Re: origin bertha, queen of aragon, wife of predo i

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Rashid Amora wrote:
> Who has access to this work and can give me details about the origin
> of bertha?
> She married Pedro I, king of Aragon in 1097.
> Is it possible that this Berha married Alfonso VI in ca 1108?
>
> Full Title:
>
> Contribution à l'Histoire de l'Attitude des Royaumes Pirenéens dans le
> Querelle des Investitures: de l'Origine de Berthe, Reine d'Aragon et de
> Navarre
> Author(s): Szabolcs de Vajay (de Vajay, Szabolcs)
> Pages: 375-402

All that is known of Bertha is her name and minimal chronology. In this
work, Szabolcs de Vajay discusses the few occurances we have of Bertha,
and more generally the marital strategy and politics of Pedro I and his
immediate kin, and based on this analysis speculates that in looking for
Bertha's origins, one should try to look for (along with reasonable
chronology, etc):

a relationship to Empress Bertha

a connection to a family with close ties to the Curie

a connection to the Dukes of Aquitaine

He then runs through Bertha's siblings (children of Eudes of Maurienne
and Adelaide of Turin), and finds that the marriage between her brother
Peter to Agnes, daughter of William VII of Aquitaine would fit his
criteria. That, then, is his argument. However, this is less a
scholarly result as it is a simple wild guess.

As to the possibility of marrying Alfonso, de Vajay reports Pedro's
death in 1104, and Bertha's some time between 1106 and 1110 (she was
dead in 1111). There is nothing in this chronology that would prevent
such a marriage, but importantly it is reported that Bertha was buried
with Pedro in the monastery of San Juan de la Pena. If this is
accurate, then it would be strong evidence that she died as Pedro's
widow and not Alfonso's.

taf

[Rashid Amora]

Thank you very much Tod:)
Both Alfonso VI and Pedro I had a wife from 'Italy': Pedro had Bertha
(married about 1097) and Alfonso VI had Beatrice (married about 1108). A
daughter of Guillaume V of Aquitaine, by his wife Agnes of Burgundy, was
named Beatrice. Agnes of Aguitaine, the widow of Ramiro I of Aragon,
remarried to Pietro of Savoy. Is this possible that both Berta (a sister of
Pietro was named so) and Beatrice (named after a cousin of Agnes) were
daughters of this couple?

"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> schreef in bericht
news:dk0ejl$7es$1...@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu...

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Rashid Amora wrote:
> Both Alfonso VI and Pedro I had a wife from 'Italy': Pedro had Bertha
> (married about 1097) and Alfonso VI had Beatrice (married about 1108). A
> daughter of Guillaume V of Aquitaine, by his wife Agnes of Burgundy, was
> named Beatrice. Agnes of Aguitaine, the widow of Ramiro I of Aragon,
> remarried to Pietro of Savoy. Is this possible that both Berta (a sister of
> Pietro was named so) and Beatrice (named after a cousin of Agnes) were
> daughters of this couple?

I guess possible, yes, but when so little is known, much is possible.
In fact, we don't know that Bertha was Italian, nor Beatrice, bioth
being just guesses. We really only know them by name, with only
speculation as to their actual origins. An alternative theory with
regard to Beatrice is that she was daughter of William IX of Aquitaine.
There is just so little information on them.

taf