Ancestry of Edward Howell, of Southampton, Long Island (died 1655)
Douglas Richardson
The royal descent set forth below for the immigrant, Edward Howell
(1584-1655), of Southampton, Long Island has been a work in progress
for many years. The line, albeit in a different form, was originally
brought to my attention by the late Dr. David Faris, who was a lineal
descendant of Edward Howell. From the start, a variety of problems
were encountered in attempting to document the line. While not every
single problem has been resolved, the evidence seems to clearly
indicate that Edward Howell's Dormer ancestors were descended from
Ralph de Arundel, an illegitimate son of a member of the noble house
of Arundel. For the reasons stated below, I believe Ralph de Arundel
was an illegitimate son of Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and
Surrey (died 1376).
The unique arms of Ralph de Arundel are discussed in various heraldic
sources, among them Montague, Guide to the Study of Heraldry (1840):
43–44. This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=mp8KFMcjjyMC&pg=PA44&dq=%22Radulphus+de+Arundel%22#PPA43,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=mp8KFMcjjyMC&pg=PA44&dq=%22Radulphus+de+Arundel%22#PPA44,M1
The earlier generations set in skeletal pedigree below are covered by
my book, Plantagenet Ancestry (2004).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
HOWELL
JOHN OF ENGLAND, King of England, by a mistress, CLEMENCE _____.
JOAN OF ENGLAND, married LLYWELYN AP IORWERTH, Prince of North Wales.
GWLADUS DDU OF WALES, married RALPH DE MORTIMER, of Wigmore,
Herefordshire.
ROGER DE MORTIMER, Knt., of Wigmore, Herefordshire, married MAUD DE
BREWES.
ISABEL DE MORTIMER, married JOHN FITZ ALAN, of Arundel, Sussex, Clun
and Oswestry, Shropshire.
RICHARD FITZ ALAN (or DE ARUNDEL), Knt., Earl of Arundel, married
ALICE (or ALASIA) DE SALUZZO.
EDMUND DE ARUNDEL (or FITZ ALAN), Knt., Earl of Arundel, married ALICE
DE WARENNE (desc. Geoffrey Plantagenet).
RICHARD DE ARUNDEL, Knt., Earl of Arundel and Surrey, by an unknown
mistress, _____ [see FITZ ALAN 10].
11. RALPH DE ARUNDEL, probable illegitimate son. He married JULIANE
_____, presumably daughter of William de Grenville, by his wife,
Christian. They had one daughter, Alice. RALPH DE ARUNDEL was buried
with his wife, Juliane, in the church of Towersey, Buckinghamshire, a
chapelry of the prebendal church of Thame, Oxfordshire.
[Note: The coat of arms of Ralph de Arundel is found in a volume of
Robert Glover’s collections (Brit. Mus, MS. Lans. 872). The coat of
arms appears to have been taken from a window which was formerly found
in the chapelry of the prebendal church of Towersey, Buckinghamshire,
where Ralph de Arundel lies buried. These arms are those of the Earls
of Arundel, they being Arundel and Warenne quarterly, placed on two
flanches. According to various heraldic experts, the flanches are an
indication of illegitimacy, the person so designated being the
illegitimate son of a member of the house of Arundel. These same
distinctive arms are also included among the quarterings claimed by
Ralph de Arundel’s descendants, the Dormer family, in the 1634
Visitation of Buckinghamshire (see Philipot et al. Vis. of Buckingham
1634 & 1566 (H.S.P. 58) (1909): 40 (Dormer pedigree). The Dormers
would have been quite familiar with the windows and heraldry in the
chapel of the church at Towersey, as their male line Dormer forbearers
resided in the next door parish of Thame, Oxfordshire. As a matter of
history, the arms in question (Arundel and Warenne quarterly) were
only brought into being in 1347, when Richard de Arundel, Earl of
Arundel (died 1376), became heir to his uncle, John de Warenne, Earl
of Surrey. As such, Ralph de Arundel can only have been an child of
either Earl Richard de Arundel, or one of his siblings. Reviewing the
evidence, it appears best to assign Ralph de Arundel as a child of
Earl Richard himself. The chronology certainly supports this
placement. Also, the earl is known to have had an unhappy first
marriage and to have fathered at least one other illegitimate child.
One heraldic expert has claimed that the flanches on Ralph de
Arundel’s arms are an indication that the illegitimate person adopted
the arms of his mother, not his father. If so, then Ralph de Arundel
would necessarily be the son of one of Earl Richard’s many sisters.
However, the fact that Ralph bore the surname, Arundel, is good
evidence that it was his father who was an Arundel, not his mother, as
bastard sons in this time period usually bore the surname of their
father.].
References:
Montague, Guide to the Study of Heraldry (1840): 43–44 (“In the
manuscript [Lansdowne MS. 872, compiled by the celebrated Glover,
Somerset Herald] from which the foregoing arms are taken, there occurs
(amongst the illegitimates, and after the Beauforts) a shield,
inscribed, “Radulphus de Arundel.” On this shield the arms of the
Fitz-Alans, earls of Arundel, are placed upon what appear to be two
flanches, the space between them being white. It is impossible to
identitfy this person, but in a manuscript in the Cottonian Collection
[Tiberius E. VIII] there is the following note:—‘The base sonne of a
noblewoman, if he doe geve armes must geve upon the same a surcote ….
but unless you doe well marke such a coate (you) may take it for a
coate flanched.’ Now this gives us reason to suspect that the
relationship of this ‘Radulphus’ to the noble house of Arundel was
through a female, and it is not unlikely that he was a son of Cardinal
Beaufort by the Lady Alice, daughter of Richard Fitz-Alan, earl of
Arundel, though historians mention a daughter only as the issue of
that connexion.”). Planché, Pursuivant of Arms (1873): 193–194. Lee,
Hist., Description & Antiquities of …Thame (1883): 254–255 {“At that
time the arms of the Arundells and the Collingridges also remained.
This chantry, since the ‘restoration’ of the church, has been skreened
off by an oak skreen and is now used as a vestry. Near the pue of
this chantry chapel, on the north side of the nave, a Purbeck marble
slab, with the following fragmentary inscription, with four shields of
brass at the corners, remained within the last forty years. The words
in brackets then wanting: Pray for the sowlys of William [de
Grenville] and Christian his wife; also for [………] Arundell and Julyan
[his wife] Also for Bartholomew Collingridge & Alys his wife, and
William ther sonn that her’ lyeth upon whose sowlys o’r Lord I.hs haue
mercy. Amen.”). Antiquary 10 (1884): 154–157 (“The arms of Arundel
represented in the choir of Cottingham Church were the quartered arms
of FitzAlan, gu., a lion rampant, or, and Warenne, chequée. Boutell
gives a representation of the shield of Radulphus de Arundell, showing
these quarterings.”). Misc. Gen. et Heraldica n.s. 4 (1884): 97–99
(“In an Authentick Booke of Pedigrees remaining in the Office of Armes
marked on the cover with 2 cinquefoils G. there is mention of William
Arundell & Christian his wife & of Ralph Arundell theyr son & Julyan
his wife and of Alice theyr da’ and heyre that maried Bartholmew
Collingridge contractedly called Colridge whose originall descent was
out of Lincolnshire and had the lands of Toursey in com. Bucks by
mariage of the said Alice Arundell. Vpon the Monumt in Toursey
Church These Armes of Arundell wth those of Collingridge, sc. Ar. 3
fleurs de lis bl. are depicted with this Inscription—Pray for the
Soules of William & Christian, Raph Arundell & Julian, Barth. Colridge
& Alice his wife, and William theyr son that now her li’th.”).
Woodward, Treatise on Heraldry, British & Foreign 2 (1892): 179–180
(“Mr. Montagu also gives the following extract from the Cottonian MS.
(Tiberius, E. viii), in the British Museum. ‘The base son of a noble
woman if he doe geve armes must give upon the same a surcoat … but
unless you doe well marke such coat (you) may take it for a coat
flanched. This is illustrated by an example from Glover’s MS.
(Lansdowne MSS. 872), where a certain Radulphus de Arundel bears the
coat of the FITZ-ALANS, Earls of ARUNDEL (Quarterly, 1 and 4. Gules, a
lion rampant or; 2 and 3. Chequy or and azure) debruised by a
‘surcoat’ argent, the ‘surcoat’ being part of the field remaining
between the plaunches. Montagu reasonably suspects that this
RADULPHUS was a son of Cardinal BEAUFORT by the Lady ALICE FITZALAN,
daughter of RICHARD, Earl of ARUNDEL.”). Boutell, Handbook to English
Heraldry (1914): 190–191. Oxoniensia 11 (1946): 90–101. Coat of Arms
2 (1953): 270–273 (“FLANCHES. Even more interesting is a coat which
Montagu noticed in a volume of Robert Glover’s collections (Brit. Mus,
MS. Lans. 872). The shield is silver with the arms of Arundel and
Warren quarterly on the flanches, or as it would more probably have
been blazoned, Arundel and Warren quarterly with a surcoat of silver.
The shield is attributed to Radulphus de Arundel. Nothing is known
about him, but some fifteenth-century treatises say that if a bastard
wishes to bear his mother’s arms he must mark them with a surcoat over
all. That the coat is a bastard’s cannot not be doubted, but it was
no more than a plausible guess when Montagu suggested that Ralph may
have been a son of Cardinal Beaufort by Alice, daughter of Richard
Earl of Arundel, a lady on whom the Cardinal is known to have begotten
a daughter in his youth.”). Ross & Faris, Descendants of Edward
Howell (1584–1655) of Westbury Manor, Marsh Gibbon (1985): 17.
12. ALICE ARUNDEL, daughter and heiress. She married BARTHOLOMEW
COLLLINGRIDGE (or COLYNGRYGGE, COLRUGG). They had one son, William.
In 1397 he was farmer of the manor of Medmenham, Buckinghamshire at an
annual rent of £40; the ownership of this manor was forfeited that
year by Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and Surrey. In 1413
Andrew Sparlyng, of Buckinghamshire, recorded a recognizance bond to
him in the amount of 12 marks 6s. 8d. He was farmer of the manor of
Shirburn, Oxfordshire c.1415. About 1431 he and his son, William,
acquired the manor of Quartremains in the hamlet of Ascot (parish of
Great Milton), Oxfordshire from Richard Quatermain. In 1432 Richard
Quatermain acquired from the Collingridges the fourth part of the
manor of Shirburn, Oxfordshire. BARTHOLOMEW COLLINGRIDGE was buried
with his wife, Alice, in the church of Towersey, Buckinghamshire, a
chapelry of the prebendal church of Thame, Oxfordshire.
References:
Top. & Gen. 1 (1846): 61–62 (Collingridge arms: Argent three fleurs-de-
lis azure). Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 3 (1847): 585,
653. Lee, Hist., Description & Antiquities of …Thame (1883): 254–
255. Misc. Gen. et Heraldica n.s. 4 (1884): 97–99. Plaisted, Manor
and Parish Recs. of Medmenham (1925): 43–44, 97. C.C.R. 1413–1419
(1929): 102, 104. C.C.R. 1441–1447 (1937): 216. Oxoniensia 11
(1946): 90–101 (“The best possibility which I can propound is that
Bartholomew Collingridge married an otherwise unrecorded daughter of
Sir John Arundell by his first marriage—that is a whole-sister of Anne
Arundell, wife of James Tyrrell, who dispossessed the Dormers from
Kingsey in 1473. Even this chronologically is a tight fit, and the
fact that Sir John Arundell had only daughters by his first marriage
is scant reason for calling them heiresses or heirs-general, though it
would have seemed less so in the 15th century.”). VCH Oxford 7
(1962): 117–146; 8 (1964): 178–198. Cal. Inqs. Misc. 8 (2003): 155.
13. WILLIAM COLLINGRIDGE, of Towersey, Buckinghamshire, son and heir.
He married SARAH _____. They had one son, John, Gent., and one
daughter, Alice. In 1434 W. Bishop of Lincoln, Reynold Grey, Knt., of
Ruthin, and two others were appointed commissioners to take the oath
of various Buckinghamshire residents, among them William Colyngrygge,
of Towersey. In the period, 1456–1460, William sued Richard
Quatermain in Chancery regarding the manors of Shirburn and Ascot (in
Great Milton), Oxfordshire; the manor of Ascot worth £9 a year was
awarded to William Collingridge by judgement of the court. WILLIAM
COLLINGRIDGE was buried in the church of Towersey, Buckinghamshire, a
chapelry of the prebendal church of Thame, Oxfordshire.
References:
Lee Hist., Description & Antiquities of …Thame (1883): 254–255. Misc.
Gen. et Heraldica n.s. 4 (1884): 97–99. C.P.R. 1429–1436 (1907): 395,
398. VCH Oxford 7 (1962): 117–146 (“William Collingridge is presumed
to have died without issue (Oxoniensia, xi, 95), but he apparently had
a son John.”). National Archives, C 1/26/208 (abstract of document
available online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Carter, Quartermains 41, 56–57.
14. ALICE COLLINGRIDGE, married (as his 2nd wife) GEOFFREY DORMER, of
West Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, and Thame, Oxfordshire, woolman,
merchant of the Staple of Calais, allegedly son and heir of Geoffrey
Dormer, of West Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, by Judith, daughter of
Robert Baldington. They had seven sons, including Geoffrey, Gent.,
Michael, Knt. [Alderman and Mayor of London], Peter, and Edward, Esq.,
and five daughters, including Alice, Margaret (wife of Richard
Cowley), and Elizabeth (wife of _____ Towley). Geoffrey married (1st)
MARGERY _____, by which marriage he had five sons, including William,
Esq., and Thomas, and eight daughters. In 1472 Sir John Arundell
conveyed the manor of Kingsey, Buckinghamshire to John Henton and
other trustees for the use of Geoffrey Dormer, of Thame. In 1473
Geoffrey purchased the manor of Baldington’s Court (in Thame),
Oxfordshire from Henry Tracy, Esq., and Alice his wife, daughter and
co-heiress of Thomas Baldington for £400 sterling. The same year he
also acquired the Baldington estate in Little Milton, Oxfordshire. He
also acquired five messuages and lands in Great Ickford (in Ickford)
and Long Crendon, Buckinghamshire in 1473 from the same parties for
100 marks of silver. In the period, 1475–1480, or 1483–1485,
Bartholomew Donne, citizen and tailor of London sued the mayor and
sheriffs of London in Chancery regarding an action of detinue brought
by Geoffrey Dormer, woolman, against complainant, on his refusing to
deliver goods, which he contracted to sell to Dormer on condition that
John Michell should transfer to complainant an obligation given by him
to Dormer, the said Michell having refused to effect the transfer. In
1481 he was presented for enclosing land at Moreton (in Thame),
Oxfordshire. In the period, 1485–1486, he sued Richard Cary in
Chancery regarding the detention of a bond relating to the manor of
Kingsey, Buckinghamshire. In the period, 1486–1493, or 1504–1515, he
sued Thomas Bele in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating
to a messuage, half a burgage, and land in Old and New Thame,
Oxfordshire. In 1493–1500 Thomas, son of Geoffrey Dormer, the elder
sued Geoffrey Dormer, the elder, Geoffrey Dormer, the younger, and
John Altherton, vicar of Thame regarding imprisonment for debt in
order to avoid the settlement of land in Old Thame, New Thame,
Kingsley, Oxfordshire, and West Wycombe, Buckinghamshire on
complainant and his wife Joan, daughter of Thomas Hardegrove. In 1498
he settled the manor of Baldington (in Thame), Oxfordshire on his son,
Geoffrey the younger, and his heirs male, with successive remainders
to his sons, Michael, Peter, Edward, William, and Thomas, and then to
the right heirs of Geoffrey Dormer the elder. In 1502 Geoffrey and
his wife, Alice, quitclaimed the manor of Kingsey, Buckinghamshire for
themselves and the heirs of Alice to their son, Peter Dormer, and his
wife, Agnes. GEOFFREY DORMER died 9 March 1502/3, and was buried in
Trinity Aisle in the church of Thame, Oxfordshire. He left a will
dated 20 October 1502, which has not survived. His widow, Alice, was
buried at Thame, Oxfordshire in 1513.
References:
Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 7 (1812): 66–76 (sub Dormer Lord
Dormer) (Ursula Collingridge, wife of Geoffrey Dormer, styled “the
heir general of Arundel”). Baker, Hist. & Antiqs. of Northampton 1
(1822-1830): 620 (Dormer pedigree), 667–668 (Dormer pedigree). Burke
& Burke, Genealogical & Heraldic Hist. of the Extinct & Dormant
Baronetcies of England, Ireland, & Scotland (1841): 162–163 (sub
Dormer). Top. & Gen. 1 (1846): 61–62 (Dormer arms: Azure ten billets
or, on a chief or a demi-lion issuant sable charged with a martlet).
Lipscomb, Hist. & Antiqs. of Buckingham 1 (1847): 296, 477; 3 (1847):
585, 653 (“Another Geoffrey Dormer… succeeded to the inheritance of
West Wycombe (as well as that of Thame) and great increased his estate
by marrying Ursula, daughter and heir of Bartholomew Collingridge, the
heir-general of Arundell.”). Lupton, Hist. of Thame & Hamlets (1860):
80. Haines Manual of Monumental Brasses (1861): 175 (sub Thame,
Oxfordshire: “IV. Geoff. [Dormer, mcht. of the staple of Calais],
1502, and wives [Margery] (with 5 sons lost, and 8 daus.) and Alice
(with 7 sons and 5 daus.), mcht.’s mk., Evang. symbs., marg. inscr.
mutil., A.T., N.Tr.”). Marshall, Memorials of Westcott Barton, in the
County of Oxford (1870): 46 (“The Manor House and Estate at Barton
Œde, otherwise Sesswell’s Barton, probably came into the Dormer family
through the marriage of Geoffrey Dormer, Esq., of Chearsley with
Ursula, daughter of Bartholomew Collingridge, Esq., of Towersey, who
had married an Arundell.”). Recs. of Buckinghamshire, or, Papers &
Notes on the Hist., Antiqs., & Architecture of the County 5 (1878):
189 (“In the reign of Henry VI. this manor [Hughendon] passed to
Geoffrey Dormer, of West Wycombe, by his marriage with Ursula,
daughter and heiress of Bartholomew Collingridge, the heir-general of
Arundel and a descendant of the Fitz-Alans.”). Gower, Gen. of the
Fam. of Gresham (1883): 23. Lee, Hist., Description & Antiquities of …
Thame (1883): 49–50, 93–94 (“In the north wall of the north transept
[in the church of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame] … under a three-
pointed arch of plain character, an altar-tomb of stone, with a
Purbeck marble slab, in commemoration of Geoffrey Dormer and his two
wives … At the corners of the slab are the four Evangelistic symbols
in circles. There are also two coats of arms and a shield bearing the
merchant’s mark of Geoffrey Dormer … Round the edge of the tomb the
following inscription in brass still remains: Orate pro animab’s
Galfridi Dormer, mercatoris stapule ville Cali’s et Margere et Alicie
uxores eius qui Quidem Galfridus obiit nono die Marcii Anno d’ni
Mil’s’mo quingentisimo secundo quor’ a’i’ab’ propicietur Deus.
Amen.”), 498–499, 504–516 (Dormer pedigree), 520–521. Misc. Gen. et
Heraldica n.s. 4 (1884): 97–99. Gibbs, Worthies of Buckinghamshire &
Men of Note of that County (1888): 133–134 (biog. of Sir Robert
Dormer). Aldred, Ancient & Modern Hist. of Turville in the County of
Bucks (1894): 24–33 (“Sir Michael Dormer inherited the manor of
Turville … was son of Geoffrey Dormer, a wool stapler of Calais, Lord
of Baldington’s manor in Thame, who resided at West Wycombe having
considerably increased his Landed Estates on marriage with Ursula d.
and h. of Bartholomew Collingridge, by Alice, his wife, d. and h. of
Ralph Arundel, grandson of William, son of John, Baron Maltravers.”).
Philipot et al., Vis. of Buckingham 1634 & 1566 (H.S.P. 58) (1909): 40–
42 (Dormer pedigree: “Geffrey Dormer. = Ursula Cailridg;” “Geffrey
Dormer of West Wicombe Bucks of Thame Ox. Esquire vide ye top of ye
leaf 30b. = Vrsula dau. and heire of Bartholmew Calridge
(Coobridge)”). VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 63–68. Oxoniensia 11 (1946):
90–101 (“The father of Geoffrey Dormer (d. 1503), another Geoffrey,
had married Judith, daughter and heiress of Robert Baldington, who is
sometimes described as Lord of Thame, but in fact owned a manor in
Thame who bore the name of Baldington’s Court. Lee, pg. 503, wrongly
assigns to Baldington the arms of three fleurs-dy-lys which still
survive on the brass of Geoffrey Dormer at Thame (1503): these are,
however, in my view, the arms of Collingridge (or three fleurs-de-lys
azure) as they are quoted in Glover’s Armorial. They also occur,
impaled with Dormer, on the brass of Peter Dormer at Newbottle …
Furthermore, the arms of Baldington may be seen on other Oxfordshire
monuments, e.g. the brass of William Brome in Holton church where they
are ‘argent, on a chevron sable, between three ogresses, three
quatrefoils of the first.’ … [The Dormer family’s] attractive shield
—‘azure ten billets or, 4, 3, 2, 1, and on a chief of the second a
demi-lion rampant issuant sable’ was granted in 1523 by Thomas
Wriothesley, Garter, to ‘Geoffrey Dormer, eldest son of Geoffrey
Dormer and Alice Collingridge”.”). Dockery, Collingridge; a
Franciscan Contribution to Catholic Emancipation (1954): 1. VCH
Oxford 7 (1962): 117–146, 160–178, 199–219. National Archives, C
1/64/860; C 1/76/116; C 1/131/43; C 1/197/66 (abstract of documents
available online at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Children of Alice Collingridge, by Geoffrey Dormer:
i. MICHAEL DORMER, Knt., Mercer and Stapler of London, Auditor, 1526–
1528, Sheriff of London, 1529–1530, Master of the Mercers Company,
1531, 1545, Alderman of London, 1531–1545, Mayor of London, 1541–1542,
Mayor of the Staple of Calais, 2nd son by his father’s 2nd marriage.
He married (1st) before 1505 ELIZABETH _____. They had five sons,
Thomas, William, Geoffrey, John, and Ambrose. In the period, 1509–
1542, Michael Dormer sued William Barantyne, Knt. regarding rent due
upon a lease of the manor of Clare and lands in Clare and Pyrton,
Oxfordshire. In 1518 John Birchley, Citizen and poulterer of London,
owed him a debt of £20. In 1518 he acquired the manor of Ascot (in
Great Milton), Oxfordshire from his nephew, Robert Dormer, Knt., which
property formerly belonged to his cousin, John Collingridge. In 1520
he purchased the manor of Long Crendon, Buckinghamshire from Thomas
Grey. In 1524 William Garland, Gent., of Stanford-le-Hope in Essex,
and William Tendring, yeoman, of Broomfield, Essex owed him a debt of
£26 13s. 4d. In 1527 Thomas Burneby, Esq., of Watford,
Northamptonshire owed him a debt of £80. In 1529 Thomas Eyton, Gent.,
of Horton, Shropshire, and Thomas Browne, yeoman, of Brocton,
Shropshire owed him a debt of £20. In 1529 he acquired a manor in
Hanbury, Warwickshire from Robert Corbett. In 1530 Thomas Weston,
Gent., of Malling, Kent owed him a debt of £30. In 1533 he purchased
the manors of Little Milton (in Great Milton), Oxfordshire and Dorton,
Buckinghamshire from John Cottesmore. In 1537 he purchased the manor
of Aston Bernard (in Dinton), Buckinghamshire from George Hastings,
Earl of Huntingdon, and his son, Francis. He married (2nd) in 1539
KATHERINE _____, widow of Richard Collier (died 1533), Mercer of
London, and Robert Packington, Mercer of London. In the period, 1538–
1544, Thomas, son and heir of Robert Pakyngton of London, mercer sued
Michael Dormer, Knt., and Katherine his wife, late the wife of the
said Robert, regarding the detention of deeds relating to messuages in
West Cheap, London. In 1539 he acquired a share of Souldern and
Steeple Aston, Oxfordshire from Richard Sapcotes. He acquired two
virgates of land in Turville, Buckinghamshire in 1540. In 1540 and
1543 the king granted him various lands in Wendover, Buckinghamshire
formerly held by Missenden Abbey. In 1541 the king granted him the
manor of Great Kimble, Buckinghamshire, together with all the lands
formerly belonging to Missenden Abbey in Great and Little Kimble,
Buckinghamshire. He was knighted 2 Feb. 1542. In 1542 he acquired a
share of the manor of Rousham, Oxfordshire from Richard Sapcotes;
before 1545 he acquired another share of the same manor presumably
from John, Lord Zouche. About 1542 he acquired a share of the manor
of Over Worton, Oxfordshire from the estate of Richard Sapcotes, which
he settled on his younger son, John Dormer. In 1544 he was granted
the manor of Lannock (in Weston), Buckinghamshire by the king. In
1545 he settled the manor of Dorton, Buckinghamshire on his second
son, William, and William’s wife, Elizabeth. In 1545 he purchased the
advowson of the chapel and various lands in Westcourt (in Shalbourne),
Berkshire from Walter Changton. SIR MICHAEL DORMER died 20 Sept.
1545. He left a will dated 17 Sept. 1545, proved 2 October 1545
(P.C.C. 38 Pynning), requesting burial in the churchyard of St.
Lawrence Jewry, London by his former wife, Elizabeth. In the period,
1545–1553, William Barantyne, Knt. sued Katherine Dormer, and the
executors of Sir Michael Dormer regarding lands in Pirton,
Oxfordshire, including the manor of Clare. In 1546 Edward Seymour,
Earl of Hertford, Chamberlain of England, sold Lady Katherine Dormer,
widow of Sir Michael Dormer, Knt., and Thomas, William, John, and
Ambrose Dormer, sons of Michael Dormer, messuages etc. called Even
Swyndon, Wiltshire, and lands etc. in Even Swyndon, Rodburn, otherwise
Radburn, Wiltshire. In 1548 Lady Katherine Dormer, late wife of Sir
Michael Dormer, Knt., Citizen and alderman of London, and Thomas, John
and Ambrose Dormer, sons of Sir Michael Dormer, sold to Alexander
Seymer, the younger the manor of Bourton, near Bampton, Oxfordshire,
together with lands in Bourton, messuages in Clanveld, Lewe (parish of
Bampton), and Fylkyns, Oxfordshire, and a tenement in Rysyngton,
Oxfordshire. His widow, Lady Katherine, was buried 29 Jan. 1562/3.
Brydges, Collins’ Peerage of England 7 (1812): 66–76 (sub Dormer Lord
Dormer). Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 2 (1826): 716 (will of Sir
Michael Dormer). Gentleman’s Mag. n.s. 22 (1829): 218–220. Machin,
Diary of Henry Machyn (Camden Soc. 42) 1848): 299 (“The xxix day of
January was bered in sant [Olave’s?] in the Jury my lade Dormer, late
the wyff of ser Myghell Dormer [knyght], latt mare of London and
merser and stapuller”), 393. Bartholomew Collingridge, the heir-
general of Arundel and a descendant of the Fitz-Alans.”). Gower, Gen.
of the Fam. of Gresham (1883): 23. Lee, Hist., Description &
Antiquities of …Thame (1883): 504–516 (Dormer pedigree). Fry, Abs. of
Inqs. Post mortem rel. to the City of London 1 (1896): 58–59. Home
Counties Mag. 1 (1899): 333. VCH Buckingham 2 (1908): 298–303; 3
(1925): 20–31, 101–105, 171–177; 4 (1927): 36–45, 45–48, 61–63. VCH
Berkshire 4 (1924): 228–234. VCH Warwick 6 (1951): 103–108. VCH
Oxford 6 (1959): 301–312; 7 (1962): 117–146; 11 (1983): 159–168, 293–
300. Keene & Harding, Hist. Gazeteer of London before the Great Fire
(1987): 267–269. Sutton, Mercery of London (2005): 366, 529–530.
National Archives, C 1/1050/2–5; C 131/111/9; C 131/111/19; C
131/112/26; C 241/237/111; C 241/278/77; C 241/279/16; C 241/280/123;
C 241/282/13; E 328/206; E 328/217; E 328/243; STAC 2/12; STAC
2/17/348; STAC 3/3/64 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
ii. ALICE DORMER [see next].
15. ALICE DORMER, daughter by her father’s 2nd marriage. She married
THOMAS CROCKER (or CROKER), of Faringdon, Berkshire. They had one
son, John, Esq. Thomas was presumably closely related to Richard
Crocker, of Faringdon, Berkshire, Merchant of the Staple of Calais,
who left a will dated 8 March 1519, proved 14 March 1519, naming his
wife, Ellen, but no children (P.C.C. 27 Ayloffe).
[Note: In 1570 John Dormer, of Steeple Barton, Oxfordshire, younger
son of Sir Michael Dormer, Mayor of London above, stated in a letter
that he had spoken with his “Cousin Croker” about a potential land
sale. “Cousin Croker” is doubtless Sir Gerard Crocker, also of
Steeple Barton, Oxfordshire, who was the grandson of Alice Dormer,
wife of Thomas Crocker above [References: Shakespeare Centre Library
and Archive: Archer of Tanworth, DR 37/2/Box 87/8, DR 37/2/Box 87/9;
abstract of documents available online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp;
see also Lee Hist., Description & Antiquities of …Thame (1883): 504–
516 (Dormer pedigree); Stapleton Three Oxfordshire Parishes: Hist. of
Kidlington, Yarnton & Begbroke (Oxford Hist. Soc. 24) (1893): 73–75;
VCH Oxford 11 (1983): 59–75; ]. In 1587 John Crocker, of Steeple
Barton, Oxfordshire, son and heir of Sir Gerard Crocker, conveyed a
one-fifth part of the manor of Kidlington, Oxfordshire to Brasenose
College, Oxford. Joining him in the conveyance were his cousin,
Michael Dormer, of Hampton Poyle, Oxfordshire, son of Ambrose Dormer,
and grandson of Sir Michael Dormer, Mayor of London above; Edward
Hawten, of the Lea (husband of his aunt, Margery Crocker); and John
Bonner, of Swarford (husband of his aunt, Margaret Crocker)
[References: Stapleton, Three Oxfordshire Parishes: Hist. of
Kidlington, Yarnton & Begbroke (Oxford Hist. Soc. 24) (1893): 73–75;
Marshall, Memorials of Westcott Barton, in the County of Oxford
(1870): 44; Nicolas, Memoirs of the Life & Times of Sir Christopher
Hatton (1847): 335–337; Calendar of State Papers, Domestic Series, of
the Reign of Elizabeth I, 1581–1590 (1865): 399; Grazebrook, Colls.
for a Genealogy of the Noble Fams. of Henzey, Tyttery, & Tyzack
(1877): 35–36; Blomfield, Hist. of Finmere, Oxon. (1887): 45–46; VCH
Oxford 6 (1959): 160–168].
References:
Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574, 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5)
(1871): 185 (Croker pedigree: “Thomas Croker of Ffaringdon in com.
Barks. = Alice da. to Jeffrey Dormer of Thame in com. Oxon.”) (Crocker
arms: Argent, on a chevron engrailed gules between three ravens sable
three mullets or). Berkshire Arch. Jour. n.s. 20 (1914): 82 (will of
Richard Crocker).
16. JOHN CROCKER, Gent., afterwards Esq., of Hook Norton, Oxfordshire,
Sheriff of Oxfordshire, 1562, son and heir. He married (1st) ISABEL
SKINNER, daughter of Robert Skinner, of Alcester, Warwickshire. They
had three sons, John, Gerard, Knt., and Richard, and five daughters,
Margery (wife of Henry Stratford and Rowland Baughe), Alice (wife of
Gilbert Wheeler), Margery (2nd of name) (wife of Edward Hawten,
Gent.), Alice (2nd of name) (wife of John Brooke), and Margaret (wife
of John Bonner). In 1535 John Crocker acknowledged a receipt from
Richard, Abbot of Brewern. In 1545 he acquired the manor and the
advowson of the church of Warmington, Warwickshire from William
Sheldon and Francis Sheldon. He married (2nd) MARGARET CROFTS, widow
of Anthony Strange, of Cirencester, Gloucestershire, and daughter of
John Crofts. They had one daughter, Margery (or Margaret) (wife of
William Babbington, Knt.). Before 1545 the lease of the manor of
Easington (in Banbury), Oxfordshire passed to John Crocker, to hold to
the use of his son-in-law, Edward Hawten. In 1548 Edward Lecke had
license to grant tenements in Arlescote (in Warmington), Warwickshire
to John Crocker, of Hook Norton, Oxfordshire. In 1550 an annual
pension of 6s. 8d. out of the rectory of Willey, Warwickshire was
granted to John Croker the elder, with remainder to his sons, Gerard,
John, and Richard, and their heirs male. In 1551 John Crocker settled
the manor of Warmington and lands in Arlescote (in Warmington),
Warwickshire on himself for life, with remainder to his son, Gerard.
By 1551 he held an estate in Milcombe (in Bloxham), Oxfordshire, part
of which he settled on his younger son, Gerard, before 1563. In 1554
he presented to the church of Warmington, Warwickshire. In 1556 he
received from Hervey Norroy a grant of arms resembling those of the
Crocker family of Lineham, Devon, from which family he was probably
descended. In 1563 he and his son, Gerard Crocker, witnessed the will
of his first cousin, Geoffrey Dormer, Esq., of Farthinghoe,
Northamptonshire, younger son of John’s uncle, Sir Michael Dormer,
Mayor of London. JOHN CROCKER, Esq., died 6 March 1568/9, and was
buried at Hook Norton, Oxfordshire. He left a will dated 1 Feb.
1568/9, proved 2 March 1568/9 (P.C.C. 8 Sheffield).
References:
Warton, Life of Sir Thomas Pope (1780): 326. Topographer &
Genealogist 1 (1846): 272–274 (re. Babbington family). Harvey et al.
Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574, 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5) (1871): 185 (Croker
pedigree: “John Croker of Hokenorton in com, Oxon. [1] = Isabell daur.
to Robt. Skynner of Alceter in com. War. First wife, [2] = Margarett
da. of John Crofts of Holt in com. War. Widdowe of Anthony Strange of
Ciceter in Com. Gloc.”). Grazebrook, Colls. for a Genealogy of the
Noble Fams. of Henzey, Tyttery, & Tyzack (1877): 35–36. Gairdner,
Letters & Papers, Foreign & Domestic, Henry VII, August to December
1535 (1886): 143–165. Dickins, Hist. of Hook Norton (1928): 162–163.
VCH Warwick 5 (1949): 182–187; 6 (1951): 259–261. VCH Oxford 9
(1969): 53–85; 10 (1972): 42–49. Faris, Descendants of Edward Howell
(1985): 15. National Archives, C 1/726/17; C 2/Eliz/C6/7; C 43/10/81
(Parties: Savage, administrators of v. heirs etc. of Croker. Subject:
Proceedings on recognizance of debt. Judgment. County: Oxon. Date:
29/30 Elizabeth I [1586–1588]) (abstract of documents available online
at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Warwickshire County Record Office: Child-Villiers of Upton, L5/245;
L5/246; L5/247a; L5/247b; L5/248 (abstract of documents available
online at http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp). Will of Geoffrey
Dormer, Esq., of Farthinghoe, Northamptonshire dated 4 Nov. 1562,
proved Nov. 1562 (P.C.C. Streat) [FHL Microfilm 91940].
17. MARGERY CROCKER, daughter of her father’s 1st marriage. She
married before 1545 EDWARD HAWTEN, Gent., of Swalcliffe, Epwell, and
Hook Norton, Oxfordshire, son and heir of Edward Hawten, of Burton,
Epwell, Hook Norton, Sibford Ferris, and Sibford Gower (in
Swalcliffe), Oxfordshire, by Millicent, daughter of William Pierson,
of Banbury, Oxfordshire, mercer. He was born about 1525 (aged 13 in
1538). They had four sons, John, Gerard, George, and Anthony, and two
daughters, Isabel and Margaret. In the period, 1532–1538, James
Bulsterwood sued Edward, son and heir of Edward Hawten, Anthony
Bustard [step-father of Edward Hawten the younger], and John Croker in
Chancery regarding the traverse of an inquisition concerning the
wardship of the first-named defendant in respect of one-third fee in
Tysoe, Warwickshire, the jury having been tampered with, and relevant
deeds being in the possession of Lord St. John and others. In the
period, 1538–1544, Edward’s step-father, Anthony Bustard, Gent., of
Adderbury, Oxfordshire sued John Hawten, of Shenington,
Gloucestershire, yeoman in Chancery regarding money, jewels, and plate
entrusted to defendants, to the use of Millicent wife of complainant
deceased, and formerly the wife of Edward Hawten [the elder]. Before
1545 the lease of the manor of Easington (in Banbury), Oxfordshire
passed to John Crocker, to hold to the use of his son-in-law, Edward
Hawten. Sometime before 1547, Edward Hawton sued his wife, Margery,
and Richard Crofts in the Court of the Star Chamber alleging that
Crofts, “being a light disposed person,” went to Hawton’s house at
Ley, Oxfordshire where Hawton’s wife, Margery, succumbed to his
allurement and agreed to sleep with him; the defendants denied the
charges, stating that the disclosures of Margery Collyn, a servant,
were all lies. It would appear that the allegations were unfounded,
as Edward Hawten and his wife, Margery, subsequently lived together
the remainder of his life. The unnamed children of Edward and Margery
Hawten were legatees in the 1569 will of Margery’s father, John
Crocker, Esq. In 1578 Edward purchased the manor of Swalcliffe Lea,
Oxfordshire from Edward Dymoke. In 1586 he released his right to a
1/4th share of lands in Finmere, Oxfordshire to his wife’s nephew,
John Crocker, of Steeple Barton, Buckinghamshire. In 1587 he likewise
joined John Crocker, of Steeple Barton, in a conveyance of Crocker’s
one-fifth share of the manor of Kidlington, Oxfordshire to Brasenose
College, Oxford. EDWARD HAWTEN died shortly before 14 October 1594,
when administration on his estate was granted to his widow, Margery.
References:
Harvey et al., Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574, 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5)
(1871): 137–138 (Hawtayne of the Ley pedigree: “Edward Hautten, of the
Ley, maryed Margery, daughter of John Croche [Croker] of Hookenorton
in the Countye of Oxford, Esqr.”) (“Edward Hawtayne of the Ley sonne
and heire. = Margaret da. to John Croker of Huknorton, in Com. Oxon.”)
(Hawtayne arms: Or, on a fess cotised gules, between three asses’
heads erased sable, an unicorn courant argent), 295 (Hawtayne of
Cothrope pedigree: “Edward Hawten.”). Stapleton, Three Oxfordshire
Parishes: Hist. of Kidlington, Yarnton & Begbroke (Oxford Hist. Soc.
24) (1893): 73–75. VCH Oxford 10 (1972): 42–49, 225–260. Faris
Descendants of Edward Howell (1985): 11–12, 14. National Archives, C
1/726/17; C 1/949/53–54; C 43/10/55 (Parties: Principal and scholars
of Brasenose Coll., Oxon, v. Croker, Dormer, Hawthen and Bonner.
Subject: Proceedings on recognizance of debt. Judgment. Cudlington
alias Kidlington, Oxfordshire, manor, lands etc. Date: 29 Elizabeth I
[1586–1587]); STAC 2/19/161 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
18. MARGARET HAWTEN, baptized at Swalcliffe, Oxfordshire 29 Nov.
1561. She married at Swalcliffe, Oxfordshire 13 May 1583 HENRY
HOWELL, of Westbury (in Marsh Gibbon), Buckinghamshire, younger son of
William Howell, of Westbury (in Marsh Gibbon) and Wingrave,
Buckinghamshire, by his 2nd wife, Anne Eyre. He was baptized at
Wingrave, Buckinghamshire 13 Dec. 1552. They had four sons, Edward,
Gent., Thomas, Anthony, and Henry, and three daughters, Margaret,
Isabel, and Jane. He was heir in 1575 to his older brother, John
Howell, by which inherited the manor of Westbury (in Marsh Gibbon),
Buckinghamshire. The masters of the Cooks Company trumped up an
“odious suit” and put a tenant of their own in the manor; Henry Howell
subsequently sued to eject the tenant and won. In 1587 the manor of
Westbury (in Marsh Gibbon), Buckinghamshire was settled on Henry and
his wife, Margaret, for the term of their lives, with reversion to
their heirs male. HENRY HOWELL died at Marsh Gibbon, Buckinghamshire
12 July 1625. His widow, Margaret, was living at North Aston,
Oxfordshire 31 October 1626. She presumably died before 8 June 1638,
when her son, Edward Howell, alienated the manor of Westbury (in Marsh
Gibbon), Buckinghamshire.
References:
Plowden, Commentaries, or the Reports, of Edmund Plowden 2 (1816):
530, et seq. (Croft v. Howel). VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 208. Faris,
Descendants of Edward Howell (1985): 8–9.
18. EDWARD HOWELL, Gent., son and heir, baptized at Marsh Gibbon,
Buckinghamshire 26 July 1584. He married (1st) at Odell, Bedfordshire
7 April 1616 FRANCES PAXTON. They had four sons, Henry, John, Edward,
and Richard, and three daughters, Dorothy, Margaret, and Margery.
His wife, Frances, died in 1630. He married (2nd) before 1632 ELEANOR
_____. They had three sons, Henry, Arthur, and Edmund. He and his
family immigrated to New England c.1635, where they settled initially
at Lynn, Massachusetts. In 1638 he sold the manor of Westbury (in
Marsh Gibbon), Buckinghamshire to Richard Francis. He took the oath
as Freeman in Boston, Massachusetts 14 March 1638/9. About the same
year he received 500 acres at Lynn, Massachusetts. In 1640 he removed
to Southampton, Long Island, first settling at ‘Old Town,’ and then in
1648, at what became the present village of Southampton. As “Edward
Howell, Gentleman,” he headed the list of ‘perfect freemen’ dated 8
March 1649. He took a leading role in the affairs of Southampton,
serving in many capacities there and in Connecticut, of which
Southampton became a part following a request made by himself and two
others 25 October 1644. He served as a magistrate in Southampton
until 1653, and an Assistant of the Connecticut Colony from 1647 to
1653. EDWARD HOWELL, Gent., died shortly before 6 October 1655 (grant
of administration on his estate), and was buried in the Southend
Cemetery, Southampton, Long Island. In 1657 his widow, Eleanor, was
granted 20 shillings in compensation for her house being burned by the
Indians. She married (2nd) before 14 March 1663 THOMAS SAYRE. Her
subsequent history is unknown.
References:
VCH Buckingham 4 (1927): 208. Faris, Descendants of Edward Howell
(1985): 5–9, 18–38.
Seumas MacThómais
to our knowledge of such pedigrees.
One question: Was William de Grenville, the presumed father-in-law of
Ralph de Arundel, a member of the Bucks family outlined at this site:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62550
and, if so, where does he fit in this pedigree?
Again, a fine job -- I wish we had more documented information like
this on this group.
Seumas
royala...@msn.com
Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated.
In answer to your question, I have no particulars on William de
Grenville.
I might mention that those people who descend from the Dormer family
will doubtless be interested in the monumental brass of Edward
Howell's ancestor, Geoffrey Dormer, Merchant of the Staple of Calais,
who died in 1503. This brass is depicted in the book, Ancient
Memorial Brasses, by Edward T. Beaumont (1913): 51, and may be viewed
at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=lRlAAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR9&dq=Geoffrey+Dormer+Thame&lr=#PPA51,M1
The brass shows Geoffrey Dormer with his two wives, Margery _____ and
Alice Collingridge, and his huge tribe of 25 children born of his two
marriages. His wife Alice is on the right. Above Alice's head the
Collingridge arms are displayed, they being Argent three fleurs-de-
lis azure. The brass did not include the Arundel arms, as Alice
Collingridge was not an heiress in her lifetime.
royala...@msn.com
As I indicated in my post earlier today, Edward Howell's ancestor,
Geoffrey Dormer (died 1503), of Thame, Oxfordshire, is known to have
left a will. However, this will is not thought to have survived. A
transcript of a part of it was recorded in the records of Thame,
Oxfordshire, so that is how it is known Geoffrey Dormer left a will.
Just now I was checking Google Books for the name, Geoffrey Dormer.
In the book, Eighth Report of the Royal Commission on Manuscripts,
Appendix, Part I, Section II, published in 1881, I found a list of
various wills proved in the period, 1500-1503. These will were
recorded in Register F of the Commissary of the Prior of Canterbury.
The editor states that "Register F" includes 400 wills, "which, up to
the present time, have been unknown to genealogists."
This material can be found at the following weblinks:
http://books.google.com/books?id=gmwpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT192&dq=Geoffrey+Dormer+Thame&lr=#PPT183,M1
Imagine my surprise when I found the will of Geoffrey Dormer, of
Thame, Oxfordshire on the list of testators.
http://books.google.com/books?id=gmwpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT192&dq=Geoffrey+Dormer+Thame&lr=#PPT192,M1
If I understand the editor's comments and the text correctly, it
appears the will of Geoffrey Dormer was probated not at the
Prerogative Court of Canterbury, as would normally have been the case,
but rather in the Commissary of the Prior of Canterbury. This was
because the see of Canterbury was vacant due to the death of Henry
Dean, Archbishop of Canterbury. Wikipedia indicates that Archbishop
Henry Dean died 15/17 Feb. 1502/3.
So, the good news is that Geoffrey Dormer's will has survived and is
not lost at all. Now to find will register F.
lma...@att.net
I suppose we should ignore the controversy of the maternity
of Gwladus Ddu.
Leslie
royala...@msn.com
Good to hear from you, Leslie.
I guess it's time we went over the evidence regarding Gwladus Ddu's
maternity again. I'll post on the subject later this week.
DR
royala...@msn.com
It appears that Geoffrey Dormer's will has survived, albeit in
imperfect condition. The will is listed in the index to wills
probated in the Commissary of the Prior of Cantebury, which index is
found in the book, Woodruff & Churchill, Sede Vacante Wills (Kent
Recs. 3) (1914): 16. A snippet view of the item may be viewed at the
following weblink, the second item:
http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=Vacante+Dormer&btnG=Search+Books
The Family History Library does not have this will on microfilm. The
will is held by the following repository:
Canterbury Cathedral Library
The Precincts
Canterbury
Kent CT1 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1227 865287
Fax: +44 (0)1227 865222
E-mail: arch...@canterbury-cathedral.org
jhigg...@yahoo.com
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The royal descent set forth below for the immigrant, Edward Howell
> (1584-1655), of Southampton, Long Island has been a work in progress
> for many years. The line, albeit in a different form, was originally
> brought to my attention by the late Dr. David Faris, who was a lineal
> descendant of Edward Howell. From the start, a variety of problems
> were encountered in attempting to document the line. While not every
> single problem has been resolved, the evidence seems to clearly
> indicate that Edward Howell's Dormer ancestors were descended from
> Ralph de Arundel, an illegitimate son of a member of the noble house
> of Arundel. For the reasons stated below, I believe Ralph de Arundel
> was an illegitimate son of Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and
> Surrey (died 1376).
>
> The unique arms of Ralph de Arundel are discussed in various heraldic
> sources, among them Montague, Guide to the Study of Heraldry (1840):
> 43–44. This material may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=mp8KFMcjjyMC&pg=PA44&dq=%22Radulphus...
[snip of later generations]
The first paragraph of this lengthy post states the following: “From
the start, a variety of problems were encountered in attempting to
document the line. While not every single problem has been resolved,
the evidence seems to clearly indicate that Edward Howell's Dormer
ancestors were descended from Ralph de Arundel, an illegitimate son of
a member of the noble house of Arundel.”
The first part of this statement is clearly correct: there are a
variety of problems in this line, and not every problem has been
resolved. The second part is NOT correct: the evidence does NOT
“clearly indicate” a Dormer descent from a member of the “noble house
of Arundel”. At best it’s a hypothesis, which cannot be proven and
can only be considered in comparison with other hypotheses that have
been advanced in the past and with an appropriate evaluation of ALL
the sources.
If this piece were being submitted for publication in one of the
recognized genealogical journals (NEHGR, TAG, TG, Foundations), it’s
unlikely that it would pass muster for publication, since it fails to
fully and fairly evaluate the issue, including other hypotheses, and
to appropriately discuss the many contradictions between its
conclusion and the statements of the many sources it cites. When the
whole issue of the supposed Dormer ancestry is evaluated objectively –
setting aside the attempt to develop a royal connection for some
colonial immigrant – it has much the air of a genealogical invention
of the type that was quite common in Tudor and Stuart England.
An examination of even some of the cited sources reveals a number of
difficulties with the conclusions reached in the post, primarily due
to overlooking or glossing over differences between the cited sources
and the conclusions reached. Some of these difficulties are noted
below. The sources referenced below are drawn exclusively from those
listed in the original post; they are described in detail there and
need not be repeated here. Since the author of the original post
chose not to associate specific statements or assertions with
particular sources, I have followed his practice here.
A. The Dormer association with Fitzalan/Arundel heraldry upon which
the post’s conclusion depends may simply be a later invention by Tudor
or Stuart heralds. As one of the cited sources puts it, “It is
noteworthy….that there is no Arundel or Arundell coat included [on the
Dormer monuments] until pedigrees of the 17th century, an age when the
heralds were notorious for their venality, inaccuracy and powers of
flattery.”
B. Assuming one accepts the Fitzalan/Arundel heraldry connection to
the Dormers, one heraldic expert (discussed and cited in the original
post) makes a case that “Radulphus de Arundel” was an illegitimate son
of a daughter of the Arundels. This possibility, apparently based on
a proper understanding of heraldry, is lightly dismissed in the
current post with the unsupported statement that “bastard sons in this
time period USUALLY bore the surname of their father” [emphasis
added”.
C. If Ralph/Radulphus de Arundel is in fact the point of connection
for this link with the Dormers, the post should more fully discuss the
differing parentages offered for Ralph in at least some of the cited
sources. The alternatives may be weak, but they should at least be
considered and evaluated explicitly.
D. A number of the cited sources (perhaps a majority) say that the
Dormer connection is to the family of Arundell [of Cornwall], not
Fitzalan/Arundel, and one source makes a plausible case for this
alternative, based on the descent of certain property This
possibility is not mentioned at all in the text of the post.
E. Whether the purported Dormer connection is to Fitzalan/Arundel or
to Arundell, there is no discussion at all of the repeated statement
in several of the sources that the Collingridge family (immediate
ancestors of the Dormers) were “heirs general” of Arundel or
Arundell. This seems very suspicious (especially in the case of
Fitzalan/Arundel where the connection if any is through an
illegitimate line) and suggests strongly that the connection is
concocted.
F. The Collingridge daughter who married Geoffrey Dormer is in many,
if not most, of the cited sources called Ursula, not Alice, and is
said to be a daughter, not granddaughter, of Bartholomew Collingridge
who married Alice Arundel or Arundell. These discrepancies obviously
don’t affect the purported descent, but they do raise issues about the
various sources and the details of the proposed descent which have not
been addressed by the original post.
My point in all of this is to emphasize that this is definitely not a
case where “the evidence seems to clearly indicate” the proposed royal
connection, as asserted in the original post. At best it’s
questionable, and at worst it’s quite possibly just a genealogical
creation of the Tudor or Stuart period. It’s certainly misleading to
represent it as a firm and proven line – perhaps for inclusion in
one’s next published book?
I’ll sit back now and await the inevitable onslaught of bombast and
personal attacks from Salt Lake City… :-)
royala...@msn.com
I've considered all the points you've raised. I believe the line is
sound as stated.
As for the name of Geoffrey Dormer's second wife, her name was clearly
Alice Collingridge, not Ursula Collingridge. She was the mother of
his four younger surviving sons, Geoffrey, Gent., Michael, Knt.,
Peter, and Edward, Esq., and five daughters, including Alice (wife of
Thomas Crocker).
Alice Collingridge's name is proven by a grant of arms made to her
son, Geoffrey Dormer the younger, in which Alice Collingridge is
specifically named as his mother. Alice is also named in a fine made
by Geoffrey Dormer late in his life. Likewise she is named on the
monumental brass of her husband with the Collingridge arms above her
head. So there can be no doubt as to her name.
I'm not sure how the name Ursula made its way into the 1634 visitation
of Buckinghamshire. But, as with all visitations, they should be
verified where possible with contemporary records.
jhigg...@yahoo.com
Your response partially addresses one of the issues I raised. As to
the remainder of that issue and the several other issues I mentioned,
as well as the over-all soundness of the proposed line, a difference
of opinion will remain pending further information. Interested
readers can conduct their own research and make their own judgments,
taking into account all opinions on the subject. So be it...at least
appropriate red flags have been raised regarding this questionable
line.
Nathaniel Taylor
<1e3c1932-d43f-4c44...@e5g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 16. JOHN CROCKER, Gent., afterwards Esq., of Hook Norton, Oxfordshire,
> > Sheriff of Oxfordshire, 1562, son and heir. He married (1st) ISABEL
> > SKINNER, daughter of Robert Skinner, of Alcester, Warwickshire. They
> > had three sons, John, Gerard, Knt., and Richard, and five daughters,
> > Margery (wife of Henry Stratford and Rowland Baughe), Alice (wife of
>
> I guess this line would run to Thomas Baugh of Virginia as well, if it
> can be proved.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=jLUEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA64&dq=%22raphael+hunt&lr=#P
> PA10,M1
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=jx0SAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22thomas+baugh%22+vi
> rginia&lr=#PPA42,M1
>
> Does T.B. of Virginia have any descendants?
It looks like his cousin William might. See
http://www.creativeconsulting.com/tandp/tree/William_Baugh_1610.html
which cites a lot of stuff.
Good catch; whether or not William Baugh's relation to Thomas Baugh and
this Worcestershire family can be proved, Thomas Baugh isn't in the
'Roll of Arms' and should be.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
