind to Sir James
Ogilvy of Airlie (not yet Baron) by 1488?

In the following way. James, married the mother of Janet. Janet was
his, as we would say today, STEP-daughter, but as they said then
"daughter [by virtue of the] or in law".

Step-daughters, step-sons were also then called "in laws", although we
stopped doing that at some point.

It is quite likely that John's first wife Mariot Somebody was Yet
living in 1488, and this is why James did not marry Janet to his own
son and heir. That would mean Janet had to marry him after her
marriage to Forrester, which still doesn't quite work does it?

James Ogilvy, 3rd Lord is supposed to be a son to this same Janet by
her marriage to John. In the original Complete Peerage, they stated
that John took his seat in Parliament in 1506, but in the later
edition (1910 ish) they did not so state, but did state that he was
living in 1494. Messy.

It's not obvious how to fix it. Perhaps there is yet another John
Ogilvy, who WAS knighted between 1494 and 1497, but is not THIS one.

Will Johnson

[wjhonson]

On Feb 11, 2:04 pm, PeterWKuhlmann <kuhlmann3...@rogers.com> wrote:

I have another solution.
That Jean Graham second wife of John Ogilvy, 2nd Lord Ogilvy of Airlie
was a different person from
"Janet" Graham, contracted to marry Walter Forrester in or by 1488.

Both daughters of William, 2nd Lord Graham by his wife Eleanor (Helen)
Douglas. William died in 1472 and she then married Sir James Ogilvy
by 1488.

Will

[PeterWKuhlmann]

> Will- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I did a number of google searches, and did not find anything to
support this - but is there any chance that "gud dochter" could mean
"god-daughter" ?

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

QUOTE

"Discharge by Duncan Forester of the Torwoud to Sir
James Ogilvy of Erlie, kt., of 20 merks Scots payable in terms of
contract of marriage between Walter Forrester, son of the said Duncan
and Janet the Graham, 'gud dochter' of the said Sir James. Sterling."

UNQUOTE

Guidsyre means grandfather, so might gud dochter not mean grand-
daughter?
As her grandfather Sir James would have the right status to pay her
husband's father 20 merks on 2nd October 1488? The chronology is
tight, but it often was at this period.

Sir James was married brfore 20 November 1486 to Helen Graham, and one
might wonder whether this was a grand-daughter of her, rather than of
Sir James, in which case the chronology would not necessarily be so
tight. His two known daughters were born to his probably third wife,
Janet Lyle.

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

That Ogilvie the grandfather(?) paid to the father of the bridegroom a
relatively small sum for a marriage contract at this status suggests
to me that either both the parties were under age, or that the two
older men were acting as a sort of "cautioner". As the refererence to
his marriage is to APS, it may be that Janet and Agnes were in some
way connected. I do not have a copy of APS (who has?) and whatever is
noted there is not included in RPS, the internet revision, so a visit
to a good library might be required. I wonder whether there had to be
a special dispensation, in which case it might be in the Vatican
Records, perhaps Bliss's transcriptions, or the later SHS ones, but I
don't have those either.

I wonder whether perhaps the marriage to Janet Graham never took place.

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I wonder whether the Helen Graham whom Sir James Ogilvie of Airlie
married might not have been the widow of William 2nd Lord Graham, and
so be Helen Douglas sister of 4th Earl of Angus. His son, John 2nd
Lord Ogilvie,was said to have married her daughter, Jean/Marion
Graham, and it would also explain a relationship to Janet Graham, if
she were another, unrecorded, daughter of William Graham and Helen.
Finally the APS reference, above, is quoted in SP as the source for
Agnes, listed as another daughter. Thus they were all step-siblings.

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

The reference in APS is to the reduction of the forfeiture of the Earl
of Huntly. The RPS address is http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1567/4/28
It says, near the bottom,

"Agnes Grahame, sister to the said umquhile Lord Grahame and spouse to
the said umquhile Schir Walter Forrestar of Carden, knycht, ane, Agnes
Forrester, hir dochter, twa, and the said justice clerk, hir sone, the
thrid"

The Justice Clerk was Sir John Bellenden of Auchnoull, knight, and we
find from SP that he was married to a previously unidentified Agnes
Forrester. This suggests that Sir Walter Forrester of Garden's heir,
James was not his son by this marriage, though we know that Sir Walter
was the "abavus" of Sir James Forrester of Garden (ca 1570 - after
1622) as proved in an Inquisition of 26 Oct1603. He also had a
daughter Janet married to Robert Bruce of Airth and another Marion,
married to Sir Henry Shaw of Cambusmore and then to James Campbell of
Lawers (all SP), so they also must have been by another marriage. A
sketch of the pedigree:

Robert Forrester of Torwood, d bef 1469
|
1 Alexander m Agnes Livingstone, charter of Torwood to his brother
Malcolm 1469
2 Malcolm
|
1 David s&ha in 1476
2 Henry s&ha in 1488, mentioned in 1488 deed below

Sir Duncan of Skipinch, Compotorum Rotulator 1495/6, and prob
1491-1499, probably a younger son of Robert Forrester of Torwood, had
Torwood in 1488 on resignation of Malcolm: a witness in 1503 with his
son as "Dunc. Forestare de Garden, Waltero Forstare de Torwod,
militibus" he had a brother unnamed who had a son Robert of
Boquhane, to whom Duncan (below) was heir in 1602.
|
Sir Walter of Carden & Torwood
|
James, alive & widowed in 1528, when he conveyed the lands to his son,
reserving the life-rent
|
David (son and heir apparent in RMS iii, 679 of 1528) d 1575
|
Alexander, heir to his father in 1575, will proved 1599
|
Sir James married Margaret d Lord Fleming 1588 alive in 1622, lost
Garden for debt 1609x 1615. He had an elder brother Duncan died, pres
sine prole, 1602x03
|
Alexander dvp. He had an elder brother David, m Eliz d James
Sandilands of Cruvie, d pres s p.
|
James heir to his aunt Margaret widow of Sir William Ross of Murestoun
(10th Lord Ross) 30 Oct 1635
|
what happened then?

[Peter A. Kincaid]

The impression with the lineage below is that
Alexander (who m. Agnes Livingstone) was the
heir and that he died without issue. I have only
seen records where he was simply noted as
son of Robert Forrester of Torwood. Alexander
became of Erthbeg and his son and heir was
Thomas Forrester of Erthbeg and later Crannock
(see NAS, GD17/18 where Thomas is noted as
son and heir of Alexander).

Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellf...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: Sir Walter Forrester of Torwood

[snip]

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Erthbeg being Little Airth, was he a co-parcener in the lands of Airth?

[wjhonson]

On Feb 14, 12:36 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

What is your authority for merging together Jean and Marion into one
woman? CP states that he married twice and Marion's origin is not
known while Jean they say was the mother of his heir James.

Will Johnson

[wjhonson]

On Feb 15, 1:20 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

<maxwellfindla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> |
> Sir James married Margaret d Lord Fleming 1588 alive in 1622, lost
> Garden for debt 1609x 1615.  He had an elder brother Duncan died, pres
> sine prole, 1602x03
> |
> Alexander dvp.  He had an elder brother David, m Eliz d James
> Sandilands of Cruvie, d pres s p.
> |
> James heir to his aunt Margaret widow of Sir William Ross of Murestoun
> (10th Lord Ross) 30 Oct 1635
> |
> what happened then?

You might be interested to know that Sir James (this one you have
living in 1609x1615) was in fact yet living in 1629 when he was a
prisoner in Stirling Castle.

Will Johnson

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I just copied what is in SP - it didn't seem important what the name
was, for my purposes.

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Could you please give a source for this. Many thanks

Alex

[James Hogg]

http://www.archive.org/stream/landslairdsoflar00gibs/landslairdsoflar00gibs_djvu.txt

--
James

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/16/2010 1:30:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
maxwellf...@hotmail.com writes:

> I just copied what is in SP - it didn't seem important what the name
> was, for my purposes.>>

My point was that you made her one woman, when CP makes her two women.
It wasn't about what her name was, but that she was two.
Does SP make CP's two women into one woman?

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Without referring to CP, I don't know, but SP was earlier than CP, so
generally, if CP differs, it is more likely to be right.

[wjhonson]

On Feb 16, 1:29 am, Alex Maxwell Findlater

This is my source Alex

http://books.google.com/books?id=2IQUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA139#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=2IQUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA145#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Lands and lairds of Larbert and Dunipace parishes
By John Charles Gibson

Will