Apparent CP/DD Conflict (de Lisle)
Gordon Kirkemo
If I'm reading things correctly, I found a possible conflict between CP and
DD concerning the ancestry of the de Lisle family.
The problem originates with a search I was doing on the British History
Online site involving the VCH History of Cambridge. I was searching for
information concerning the Picots of Quy and Waterbeach, and found some
manors that passed down to the de Lisle family.
Under the section for the Manor of Rampton, I found that Eustace Picot
granted 1 knight's fee to Ralph, chamberlain of Bishop Niel of Ely. This
Ralph is described as "ancestor of the Lisles." About 1212 Robert de Lisle
held this fee of the bishop of Ely. A second Robert is identified as his
son who, in turn, was the father of Warin. This line became the Lord Lisles
of Rougemont according to this description.
Under the section for the Manor of Westwick, I found that Picot, the Sheriff
of Cambridge had as a tenant, Odo, evidently the chamberlain of Count Alan
in Cambridgeshire. The description further states, "One of Odo's
granddaughters and eventual heirs married Robert de Lisle...".
Now, in CP Vol. VIII, Sub Lisle, there is a chart showing the descent of
Lisle of Rougemont and Lisle of Kingston Lisle. The second Robert de Insula
is shown with a wife named Beatrice de Cormeilles, who according to the
chart is the daughter of Ralph, sewer to the Earl of Richmond. This is also
reported on page 69 in the text for Lisle of Rougemont.
In DD (page 200), I find Robert Camerarius, Chamberlain to earl Conan of
Richmond, and son and successor to Odo Camerarius. He is described as
having three sons and four daughters. The daughters were his eventual
heirs, and one of them is identified as Beatrice, wife of (1) Richard de
Cormeilles and (2) of Robert de Lisle. I also find a Radulf Camerarius
identified as chamberlain to Earl Conan with no additional information
concerning parentage or children.
There seems to be consensus that Robert de Lisle/Insula had a wife named
Beatrice. What isn't clear is her father and ancestry. It seems possible
that Camerarius and Cormeilles might both be derivatives of Chamberlain, but
that is only a wild guess on my part. But at least two descents seem
possible:
First:
1. Odo, chamberlain to Count Alan (identified as Odo Camerarius in DP, page
308)
2. Robert Camerarius, chamberlain to Count Conan
3. Beatrice wife of Robert de Lisle
Or, Second:
1. Odo, same as #1 above
2. Ralph de Cormeilles
3. Beatrice, same as #3 above
I can't help but wonder how the reported first husband (Richard de
Cormeilles) might figure into this. I'm hoping you can straighten this out
for me. I look forward to hearing further from you.
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
Chris Phillips
Gordon Kirkemo wrote:
...
> Now, in CP Vol. VIII, Sub Lisle, there is a chart showing the descent of
> Lisle of Rougemont and Lisle of Kingston Lisle. The second Robert de
Insula
> is shown with a wife named Beatrice de Cormeilles, who according to the
> chart is the daughter of Ralph, sewer to the Earl of Richmond. This is
also
> reported on page 69 in the text for Lisle of Rougemont.
>
> In DD (page 200), I find Robert Camerarius, Chamberlain to earl Conan of
> Richmond, and son and successor to Odo Camerarius. He is described as
> having three sons and four daughters. The daughters were his eventual
> heirs, and one of them is identified as Beatrice, wife of (1) Richard de
> Cormeilles and (2) of Robert de Lisle. I also find a Radulf Camerarius
> identified as chamberlain to Earl Conan with no additional information
> concerning parentage or children.
I can't resolve the conflict (though CP does have a definite citation that's
meant to show that the Robert de Lisle of c. 1207 was a grandson of Ralph
the sewer, and DD gives enough references that the evidence may become
clearer).
I do think the chronology of the DD version is very strange. Combining the
entry for Robert Camerarius on p. 200 with that for Ricardus de Cormeilles
on pp. 410, 411, it seems we have (with other siblings, omitted):
1. Odo, Domesday tenant 1086
2. His son Robert, succeeded by 1129/30
3. His daughter Beatrice, married first to Richard de Cormeilles (active by
1134, d. either 1175/6 [p. 411] or 1177 [p. 200]), then remarried to Robert
de Lisle and (if CP is to be believed) bearing him a child.
I don't know which bit is likely to be wrong, but I find it very difficult
to believe.
> It seems possible
> that Camerarius and Cormeilles might both be derivatives of Chamberlain,
but
> that is only a wild guess on my part.
Camerarius is certainly latin for Chamberlain, but Cormeilles is a place
name (Eure, arrondissement Point-Audemer, according to DP 155).
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
This has not been an easy one to answer, but thanks to the aid of Chris
Phillips (who by rights should be writing this post as he came up with the
information and conclusions), this confusing problem may be simplified by
examining the sources. Because of the length of this answer, the post is
being split into two.
There are three conflicting accounts about the ancestry of Robert de Insula
and this is compounded by the fact that we have consecutive Robert de
Insulas for whom there are no clear dates. What we find is:
1.He was the grandson of Ralph the steward of the earl of Richmond.[CP VIII
p.71 note (f).; Clay, EYC vol 5 p.20]
2.He was the grandson of Robert the Chamberlain [DD 200 - Robert Camerarius;
Farrer, Feudal Cambridgeshire p.147]
3.He was the grandson of Ralph, chamberlain to the bishop of Ely [VCH Cambs.
vol. IX, p.109, 212; vol X, p.306]
This post deals with the first two versions and the following post will look
at the third version.
1.CP and Clay give that Robert de Insula was grandson of Ralph, steward of
the earl of Richmond and refer to a curia regis suit as evidence, the text
of which Chris has kindly provided. In 1208 Saher de Quincy attempted to sue
Robert for the advowson of the church of Wimpole as his inheritance and
belonging to his land there, which Saher his grandfather was seised in the
time of Henry II. Robert's attorney, Robert of Wenhaston, said that Conan,
lord of the honor of Richmond, gave the advowson to Ralph the steward,
grandfather of the said Robert, by his charter which he produced as evidence
and Conan's heirs ought to warrant him but were in the king's custody. The
suit was unsuccessful as the king did not wish it to proceed.
Curia Regis Rolls, vol. 5, p. 231
Roll 48, Trinity Term 10 John, m. 8
Headed: A die sancte Trinitatis in iij. septimanas
"Cantebr'. - Comes Segerus petit versus Robertum de Insula advocacionem
ecclesie de Winepol ut jus et hereditatem suam et ut illam que pertinet ad
terram suam quam habet in eadem villa et unde Segerus avus ejus seisitus
fuit ut de feodo et jure tempore Henrici regis patris, ita quod Henricus de
Orewell' clericus, tunc persona illius ecclesie per presentacionem ipsius
Segeri, inde cepit expleta ad valenciam x. solidorum et plus; et hoc offert
etc. per quendam liberum hominem suum etc. Et Gaufridus de Wenlaveston'
attornatus ipsius Roberti defendit jus suum; et dicit quod Conanus dominus
de honore Richemund' dedit advocacionem illius ecclesie Radulfo Dapifero avo
ipsius Roberti per cartam suam, quam protulit et que donum testatur; et
heredes ejusdem Conani debent illam advocacionem ei warantizare; et sunt in
custodia domini regis, ita quod ipse non potest illos habere; et, si hoc non
sufficit, ipse ponit se in magnam assisam et petit recognicionem fieri uter
illorum majus jus habeat in illa advocacione. Dominus rex non vult quod
loquela illa procedat: et ideo sine die."
Conan was earl of Richmond from 1156 to 1166 at the time Ralph son of Roger
held the Steward's fee, and CP and Clay interpret this to mean that Robert
de Insula was the grandson of Ralph, steward of the earl of Richmond. The
Stewards fee is discussed by Clay in EYC 5 pp.17-39 and the descent given as
follows:
1 Wimar the Steward d. bef 1130
2.Roger the Steward d.c. 1145
3.Ralph the Steward d. bef. 1195
4. Wimar d.s.p. bef Oct 1195
4. Roger de Thornton d bef 1206, had issue
4. NN
+ NN
5. Robert de Lisle fl 1208
2. Warner the Steward
3.Wimar
+ Helewise
4.Beatrice
+ Hugh Malebisse
2. The second version about Robert de Insula comes from DD 200 and Farrer,
Feudal Cambridgeshire, p.121, the former giving:
"Camerarius, Robert
Chamberlain of earl Conan of Richmond, son and successor of Odo (q.v.)
camerarius by 1129/30. Two of his three sons Wihomar, George and Nigel
succeeded him, but died without issue. Robert's eventual heirs were his
daughters Theophania wife of Theobald fitz Fulk (d.1199), Jueta wife of
Conan, Beatrice wife of Richard de Cormeille (d. 1177) and then of Robert de
Lisle, and Matilda wife of Alexander de Brito."
[Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters (1935), IV, nos 9, 19-20, 30-31, 33, 66 ;
Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters (1936), V nos 129, 242, 279-80, 377;
Greenway, Charters of the Honour of Mowbray (1972), no. 18; Pipe Roll 31
Henry I, 27-ynb]"
Clay discusses the descent of the Chamberlain's fee in EYC 5 pp.169-179
given below. The fee consisted of 2 1/2 knight's fees in Richmondshire -
Eppleby, Kirkby Fleetham, Great and Little Fencote and Langthorne (given to
St Mary's, York), 1 fee in Holland, Lincs, 1 in Malton in Orwell, 1 in
Swaffham, 2 in Bridlingham in Chippenham, 1 in Oxcroft, 1 in Great
Wilbraham, 1 in Wendy, the latter all being in Cambridgeshire.
1.Odo the Chamberlain tenant of Count Alan in 1086 d. by 1130
2.Robert the Chamberlain, fl 1156-1158, founder of Denny priory in
Waterbeach, Cambs., a cell of Ely. He became a monk at Ely before his death.
3. Wimar the Chamberlain d.v.p.s.p.
3. Nigel succeeded father, d.s.p.c 1191
3. George d.s.p.
Robert had several daughters who were, or in their issue, the heirs to the
Chamberlain fee. They appear to include:
3.Maud d.s.p.,wife of Alexander le Breton [EYC 5 no. 277. Charter of
gift of land in Kirkby to Marrick priory]
3.Tiffany, wife of Theobald fitz Fulk (d.1199, DD 888), mother of
Fulk fitz Theobald, and grandmother of Ralph fitz Fulk
3.Avice, wife of NN Engaine, mother of Robert Engaine
3.Beatrice, wife of Richard de Cormeilles (d.1175/76, DD 410) mother
of Walter de Cormeilles d.1203/4 who left four daughters and coheirs (Alice
wife of Thomas son of William de Middleton and Godfery de Craucombe,
Sybil wife of Hugh Giffard and Ralph Belet, Margaret wife of Walter de
Stoke, Albreda wife of Richard le Brun) with landed
interests in Kirkby Fleetham in 1208. In 1236 the Giffards via Sibyl appear
to have been the only one to have had an interest in
Wilbraham and Wendy, Cambs. Said to be mother of Robert de Insula in
CP and DD.
3.Jueta, wife of Conan de Mansfield son of Torfin son of Robert by
an unknown wife. Jueta was mother of Henry son of Conan of Kelfield and
Liverton, and grandmother of Conan son of Henry [EYC
5 p. 54]
3.NN mother of Roger Chacemoine (aka Sansmanche, Sine Manica)
3.NN, wife of Hervey son of Acaris (d.c.1184, DD 858) son of Acaris
son of Bardulf progenitor of the fitz Hughs of Ravensworth, mother of Henry
son of Hervey. While it is noted that the Mansfield family
quitclaimed their interest in the Cambridge fees to Henry son of Hervey of
Ravensworth around 1200, they appear to have
retained their Yorkshire interest in Appleby and Great and Little Fencote,
the former of which they held jointly with the fitz Hughs of Ravensworth and
Stacey Coleman in 1284 [Feudal Aids vol. VI, p.96]. Tentative
evidence that Hervey of Ravensworth was married to a daughter of Robert the
Chamberlain is found in a charter in which Hervey and his
wife and daughter give moorland for grazing in Ravensworth and Kirkby
[Fleetham] to Marrick priory 1154-1158. The first two witness of the
gift are Robert the Chamberlain and Warner son of Wimar who is possibly of
Robert's wife's family [EYC 5 no.377].
In the late 1190s Fulk son of Theobald, Henry son of Hervey, Roger sine
Mantica, Dame Avice, and Walter de Cormeilles were holding equal parts in a
moiety of the manor of Wilbrahim and in Wendy as coheirs of the
Chamberlain's fee. In 1236 Robert de Insula was holding the other moiety in
socage, and Ralph son of Fulk and Ralph and John sons of Henry were the
heirs of the tenants in 1190 [Farrer, Feudal Cambridge, p.122].
Farrer, Feudal Cambridgeshire, p. 121 puts a different slant on the pedigree
1. Odo, chamberlain of Richmond, 1086
2. Hugh? the chamberlain
3. Robert the chamberlain, 1130 ; founder of Dennye; d ante 1165
4.Wihomarc occ ante 1146
4.Ralph the chamberlain d.1175
4.George d. ante 1175
4.Nigel son of the chamberlain succ. 1175 d. temp Ric I s.p.
4.Matilda
+ Theobald
5.Fulk occ.1204
+ Alex le Breton occ 1191
4.Theophania
+ Abraham Chacemoine
5 Geoffrey de Coleburn occ.1204
4.Beatrice de Cormeilles
+ NN
5. Alice de Cormeilles
+ Robert de Insula
4. dau.
+ Conan
5.Henry fitz-Conan
4. Amicia occ. 1191
+ ?Richard Engayne d ante 1191
5. Robert Engayne occ. 1191
Third version to follow
Rosie