Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Genealogics Addition: Additional Edward I Descents for Princess Diana thru Calibut Walpole (c.1540-1612)
207 views
Skip to first unread message
Brad Verity
Oct 30, 2012, 11:12:59 PM10/30/12
to
A few weeks back, I made a series of posts about additional Edward I &
Edward III descents for Princess Diana thru her ancestors James, 2nd
Earl Waldegrave & his wife Maria Walpole (later Duchess of
Gloucester). One of the ancestors, in turn, of Maria Walpole, is
Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall, who was named for his mother's
family, the Calibuts of Castle Acre, West Lexham, and Coxford Abbey,
all in the county of Norfolk.
Per Rev. Augustus Jessopp's work on the Walpole family, 'One
Generation of a Norfolk House' (1879), p. 31 n. 13, William Calibut of
Coxford Abbey was the son of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
in 1553, and the brother of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
in 1570:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=2VI0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=John+Calibut+died+Upton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T4uQUJuSGIeliQLU04DAAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Calibut%20died%20Upton&f=false
Jessopp says the wife of the elder John Calibut was Bridget Boleyn,
but this is incorrect. Bridget Hogan (not Boleyn) was the wife of the
younger John Calibut, and, per the Wingfield of Dunham pedigree in the
1634 Visitation of Huntingdonshire, the wife of the elder John Calibut
(the one who died in 1553) and the mother of the younger John Calibut
(the one who died in 1570) was Alice Wingfield:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationhuntin00camduoft#page/128/mode/2up
This gives 2 additional Edward I descents to Calibut Walpole of
Houghton Hall, thru his mother Katherine Calibut, who is in Leo's
database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00614662&tree=LEO
Edward I had 2 daus, A1 & B1:
A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
A3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
Arundel (1346-1397), and had
A4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
A5) Elizabeth Goushill (c.1401-aft.1454) m. 1)(?) Sir Robert Wingfield
of Letheringham (d. 1454), and had
A6) Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (c.1428-1481) m. Elizabeth
FitzLewis (see B6 below), and had
A7) John Wingfield of Dunham Magna (c.1461-1509) m. Margaret Dorward,
and had
A8) Alice Wingfield m. John Calibut of West Lexham (d. 1553), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00566933&tree=LEO
A9) William Calibut of Coxford Priory (d. 1577) m. Dorothy Edgar, and
had
A10) Katherine Calibut (c.1541-1612) m. John Walpole of Houghton Hall
(c.1525-1585, descended from Edward I), and had
A11) Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall (1561-1646), ancestor of
Princess Diana
B1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 2) Ralph, 1st Lord Monthermer (c.
1262-1325), and had
B2) Thomas, 2nd Lord Monthermer (1301-1340) m. Margaret de Braose (c.
1303-1349), and had
B3) Margaret Monthermer (1329-1395) m. John Montagu, 1st Lord Montagu
(c.1329-1390), and had
B4) John Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (c.1350-1400) m. Maud
Fraunceys (c.1357-1424), and had
B5) Anne Montagu (c.1398-1457) m. 2) Sir Lewis John of West Horndon (c.
1380-1442), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139274&tree=LEO
B6) Elizabeth FitzLewis (1436-1500) m. Sir John Wingfield of
Letheringham (see A6 above)
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026804&tree=LEO
Cheers, -------Brad
Edward III descents for Princess Diana thru her ancestors James, 2nd
Earl Waldegrave & his wife Maria Walpole (later Duchess of
Gloucester). One of the ancestors, in turn, of Maria Walpole, is
Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall, who was named for his mother's
family, the Calibuts of Castle Acre, West Lexham, and Coxford Abbey,
all in the county of Norfolk.
Per Rev. Augustus Jessopp's work on the Walpole family, 'One
Generation of a Norfolk House' (1879), p. 31 n. 13, William Calibut of
Coxford Abbey was the son of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
in 1553, and the brother of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
in 1570:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=2VI0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=John+Calibut+died+Upton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T4uQUJuSGIeliQLU04DAAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=John%20Calibut%20died%20Upton&f=false
Jessopp says the wife of the elder John Calibut was Bridget Boleyn,
but this is incorrect. Bridget Hogan (not Boleyn) was the wife of the
younger John Calibut, and, per the Wingfield of Dunham pedigree in the
1634 Visitation of Huntingdonshire, the wife of the elder John Calibut
(the one who died in 1553) and the mother of the younger John Calibut
(the one who died in 1570) was Alice Wingfield:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationhuntin00camduoft#page/128/mode/2up
This gives 2 additional Edward I descents to Calibut Walpole of
Houghton Hall, thru his mother Katherine Calibut, who is in Leo's
database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00614662&tree=LEO
Edward I had 2 daus, A1 & B1:
A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
A3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
Arundel (1346-1397), and had
A4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
A5) Elizabeth Goushill (c.1401-aft.1454) m. 1)(?) Sir Robert Wingfield
of Letheringham (d. 1454), and had
A6) Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (c.1428-1481) m. Elizabeth
FitzLewis (see B6 below), and had
A7) John Wingfield of Dunham Magna (c.1461-1509) m. Margaret Dorward,
and had
A8) Alice Wingfield m. John Calibut of West Lexham (d. 1553), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00566933&tree=LEO
A9) William Calibut of Coxford Priory (d. 1577) m. Dorothy Edgar, and
had
A10) Katherine Calibut (c.1541-1612) m. John Walpole of Houghton Hall
(c.1525-1585, descended from Edward I), and had
A11) Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall (1561-1646), ancestor of
Princess Diana
B1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 2) Ralph, 1st Lord Monthermer (c.
1262-1325), and had
B2) Thomas, 2nd Lord Monthermer (1301-1340) m. Margaret de Braose (c.
1303-1349), and had
B3) Margaret Monthermer (1329-1395) m. John Montagu, 1st Lord Montagu
(c.1329-1390), and had
B4) John Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (c.1350-1400) m. Maud
Fraunceys (c.1357-1424), and had
B5) Anne Montagu (c.1398-1457) m. 2) Sir Lewis John of West Horndon (c.
1380-1442), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139274&tree=LEO
B6) Elizabeth FitzLewis (1436-1500) m. Sir John Wingfield of
Letheringham (see A6 above)
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026804&tree=LEO
Cheers, -------Brad
John Higgins
Oct 31, 2012, 1:22:14 AM10/31/12
to
On Oct 30, 8:12 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A few weeks back, I made a series of posts about additional Edward I &
> Edward III descents for Princess Diana thru her ancestors James, 2nd
> Earl Waldegrave & his wife Maria Walpole (later Duchess of
> Gloucester). One of the ancestors, in turn, of Maria Walpole, is
> Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall, who was named for his mother's
> family, the Calibuts of Castle Acre, West Lexham, and Coxford Abbey,
> all in the county of Norfolk.
>
> Per Rev. Augustus Jessopp's work on the Walpole family, 'One
> Generation of a Norfolk House' (1879), p. 31 n. 13, William Calibut of
> Coxford Abbey was the son of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
> in 1553, and the brother of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
> in 1570:http://books.google.ca/books?id=2VI0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=John+Calibut+...
> A few weeks back, I made a series of posts about additional Edward I &
> Edward III descents for Princess Diana thru her ancestors James, 2nd
> Earl Waldegrave & his wife Maria Walpole (later Duchess of
> Gloucester). One of the ancestors, in turn, of Maria Walpole, is
> Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall, who was named for his mother's
> family, the Calibuts of Castle Acre, West Lexham, and Coxford Abbey,
> all in the county of Norfolk.
>
> Per Rev. Augustus Jessopp's work on the Walpole family, 'One
> Generation of a Norfolk House' (1879), p. 31 n. 13, William Calibut of
> Coxford Abbey was the son of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
> in 1553, and the brother of the John Calibut of Castle Acre who died
>
> Jessopp says the wife of the elder John Calibut was Bridget Boleyn,
> but this is incorrect. Bridget Hogan (not Boleyn) was the wife of the
> younger John Calibut, and, per the Wingfield of Dunham pedigree in the
> 1634 Visitation of Huntingdonshire, the wife of the elder John Calibut
> (the one who died in 1553) and the mother of the younger John Calibut
> (the one who died in 1570) was Alice Wingfield:http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationhuntin00camduoft#page/128/mod...
> Jessopp says the wife of the elder John Calibut was Bridget Boleyn,
> but this is incorrect. Bridget Hogan (not Boleyn) was the wife of the
> younger John Calibut, and, per the Wingfield of Dunham pedigree in the
> 1634 Visitation of Huntingdonshire, the wife of the elder John Calibut
> (the one who died in 1553) and the mother of the younger John Calibut
>
> This gives 2 additional Edward I descents to Calibut Walpole of
> Houghton Hall, thru his mother Katherine Calibut, who is in Leo's
> database, here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00614662&tree=LEO
>
> Edward I had 2 daus, A1 & B1:
> A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
> of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
> A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
> Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
> A3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
> Arundel (1346-1397), and had
> A4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
> Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
> A5) Elizabeth Goushill (c.1401-aft.1454) m. 1)(?) Sir Robert Wingfield
> of Letheringham (d. 1454), and had
> A6) Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (c.1428-1481) m. Elizabeth
> FitzLewis (see B6 below), and had
> A7) John Wingfield of Dunham Magna (c.1461-1509) m. Margaret Dorward,
> and had
> A8) Alice Wingfield m. John Calibut of West Lexham (d. 1553), and hadhttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00566933&tree=LEO
> This gives 2 additional Edward I descents to Calibut Walpole of
> Houghton Hall, thru his mother Katherine Calibut, who is in Leo's
> database, here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00614662&tree=LEO
>
> Edward I had 2 daus, A1 & B1:
> A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
> of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
> A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
> Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
> A3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
> Arundel (1346-1397), and had
> A4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
> Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
> A5) Elizabeth Goushill (c.1401-aft.1454) m. 1)(?) Sir Robert Wingfield
> of Letheringham (d. 1454), and had
> A6) Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (c.1428-1481) m. Elizabeth
> FitzLewis (see B6 below), and had
> A7) John Wingfield of Dunham Magna (c.1461-1509) m. Margaret Dorward,
> and had
> A9) William Calibut of Coxford Priory (d. 1577) m. Dorothy Edgar, and
> had
> A10) Katherine Calibut (c.1541-1612) m. John Walpole of Houghton Hall
> (c.1525-1585, descended from Edward I), and had
> A11) Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall (1561-1646), ancestor of
> Princess Diana
>
> B1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 2) Ralph, 1st Lord Monthermer (c.
> 1262-1325), and had
> B2) Thomas, 2nd Lord Monthermer (1301-1340) m. Margaret de Braose (c.
> 1303-1349), and had
> B3) Margaret Monthermer (1329-1395) m. John Montagu, 1st Lord Montagu
> (c.1329-1390), and had
> B4) John Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (c.1350-1400) m. Maud
> Fraunceys (c.1357-1424), and had
> B5) Anne Montagu (c.1398-1457) m. 2) Sir Lewis John of West Horndon (c.
> 1380-1442), and hadhttp://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139274&tree=LEO
> had
> A10) Katherine Calibut (c.1541-1612) m. John Walpole of Houghton Hall
> (c.1525-1585, descended from Edward I), and had
> A11) Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall (1561-1646), ancestor of
> Princess Diana
>
> B1) Joan of Acre (1272-1307) m. 2) Ralph, 1st Lord Monthermer (c.
> 1262-1325), and had
> B2) Thomas, 2nd Lord Monthermer (1301-1340) m. Margaret de Braose (c.
> 1303-1349), and had
> B3) Margaret Monthermer (1329-1395) m. John Montagu, 1st Lord Montagu
> (c.1329-1390), and had
> B4) John Montagu, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (c.1350-1400) m. Maud
> Fraunceys (c.1357-1424), and had
> B5) Anne Montagu (c.1398-1457) m. 2) Sir Lewis John of West Horndon (c.
> B6) Elizabeth FitzLewis (1436-1500) m. Sir John Wingfield of
> Letheringham (see A6 above)http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026804&tree=LEO
>
> Cheers, -------Brad
Ummm....I think we have a case of differing secondary sources here -
> Letheringham (see A6 above)http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026804&tree=LEO
>
> Cheers, -------Brad
and thus a question of which one is more accurate.
I agree with you that Jessopp says that William Calibut (or Calybutt)
is a son of the elder John Calibut - but, as you mention, Jessopp has
the wife of the elder John wrong and doesn't name the wife of the
elder John.
OTOH there is a pedigree of the Calybutt [sic] family in G. A.
Carthew's "The hundred of Launditch and deanery of Brisley in the
county of Norfolk" which presents a different picture. It's available
for download here (see 2:681-2):
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=195828
Here the wives of the two Johns are presented as you indicate, but
William is said to be brother, not son, of the elder John. Admittedly
the date of William's will suggests that he is brother to the younger
John, but it's not impossible that chronologically he could be brother
of the elder John as Carthew indicates.
In addition I notice that the Harleian Society edition of the
visitations of Norfolk (HSP vol. 32) also places William as a brother,
not son, of the elder John - and it has the wives of both of the Johns
as you indicate them to be.
So...two sources say William was brother of the elder John, while one
says he was his son. A nice puzzle....
Brad Verity
Oct 31, 2012, 3:39:51 AM10/31/12
to
On Oct 30, 10:22 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In addition I notice that the Harleian Society edition of the
> visitations of Norfolk (HSP vol. 32) also places William as a brother,
> not son, of the elder John - and it has the wives of both of the Johns
> as you indicate them to be.
The Calybut pedigree in the Norfolk Visitation is correct: William
> In addition I notice that the Harleian Society edition of the
> visitations of Norfolk (HSP vol. 32) also places William as a brother,
> not son, of the elder John - and it has the wives of both of the Johns
> as you indicate them to be.
Calibut of Coxford Abbey (d. 1577) was *not* the son of John Calibut
(d. 1555) & Alice Wingfield, but rather the son of Francis Calibut (d.
1517) & younger brother of the John who married Alice.
Chronology proves this. Per the IPM on John Calibut taken in April
1556, his son & heir John was aged 30 and more. For William Calibut
of Coxford Abbey to have been a younger son, he would have to have
been born after 1526. But Sir Gregory Edgar of Brantham Hall, the
father of Dorothy Edgar, William Calibut's wife, died in 1506, so
Dorothy had to have been born by that year. It's not very likely that
a woman born by 1506 would marry a man at least 20 years younger than
her, and go on to have at least three children with him. So William
chronologically belongs a generation earlier, as the Visitation
pedigree has it. He must have been at an advanced age, then, at his
1577 death.
> Edward I had 2 daus, A1 & B1:
> A1) Elizabeth of England (1282-1316) m. 2) Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl
> of Hereford (1276-1322), and had
> A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m.
> Elizabeth Badlesmere (c.1310-1356), and had
> A3) Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of
> Arundel (1346-1397), and had
> A4) Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of
> Hoveringham (c.1360-1403), and had
> A5) Elizabeth Goushill (c.1401-aft.1454) m. 1)(?) Sir Robert Wingfield
> of Letheringham (d. 1454), and had
> A6) Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham (c.1428-1481) m. Elizabeth
> FitzLewis (see B6 below), and had
> A7) John Wingfield of Dunham Magna (c.1461-1509) m. Margaret Dorward,
> and had
> A8) Alice Wingfield m. John Calibut of West Lexham (d. 1553), and had
> A9) William Calibut of Coxford Priory (d. 1577) m. Dorothy Edgar, and
> had
> A10) Katherine Calibut (c.1541-1612) m. John Walpole of Houghton Hall
> (c.1525-1585, descended from Edward I), and had
> A11) Calibut Walpole of Houghton Hall (1561-1646), ancestor of
> Princess Diana
a descendant of Edward I, for her father William Calibut (Generation
A9 above) was the brother-in-law, not the son of Alice Wingfield
(Generation A8 above).
Thanks for pointing out the two Calibut pedigrees, John. The 'Hundred
of Launditch' volume had much useful information.
Cheers, -----Brad
John Higgins
Oct 31, 2012, 1:14:11 PM10/31/12
to
On Oct 31, 12:39 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 10:22 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In addition I notice that the Harleian Society edition of the
> > visitations of Norfolk (HSP vol. 32) also places William as a brother,
> > not son, of the elder John - and it has the wives of both of the Johns
> > as you indicate them to be.
>
> The Calybut pedigree in the Norfolk Visitation is correct: William
> Calibut of Coxford Abbey (d. 1577) was *not* the son of John Calibut
> (d. 1555) & Alice Wingfield, but rather the son of Francis Calibut (d.
> 1517) & younger brother of the John who married Alice.
>
> Chronology proves this. Per the IPM on John Calibut taken in April
> 1556, his son & heir John was aged 30 and more. For William Calibut
> of Coxford Abbey to have been a younger son, he would have to have
> been born after 1526. But Sir Gregory Edgar of Brantham Hall, the
> father of Dorothy Edgar, William Calibut's wife, died in 1506, so
> Dorothy had to have been born by that year. It's not very likely that
> a woman born by 1506 would marry a man at least 20 years younger than
> her, and go on to have at least three children with him. So William
> chronologically belongs a generation earlier, as the Visitation
> pedigree has it. He must have been at an advanced age, then, at his
> 1577 death.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad
> On Oct 30, 10:22 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > In addition I notice that the Harleian Society edition of the
> > visitations of Norfolk (HSP vol. 32) also places William as a brother,
> > not son, of the elder John - and it has the wives of both of the Johns
> > as you indicate them to be.
>
> The Calybut pedigree in the Norfolk Visitation is correct: William
> Calibut of Coxford Abbey (d. 1577) was *not* the son of John Calibut
> (d. 1555) & Alice Wingfield, but rather the son of Francis Calibut (d.
> 1517) & younger brother of the John who married Alice.
>
> Chronology proves this. Per the IPM on John Calibut taken in April
> 1556, his son & heir John was aged 30 and more. For William Calibut
> of Coxford Abbey to have been a younger son, he would have to have
> been born after 1526. But Sir Gregory Edgar of Brantham Hall, the
> father of Dorothy Edgar, William Calibut's wife, died in 1506, so
> Dorothy had to have been born by that year. It's not very likely that
> a woman born by 1506 would marry a man at least 20 years younger than
> her, and go on to have at least three children with him. So William
> chronologically belongs a generation earlier, as the Visitation
> pedigree has it. He must have been at an advanced age, then, at his
> 1577 death.
>
Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
(or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
Speaker of the Commons).
Brad Verity
Oct 31, 2012, 2:09:49 PM10/31/12
to
On Oct 31, 10:14 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> Speaker of the Commons).
John,
> Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> Speaker of the Commons).
Yes, Anne Wiseman was Dorothy Edgar's mother. From the will of Sir
Humphrey Wingfield, dated 13 March 1543:
"I, the said Sir Humphrey, purchased and bought of mine daughter,
Dorothy Adgore, one of the daughters and heir of Gregory Adgore,
serjeant at the law, deceased, now wife of William Calibut, gentleman,
before she was married unto the said William Calibut...":
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2rXgrgVjAuUJ:www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-31_ff_178-81.pdf+&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgStkAzokJ_otHUFAWvWFKxYD2YWsjBRpDdB9E_OMa_A0CnbxMj5GzuWPoELak4IOr9kwJkdAyun3rau2p132D0JjGH9IiJisFIrPG7QIba_AiURAC62KtDS26dMPeLra9kO3Tq&sig=AHIEtbTqoGP773-JaGi5DfndmGBNTEYEdQ
Cheers, -------Brad
John Higgins
Oct 31, 2012, 7:18:32 PM10/31/12
to
On Oct 31, 11:09 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 10:14 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> > (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> > sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> > was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> > of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> > Speaker of the Commons).
>
> John,
>
> Yes, Anne Wiseman was Dorothy Edgar's mother. From the will of Sir
> Humphrey Wingfield, dated 13 March 1543:
>
> "I, the said Sir Humphrey, purchased and bought of mine daughter,
> Dorothy Adgore, one of the daughters and heir of Gregory Adgore,
> serjeant at the law, deceased, now wife of William Calibut, gentleman,
> before she was married unto the said William Calibut...":https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2rXgrgVjAuUJ:www.oxford-sh...
> On Oct 31, 10:14 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> > (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> > sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> > was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> > of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> > Speaker of the Commons).
>
> John,
>
> Yes, Anne Wiseman was Dorothy Edgar's mother. From the will of Sir
> Humphrey Wingfield, dated 13 March 1543:
>
> "I, the said Sir Humphrey, purchased and bought of mine daughter,
> Dorothy Adgore, one of the daughters and heir of Gregory Adgore,
> serjeant at the law, deceased, now wife of William Calibut, gentleman,
>
> Cheers, -------Brad
It's curious that the pedigree of Wingfield of Brantham in the 1613
Huntingdonshire visitation (cited earlier in this thread - see page
130) says that Dorothy the wife of William Calibut was the daughter,
not the step-daughter, of Sir Humphrey Wingfield. And Sir Humphrey's
will, quoted above, first says she was his daughter and then says she
was daughter of Gregory "Adgore". Interesting....
The ODNB bio of Sir Humphrey says that Anne Wiseman had two daughters
by her 1st marriage and then "at least" a son (Sir Robert) by her 2nd
marriage. I wonder if the other daughter Anne in the visitation
pedigree (who married Sir Alexander Newton) is also a stepdaughter.
Doug Smith
Oct 31, 2012, 7:54:52 PM10/31/12
to
Says Sir Humphrey Wingfield had at two sons and at least one daughter.
Doug
John Higgins
Oct 31, 2012, 8:40:14 PM10/31/12
to
On Oct 31, 11:09 am, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 10:14 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> > (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> > sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> > was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> > of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> > Speaker of the Commons).
>
> John,
>
> Yes, Anne Wiseman was Dorothy Edgar's mother. From the will of Sir
> Humphrey Wingfield, dated 13 March 1543:
>
> "I, the said Sir Humphrey, purchased and bought of mine daughter,
> Dorothy Adgore, one of the daughters and heir of Gregory Adgore,
> serjeant at the law, deceased, now wife of William Calibut, gentleman,
> before she was married unto the said William Calibut...":https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2rXgrgVjAuUJ:www.oxford-sh...
> On Oct 31, 10:14 am, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for identifying Dorothy Edgar as the wife of William Calibut
> > (or Calybutt). I did not have any information on his wife. What
> > sources support this marriage, and her parentage? I gather that she
> > was the daughter of Sir Gregory Edgar by his wife Anne Wiseman (dau.
> > of Simon Wiseman of Great Canfield; she m. (2) Sir Humphrey Wingfield,
> > Speaker of the Commons).
>
> John,
>
> Yes, Anne Wiseman was Dorothy Edgar's mother. From the will of Sir
> Humphrey Wingfield, dated 13 March 1543:
>
> "I, the said Sir Humphrey, purchased and bought of mine daughter,
> Dorothy Adgore, one of the daughters and heir of Gregory Adgore,
> serjeant at the law, deceased, now wife of William Calibut, gentleman,
>
> Cheers, -------Brad
Who was the father of Anne Wiseman? The biographies of Sir Humphrey
Wingfield in both HOP and ODNB identify him as Sir John Wiseman of
Canfield, but Joan Corder's well-documented 1985 edition of the 1561
visitation of Suffolk (HSP visitation series, new series, vol. 2)
identifies him as Simon Wiseman of Canfield - and cites an MI of Sir
Gregory Edgar (her 1st husband) to support this. I think this brass
is cited in other sources as well. Any thoughts?
Brad Verity
Nov 1, 2012, 2:57:29 AM11/1/12
to
On Oct 31, 5:40 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Who was the father of Anne Wiseman? The biographies of Sir Humphrey
> Wingfield in both HOP and ODNB identify him as Sir John Wiseman of
> Canfield, but Joan Corder's well-documented 1985 edition of the 1561
> visitation of Suffolk (HSP visitation series, new series, vol. 2)
> identifies him as Simon Wiseman of Canfield - and cites an MI of Sir
> Gregory Edgar (her 1st husband) to support this. I think this brass
> is cited in other sources as well. Any thoughts?
I have her parents as Simon Wiseman of Great Thornham (born about
> Who was the father of Anne Wiseman? The biographies of Sir Humphrey
> Wingfield in both HOP and ODNB identify him as Sir John Wiseman of
> Canfield, but Joan Corder's well-documented 1985 edition of the 1561
> visitation of Suffolk (HSP visitation series, new series, vol. 2)
> identifies him as Simon Wiseman of Canfield - and cites an MI of Sir
> Gregory Edgar (her 1st husband) to support this. I think this brass
> is cited in other sources as well. Any thoughts?
1435; died 21 October 1497) & Margaret Bokenham. But as neither are
descendants of Edward I, that's all I have on them - other than the
fact that Simon was M.P. Suffolk 1491-1492, which means I probably
used Wedgwood's HOP as my main source. HOP's bio of Sir Humphrey lists
Metcalfe's Visitation of Suffolk, pages 80 & 176, as well as his bio
in the old DNB, as sources for his family information. Neither of the
pedigrees HOP cites from Metcalfe say that Anne was the daughter of
Sir John Wiseman (see below), so maybe it's Humphrey's bio in the old
DNB that started that affiliation.
> It's curious that the pedigree of Wingfield of Brantham in the 1613
> Huntingdonshire visitation (cited earlier in this thread - see page
> 130) says that Dorothy the wife of William Calibut was the daughter,
> not the step-daughter, of Sir Humphrey Wingfield. And Sir Humphrey's
> will, quoted above, first says she was his daughter and then says she
> was daughter of Gregory "Adgore". Interesting....
his blood. She likely was very young when Edgar died, and Wingfield
would've been the only father she knew. Because of this, by 1613,
Wingfield descendants from more distant branches may have forgotten
that she was a step-daughter in the first place?
> The ODNB bio of Sir Humphrey says that Anne Wiseman had two daughters
> by her 1st marriage and then "at least" a son (Sir Robert) by her 2nd
> marriage. I wonder if the other daughter Anne in the visitation
> pedigree (who married Sir Alexander Newton) is also a stepdaughter.
Wingfield, per the Wingfield of Brantham & Ipswich pedigree from the
1612 Visitation of Suffolk. As this pedigree does not make Dorothy
Edgar the daughter of Humphrey (she's not mentioned at all), I assume
it's more accurate than the Huntingdonshire one the following year.
It does not give a first name for Anne Wiseman's father.
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft#page/176/mode/2up
The Newton of Braisworth pedigree from the 1561 Visitation of Suffolk,
taken during Anne's lifetime, states Humphrey Wingfield was her
father, and has the Newton arms impaling those of Wingfield, so that
seems fairly definitive:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft#page/52/mode/2up
Cheers, ------Brad
Colin B. Withers
Nov 2, 2012, 12:27:01 PM11/2/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Hi,
I am writing a short history of Ellerton Priory in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I was hoping that the scholarly members of this forum could assist me in narrowing down the date range of its foundation charter.
The foundation charter is printed in the Monasticon Anglicanum, Vol 6, pt 2, page 976 (Num 1), http://books.google.de/books?id=a10RAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA977&dq=Monasticon+Ellerton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BVqSUK69BMnPtAaAiYCIDA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Monasticon%20Ellerton&f=false
The Charter is reprinted in English in EYC II, Farrer, 1915, where a date range of 1199-1211 is assigned.
http://www.archive.org/stream/earlyyorkshirech02farruoft#page/424/mode/2up/search/ellerton
I think the date range can be narrowed further, to between 1206-1208. Could you cast your eye over my reasoning in my text below, and provide any comment/correction.
The date of the Charter is certainly after 1199, as Richard I died in this year, and his brother, King John was enthroned 27 May 1199. It can be no later than 1212 as Geoffrey, Archbishop of York (also a witness to the Charter) died 12 December 1212. It is unclear how Farrer narrowed the date down to 1211 in Early Yorkshire Charters II, but in fact the date of the charter is almost certainly before 1208, as in 1207 Geoffrey was forced into exile in France, following a dispute with his half-brother, King John. Another witness to the charter, Robert de Turnham, was sent abroad by John in 1201 to suppress a revolt in Poitou, and was there for the next four years, being taken prisoner towards the end of 1204 or beginning of 1205, and regaining his liberty towards the end of 1205. He next appears in England in January 1206 with John (Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 57). It seems likely, therefore, that the date of the charter can be narrowed, with a fair degree of probability, to 1206-1208.
Many thanks
Wibs
I am writing a short history of Ellerton Priory in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I was hoping that the scholarly members of this forum could assist me in narrowing down the date range of its foundation charter.
The foundation charter is printed in the Monasticon Anglicanum, Vol 6, pt 2, page 976 (Num 1), http://books.google.de/books?id=a10RAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA977&dq=Monasticon+Ellerton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BVqSUK69BMnPtAaAiYCIDA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Monasticon%20Ellerton&f=false
The Charter is reprinted in English in EYC II, Farrer, 1915, where a date range of 1199-1211 is assigned.
http://www.archive.org/stream/earlyyorkshirech02farruoft#page/424/mode/2up/search/ellerton
I think the date range can be narrowed further, to between 1206-1208. Could you cast your eye over my reasoning in my text below, and provide any comment/correction.
The date of the Charter is certainly after 1199, as Richard I died in this year, and his brother, King John was enthroned 27 May 1199. It can be no later than 1212 as Geoffrey, Archbishop of York (also a witness to the Charter) died 12 December 1212. It is unclear how Farrer narrowed the date down to 1211 in Early Yorkshire Charters II, but in fact the date of the charter is almost certainly before 1208, as in 1207 Geoffrey was forced into exile in France, following a dispute with his half-brother, King John. Another witness to the charter, Robert de Turnham, was sent abroad by John in 1201 to suppress a revolt in Poitou, and was there for the next four years, being taken prisoner towards the end of 1204 or beginning of 1205, and regaining his liberty towards the end of 1205. He next appears in England in January 1206 with John (Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 57). It seems likely, therefore, that the date of the charter can be narrowed, with a fair degree of probability, to 1206-1208.
Many thanks
Wibs
Wjhonson
Nov 2, 2012, 12:32:16 PM11/2/12
to Colin....@eumetsat.int, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
This DNB entry is online
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Turnham,_Robert_de_%28DNB00%29
can be narrowed, with a fair degre!
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Turnham,_Robert_de_%28DNB00%29
e of probability, to 1206-1208.
Many thanks
Wibs
-------------------------------
Many thanks
Wibs
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Wjhonson
Nov 2, 2012, 12:36:06 PM11/2/12
to wjho...@aol.com, Colin....@eumetsat.int, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
It appears you could have an early date as well 1199-1201
And the year of the return of Turnham is not specified exactly so I would suggest 1205-1208
And the year of the return of Turnham is not specified exactly so I would suggest 1205-1208
Matt Tompkins
Nov 2, 2012, 6:09:39 PM11/2/12
to
On Nov 2, 4:27 pm, "Colin B. Withers" <Colin.With...@eumetsat.int>
wrote:
>
> The Charter is reprinted in English in EYC II, Farrer, 1915, where a date range of 1199-1211 is assigned.http://www.archive.org/stream/earlyyorkshirech02farruoft#page/424/mod...
March 2001 and summer 2002. But it is probably not safe to rely too
heavily on when just one of the witnesses could have been present - it
has been long known that witnesses were not always present when
charters were made. See, for example, this chapter, by Dauvit Broun
entitled ''The presence of witnesses and the writing of charters', in
a book brought out by him and others just last year, The Reality
behind Charter Diplomatic in Anglo-Norman Britain:
http://paradox.poms.ac.uk/redist/pdf/chapter4.pdf
In it Broun argues valiantly against the orthodoxy that witnesses did
not have to be present, but he is up against a heavy weight of
evidence and scholarship, summarised in his opening pages.
Matt Tompkins
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am writing a short history of Ellerton Priory in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I was hoping that the scholarly members of this forum could assist me in narrowing down the date range of its foundation charter.
>
> The foundation charter is printed in the Monasticon Anglicanum, Vol 6, pt 2, page 976 (Num 1),http://books.google.de/books?id=a10RAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA977&dq=Monasticon+E...
>
> I am writing a short history of Ellerton Priory in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I was hoping that the scholarly members of this forum could assist me in narrowing down the date range of its foundation charter.
>
>
> The Charter is reprinted in English in EYC II, Farrer, 1915, where a date range of 1199-1211 is assigned.http://www.archive.org/stream/earlyyorkshirech02farruoft#page/424/mod...
>
> I think the date range can be narrowed further, to between 1206-1208. Could you cast your eye over my reasoning in my text below, and provide any comment/correction.
>
> The date of the Charter is certainly after 1199, as Richard I died in this year, and his brother, King John was enthroned 27 May 1199. It can be no later than 1212 as Geoffrey, Archbishop of York (also a witness to the Charter) died 12 December 1212. It is unclear how Farrer narrowed the date down to 1211 in Early Yorkshire Charters II, but in fact the date of the charter is almost certainly before 1208, as in 1207 Geoffrey was forced into exile in France, following a dispute with his half-brother, King John. Another witness to the charter, Robert de Turnham, was sent abroad by John in 1201 to suppress a revolt in Poitou, and was there for the next four years, being taken prisoner towards the end of 1204 or beginning of 1205, and regaining his liberty towards the end of 1205. He next appears in England in January 1206 with John (Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 57). It seems likely, therefore, that the date of the charter can be narrowed, with a fair degree of probability, to 1206-1208.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Wibs
As Will Johnson has pointed out, Turnham was also in England between
> I think the date range can be narrowed further, to between 1206-1208. Could you cast your eye over my reasoning in my text below, and provide any comment/correction.
>
> The date of the Charter is certainly after 1199, as Richard I died in this year, and his brother, King John was enthroned 27 May 1199. It can be no later than 1212 as Geoffrey, Archbishop of York (also a witness to the Charter) died 12 December 1212. It is unclear how Farrer narrowed the date down to 1211 in Early Yorkshire Charters II, but in fact the date of the charter is almost certainly before 1208, as in 1207 Geoffrey was forced into exile in France, following a dispute with his half-brother, King John. Another witness to the charter, Robert de Turnham, was sent abroad by John in 1201 to suppress a revolt in Poitou, and was there for the next four years, being taken prisoner towards the end of 1204 or beginning of 1205, and regaining his liberty towards the end of 1205. He next appears in England in January 1206 with John (Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900, Volume 57). It seems likely, therefore, that the date of the charter can be narrowed, with a fair degree of probability, to 1206-1208.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Wibs
March 2001 and summer 2002. But it is probably not safe to rely too
heavily on when just one of the witnesses could have been present - it
has been long known that witnesses were not always present when
charters were made. See, for example, this chapter, by Dauvit Broun
entitled ''The presence of witnesses and the writing of charters', in
a book brought out by him and others just last year, The Reality
behind Charter Diplomatic in Anglo-Norman Britain:
http://paradox.poms.ac.uk/redist/pdf/chapter4.pdf
In it Broun argues valiantly against the orthodoxy that witnesses did
not have to be present, but he is up against a heavy weight of
evidence and scholarship, summarised in his opening pages.
Matt Tompkins
Matt Tompkins
Nov 3, 2012, 7:14:38 AM11/3/12
to
On Nov 2, 10:09 pm, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> As Will Johnson has pointed out, Turnham was also in England between
> March 2001 and summer 2002.
Sorry, I meant March 2000 and summer 2001 (per his on-line ODNB
> As Will Johnson has pointed out, Turnham was also in England between
> March 2001 and summer 2002.
article).
Matt
Matt Tompkins
Nov 4, 2012, 8:12:20 AM11/4/12
to
> On Nov 2, 10:09 pm, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> > As Will Johnson has pointed out, Turnham was also in England between
> > March 2001 and summer 2002.
>
> > As Will Johnson has pointed out, Turnham was also in England between
> > March 2001 and summer 2002.
>
On Nov 3, 11:14 am, Matt Tompkins <ml...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> Sorry, I meant March 2000 and summer 2001 (per his on-line ODNB
> article).
Oh dear - in fact I meant 1200 and 1201. Festina lente!
> Sorry, I meant March 2000 and summer 2001 (per his on-line ODNB
> article).
Matt
0 new messages