Langetot/Danvers
Cristopher Nash
descents from Alan 'I' de Dunstanville:
>Alan I's son is therefore Walter II
[SNIP]
>I have dug out my notes on Dunstanville to see what there was on the
>Missenden Abbey Cartulary. Charters X and XI should apparently refer
>to the manor of Shiplake which Muriel, daughter of Geoffrey
>fitzWilliam and Emma de Langetot, brought to Alan [II]. Alan and Emma
>are the parents of Alan [III], Walter [IIIa], Geoffrey, Emma, Alice
>and Cecilia. Emma de Langetot married secondly Robert Danvers.
I wonder whether anyone would happen to have information as to which
Robert Danvers this might be? Is he the one shown in --
Sir William Danvers
d. by ca 1197
& Emma Chevauchesul
| Robert Danvers
| b. by ca 1176
| d. living 1212
| | William Danvers
| | d. bef 1247
-- and, if so, is there evidence as to whether Emma de Langetot is
the mo. of Robert's son William?
Thanks!
Cris
--
Kay Allen AG
marriage.
K
Ivor West
Benson seemed to be saying about Emma Langetot was that she married
Geoffrey fitzWilliam and had a daughter Muriel who married Alan
Dunstanville. Then, after Alan died, Muriel married someone unnamed by
whom she had a daughter, also called Muriel, who married Robert
Danvers.
If this is a correct reading, as a granddaughter of Emma Langetot, the
second Muriel would seem to place Robert Danvers in a generation born
c1200.
Ivor West
"Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:a05100300bb441d605eaa@[10.0.1.2]...
Cristopher Nash
And to Kay, too, with my apols! _Memorials of the Danvers Family_
has been on my 'Bodleian/GET' list for years -- or at least since the
2d ed. came out -- & I'm remiss in not having checked it before
posting.
I see from what you say I'd've found a blank on this point anyway.
Following Ivor's news, no 'Muriel de Langetot/Dunstanville' shows up,
by any chance? Don't push yourself with this -- I _will_ get to the
_Memorials_ eventually!
Take care, Kay -- and let others help wherever poss, will you? V.
hard to do sometimes, I know. But now's the time and -- wry grin or
rye -- _you_deserve_ it!
Best,
Cris
--
Rosie Bevan
The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey contains a series of charters involving the
Langetot ladies. A genealogical precis is given below from the cartulary and
other sources.
1.Emma Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
+ NN but possibly Geoffrey fitz William
2. Muriel Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
+ (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1235 [2]
3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1237 [2]
3.Walter de Dunstanville [2]
3. Alice de Dunstanville
+ (1)Thomas Basset
4. Alan Basset [3]
4.Gilbert Basset
+ (2) Gilbert de Baseville d.1212
4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
+ (2)William de Beaumont d. aft Oct 1199 [2]
+ (3) Henry de Ferley d.1224 [2]
+(2)Geoffrey Fitz William d. bef.1180 [5]
2. Cecilia de Langetot (c.1161-1222) [1]
+ (1)Alard fitz William [1] in 1185
+ (1)Baldwin de Coudray [1]
3. Fulk de Coudray d.1252 [1] [7]
[1] Rotuli de Dominabus p.40-41
[2] J.G Jenkins (ed.), The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey : part III (London
: HMSO, 1962) nos. 670-695
[3] H.E.Salter, The Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire, 1195-1291 (Oxford Record
Society, 1930) p.236
[4] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.441
[5] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.972
[6] B.R.Kemp (ed.), Reading Abbey Cartularies (London : Camden Fourth
Series v.31, 1986) p.380
[7] CIPM v.1 no.230
Evidence of a Muriel married to Robert Danvers/d'Anvers, is given when she
and her husband apposed their claim to a fine made between Gilbert de
Baseville and Alan Basset in 1241, over rent in Bepton, Sussex [3] , which
formerly belonged to their uncle Alan de Dunstanville. I think it highly
unlikely that this Muriel could be Muriel de Langetot as she would have been
in her late eighties. It is more likely that Muriel was a daughter of Alice
de Dunstanville by one of her marriages to Thomas Basset or Gilbert de
Baseville, hence the interest in the Dunstanville property in Bepton.
Cris, I would be interested in the evidence for an Emma and Cecilia de
Dunstanville. Do you have a source? Were either of them married to an
Englefield or Pinkeny?
Cheers
Rosie
Hal Bradley
Thank you for the excellent post. I have a question.
If Muriel Langetot was born c. 1155, then her daughter Alice de Dunstanville
was born no earlier than 1168\1169. Yet, Thomas Basset was succeeded by his
son Gilbert in 1182 (DNB 1:1296, 1306). How do you reconcile the
chronological difficulty? As is, the chronology does not allow for Muriel to
be the mother of Thomas Basset's sons, if DNB is correct about the
approximate death date of Thomas Basset. I show that Thomas Basset was born
before 1130. The chronology would work if Muriel was sister to Emma and
both were daughters of Ralph Langetot II.
Thanks for your help.
Hal Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: Rosie Bevan [mailto:rbe...@paradise.net.nz]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:18 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Langetot/Danvers
Dear Cris, Kay and Ivor
The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey contains a series of charters involving the
Langetot ladies. A genealogical precis is given below from the cartulary and
other sources.
1.Emma Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
+ NN but possibly Geoffrey fitz William
2. Muriel Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
+ (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1235 [2]
3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1237 [2]
3.Walter de Dunstanville [2]
3. Alice de Dunstanville
+ (1)Thomas Basset
4. Alan Basset [3]
4.Gilbert Basset
+ (2) Gilbert de Baseville d.1212
4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
snip
Rosie Bevan
The Rotuli de Dominabus states that the two daughters and heirs of Emma
Langetot (heir of Ralph de Langetot) were married to Alan de Dunstanville
and Alard fitzWilliam.
E 40/4847
Grant by Gilbert Basset, at the request of Thomas Basset, his father, and
Aliz de Dunstanvill, his mother, to Alan his brother, to hold Cumton, which
their father gave to Alan, by the service of one knight. Witnesses:- Thomas
de Drunal, Robert de la Mare, Walter de Dunstanvill, and others (named):
[Wilts]
The above PRO abstract shows that Gilbert and Alan were brothers and sons of
Thomas Basset and Alice de Dunstanville, and so I would suspect that Thomas
Basset d. 1182, is not the same as husband of Alice, or his details are
incorrect.
Alan Basset conveyed his inheritance of a knight's fee in Shiplake
(originating from Geoffrey fitz William) by fine to William de Englefield in
1241, to be held of Alan and his heirs. In 1242 William contracted to
provide for the chantry at Missenden which had been patronised by his
predecessors, Geoffrey fitz William, Emma and Muriel Langetot and Geoffrey
de Dunstanville. Kay contacted me today to inform me that William de
Englefield's wife was Emma de Dunstanville.
I hope this makes sense.
Cheers
Rosie
Hal Bradley
I think there is something awry. As far as I can tell, we are talking about
the same family.
Keats-Rohan's "Domesday Descendants", p. 167:
"Thomas Basset, d. 1182, father by his wife Alice de Dunstanville of Thomas
II Basset of Headington, Oxon, Alan, Gilbert (d. 1205/6), ... and Isabella,
wife of Albert III Grelley and then of Guy II de Craon."
The names fit, but the chronology does not.
Gilbert Basset, son of Thomas I Basset is further identified as the founder
of Bicester priory in 1182.
Any further thoughts? Thanks.
HB
Tim Powys-Lybbe
rbe...@paradise.net.nz ("Rosie Bevan") wrote:
> Dear Cris, Kay and Ivor
>
> The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey contains a series of charters involving the
> Langetot ladies. A genealogical precis is given below from the cartulary and
> other sources.
>
> 1.Emma Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
> + NN but possibly Geoffrey fitz William
Why "possibly"? Keats-Rohan, DD 972, is explicit that Geoffrey was the
father of both of Emma's daughters.
> 2. Muriel Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
> + (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
> 3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1235 [2]
> 3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1237 [2]
> 3.Walter de Dunstanville [2]
> 3. Alice de Dunstanville
> + (1)Thomas Basset
> 4. Alan Basset [3]
> 4.Gilbert Basset
And, for completeness, Keats-Rohan adds, DD 167:
4. Thomas II Basset (d. 1219-29)
4. Isabella
> + (2) Gilbert de Baseville d.1212
> 4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
> + (2)William de Beaumont d. aft Oct 1199 [2]
> + (3) Henry de Ferley d.1224 [2]
> +(2)Geoffrey Fitz William d. bef.1180 [5]
> 2. Cecilia de Langetot (c.1161-1222) [1]
> + (1)Alard fitz William [1] in 1185
> + (1)Baldwin de Coudray [1]
> 3. Fulk de Coudray d.1252 [1] [7]
>
> [1] Rotuli de Dominabus p.40-41
> [2] J.G Jenkins (ed.), The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey : part III (London
> : HMSO, 1962) nos. 670-695
> [3] H.E.Salter, The Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire, 1195-1291 (Oxford Record
> Society, 1930) p.236
> [4] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.441
> [5] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.972
> [6] B.R.Kemp (ed.), Reading Abbey Cartularies (London : Camden Fourth
> Series v.31, 1986) p.380
> [7] CIPM v.1 no.230
Thanks for the above, fills a few holes.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie, Hal, et al.,
Thanks for the interesting posts & documentation re: the Dunstanvilles
and their holdings.
I think re: the problem concerning the Basset connection, there is too
much chronological conflict re: the following generations (see the Dunstanville
and Basset descents given below) for Alice de Dunstanville, wife of Thomas
Basset (and evidently mother of several Basset children thereby) to be the
daughter of Muriel (daughter of Geoffrey fitz William). I have concluded that
Alice was in fact the sister of Alan, husband of Muriel. This would leave the
reason for Alan Basset's having a knight's fee in Shiplake (1241) unresolved, but
I would suggest this was a matter of his having been enfeoffed - being a
younger and otherwise somewhat 'unencumbered' son of Alice de Dunstanville - in
that fee by one of his Dunstanville uncles. Alan's brother Thomas was
identified by Walter de Dunstanville as his 'nepos' in charters granting Thomas the
manors of Colyton and Witeford [see below].
Cheers,
John *
____________________
1 Reginald de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1115[1],[2]
Father: [conjectured] Rainald de Warenne (->1106)
Mother: [conjectured] NN de Dunstanville
of Winterburn and Poulton, co. Wilts.
shown by Dugdale during the reign of Henry I as
' giving, the Church of Winterburn, in Com. Wiltes. to the Monks of
Lewes, in Com. Suss.'[2]
~ parentage based on theories and conjectures by Chris Phillips, Ivor
West and others (unproven)[1],[3],[4]
re: his wife Adeliza:
heiress of her father
'The evidence for this is a gift she, as "Adeliza de Insula", made
of land at Poulton [in Mildenhall, Wiltshire], to Tewkesbury Abbey,
for the soul of her husband Reynold de Dunstanville. The gift was
confirmed by Henry I in 1114 [VCH Wilts xii 130; Dugdale ii 66].'[1]
Spouse: Adeliza de Insula
Father: Humphrey de Insula (->1091)
Children: Robert (-<1168)
Alan (-<1157)
1.1 Robert de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Sep 1168, d.s.p.[1],[5]
of Castle Combe, Winterburne and Heytesbury, co. Wilts.
witness to charters of the Empress Matilda at Oxford and Devizes, ca.
1141
received grant of the manor of Heytesbury from Henry II, 1156[1]
purchased the manors of Shalefeld (Shalford) and Aldeford, Surrey
from Robert de Watevill for 100 merks and 11 greyhounds, before 1165:
in 1165,
'Robert de Dunstanvill is returned as holding l Knight's-Fee in
Surrey, of that Honour [of LCare].' Eyton, Vol. V, p. 272[5]
1.2 Alan de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1157[3],[1]
of Nyetimber, Sussex and Colyton, co. Devon, and Idsall (Shifnal), co.
Salop
held 8 knights' fees of the Honour of Arundel
made gift of land in Nyetimber, Sussex, of the Honour of Arundel, to
Lewes Priory during the reign of Stephen, 'as the gift of his
father and mother' - confirmed by Walter de Dunstanville[1]
made grants to Wombridge Priory of land in Leies (later, Prior's Lee),
a manor of the barony of Idsall, co. Salop, before 1156[5]
'was granted Heytesbury and Colyton by Henry II (Pipe Rolls,
1159-1166)' : Ivor West[3]; but see notes re: his brother Robert,
as to Heytesbury[1]
Children: Alice (->1185)
Walter (-1194)
Alan II
1.2.1 Alice de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1185[5]
had the manors of Colyton, co. Devon and Shalford, co. Surrey as part
of her maritagium (possibly direct grants to Thomas Basset)
[deduced from information provided by Ivor West[3] and the Gazetteer
record[6]]
re: her husband Thomas Basset:
of Whitford, Devon
had wardship of his grandson Robert de Grelley at the 1185 return
(Farrer, HKF II:251)[7]
identified as 'of Headington, co. Oxon.' elsewhere, in error
(Headington conferred on son Thomas, 1203 -cf. Sanders, p. 51)[8],[9]
Spouse: Thomas Basset[10]
Death: aft 1185[10],[5]
Father: Gilbert Basset (->1153)
Mother: Edith d'Oilly
Children: Thomas (-1220)
Gilbert (-<1205)
Alan (-1231)
Isabel
1.2.1.1 Thomas Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 1220[11]
of Headington, co. Oxon [11] and Colyton and Whitford, Devon
Named in the Magna Carta as a supporter of King John[12]
identified as Thomas Basset, 'my nephew' in charters of Walter de
Dunstanville;
had grant from uncle Walter de Dunstanville of the manors of Colyton
and Witeford, Devon (Eyton V:284, citing Testa de Nevill)[5]
he 'recovered Deddington, Oxon., which he had given to William Malet
as his daughter's maritagium, upon undertaking to answer to the
King for it (showing that there was issue of the marriage)' -
CP Vol X (Poyntz), p. 672n[11]
also had the manor of Colyton, Devon:
'(Charter) octave of Michael+7 (29 Sept); gr[anted] 1 Sept 1207, by
K[ing] John to Thomas Basset. To be held at the manor (RCh, p.
169).'[6]
Spouse: Philippe Malbank, coheiress of her father
Father: William Malbank (-1176), Baron of Nantwich, co. Chester
Mother: Ada de Beauchamp
Children: Philippe (-<1265), m. 1stly William Malet,
2ndly John Bisset
Joan (-<1265)
Alice (->1252)
1.2.1.2 Gilbert Basset[11]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 24 Dec 1205[10],[5]
of Bicester and Wretchwick, co. Oxon.[13]
Gilbert 'II' Basset, 'held 7 fees of the honour of Wallingford in
1166.' (DD p. 164, citing Red Book of the Exchequer, ed. Hall
(1897), pp. 308-11)[14]
made gift of land in Westcott, co. Bucks. to Bicester Priory
[cf VCH (Oxford) Vol VI, p. 21][15]
founder of Burchester Priory[5]
Spouse: Egeline de Courtenay[15]
Father: Renaud de Courtenay (-1194)
Mother: Hawise de Curci (-1219), heiress of Okehampton, Devon
Children: Eustache (m. 2ndly, Richard de Camville)
1.2.1.3 Alan Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 1231[16]
of Wycombe, co. Bucks (CP Vol IX, Montagu - pp. 76-77)[11]
'Occurs in the Carta of Gilbert de Bolebec in 1166 holding land in
Wicumbe. Alan Basset and Amicia his wife confirmed to Pipewell
the grant of Hugh de Senliz in the fee of Foxton at Braybrook
(BL Add. 37023, fol. 16v).' DD, p. 164[14]
supporter of King John, named as such in Magna Carta[12]
acquired the manor of Winterburne from his cousin Walter de
Dunstanville, as witnessed by Geoffrey FitzPiers, Earl of Essex,
and William Marshal [Dugdale, Baronage, p. 591][2]
had a grant for a market (mercatum) from King Henry III to be held at
his manor of Wootton Basset, 16 Jan 1219[6]
made gift in alms of land in Littlecott 'at the instance of Aline de
Gay his wife', 1229 or later [Adrian Channing, 21 June 1999][17]
Spouse: Aline de Gai[11]
Father: Philip de Gai
Mother: Cecily
Children: Gilbert Basset, of Wycombe, co. Bucks. (-1241)
Fulk Basset, Bishop of London(-1259)
Sir Philip Basset, Justiciar of England (-1271)
(ancestor of Lords le Despenser)
Aline, m. 1stly Drew de Montagu, 2ndly Richard Talbot
NN [Hawise ?], m. William de Lanvallei
NN [Katherine ?], m. John Lovel, of Minster Lovell,
co. Oxon
1.2.1.4a Isabel Basset*[18]
----------------------------------------
she m. lstly Albert de Grelley,[7]
2ndly Guy de Craon
her heir was her son Robert Grelley
Spouse: Guy de Craon, of Freiston, Lincs. - 2nd husband
Death: ca 1205[18]
Father: Maurice de Craon (-1188), of Freiston, co. Lincs.
Mother: Clarice
Children: Petronilla de Craon(-<1263), m. 1stly Oliver de Vaux
Other Spouses Albert de Grelley
1.2.1.4b Isabel Basset* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Albert de Grelley, of Pirton (Periton), co. Oxon - 1st husband
Death: bef Dec 1181[7]
Children: Robert de Grelley, of Pirton, co. Oxon.(ca1174-)
Other Spouses Guy de Craon
1.2.2 Walter de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: 1194[4],[3],[9]
of Castle Combe, Heytesbury and Winterburne, co. Wilts., and Bercham,
Sussex
also held land in Roumaisnil, Normandy[5]
returned in 1165 as holding 'one fee of old feoffment under Adam de
Port, of Herefordshire' and his 'Sussex Tenure of eight Fees in the
Honour of Arundel'[5]
heir to his uncle Robert de Dunstanville, inheriting Heytesbury in
1168[1]
possibly forfeited by King Richard prior to his death, according to
claim of his widow for dower in the manor of Shalford, Surrey[5]
Spouse: Hawise de Preaux[5]
Marr: aft Sep 1189[5]
Children: Walter II (ca1192-<1241)
1.2.2.1 Walter II de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1192[9]
Death: bef 21 Aug 1241[6]
of Castle Combe and Heytesbury, co. Wilts.
held a fair and market at Heytesbury, 26 Mar 1227[6]
Spouse: Petronilla Fitz Alan[5]
Father: William FitzAlan (ca1154-1210)
Mother: Matilda de Lacy
Children: Walter III (-1270)
1.2.3 Alan II de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
of Shiplake, co. Oxon.[3]
returned in 1187 as holding twelve knights' fees in capite in
Cornwall[5]
had gift of manor of Winterburn, co. Wilts. from brother William,
confirmed by King Richard 12 Dec 1194[5]
instructed by King John to seize the lands of son-in-law William
Basset, 5 Sept 1216[5]
Spouse: Muriel fitz Geoffrey
Father: Geoffrey fitz William
Mother: Emma de Langetot
Children: Alan
Walter
Geoffrey
Emma
Alice
Cecilia (-<1208)
1.2.3.1 Alan de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
1.2.3.2 Walter de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
1.2.3.3 Geoffrey de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
1.2.3.4 Emma de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Spouse: William de Englefield [ * see prior post - per Kay Allen]
1.2.3.5 Alice de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
1.2.3.6 Cecilia de Dunstanville
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Feb 1208[5]
Spouse: William Basset [5]
1. Chris Phillips, "Reynold de Dunstanville: Part l," Dec 17, 2000,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
2. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms,
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
3. Ivor West, "Re: Reynold de Dunstanville," Dec 19, 2000,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
4. Chris Phillips, "Dunstanville postscript: Part l," Jan 28, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
5. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John
Russell Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster)
and 133-142 (Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole
Brace and de Bracy).
6. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/ extracted 5 Nov 2001,
Wiltshire [Bassett], Yorkshire [Salvain] - North Duffield.
7. "Honors and Knights' Fees," William Farrer, Litt.D., London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
8. Rosie Bevan, "Origins of the Arden Family," Jul 10, 2000,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
9. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327,"
I. J. Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
10. "Pedigree and Progress," Sir Anthony Wagner, London: Phillimore
& Co., Ltd., 1975.
11. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the United Kingdom.
12. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen
Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
13. Douglas Richardson, "Longespee," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from William
Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (d. 7 Mar 1225/6).
14. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2,
2002, p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday
Descendants: A Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English
Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
15. Richard Borthwick, "Egeline, wife of Gilbert Basset," Apr 20,
1997, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
16. "Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists," Frederick L. Weis
(add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), Genealogical Pub. Co.,
Baltimore, MD, connection of Isabel de Condet and Hugh Bardolf,
as cited by E. Mann, Line 132D-27,-28 in AR7, also, Descendants
of Henry I of Germany (10/30/98), Line 157 (Gerberga of Burgundy
to Emperor Henry III).
17. Douglas Richardson, "Sir Philip Basset," Jun 20, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com see followup, June 22, 1999
(Re: Philip Basset).
18. Kay Allen, AG, "Vaux Genealogy," Feb 23, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com followup on 'Re: DeVaux', December
29, 1998.
____________________
* John P. Ravilious
Ivor West
Alice Dunstanville who married Thomas Basset seems to have been
conflated with her niece, Alice Dunstanville, who married Gilbert
Baseville. The second Alice's sisters, Emma and Cecily, married
William Englefield and William Basset of Ipsden.
It could be that the fine made in 1241 was between Gilbert Baseville,
son of Gilbert Baseville and Alice Dunstanville, and Alan Basset, son
of William Basset and Cecily Dunstanville. In which case their uncle
Alan would be Alan III Dunstanville, son of Alan II Dunstanville and
Muriel. Alan III married Isabel de Valletort.
Ivor
""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:037101c35242$426d89e0$de00...@mshome.net...
Rosie Bevan
Many thanks for putting things straight. It makes much more sense for the
Alan Basset who inherited Shiplake, to be son of William Basset of Ipsden
and Cecily Dunstanville, rather than son of Thomas Basset and Alice de
Dunstanville. Your statement is supported by the fact that under the terms
of the fine, if Alan didn't pay the rent in Bepton to William de Englefield,
a distraint was to be levied on Alan's goods in Ipsden.
The identity of Muriel, wife of Robert Danvers, remains a mystery, but a
search of the PRO online catalogue revealed the following abstracted record,
which shows that lands/rents were held as part of Muriel's maritagium.
E 210/133
Release by Gilbert de Basevile, to William de Englefeld, of all the land in
Sipplake which John Bolle held of him ; and of 10s. rent paid to Gilbert by
Walter son of Sethive for a tenement there ; also of 10s. 8d. rent from the
mill of Sipplake, in exchange for land which Richard Fulcrin held of him and
which Gilbert had formerly given to the said William, but which had been
recovered by Robert de Anvers and Muriel his wife, as the marriage [
portion ] of the said Muriel ; with further release of all Gilbert's right
in any land or rent in Sipplake, or in any debt &c.
Sunday after the apostles Peter and Paul, 27 Henry [III]
In 1234/5 Amy, widow of Geoffrey de Dunstanville, sued Alan Basset, Gilbert
de Baseville and William Engelfield for dower in Shiplake (as well as in
Bepton and Greatham, Sussex, and Tehidy and Penwith in Cornwall, which had
been held by Geoffrey at his death ) [CRR v. XV no. 1372]. This would
indicate that the representatives of the three daughters of Muriel de
Langetot held lands there, meaning Muriel Danvers could be a descendant of
any of them. At this time, and also in the fine of 1241, Alan (III?) de
Dunstanville's widow, Isabel, is mentioned as also holding dower in
Cornwall.
The rent in Shiplake pertaining to Muriel and Robert Danvers appears to have
passed down the Danvers family until it passed to the Englefields by grant,
as indicated by the following PRO record.
E 210/6874
Thomas de Anvers, knight to Roger de Englefeld and Joan his wife: Grant of a
rent in Shiplake (Oxford)
31 Edw.I
Thanks to the further comments of contributors, I've amended the pedigree
of the descendants of Emma de Langetot.
1.Emma de Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
+ Geoffrey fitz William [1]
2. Muriel de Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
+ (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1234 [2]
3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. 1234 [2] [8]
+ Amy (married afterwards Peter de St Melano) [8]
3.Walter de Dunstanville by 1234 [2]
3.Emma de Dunstanville
+ William de Englefield
3.Cecily de Dunstanville
+ William Basset
4.Alan Basset
3. Alice de Dunstanville
+ Gilbert de Baseville d.1212 [2] [6]
4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
+ (2)William de Beaumont d. aft Oct 1199 [2]
+ (3) Henry de Ferley d.1224 [2]
2. Cecilia de Langetot (c.1161-1222) [1]
+ (1)Alard fitz William [1] in 1185
+ (1)Baldwin de Coudray [1]
3. Fulk de Coudray d.1252 [1] [7]
4.Peter de Coudray b.c.1239 [7]
[1] Rotuli de Dominabus p.40-41
[2] J.G Jenkins (ed.), The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey : part III (London
: HMSO, 1962) nos. 670-695
[3] H.E.Salter, The Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire, 1195-1291 (Oxford Record
Society, 1930) p.236
[4] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.441
[5] K.Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.972
[6] B.R.Kemp (ed.), Reading Abbey Cartularies (London : Camden Fourth
Series v.31, 1986) p.380
[7] CIPM v.1 no.230
[8] CRR v.XV no 1372
Citing an article in 'Ancestor', DD 441 says that Alice de Dunstanville,
wife of Thomas Basset, was daughter of Alan, but the following PRO abstract
implies that the father of Adelisa was Walter de Dunstanville. However, it
would be necessary to look at the original to be sure of the exact
interpretation of the term of relationship used.
E 40/4825
Grant by Walter de Dunstanville, to Alan Basset, his grandson, of his manor
of Winterburne. Witnesses:- Peter de Mortuna, Reginald Daivilla, Thomas
Britone, Ralph de Elmer, and others (named): [Wilts.]
[Henry III.]
That Winterbourne Basset was in the hands of Alan, son of Alice de
Dunstanville, is intimated by the attestation of Fulk and Thomas Basset to
charters relating to lands in Winterbourne, such as the one below.
E 40/246
Confirmation by Thomas the Clerk of Eimville, of the quitclaim made by
Walter de Eimvilla, his brother, to Alan Basset, of the same Walter's land
in Winterburn. Witnesses:- Peter son of Herbert, Matthew son of Herbert,
John Luvel, Thomas Basset, Fulk Basset, Reginald de Calne, Hillary de
Bathamtune, and others (named) Dors
(John)
Cheers
Rosie
<i...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:105916425...@ersa.uk.clara.net...
Cristopher Nash
having been away a few days -- I've got to apologize for having no
quick answers of my own.
(Rosie --
>Cris, I would be interested in the evidence for an Emma and Cecilia de
>Dunstanville. Do you have a source? Were either of them married to an
>Englefield or Pinkeny?
-- you'll've spotted by now they were Ivor's contribution!)
I do just want to mention that, re the uncertainty as to which Thomas
Basset is concerned, and Hal's --
>Keats-Rohan's "Domesday Descendants", p. 167:
>
>"Thomas Basset, d. 1182, father by his wife Alice de Dunstanville of Thomas
>II Basset of Headington, Oxon, Alan, Gilbert (d. 1205/6), ... and Isabella,
>wife of Albert III Grelley and then of Guy II de Craon."
>
>The names fit, but the chronology does not.
-- as I've mentioned in earlier posts, DD is sometimes problematic
here, and understandably, given that confusion among Thomases for the
period is chronic.
[ E.g. re DD, 167, K-R gives ambiguously as d. date for "Thomas II
Basset" of Headington (fa. of Philippa who m. Henry, E of Warwick):
"d. 1219/29", about which I wrote <Re: CP Correction: The Earls of
Warwick and the Bohun family> (15 Jan 03) --
[SNIP]
>...Suggesting to me that Keats-Rohan found record of a Thomas of
>Headington dying 1219 and another dying 1229, without addressing
>fully the matter of the risk of confusion between two possible
>Thomases 'of Headington' of this generation. (I don't feel she is
>altogether comfortable with this line; e.g. I note that she speaks
>of Philippa as having only one sister and coheiress, Alice, but
>there is good record of a 3d, Juliana.) ]
(My point here was that there are 2 contemporaneous Thomas of
Headingtons, viz. 'Thomas Basset of Headington' and 'Thomas Basset of
Headington/Kirtlington'.)
I don't mean to suggest that my Jan postings plug the 'pitfall' in
front of us now, but only that for this period the question 'Are we
talking about the same Thomas Basset?' always helps, and to avoid
tripping I'd personally like to step lightly!
I want to sit down to yours as soon as I can now, so there'll be a
slight pause... ($-+>
Cris
--
Cristopher Nash
>Citing an article in 'Ancestor', DD 441 says that Alice de Dunstanville,
>wife of Thomas Basset, was daughter of Alan, but the following PRO abstract
>implies that the father of Adelisa was Walter de Dunstanville. However, it
>would be necessary to look at the original to be sure of the exact
>interpretation of the term of relationship used.
>
>E 40/4825
>Grant by Walter de Dunstanville, to Alan Basset, his grandson, of his manor
>of Winterburne. Witnesses:- Peter de Mortuna, Reginald Daivilla, Thomas
>Britone, Ralph de Elmer, and others (named): [Wilts.]
>[Henry III.]
Yes, Rosie - another old tradition (which I kept to for a time) was
that Alice w. of Thomas Basset was the da. of Walter, not Alan, de
Dunstanville. E.g. VCH (Oxon), 'Bicester', p. 21: "Gilbert, who was
dead by 1154, was succeeded by his son Thomas, a sheriff of
Oxfordshire who married Alice, daughter of Walter Dunstanville." (No
source cited, though following the next sentence on Thomas' s.
Gilbert, VCH gives Boarstall Cart. 324; Rot. de Dominabus (P.R.S.
xxxv), 8 and n. 2; V.C.H. Oxon ii, 94. [I haven't compared these,
though I may have the latter here.])
Cris
--
Ivor West
Following the deaths of Muriel de Langetot's three sons, all s.p.,
(although William Pole says that Geoffrey had a daughter, Sabina, who
married Floyer fitz Richard) it left, as you say, the representatives
of her three daughters by Alan de Dunstanville in possession of
Shiplake and suable for dower by Geoffrey's widow, Amy, and for a
marriage portion by Muriel Danvers. If we follow John Benson's
suggestion, Muriel Danvers would sue as, perhaps, a late half-sister
of the Dunstanville sisters which, if correct, would mean that the
name of Robert Danvers' wife should be deducible as either Muriel
Beaumont or Muriel Ferley whom Danvers would have possibly married
c1210 - 20.
If she doesn't show up as such in the Danvers' pedigrees, presumably
she should be, as you suggest, a Basset, Baseville or Englefield
possibly born c1210-15.
Ivor West
Rosie Bevan
In Rot. de Dominabus (P.R.S. xxxv), p.4, 8 and n 2, Round discusses Thomas
Basset, (and after his death), Gilbert Basset having the custody of [Robert]
de Gresle (Grelley) aged 11 (in 1185), son and heir of Albert Gresle and
Isabella Basset (daughter of Thomas). In 1182 Guy de Craon had paid 200
marcs for Albert's widow, Isabella, and the lands were in the farm of Nigel
fitz Alexander and Robert de Burun.
The following is p. 8, note 2
"Sixhills was a demesne manor of the Gresles under the Honour of Lancaster.
The entry shows that Thomas Basset had been succeeded by Gilbert, his son
and heir (Ancient Deeds, A.4828) by Alice, daughter of Walter de
Dunstanville (ibid, 4847). Gilbert who was founder of Bicester Priory, had a
younger brother, Alan, who had Winterborne from (his grandfather) Walter de
Dunstanville, and Compton (Wilts.) from his father. I owe the references to
these deeds to Mr H.J. Ellis."
On page 7 there is an entry for Alice Basset, possibly widow of Thomas,
holding 6 bovates of land in Bonthorpe worth £8 p.a., in chief from the
king.
"Aliz Basset est in donatione Domini Regis et habet .vj. bovatas terre in
Bunetorp quas tenet in capite de Rege ; et valent per annum .viij. l."
In a footnote Round says that Bonthorpe in Willoughby was held by the Kymes
of the Bishops of Durham.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Ivor West
nepos which should have been translated as nephew rather than grandson
and commentators have thereby assumed Alice was the daughter of Walter
rather than being his sister. As her father, Alan, ( if it doesn't beg
the question) died 1156, Alice and her sons would have had to look to
Alan's heir, her elder brother Walter, for any grants.
Ivor West
""Rosie Bevan"" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:043801c353ee$7d1ed3c0$de00...@mshome.net...
Cristopher Nash
discussion in which it arose - certainly worth a thread of its own.
Rosie Bevan wrote (and thank you, Rosie!) <Re: Langetot/Danvers> 27 Jul 2003:
>In Rot. de Dominabus (P.R.S. xxxv), p.4, 8 and n 2, Round discusses Thomas
>Basset, (and after his death), Gilbert Basset
>
>[SNIP]
>
>The following is p. 8, note 2
>"Sixhills was a demesne manor of the Gresles under the Honour of Lancaster.
>The entry shows that Thomas Basset had been succeeded by Gilbert, his son
>and heir (Ancient Deeds, A.4828) by Alice, daughter of Walter de
>Dunstanville (ibid, 4847). Gilbert who was founder of Bicester Priory, had a
>younger brother, Alan, who had Winterborne from (his grandfather) Walter de
>Dunstanville, and Compton (Wilts.) from his father. I owe the references to
>these deeds to Mr H.J. Ellis.
Meanwhile, DD 441 says of 'Alan de Dunstanvilla': "He left issue
Walter, Alan and Alice, wife of Thomas Basset", and most modern
writers have seemed disposed to support this view.
Superficially, there appears to be good contemporaneous documentation
of Alice's father as both Alan and Walter de Dunstanville. Just what
everyone dreams of: free choice. You might well wonder why, under
the terms over- or hyper-determination, philosophers tear their hair
when writing of this particular kind of freedom -- until you try to
work out a family line.
It should be noted that for its source DD says "Cf. 'Our Oldest
Families: The Bassets', in _Ancestor_, xi (1904), 5-6." This
century-old article (by 'O.B.') does indeed give Alan as fa. of Alice
who m. Thomas Basset (though per my notes this occurs on p. 57). On
the generations in question the article is in fact brief (it's
actually part XIII of many), and is not well documented. So you
might think, Pshaw - let's just forget DD and the other 'modern
writers', drop Alan and go with Walter.
But on 4 Feb 2001 Chris Phillips <Re: A wild idea about the
Dunstanvilles> wrote --
>Alice's husband was called Thomas Basset, not Alan (although one of
>her sons was called Alan).
>
>It would be interesting to know the evidence for Alice's estimated
>birth-date of abt 1134. That would be earlier than the dates I had thought
>of for her brothers Walter I and Alan II (Walter I's son and heir being born
>c.1192 and Alan II's wife being 30 in 1185). The first dated reference I've
>seen to Alice's father Alan I is in the early 1140s.
-- which I take to be based on a contemporaneous source. Chris may
not, though, have meant to imply that the references he had seen
actually stated Alice's paternity.
First thoughts, anybody? Or better still, second thoughts?
The slope may seem in favour of Walter. But my one suggestion, for
starters, would be that we not be too easily lured into imagining (as
I've sensed some in the past have been) that the fact of Walter's
granting/bequeathing lands to Alice is in itself any proof of his
relationship to her.
Cheers,
Cris
--
Chris Phillips
> But on 4 Feb 2001 Chris Phillips <Re: A wild idea about the
> Dunstanvilles> wrote --
>
> >Alice's husband was called Thomas Basset, not Alan (although one of
> >her sons was called Alan).
> >
> >It would be interesting to know the evidence for Alice's estimated
> >birth-date of abt 1134. That would be earlier than the dates I had
thought
> >of for her brothers Walter I and Alan II (Walter I's son and heir being
born
> >c.1192 and Alan II's wife being 30 in 1185). The first dated reference
I've
> >seen to Alice's father Alan I is in the early 1140s.
>
> -- which I take to be based on a contemporaneous source. Chris may
> not, though, have meant to imply that the references he had seen
> actually stated Alice's paternity.
I should have to dig out those old notes on the Dunstanvilles to check what
sources I'd seen stating that Alice was the daughter of Alan I. I'm pretty
sure that the early 1140s reference mentioned only Alan, not a daughter
Alice.
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
> I should have to dig out those old notes on the Dunstanvilles to check
what
> sources I'd seen stating that Alice was the daughter of Alan I. I'm pretty
> sure that the early 1140s reference mentioned only Alan, not a daughter
> Alice.
Fortunately I didn't have to dig too far to find them.
I should say I haven't really been following this thread closely, so I may
not be taking proper account of what's been said, but:
First, on Muriel Danvers, Wrottelsey, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, p. 493,
does seem to place her definitely in the same position as Benson did. In
Hillary 27 Henry III William de Englefeud, Alan Basset and Gilbert de
Boseville sued Robert Danvers and Muriel his wife for half a knight's fee,
excepting 2 carucates, in Shiplake, and the advowson. A pedigree is shown,
giving the children of Alan as Geoffrey (died seised temp H. 2, ob.s.p.),
Emma, Cecily and Alice (with some further details of the sisters'
relationships to the plaintiffs), and then:
"The defendants pleaded that the land was the inheritance of Muriel, the
(second) wife of Alan de Dunstanville, and the mother of the said Muriel,
wife of Robert, and of Emma, cecily and Alice. The plaintiffs denied that
Muriel, the wife of Robert, was a coheir of Geoffrey, and a verdict was
given in their favour, excepting as to that portion of the land which had
formed the marriage portion of Muriel."
So that does seem to show that Muriel the wife of Robert Danvers was a
daughter of Muriel by another marriage. I'm not sure how the "(second) wife"
fits in, or what it means that it's in parentheses.
Secondly, unless Eyton has gone badly wrong, Alice the wife of Thomas Basset
is a daughter of Alan (d. by 1156). I haven't taken very full notes, but at
Eyton ii 275 (or thereabouts), Alice is placed as a sister of Walter (d.
1194), and said to have married Thomas Basset before 1160. A number of
records are discussed. On the one that looks least likely to have been
misinterpreted, my notes say:
"In 1230 it is stated that Richard I, before Walter married Sibil, restored
Shalford to Gilbert Basset, as the right and marriage portion of Alice
Dunstanvill, sister of the said Walter and mother of the said Gilbert, to
which Alice the said Walter had given in married Sibil says that the land
was bought by her husband Walter's uncle Robert. Robert died without heir.
Walter was dissesied in 9 Richard I."
[There seems to be an error about the last date, as he seems to have died in
the year preceding Michaelmas 1195]
From this, it looks as though those who have placed Alice as a daughter -
rather than a sister - of Walter, have done so on the grounds of her son(s)
being described as Walter's "nepos" (as Ivor West suggested).
Chris Phillips
Cristopher Nash
In one swell foop it'd seem you've answered both the question I
started the Langetot/Danvers thread with (was Robert Danvers m. to a
Muriel de Dunstanville?) and the one with which I started this one
(who was the fa. of Alice de Dunstanville who m. Thomas Basset?)
Warm thanks -- I knew we had to call in the doctor.
The problem now will be to decide what the comparative strength is of
competing documents and their advocates, Eyton v. Round.
This is so neat a rerun of British genealogical history of a century
ago it looks like a centennial celebration. Pity they don't seem to
have noticed they disagreed on this particular (moderately important)
point; the fireworks would have been outstanding.
In the end of course we'll simply (?) have to go back to their cited
sources. Unless someone here has a neater manoeuvre in mind?
You see the hitch. If round 1 went to Round, was he truly eaten by Eyton in 2?
Cris
--
Rick Eaton
>> You see the hitch. If round 1 went to Round, was he truly eaten by Eyton in
>> 2?
Please do not use my name in vain :-)
Rick
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> First, on Muriel Danvers, Wrottelsey, Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls, p. 493,
> does seem to place her definitely in the same position as Benson did. In
> Hillary 27 Henry III William de Englefeud, Alan Basset and Gilbert de
> Boseville sued Robert Danvers and Muriel his wife for half a knight's fee,
> excepting 2 carucates, in Shiplake, and the advowson. A pedigree is shown,
> giving the children of Alan as Geoffrey (died seised temp H. 2, ob.s.p.),
> Emma, Cecily and Alice (with some further details of the sisters'
> relationships to the plaintiffs), and then:
> "The defendants pleaded that the land was the inheritance of Muriel, the
> (second) wife of Alan de Dunstanville, and the mother of the said Muriel,
> wife of Robert, and of Emma, cecily and Alice. The plaintiffs denied that
> Muriel, the wife of Robert, was a coheir of Geoffrey, and a verdict was
> given in their favour, excepting as to that portion of the land which had
> formed the marriage portion of Muriel."
>
> So that does seem to show that Muriel the wife of Robert Danvers was a
> daughter of Muriel by another marriage. I'm not sure how the "(second) wife"
> fits in, or what it means that it's in parentheses.
In this context it means that Muriel was the present wife of Alan at
the time of the plea, so that the sentence would be equally accurate
without the qualifying word "second" in parentheses.
Peter Stewart
Rosie Bevan
Many thanks to Chris for clarifying Muriel Danver's maternity - with
the evidence of the plea roll entry there does not seem to be any
doubt that she was a half sister of her Dunstanville siblings.
Looking at the evidence for any clues as to which husband might have
fathered Muriel, there appear to be two which indicate that William de
Beaumont was the most likely candidate.
1. A fine made on 16 Oct 1199 between William de Beaumont and his wife
Muriel and Gilbert de Langetot in Norfolk. Assuming the age given of
Muriel in the Rotuli de Dominabus (30 in 1185)is correct she would
have been 44 at the time of the fine and most likely past childbearing
[Barbara Dodwell, (ed), Feet of Fines for the County of Norfolk
(1198-1202)(PRS NS v.27) no.224.].
2. A charter was made by Alan Dunstanville, Muriel's son, to Missenden
in which he guaranteed that he and his heirs would not claim the right
to continue to have an oratory in the house at Shiplake, which was
erected on account of Muriel's infirmity. This charter was witnessed
by "domino Willelmo de Bellomonte", and is dated by the editor as
being c.1200 [J.G Jenkins, The Cartulary of Missenden Abbey, part III,
(London : 1962) no. 686]
Muriel Danvers would have been born after 1185 (When Alan de
Dunstanville was recorded then as being alive in the Rot de Dom.p.41)
and probably before 1195, and she would appear to be at least a decade
younger than the Robert Danvers given in Cris' pedigree.
As to the paternity of Alice Basset, the record which Chris has cited,
looks very convincing to me that Alice was sister of Walter and
daughter of Alan de Dunstanville. Are you able to give a source for
the original record, Chris?
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bg0plv$nq6$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Cristopher Nash
Cristopher Nash
Rosie wrote --
>Many thanks to Chris for clarifying Muriel Danver's maternity - with
>the evidence of the plea roll entry there does not seem to be any
>doubt that she was a half sister of her Dunstanville siblings.
>
>Looking at the evidence for any clues as to which husband might have
>fathered Muriel, there appear to be two which indicate that William de
>Beaumont was the most likely candidate.
[SNIP]
>Muriel Danvers would have been born after 1185 (When Alan de
>Dunstanville was recorded then as being alive in the Rot de Dom.p.41)
>and probably before 1195, and she would appear to be at least a decade
>younger than the Robert Danvers given in Cris' pedigree.
I think I'd better come clean about this (even tho it's premature
since to-my-shame I've not yet looked at the Danvers _Memorial_),
just to clarify why I asked >which Robert Danvers this might be?<:
Sir William Danvers
d. by ca 1197
& Emma Chevauchesul
| Robert Danvers
| b. by ca 1176, living 1212
| | William Danvers (held Tetsworth fee by ca. 1225; d. bef 1247)
| | | Robert Danvers (living 1279, 1300, prob d. by 1316
when Simon Danvers held Robert's manors)
I.e. I had 2 Robert Danvers in mind. (The descent from this second
theoretically reads:
Simon Danvers
d. ca 1327 or aft
| John Danvers
| d. ca 1347
| & Isabel (of the Lea)
| | Richard Danvers
| | d. living 1394
| | & Agnes Brancaster
| | | John Danvers
| | | & (-- wife of John Danvers)
| | | | Agnes Danvers
| | | | & Sir John Fray
| | | | d. 1461 )
There is no particular reason for assuming that the latter Robert is
any more likely to be the husband of Muriel (if only because, among
other reasons, he may well have had a cousin/uncle of the same name).
The above family are seated at Epwell/Banbury and appear otherwise
confined to Oxon and the south Warks borders, and I see no mention of
association with any of the placenames cited in the current threads,
but this may certainly be owing at least in part to my sources'
having sprung principally from VCH Oxon.
Both of my Roberts may indeed be of an altogether different line of
Danvers, and it'd be helpful to have any word of places linked to the
line that's been considered here, so that if need-be -- to save
confusion -- I can withdraw my bunch from the discussion!
>As to the paternity of Alice Basset, the record which Chris has cited,
>looks very convincing to me that Alice was sister of Walter and
>daughter of Alan de Dunstanville. Are you able to give a source for
>the original record, Chris?
I guess I was hinting the same question -- but to be fair to Chris, I
think (as I said) we need equally to look at Round's sources, i.e.
Ancient Deeds, A.4828 'by Alice, daughter of Walter de Dunstanville'
and 'ibid, 4847'.
Unless someone sees a reason to dismiss them without further ado?
Cheers,
Cris
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote:
<snip>
> Simon Danvers
> d. ca 1327 or aft
> | John Danvers
> | d. ca 1347
> | & Isabel (of the Lea)
> | | Richard Danvers
> | | d. living 1394
> | | & Agnes Brancaster
> | | | John Danvers
> | | | & (-- wife of John Danvers)
She was Alice Verney. See CP XII/2, 484.
> | | | | Agnes Danvers
> | | | | & Sir John Fray
> | | | | d. 1461 )
Keep up the good work: I'm watching with extreme interest!
Cristopher Nash
virtual neighbors!
Tim wrote --
>>John Danvers & (-- wife of John Danvers)
>
>She was Alice Verney. See CP XII/2, 484.
[SNIP]
>Cris Keep up the good work: I'm watching with extreme interest!
Cheers - who knows what might happen? (and would we wanta know if we could?)
Meantime I'll check the Cal of Anc Deeds as soon's I can.
Cris
--
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> As to the paternity of Alice Basset, the record which Chris has cited,
> looks very convincing to me that Alice was sister of Walter and
> daughter of Alan de Dunstanville. Are you able to give a source for
> the original record, Chris?
I wasn't previously, as my notes were rather scanty (having been interested
mainly in the earlier Dunstanvilles), but fortunately I had a chance to
check Eyton today. Below is what Eyton says verbatim. Unfortunately the
original record is lost, and he was working from Dodsworth's notes, which I
hink are at the Bodleian Library.
Eyton, vol. 2, pp. 291, 292:
<<
Sibil de Préaux, now a second time a Widow, continued her suit against
William and Idonea Longespee.-
On May 16, 1230, the cause came to trial at Westminster.- "Sibil de Ferrers"
(so written for Praers) "sued William de Longspee and Idonea his wife, for a
third part of a Knight's-Fee in Shalefeld and Aldeford as her dower, whereof
Walter de Dunstanvill, formerly her husband," (had been seized on the day
when he had espoused her).
William and Idonea say that "Sibil ought not to have dower thereof, because
said Walter was not seized of said land, so as to be able to grant her dower
thereof, neither on the day when he espoused Sibil nor ever afterwards;-
because that King Richard, before Walter married Sibil, restored the said
land to one Gilbert Basset as the right and marriage portion of Alice
Dunstanvill, Sister of said Walter, and Mother of said Gilbert, to which
Alice the said Walter had given the same land in marriage. And (William and
Idonea) produce the Charter of the King (Richard), which testifieth
hereunto."-
And Sibil comes into Court and says, that "the Charter ought not to injure
her, forasmuch as Robert de Dunstanville, Uncle of Walter aforesaid (her
husband), bought that land from Robert Watevile for 100 marks and two
greyhounds, and held it all his life. And because he (Robert) died without
heir of his body, the land descended to the aforesaid Walter as his Nephew
and heir, which Walter held the same all his life, nearly to the last of his
days, until the same King Richard, in the ninth year of his reign, by his
own will and without judicial sentence, disseized him (Walter) of that and
other lands. And to prove this Sibil puts herself on the Country, &c. And
the Court decides that a jury should make inquest thereon, &c."
[Footnote: Dodsworth, vol. 42, fo. 149, quoting Placita de Banco, Easter
Term, 14 Hen. III, Surrey. - The original Roll is lost.]
>>
This looks like a careful translation in which interpretation is clearly
marked using parentheses, so it does look like good evidence of Alice's
place in the pedigree.
But I agree it would be good to look at the evidence quoted by Round, and to
check whether there is really a contradiction here, or whether the word
"nepos" could have been misinterpreted, as Ivor suggested.
I see from my previous notes that elsewhere Eyton says that Walter suffered
forfeiture the Easter preceding October 1194. That would be 5 Richard I, not
9 Richad I.
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
family. I know nothing about the family but hope these will be useful to
those who do.
9 Hen III, Westm', octaves of Holy Trinity [June 1225]; Adam abbot of
Eynsham pet. by brother Will. de Mora, and Henry de Benseworthe and Sarra
his wife ten.; half a hide in Faufleur; a plea; Henry and Sarra quitclaimed
to the abbot; the abbot gave them 19 marks. This concord was made in the
presence of Will. Auvers, brother and heir of Galf. de Auvers, former
husband of Sarra; Will. recognised that the land was the right of the abbot
of the gift of Robert de Auvers, father of William, who had previously given
the land to Sarra as dos, and is her warrant.
[H.E.Salter, The Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire, 1195-1291 (Oxford Record
Society, 1930), p.73].
31 Hen III, Oxford, 3 weeks from Holy Trinity [17 June 1247]; Ric. Talemache
pet. and Ric. de Auvers ten; two parts of a virgate in Tettesworthe, and the
third part which Matillis de Auvers, mother of Richard holds as dos ; a
recognition of a great assise ; Richard Talemache recognised it was the
right of Ric. de Auvers conceded to Richard Talemache and his heirs the half
of two parts, and the half of the rest after the death of Matillis de
Auvers., rendering half a lb. of pepper and doing the foreign service.
[Ibid, p.146]
45 Hen III, Reading, 15 days from the Purification [16 Feb 1261] ; Symon de
Auvers quer, Gilb. de Walcot and Agnes his wife imp. ; a mess. and two
virgates in Kingsclere, Hants. ; warranty of charter ; Gilb and Agnes
recognise it is the right of Symon., of their gift, to be held of them and
the heirs of Agnes; Symon granted them a virgate and two perches of meadow
in Burton in Oxon.
[ibid, p.242]
Going back to Muriel de Langetot and William de Beaumont, I have come across
a Norfolk fine dated 8 John (11 May 1206-30 May 1207), in which Muriel is
described as his widow. The fine was between herself and his son presumably
over dower in 'Timelthorp'.[Walter Rye, A Short Calendar of the feet of
Fines for Norfolk (Norwich, 1885) p.25]. If William had recently died, this
would place Muriel Danvers firmly as his daughter.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com>
To: "Rosie Bevan" <rbe...@paradise.net.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: Alice de Dunstanville's 2 documented fathers
> Yes, Rosie, I agree.
>
> Rosie wrote --
>
> >Many thanks to Chris for clarifying Muriel Danver's maternity - with
> >the evidence of the plea roll entry there does not seem to be any
> >doubt that she was a half sister of her Dunstanville siblings.
> >
> >Looking at the evidence for any clues as to which husband might have
> >fathered Muriel, there appear to be two which indicate that William de
> >Beaumont was the most likely candidate.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> >Muriel Danvers would have been born after 1185 (When Alan de
> >Dunstanville was recorded then as being alive in the Rot de Dom.p.41)
> >and probably before 1195, and she would appear to be at least a decade
> >younger than the Robert Danvers given in Cris' pedigree.
>
> I think I'd better come clean about this (even tho it's premature
> since to-my-shame I've not yet looked at the Danvers _Memorial_),
> just to clarify why I asked >which Robert Danvers this might be?<:
>
> Sir William Danvers
> d. by ca 1197
> & Emma Chevauchesul
> | Robert Danvers
> | b. by ca 1176, living 1212
> | | William Danvers (held Tetsworth fee by ca. 1225; d. bef 1247)
> | | | Robert Danvers (living 1279, 1300, prob d. by 1316
> when Simon Danvers held Robert's manors)
>
> I.e. I had 2 Robert Danvers in mind. (The descent from this second
> theoretically reads:
>
> Simon Danvers
> d. ca 1327 or aft
> | John Danvers
> | d. ca 1347
> | & Isabel (of the Lea)
> | | Richard Danvers
> | | d. living 1394
> | | & Agnes Brancaster
> | | | John Danvers
> | | | & (-- wife of John Danvers)
> | | | | Agnes Danvers
> | | | | & Sir John Fray
> | | | | d. 1461 )
>
> There is no particular reason for assuming that the latter Robert is
> any more likely to be the husband of Muriel (if only because, among
> other reasons, he may well have had a cousin/uncle of the same name).
>
> The above family are seated at Epwell/Banbury and appear otherwise
> confined to Oxon and the south Warks borders, and I see no mention of
> association with any of the placenames cited in the current threads,
> but this may certainly be owing at least in part to my sources'
> having sprung principally from VCH Oxon.
>
> Both of my Roberts may indeed be of an altogether different line of
> Danvers, and it'd be helpful to have any word of places linked to the
> line that's been considered here, so that if need-be -- to save
> confusion -- I can withdraw my bunch from the discussion!
>
> >As to the paternity of Alice Basset, the record which Chris has cited,
> >looks very convincing to me that Alice was sister of Walter and
> >daughter of Alan de Dunstanville. Are you able to give a source for
> >the original record, Chris?
>
> I guess I was hinting the same question -- but to be fair to Chris, I
> think (as I said) we need equally to look at Round's sources, i.e.
> Ancient Deeds, A.4828 'by Alice, daughter of Walter de Dunstanville'
Cristopher Nash
(1) your extremely helpfulthoughts re the 1st husband (seemingly
William de Beaumont) of Muriel and fa. of Muriel who m. Robert
Danvers, and to
(2) your good sightings/citing re Danvers in Oxon, which I appreciate
in answer to my query as to whether the 2 Robert Danvers of Epwell &
Banbury I've mentioned ought to be considered or be ruled out in
relation to the Robert (and Muriel) Danvers recently under discussion
here. The fact is I really wanted to set aside time to study both!
Having had a slightly better chance - tho brief - to do that now, I
do have the feeling that I can't answer my question on the basis of
these - and suspect your silence on the matter (other than to provide
this valuable info) meant you couldn't either! But the pot's begun
to fill, thanks to you, and I think eventually we'll make a stirring
brew (if not stew) of it!
In passing (or maybe it's not just a passing matter?), re yr revised
sequence --
>1.Emma de Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
>+ Geoffrey fitz William [1]
> 2. Muriel de Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
> + (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
> 3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1234 [2]
> 3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. 1234 [2] [8]
> + Amy (married afterwards Peter de St Melano) [8]
> 3.Walter de Dunstanville by 1234 [2]
> 3.Emma de Dunstanville
> + William de Englefield
> 3.Cecily de Dunstanville
> + William Basset
> 4.Alan Basset
> 3. Alice de Dunstanville
> + Gilbert de Baseville d.1212 [2] [6]
> 4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
-- I think I'll have missed something. You're not writing of William
Basset as the fa. of Alan Basset of (High) Wycombe, commonly thought
to have d. 1231-33? And, as well, of Gilbert (Ld. of Wycombe &
Bicester, d. 1205/06) and Thomas (one of 2 called 'of Headington',
believed d. 1219-20), who're widely treated as his brothers? If not,
might you be able to give more details re this Alan?
I can see some justifications for saying Alan of Wycombe who d.
1231-33 was not the bro. of the latter two. (E.g. - off the top of
me head - [1] he is at least once called not bro. but 'kinsman' of
Gilbert; [2] Thomas, traditionally thought his father and who d.
supposedly 1180-82, was succeeded by Gilbert in Alan's lifetime; [3]
an Alan otherwise _seeming_ to be the Alan who d. 1231-33 grants
rights in Wycombe at least twice in 1237;...etc.) But this is
BigTime (another onslaught on DNB, etc), some conventional applecarts
of sizeable dimension would be upset here, and it'd be nice to
firm-up things before basing on this quick single move all the needed
further adjustments.
E.g. what would we do with your --
>Rotuli de Dominabus states that ...
>E 40/4847
>Grant by Gilbert Basset, at the request of Thomas Basset, his father, and
>Aliz de Dunstanvill, his mother, to Alan his brother, to hold Cumton, which
>their father gave to Alan, by the service of one knight.
-- ?
I don't suppose I have to mention again (_!_) that where there
appears to be e.g. one Thomas Basset there may be two, and that now
where there appears to be one Alan Basset there may be two. It just
remains (for us?!) to identify and usefully label em each.
A wee note meantime; you wrote:
>E 40/4825
>Grant by Walter de Dunstanville, to Alan Basset, his grandson, of his manor
>of Winterburne. Witnesses:- Peter de Mortuna, Reginald Daivilla, Thomas
>Britone, Ralph de Elmer, and others (named): [Wilts.]
>[Henry III.]
>
>That Winterbourne Basset was in the hands of Alan, son of Alice de
>Dunstanville, is intimated by the attestation of Fulk and Thomas Basset to
>charters relating to lands in Winterbourne, such as the one below.
As to date, FWI, Rymer's Foedera gives: "22 Aug 1198 / The K.
confirms his charter (dated 12 Dec in the 6 year of his reign) to
Alan Basset and his heirs of the gift, by Walter de Dunstanville, of
the manor of Winterburn. / Roche Aurival. R. I. 67" [Vol I, p. 10]
Yrs e'er,
Cris
--
Rosie Bevan
Thanks for your message.
I've made a few comments below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Alice de Dunstanville's 2 documented fathers
> Rosie - I want to apologize for not having responded to
Apologies unnecessary - in this forum it is nice to be able to pick up
threads and put them down as fancy and information take us.
> (1) your extremely helpfulthoughts re the 1st husband (seemingly
> William de Beaumont) of Muriel and fa. of Muriel who m. Robert
> Danvers, and to
William de Beaumont appears to have been Muriel's second husband, as per my
amended chart.
>
> (2) your good sightings/citing re Danvers in Oxon, which I appreciate
> in answer to my query as to whether the 2 Robert Danvers of Epwell &
> Banbury I've mentioned ought to be considered or be ruled out in
> relation to the Robert (and Muriel) Danvers recently under discussion
> here. The fact is I really wanted to set aside time to study both!
>
> Having had a slightly better chance - tho brief - to do that now, I
> do have the feeling that I can't answer my question on the basis of
> these - and suspect your silence on the matter (other than to provide
> this valuable info) meant you couldn't either! But the pot's begun
> to fill, thanks to you, and I think eventually we'll make a stirring
> brew (if not stew) of it!
I haven't followed the family up any further, so no, sorry there has not
been any progress.
>
> In passing (or maybe it's not just a passing matter?), re yr revised
> sequence --
>
> >1.Emma de Langetot b. c.1125 [1]
> >+ Geoffrey fitz William [1]
> > 2. Muriel de Langetot b.c.1155 [1] [2]
> > + (1)Alan de Dunstanville [1] [2] [4]
> > 3. Alan de Dunstanville d.s.p. by 1234 [2]
> > 3.Geoffrey de Dunstanville d.s.p. 1234 [2] [8]
> > + Amy (married afterwards Peter de St Melano) [8]
> > 3.Walter de Dunstanville by 1234 [2]
> > 3.Emma de Dunstanville
> > + William de Englefield
> > 3.Cecily de Dunstanville
> > + William Basset
> > 4.Alan Basset
> > 3. Alice de Dunstanville
> > + Gilbert de Baseville d.1212 [2] [6]
> > 4. Gilbert de Baseville [6] [2]
>
> -- I think I'll have missed something. You're not writing of William
> Basset as the fa. of Alan Basset of (High) Wycombe, commonly thought
> to have d. 1231-33? And, as well, of Gilbert (Ld. of Wycombe &
> Bicester, d. 1205/06) and Thomas (one of 2 called 'of Headington',
> believed d. 1219-20), who're widely treated as his brothers? If not,
> might you be able to give more details re this Alan?
You are correct in surmising that Alan Basset in the pedigree is not of
Wycombe. This Alan and his father, William, were of Ipsden, Oxon., as Ivor
pointed out. I should have made this clear in the pedigree. I don't know
how/if they connect the Basset family of Headington, but it is interesting
to note that the Giffards had land in Ipsden as well as being the chief
lords of Shiplake.
Below are the texts of the fines
"169.25 Hen III, Oxford a month from Easter [28 Ap 1241] ; Will. de
Englefield quer., Alanus Basset imp ; a knight's fee in Siplake ; warranty
of charter ; A. recognised that it was the right of W. of his gift, to be
held of A. and his heirs rendering yearly at Ippeden a pair of white gloves,
and rendering to the chief lords the services due ; W. granted to A the land
he had in Tehidy, Cornwall and all the lands of the same county which were
of Galf. de Dunstanville, kinsman of W., to be held of W., to be held of W
and his heirs doing the service of two parts of a knight's fee ; also all
that Isabella widow of Alan de Dunstanville held as dos in the county and
which should have reverted to W.. ; as long as I lives, W. will pay A. 100s.
yearly at Ippeden ; W. gave A. 30 marks."
"172.25 Hen III, Lewes, octave of June 24 [1 July 1241] ; Gilb. de Baseville
quer., Alanus Basset deforc. ; £8 of rent in Bepton, Sussex ; plea of
covenant ; G recognised that it was the right of A. and granted to him all
the land in Cornwall which was of Alan de Dunstanville, uncle of G. and A. ;
to hold by the service of a third of a knight's fee ; and also all the land
which Isabella widow of Alan de Dunstanville holds as dos in Cornwall and
which should revert to G. ; A. and his heirs will grant G. and his
heirs100s. yearly as long as I. lives, and subsequently £8 ; if A. does not
pay, distraint may be levied on A's goods at Ipsden, Oxford. Rob. de Auvers
and Muriel his wife appose their claim."
[H.E.Salter, The Feet of Fines for Oxfordshire, 1195-1291 (Oxford Record
Society, 1930) p.236-237.]
The above shows that the three cousins made arrangements with their
inheritance so that Alan Basset had the complete use of the lands in
Cornwall for which he paid rent of £5 to Gilbert and William, while William
de Englefield held the land in Shiplake for which he paid Alan a pair of
white gloves, and Gilbert de Baseville had the rents in Bepton. As there
does not seem to be a reciprocal arrangement between Gilbert and William, it
seems to have been an initiative by Alan Basset to consolidate his third
share in three different places into one complete holding in one location.
What is also of note is that the widow of Alan de Dunstanville's is named
Isabella who is presumably Isabella de Valletort, widow of Alan de
Dunstanville, the younger who had died s.p.by 1235. (Please correct me if I
am wrong here).
Alan Basset of Ipsden appears to be a couple of generations younger than
Alan Basset of High Wycombe, which seems to be confirmed by your information
from Foedera giving the date of the grant of Winterbourne as around 1198.
> >E 40/4825
> >Grant by Walter de Dunstanville, to Alan Basset, his grandson, of his
manor
> >of Winterburne. Witnesses:- Peter de Mortuna, Reginald Daivilla, Thomas
> >Britone, Ralph de Elmer, and others (named): [Wilts.]
> >[Henry III.]
> >
> >That Winterbourne Basset was in the hands of Alan, son of Alice de
> >Dunstanville, is intimated by the attestation of Fulk and Thomas Basset
to
> >charters relating to lands in Winterbourne, such as the one below.
>
> As to date, FWI, Rymer's Foedera gives: "22 Aug 1198 / The K.
> confirms his charter (dated 12 Dec in the 6 year of his reign) to
> Alan Basset and his heirs of the gift, by Walter de Dunstanville, of
> the manor of Winterburn. / Roche Aurival. R. I. 67" [Vol I, p. 10]
Tim recently obtained a copy of the charter of grant from the PRO, so he
might like to say a few words about it.
Hope this has been of help.
Cheers
Rosie
Tim Powys-Lybbe
rbe...@paradise.net.nz ("Rosie Bevan") wrote:
> Dear Cris
>
> Thanks for your message.
>
> I've made a few comments below.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cristopher Nash" <c...@windsong.u-net.com>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 3:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Alice de Dunstanville's 2 documented fathers
<big snip>
> > As to date, FWI, Rymer's Foedera gives: "22 Aug 1198 / The K.
> > confirms his charter (dated 12 Dec in the 6 year of his reign) to
> > Alan Basset and his heirs of the gift, by Walter de Dunstanville, of
> > the manor of Winterburn. / Roche Aurival. R. I. 67" [Vol I, p. 10]
>
> Tim recently obtained a copy of the charter of grant from the PRO, so he
> might like to say a few words about it.
I have nothing to add to the transcription you made, so please quote
that, if relevant.
And if anyone wants sight of the copy, please get in touch.
Rosie Bevan
was obtained by Tim and has been translated courtesy of Chris Phillips.
"Let it be known to those present and future that I Walter de Dunstanville
have given and conceded and by this my charter have confirmed to Alan Basset
my nepoti for his service and homage my manor of Winterborne with all its
appurtenances to wit in villeinages and in services of free men to be held
of me in fee and inheritance by him and his heirs of me and my heirs freely
and quietly for the service of half a knight's fee to be made for all
services
Witnesses Piers de Mortuna, Philip his son, Reginald de Daiville, Thomas
Britone, William the cleric, William de [?Tornewik], Ralph de Elmer, Herbert
de [?Stuttuna],Walter de Lees, Leonard his brother, Robert de [?Lintot] and
many others."
As can be seen, 'nepoti' is used and although in this context it could mean
nephew or grandson, the general consensus is that Alan Basset was nephew of
Walter de Dunstanville.
Cheers
Rosie
Cristopher Nash
That helps a lot - thanks!
I notice a posting from Kay of 22 Feb 99 <Re: VAUX GENEALOGY>
'mostly from Moriarty's Notebooks' --
> >11. Isabel Basset of Headington, Oxon.
[SNIP]
> >22. Thomas Basset; d. 1182.
> >23. Alice de Dunstanville of Shiplake, Oxon.; d. after 1181.
Does that run OK with your calculations?
Cris
Rosie wrote --
--