Re: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of Sir Elias d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney

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Patricia Junkin

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Nov 19, 2006, 1:14:57 PM11/19/06
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thank you, Douglas, for this information.
Although circumstantial evidence exists, I have yet to properly place Elena
Daubeney who married Nicholas de Vipont, b. 1320, d. 1362. Elena may have
first married John de Moriceby. Her IPM states she died seized of the Manor
of Johnby and Blair Southerdon has posted material concerning the manor of
Johnby and the Kirketon connection. There was a case in "42 Edward III
during the plea in Chancery, by writ of scire fcias between John, son of
Robert de Kirketon, and Thomas, son of Thomas de Ughtred, as to which was
the heir of Gregory de Burdon, to whom the wardship of the manor of Jonby
ought to belong." Although, we have considered that Elena was an heir, I am
beginning to doubt that since by some means Sir John de Lancastre had sold
the fees to Nicholas and Elena Vipont sometime previously and when their son
Robert died in 1371 he held the manor of Johnby "of John de Kirketon, heir
of Gregory Burdon by homage and fealty rendering 5 s 3 d for cornage. He
was seised thereof by a feoffment made by John de Lancastre, knight, to
Nicholas his father and Ellen his mother and the heirs of their bodies."
Johnby continues to be held by Vipont heirs to later generations.
Some sources state Elena was the daughter of Robert Daubeney.
do you find mention of a Robert in this line.
Thank you,
Pat
----------
>From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
>To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
>Subject: Complete Peerage Addition: Iseult de Sulney, mother of Sir Elias
d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney
>Date: Sun, 19, 2006, 1:52 AM
>

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The authoritative Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 93-96 (sub Daubeney) has
> a good account of the life and ancestry of Sir Ellis (or Elias)
> d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney (died 1305), of South Ingleby, Lincolnshire,
> South Petherton, Somerset, etc., seigneur of Landal in Brittany.
> Complete Peerage identifies Lord Daubeney's parents as Sir Ralph
> d'Aubeney (died 1292), of South Ingleby, Lincolnshire, South Petherton,
> Barrington, and Chillington, Somerset, etc., seigneur of Landal in
> Brittany, and his wife, Isabel (living 1294), which Isabel is of
> unknown parentage.
>
> Recently I came acrioss an abstract of a lawsuit dated Easter term
> 1295, between Sir Elias d'Aubeney and John de Wilington, regarding
> various lands in Lantegulos, Ussa et Fawinton', Cornwall, formerly held
> by Andrew de Sulney, late kinsman [consanguineus] of Sir Elias
> d'Aubeney. Sir Elias's exact kinship to Andrew de Sulney is set forth
> in the lawsuit. Elias' mother, Iseult (or Isolde), is stated to be the
> daughter and heiress of Joldewyn [de Sulney], which Joldeyn was the son
> and heir of John [de Sulney], brother of Ralph [de Sulney], father of
> Andrew de Sulney.
>
> Thus it would appear that Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother was Iseult (or
> Isolde) de Sulney, daughter and heiress of Joldewyn de Sulney. Iseult
> (or Isolde) de Sulney was evidently the first wife of Sir Ralph
> d'Aubeney, as Sir Ralph is known to have been survived at his death by
> a [2nd] wife, Isabel, as stated by Complete Peerage.
>
> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
> World colonists who descend from Sir Elias d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney:
>
> Dorothy Beresford, Charles Calvert, Anne Humphrey, John Nelson, Herbert
> Pelham, Edward Raynsford, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, John
> West, Margaret Wyatt.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> + + + + + + + + + + +
>
> ABSTRACT OF LAWSUIT DATED EASTER 1295
> Source:
> http://www.sd-editions.com/AnaServer?PROMEeg+52760+textframe.anv
>
> Cornub'. Elyas de Albiniaco per attornatum suum petit versus Johannem
> de Wyllynton' duo mesuagia, centum quaterviginti et quinque acras
> terre, quaterviginti et duas acras bosci, centum acras more, decem
> libratas, undecim solidatas et septem denariatas redditus et redditum
> unius ovis matricis, unius agni, unius hoggastry, unius libre cumini,
> unius paris calcarium deauratorum, duorum parium cirotecarum,
> percussionis ferramenti unius caruce et medietatem unius acre prati cum
> pertinenciis in Lantegulos, Ussa et Fawinton' de quibus Andreas de
> Sulny, consangineus predicti Elie, cujus heres ipse est, fuit seisitus
> in dominico suo ut de feodo die quo obiit etc. Et unde dicit quod
> predictus Andreas, consanguineus etc., fuit seisitus de predictis
> tenementis cum pertinenciis in dominico suo ut de feodo tempore pacis
> tempore domini \Henrici regis, patris domini/ regis nunc, capiendo inde
> explecia ad valenciam etc. et inde obiit seisitus etc. Et de ipso
> Andrea, quia obiit sine herede de se, resorciebatur feodum etc. cuidam
> Johanni ut avunculo et heredi, fratri cujusdam Radulphi, patris ipsius
> Andree; et de ipso Johanne descendit feodum etc. cuidam Joldewyno ut
> filio et heredi etc.; et de ipso Joldewyno cuidam Isolde ut filie et
> heredi; et de ipsa Isolda cuidam Philippo ut filio et heredi; et de
> ipso Philippo, quia obiit sine herede de se, descendit feodum etc. isti
> Elye qui nunc petit ut fratri et heredi. Et inde producit sectam etc.
>
> Et Johannes per attornatum suum venit. Et dicit quod non debet ei inde
> respondere quia dicit quod, cum predictus Elyas asserit feodum etc.
> predictorum tenementorum resortiri de predicto Andrea, de cujus seisina
> etc., predicto Johanni ut avunculo et heredi, fratri predicti Radulphi
> patris etc., idem Radulphus nuncquam aliquem fratrem habuit, Johannem
> nomine, heredem ipsius Andree, natum sive nutritum, visum aut cognitum
> infra quatuor maria Anglie. Et de hoc ponit se super patriam; unde
> petit judicium etc.
>
> Et Elyas dicit quod ipse clamat predicta tenementa ut illa de quibus
> predictus Andreas, consanguineus etc., obiit seisitus in dominico suo
> ut de feodo et que predictus Johannes modo tenet, narrando quod de ipso
> Andrea resorciebatur feodum etc. predicto Johanni ut avunculo et heredi
> etc. simpliciter absque aliqua adjeccione, quem quidem resortum paratus
> est verificare sicut curia consideraverit; unde cum de responsione per
> predictum Johannem facta diversi possunt elici intellectus et sic
> excepcio sua videtur ambigua, duplex et incerta, petit judicium si
> excepcio illa in forma qua eam pretendit sit admittenda etc.
>
> Et Johannes, ut prius, dicit quod predictus Radulphus pater etc.
> nuncquam habuit aliquem fratrem, Johannem nomine, qui visus fuit, natus
> aut nutritus infra quatuor maria Anglie vel qui heres predicti Andree,
> de cujus seisina etc., tentus fuit aut cognitus nec eciam predictus
> Joldewynus, cui predictus Elyas dicit feodum predicti tenementi
> descendisse ut filio et heredi, visus fuit etc., nutritus aut cognitus.
> Et hoc paratus est verificare per patriam; unde, desicut curia ista in
> hujusmodi casu ulterius non potest nec debet responsionem sive
> excepcionem aliquam admittere quam illam de qua rei veritas per ipsam
> curiam poterit inquiri seu cognosci petit judicium etc. Et, si hoc non
> sufficit, dicet aliud.
>
> Dies datus est eis de audiendo judicio suo hic a die sancti Michaelis
> in tres septimanas etc."
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Douglas Richardson

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Nov 20, 2006, 12:36:02 PM11/20/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

The authoritative Complete Peerage, 4 (1916): 93-96 (sub Daubeney) has
a good account of the life and ancestry of Sir Ellis (or Elias)
d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney (died 1305), of South Ingleby, Lincolnshire,
South Petherton, Somerset, etc., seigneur of Landal in Brittany.
Complete Peerage identifies Lord Daubeney's parents as Sir Ralph
d'Aubeney (died 1292), of South Ingleby, Lincolnshire, South Petherton,
Barrington, and Chillington, Somerset, etc., seigneur of Landal in
Brittany, and his wife, Isabel (living 1294), which Isabel is of
unknown parentage.

Recently I came acrioss an abstract of a lawsuit dated Easter term
1295, between Sir Elias d'Aubeney and John de Wilington, regarding

various lands in Lanteglos, Husse, and Fawton, Cornwall, formerly held


by Andrew de Sulney, late kinsman [consanguineus] of Sir Elias
d'Aubeney. Sir Elias's exact kinship to Andrew de Sulney is set forth
in the lawsuit. Elias' mother, Iseult (or Isolde), is stated to be the
daughter and heiress of Joldewyn [de Sulney], which Joldeyn was the son
and heir of John [de Sulney], brother of Ralph [de Sulney], father of
Andrew de Sulney.

Thus it would appear that Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother was Iseult (or
Isolde) de Sulney, daughter and heiress of Joldewyn de Sulney. Iseult
(or Isolde) de Sulney was evidently the first wife of Sir Ralph

d'Aubeney, and the mother of his three sons, Philip, Knt., William, and
Ellis (or Elias), Knt. As indicated by Complete Peerage, Sir Ralph
d'Aubeney was survived at his death by a wife named Isabel. Iseult can
not be the same person as Isabel, as the 1295 lawsuit indicates that
Iseult predeceased her elder son, Philip d'Aubeney, whereas Isabel, the
surviving wife of Ralph, was still living at Philip's death in 1294.
Philip's heir in 1294 was his younger brother, Ellis d'Aubeney, the
plaintiff in the 1295 lawsuit.

Elsewhere I find that Excerpta e Rotulis Finium, vol. II (1836): 320
indicates that Andrew de Sulney [Sulleny] died before 7 January 1260.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World colonists who descend from Sir Elias d'Aubeney, Lord Daubeney:

Dorothy Beresford, Charles Calvert, Anne Humphrey, John Nelson, Herbert

Pelham, Edward Raynsford, Mary Johanna Somerset (two descents), John
Stockman, John West, Margaret Wyatt, George Yate.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + +

ABSTRACT OF LAWSUIT DATED EASTER 1295
Source:
http://www.sd-editions.com/AnaServer?PROMEeg+52760+textframe.anv

Cornwall. Ellis d'Albigny through his attorney makes claim against John
of Willington to two messuages, one hundred and eight five acres of
arable, eighty-two acres of wood, one hundred acres of moorland, ten
pounds, eleven shillings and seven pence rent and the rent of one ewe,
one lamb and one hoggaster, one pound of cumin and one pair of gilt
spurs, two pairs of gloves, the casting of the ironwork of one plough
and to the moiety of an acre of meadow with appurtenances in Lanteglos,
Husse and Fawton of which Andrew de Sulny, the kinsman of the said
Ellis, whose heir he is, was seised in his demesne as of fee on the day
he died etc. He says that the said Andrew, his kinsman, was seised of
the said tenements with appurtenances in his demesne as of fee in time
of peace, in the reign of the lord king Henry, the father of the
present king, receiving from them income to the value etc. and died
seised of them etc. From the same Andrew, because he had died without
an heir of his body, the fee etc. resorted to one John as uncle and
heir, the brother of one Ralph the father of the same Andrew; and from
the same John the fee etc. descended to one Joldewyn as son and heir
etc.; and from the same Joldewyn to one Isolda as daughter and heir;
and from the same Isolda to one Philip as son and heir; and from the
same Philip, because he died without an heir of his body, the fee etc.
descended to this Ellis, who is now claiming, as brother and heir. He
produces suit in support of this etc.

John appears through his attorney. He says that he is not obliged to
answer him on this because, whereas the said Ellis asserts the fee etc.
of the said tenements resorted from the said Andrew, on whose seisin
etc., to the said John as uncle and heir, the brother of the said
Ralph, the father etc., the same Ralph never had any brother named
John, the heir of the same Andrew, born or raised, seen or known within
the four seas of England. He puts himself on this on a jury and so asks
for judgment etc.

Ellis says that he claims the said tenements as those of which his
kinsman Andrew etc. died seised in his demesne as of fee and which the
said John now holds, counting that from the same Andrew the fee etc.
resorted to the said John as uncle and heir etc. simply and without any
qualification, which resort he is ready to prove as the court should
adjudge and since various interpretations can be put on the response
made by John and thus his response seems ambiguous, double and
uncertain he asks for judgment whether the exception in the form in
which he offers it is admissible etc.

John says, as before, that the said Ralph the father etc. never had any
brother named John who was seen, born or raised within the four seas of
England or who was held or known as the heir of the said Andrew, on
whose seisin etc., nor was the said Joldewyn, to whom the said Ellis
says the fee of the said tenement descended as son and heir, seen etc.,
raised or known. He is ready to prove this by the jury. Since this
court in such a case neither can nor ought admit any response or
exception than that of which the truth can be discovered or known by
that court he asks for judgment etc. If this does not suffice he will
say something else.

They are adjourned to hear their judgment here three weeks after
Michaelmas etc.

Louise Staley

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Nov 20, 2006, 11:35:03 PM11/20/06
to
What an interesting find posted by Douglas Richardson of a lawsuit
concerning the wife of the wife of Ralph Daubeney. The identifaication
of the mother of Sir Helié Daubeney as Iseult Sulney raises an
interesting question.

There is a Cornish family, named Sulney/Soligny with links to the
Willingtons of this period.

**HIGHLY SPECULATIVE GENEALOGY FOLLOWS**

1-Son Soligny
+
|--2-Emma Soligny
| +Jordan Champernoun d. Bef 1214
| |--3-William Champernoun b. Abt 1203, d. After 1230, s.p.m.
| +Eva Blancminster heiress
| |--4-Joan Champernoun heiress d. After 1286
| +Ralph Willington d. Between Apr 1255 and Jul 1260
| |--5-Ralph Willington b. Abt 1239, d. Bef 15 Oct 1294
| +Juliana Lumene Heiress d. After 1299
| |--6-Henry Willington d. 2 Oct 1323
|--2-Isolda Soligny d. Bef 1265
+Andrew Cardinham d. Abt 1253
|--3-Isolda Cardinham b. Abt 1235, d. Between 3 Nov 1276 and 24
| Jan 1277
+Thomas Tracy d. Between 1266 and 1268
+William Ferrers d. Between 1269 and 1270

As you can see my details are sketchy and sources not apparent in my
database, however I wonder if in fact Iseult Sulney fits into the
Soligny family where Isolda/Iseult is a known woman's name?

Similarly, from the lawsuit (Source:
http://www.sd-editions.com/AnaServer?PROMEeg+52760+textframe.anv)

1-Son Soligny
+
|--2-John Soligny
| +
| |--3-Joldewyn Soligny
| +
| |--4-Isolda Soligny
| +Ralph Daubeney b. Abt 1214, d. Bef 25 Jan 1292
| |--5-Philip Daubeney d. , s.p.
| |--5-Sir Helié Daubeney Baron Daubeney 1st b. Between 1261
| | and 1264, Guernsey, CHI, d. Bef 8 Apr 1305, (Guernsey,
| | CHI)
| |--5-Eleanor Daubeney
|--2-Ralph Soligny
+
|--3-Andrew Soligny d. Bef 7 Jan 1260, s.p.

The too neat solution would be to say Isolda Soligny married Andrew
Cardinham first, he died about 1253 then she married Ralph Daubeney and
had at least three sons and perhaps a daughter Eleanor before she died
before 1265 leaving Ralph free to marry Isabel unknown.

As I said this is speculation, I have nothing more in terms of sources
to add but it is interesting isn't it?

Louise

Douglas Richardson

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Nov 21, 2006, 2:22:10 AM11/21/06
to
Dear Louise ~

I believe the last male representative of the Soligny (or Sulney)
family of Cornwall was Geoffrey de Soligny, who died in 1265, leaving
unidentified sisters "some of whom were married in Cornwall and some in
Brittany." (Cal. IPM, 1: 629). In 1999 Ronny Bodine said "the sisters,
as per Cal. IPM, 4: no. 82 were Iseult de Sulenny (aka Isolda de
Soligny) and Emma de Sulenny (aka Emma de Soligny). This latter IPM
was actually concerned with the manor of Fawton [in St. Neot],
Cornwall, originally held by Andrew de Soligny and then Geoffrey de
Soligny, which manor evolved to the heirs of Geoffrey's sisters, as
both were dead."

As far as I know, until now no one has known of the 1295 lawsuit in
which Sir Elias d'Aubeney claimed rights to property at Fawton,
Cornwall as heir to his mother, Iseult de Soligny, wife of Sir Ralph
d'Aubeney, seigneur of Landal in Brittany. Without knowing further
particulars, I think it is safe to say that you might be correct that
Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Sulney (or Soligny), could well be
the same person as Geoffrey de Soligny's known sister, Iseult de
Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

This matter deserves further study.

Douglas Richardson

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Nov 21, 2006, 3:59:58 AM11/21/06
to
Dear Louise ~

Since replying to your post earlier this evening, I've had the
opportunity to study published abstracts of original documents which
pertain to the history of the Soligny (or Sulney) family of Brittany
and Cornwall. I find that the documents confirm the pedigree set forth
by Elias d'Aubeney as given in his lawsuit dated 1295.

Furthermore, it appears that Elias d'Aubeney's maternal grandmother was
Eleanor de Vitre, niece of the earlier and better known Eleanor de
Vitre, Countess of Salisbury in England. As such, it would seem that
Elias d'Aubeney possesses many new valid royal descents.

As best I can tell, the documents shed no light on whether or not Elias
d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Soligny, was the same person as Iseult de
Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham. If the two women were the same
person, then the ancestry of Andrew de Cardinham's wife would
necessarily have to be altered.

When time permits, I'll post a synopsis of my research findings.

John P. Ravilious

unread,
Nov 21, 2006, 6:36:57 AM11/21/06
to
Dear Louise, Douglas, et al.,

I believe that further investigation will find that Isolda de
Soligny left two daughters (by Andrew de Cardinham) as her coheirs:
Isolda, and Emma. The tenure of Fawton (or Faweton), Cornwall traces
to Sir Walter de Treverbyn, g grandson of Emma; the lands of Isolda
wound up through extraordinary circumstances in the hands of the
Dinhams. There appears to have been no male issue of Isolda de
Soligny.

It seems most likely there is a collateral line of this family
which will provide the answer. Given the name Isolda/Iseult, I would
wager there is a near kinswoman (possibly first cousin) who also was
given the name Isolda de Soligny.

Cheers,

John

Douglas Richardson

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Nov 22, 2006, 10:47:31 AM11/22/06
to
Dear Louise, John, etc.

I've had the opportunity to examine further records which concern the
Soligny (or Sulney) family of Brittany and England. I have limited
time this morning and am not able to give a full report of my findings.
However, I can give an immediate answer to Louise's question about
whether or not Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother, Iseult de Soligny, was the


same person as Iseult de Soligny, wife of Andrew de Cardinham.

As best I can tell, it appears that the women were separate and
distinct persons. I find that in 1280, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh de
Treverbin sued Aimery de Rochechouart [Vicomte of Rochechouart] and his
wife, Maud [de Ferrers], regarding a messuage and three carucates of
land in Kilmersdon, Somerset [Reference: Lionel Landon, ed.,
Somersetshire Pleas, 4 (Somerset Record Society 44) (1919): 305-306].
The plaintiffs claimed this property as "heirs" of Geoffrey de Soligny,
which Geoffrey evidently held the manor of Kilmersdon, Somerset prior
to his death in 1265. However, Joan and Hugh were not the only
claimants to Geoffrey de Soligny's estates. Another lawsuit in the
same year indicates that Geoffrey de Soligny had a daughter, Mary, wife
of Robert de Boyton, who also claimed rights to Kilmersdon [Reference:
Ibid., 359-362]. Sir Philip d'Aubeney [son of Iseult, daughter of
Gedouin, son of Jean, brother of Geoffrey] likewise claimed Kilmersdon
and he was awarded outright possession of the manor by the king in 1280
[Reference: Ibid., 359-362]. Philip d'Aubeney's exact connection to
Geoffrey de Soligny is not stated in these records.

As I understand the Soligny family tree, Joan de Champernoun and Hugh
de Treverbin respectively represented the interests of Geoffrey de
Soligny's two sisters, Emme and Iseult. Philip d'Aubigny was descended
from Geoffrey de Soligny's elder brother, Jean, seigneur of Dol in
Brittany, and so had the senior claim. The claims of Mary, wife of
Robert de Boyton, were evidently denied due to fraudulent actions on
the part of Robert de Boyton prior to Geoffrey de Soligny's death.

Louise Staley

unread,
Nov 22, 2006, 4:05:20 PM11/22/06
to
Thanks for digging this out Douglas, much appreciated. I did say I
thought making Isolda wife of both Andrew Cardingham and Ralph Daubeney
was too neat and so it has proved to be. However I still think we are
onto something with Isolda Soligny wife of Ralph and Isolda Soligny wife
of Andrew being closely related in some yet to be determined way.

cheers
Louise

Douglas Richardson

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Dec 1, 2006, 2:07:41 AM12/1/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Since making my original post on the identity of Iseult, first wife of
Sir Ralph d'Aubeney, seigneur of Landal in Brittany, I've located
several contemporary records which trace Iseult's ancestry back in
time. These records confirm the statements made by Iseult's son, Elias
d'Aubeney, in his 1295 lawsuit in England, namely that Iseult's father,
[Sir] Gedouin [de Dol], was the son of John [de Dol], which John de Dol
was the [elder] brother of Ralph de Soligny (or Sulney), of England.

As time permits, I'll post various records concerning the Dol and
Soligny families which prove these connections. For starters, I've
posted below two items which concern Sir Elias d'Aubeney's maternal
grandfather, Sir Gedouin de Dol, knight, who died testate c. 1235. Sir
Gedouin de Dol was the son and heir apparent of Jean de Dol, seigneur
of Combourg. In the first document below, Sir Gedouin de Dol confirms
the gifts which Alan Fitz Jordan Seneschal of Dol formerly made to
Tronchet Abbey in Brittany. This document is dated 1229. In the
second document dated 1235, Gedouin's father, Jean de Dol, gives
various particulars regarding the testament of his son, Gedouin, of
which he and others were executors. Specific mention is made of
Gedouin de Dol's wife, Eleanor de Vitré, and her brother, André de
Vitré.

Eleanor de Vitré named here as wife of Sir Gedouin de Dol was the
niece of the better known Eleanor de Vitré, Countess of Salisbury in
England, ancestress of the baronial Longespée family. Iseult de Dol's
mother, Eleanor de Vitré, was likewise the niece of Robert de Vitré,
Precentor of Paris, which individual was styled kinsman by the ill
fated Duke Arthur of Brittany in 1199.

A word of explanation: The records I've found indicate that Sir Elias
d'Aubeney's maternal grandfather and great-grandfather were both known
as "de Dol;" however, the great-grandfather in this line was Hasculf de
Soligny. To confuse matters, Hasculf de Soligny's younger sons, Ralph
and Geoffrey, both went to England and used the Soligny surname.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Dom Hyacinthe Morice, Memoirs pour Servir de Preuves à
l'Histoire ecclesiastique et civile de Bretagne, volume 1 (1742).

pg. 864-865. Date: 1229.

Lettre de Gedouin de Dol pour le Tronchet.

Universis praesentes litteras inspecturis & audituris Jodoinus de Dolo
miles, salutem in Domino. Noveritis quod ego pro salute animae meae
omnes eleemosynas & donationes quas Alanus filius Jordani Senescallus
Dolensis fundator beatae Mariae de Tronchero & antecessores mei & omnes
alii fideles fecerunt dictae Abbatiae & fratribus ibidem Deo
servientibus & servituris ratas habeo & confirmo, volens & concedens
quod easdem habeant, teneant & possideant in perpetuum liberas,
pacificas & quietas nihil mihi juris retinens in eisdem. In quorum
testimonium praesentes litteras dedi eisdem sigillo meo sigillatas.
Datum anno Domini 1229, mense Aprilis. Titre de Tronchet.

+ + + + + + + + +

pp. 884-885. Date: 1235.

Testament de Jedoin de Dol fils de Jean, Seigneur de Combourg.

Universis Joannes de Dolo Dominus Comburnii Sal. Jodoinus filius meus
primogenitus laborans in extremis pro salute anime sue voluit &
disposuit unam capellaniam fieri in Abbatia Vet. v. & rogavit me,
Dominum Robertum Chesnel, & Dominum Willelmum Goscelin milites &
fratrem Herbertum de Veteri villa quos testamenti sui fecit executores,
quod nos de redditibus suis provideremus & assignaremus unde dicta
Capellania posset fieri competenter. Nos vero dispositioni & voluntati
ejus annuentes cum assensu & voluntate Andree Domini Vitreii & Alienor
sororis sue uxoris dicti Jodoini providimus & assignavimus quod dicta
Capella fieret de redditibus quos Monachi dicte Abbatiae solebant dicto
Jodoino reddere annuatim de terris suis sitis in parrochia de Paluel in
nostro feodo, & propter hoc eisdem Monachis donavimus & quittavimus
omnes redditus terrarum illarum. Hanc donationem & quittationem volui,
feci, & concessi tanquam pater dicti Jodoini & executor testamenti
ejus, supradictis aliis executoribus suis volentibus, facientibus, &
concedentibus idipsum. Quod ut ratam in posterum habeatur ego & ipsi
presentibus litteris sigilla nostra apposuimus in testimonium &
munimem. Actum anno gratie MCCXXXV. Titre de la Vieuville.

Il ne reste que le sceau de Guillaume Goscelin qui porte orlé à trois
billettes ou ermines. 2. 1.

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 2, 2006, 10:51:45 AM12/2/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

This is the next in a series of posts which document the newly
discovered Breton ancestry of Sir Elias d'Aubeney (died 1305), Lord
Daubeney in England.

In the previous post, we found that Sir Elias d'Aubeney's mother,
Iseult de Dol, was the daughter of Sir Gedouin de Dol, knight, died c.
1235, and his wife, Eleanor de Vitré, sister of Andre de Vitré. Sir
Geldouin de Dol in turn was found to be the son of Jean de Dol,
seigneur of Combourg.

In the item below dated 1210 and 1214, Jean de Dol, seigneur of
Combourg, is further identified as the son of H[asculf] de Soligny.
Jean de Dol's wife, Eleanor, is named, along with their two children,
Gedouin and Noga.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + +

Source: Dom Hyacinthe Morice, Memoirs pour Servir de Preuves à
l'Histoire ecclesiastique et civile de Bretagne, volume 1 (1742).

pg. 825-826. Date: 1210 and 1214.

Donations faites à la Vieuville par Jean de Dol & Alienor son épouse.

Notum sit omnibus quod ego Johannes de Dolo filius H. de Soligneio
omnia dona & elemosinas que ab antecessoribus meis & ab hominibus meis
& à me ipso Abbatie Veteris v.collata sunt in omni terra mea de
Britannia in Episcopatu videlicet Maclov. & Dol. in veritate & in bona
voluntate concedo. Concedente A. uxore mea. Jelduino fil. meo, Noga
filia mea. Sigillique mei authoritate confirmo, testibus his D. Abbate
ejusdem loci. Luca & Johanne Monachis. Teste me ipso. G. de Chobar.
G. Spina filio Eudonis. Actum est hoc anno ab Incarnat. Domini MCCX.
Titre de la Vieuville.

Omnibus ego Johannes de Dolo Dominus de Combor notum facio quod dedi
Abbatie Veteris ville, concedente uxore mea Alienor & omnibus heredibus
meis qui tunc erant omnes terras quas possident in grangia sua de Bella
insula; concessi etiam eis terras quas habent de Galan, de Paluel & de
Gaufrido Farsi. Facta est hec concessio & confirmatio anno ab
Incarnatione Dom. MCCXIV. mense Aprili. Titre de la Vieuville.

Message has been deleted

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 2, 2006, 5:31:44 PM12/2/06
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Searching through the National Archives catalogue just now, I turned up
an ancient petition submitted by Elias (or Ellis) Daubeney to the king
requesting that he be granted a writ to John de Mettingham and his
associates to proceed with a plea that he has brought against John de
Willington.

The modern archivist has dated the petition 1289-1301. However, since
it obviously deals with the 1295 lawsuit between Elias d'Aubeney and
John de Willington which I discussed in an earlier post, a better date
of c.1295 would be more appropriate for this petition.

Furthermore, the abstract of the petition indicates that two other
parties, John and Jondewyn, are named in the petition. These would
surely be Sir Ellias d'Aubeney's maternal grandfather, Sir Geldoin de
Dol, and his great-grandfather, Sir Jean de Dol. It would be quite odd
if the petition did not reveal Sir Elias d'Aubeney's relationship to
these two parties. If so, it would seem either the petition is
illegible in places, or the archivist failed to understand the import
of the stated relationships.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
SC 8/176/8785

Record Summary

Petitioners: Ellis Daubeney.

Addressees: King.

Places mentioned: John de Metyngham (Mettingham); John de Welington
(Wellington); John; Jondewyn.

Nature of request: Daubeney requests that he be granted a writ to
Mettingham and his companions to proceed in the plea that he brought
against Wellington as it has been pleaded that his ancestors were not
born in England and the case has been delayed.

1) Endorsement: He should have a writ of Chancery to the justices of
the Bench if he wishes, that they should proceed according to the law
and custom of the realm.

2) The petition was expedited on Thursday by the council and not
enrolled.

Covering dates [1289-1301]

Note: The petition is dated to 1289-1301 on the basis of the guard
notes which suggest this date because of the reference to John de
Mettingham.

Peter Stewart

unread,
Dec 2, 2006, 5:56:30 PM12/2/06
to

"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1165097330....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Searching through the National Archives catalogue just now, I turned up
> an ancient petition submitted by Elias (or Ellis) Daubeney to the king
> requesting that he be granted a writ to John de Mettingham and his
> associates to proceed with a plea that he has brought against John de
> Willington.
>
> The modern archivist has dated the petition 1289-1301. However, since
> it obviously deals with the 1295 lawsuit between Elias d'Aubeney and
> John de Willington which I discussed in an earlier post, a better date
> of c.1295 would be more appropriate for this petition.
>
> Furthermore, the abstract of the petition indicates that two other
> parties, John and Jondewyn, are named in the petition. These would
> surely be Sir Ellias d'Aubeney's maternal grandfather, Sir Geldoin de
> Dol, and his great-grandfather, Sir Jean de Dol. It would be quite odd
> if the petition did not reveal Sir Elias d'Aubeney's relationship to
> these two parties. If so, it would seem either the petition is
> illegible in places, or the archivist failed to understand the import
> of the stated relationships.

Perhaps you are unaware that the style "Sir" was not used by Breton
noblemen. Or are you now proposing to apply modern British usage to
"ancient" foreign people?

If so, how does this very peculiar (and long-obsolete) practice of using
alien titles fit in with your stated (though not always observed) principle
of calling people by names they used for themselves?

Peter Stewart


Steve

unread,
Dec 3, 2006, 5:52:48 AM12/3/06
to
Douglas, that document is available to download for free, so why don't
you download it and read it yourself.

Steve

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Dec 3, 2006, 3:43:31 PM12/3/06
to
Dear Steve ~

I searched the Ancient Petitions database for the name Jondewyn both as
a first name and as a last name. Both times it said no entries were
found. I then tried searching the database for the name Ellis Daubeney
and the correct entry came up.

I downloaded the petition as you suggested. I found it difficult to
read in digital form. Perhaps you can do it justice.

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