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Ellen de Abernethy, Wife of (1) Reginald le Cheyne and (2) David de Graham
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John P. Ravilious
Jan 3, 2016, 3:54:51 PM1/3/16
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Hello All,
In 2005 there was extended discussion concerning the 1353 dispensation for Sir David de Graham and Elen, widow of Reginald le Cheyne [1]. At that time the discussion dealt in large part with the consanguinity between Elen and Sir David due to her previous identification as a daughter of the Earl of Strathearn. Evidence has been noted that indicates this filiation is in error.
Recent research in the National Records of Scotland catalogue located an interesting charter of King Robert II dated 22 May 1387 confirming a grant "by Elen de Abirnethy, daughter and one of the heirs of deceased Lawrence de Abirnethy, knight, with consent of the Prioress and nuns of Hadyngtoune, to William de Douglas de St[ra]broc, knight, her nephew..." [2]. The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent and grandchild.
Sir William Douglas of Strathbrock (hereinafter Strabrock) was a participant in the crusade against the Prussians in 1390/1, a member of the following of his kinsman Sir William Douglas of Nithsdale (d. 1391) [3]. He was the elder son of Mariota le Cheyne by her 1st husband, John Douglas, after whose death she had a charter dated 26 May 1366 granting her lands in Strabock and Caithness to her and her issue by Douglas [4]. William's paternal grandparents are known to have been Sir John Douglas (younger brother of William Douglas, 'the knight of Liddesdale') and his wife Agnes Graham, daughter of Sir John Graham of Dalkeith and Abercorn [5]. His maternal grandparents were Reginald le Cheyne of Duffus and Strabrock (d. before Oct 1353) and his wife Helen, or Elen - previously alleged to have been a daughter of the Earl of Strathearn.
Sir Laurence de Abernethy was certainly not a grandfather of William Douglas of Strabrock: the records concerning his life place him in the same generation as William's great-grandparents. Sir Laurence was in fact a rather well-known character in Scots history, a younger son of Sir William de Abernethy of Saltoun. He appears in the account of the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, riding in answer to a summons to support the English drive towards Stirling: being advised that the English had been defeated, he changed sides and joined Sir James Douglas in pursuit. Sir Laurence granted a charter of his lands of Maxpoffle in Roxburghshire to Melrose ca 1320 [6]. He died some time after 1338, having been forfeited for again changing his allegiance: his son Hugh received his lands back before dying without issue, leaving his sisters as coheirs [7].
As to the parentage of Elen de Abernethy, no direct evidence has been found to identify her mother. However, the information available concerning the grandparents of William Douglas of Strabrock make it certain she was not his aunt. Agnes de Graham, the wife of Sir John de Monfode and Sir John de Douglas, had become the mother of the heirs of both men during the lifetime of Sir Laurence de Abernethy [8]. She could not have been the mother of Sir Laurence de Abernethy's children. Elen could not have been the half sister of either John de Douglas or of Mariota le Cheyne, and aunt (of the half blood or otherwise) of William Douglas of Strabrock. Chronologically, given what is known about the widow of Reginald le Cheyne and their daughter Mariota in particular, Elen can only be identified as the known wife of Reginald le Cheyne and the mother of his daughters. The reference in the 1387 charter was clearly to her grandson ("nepos") William Douglas, the son of her daughter Mariota le Cheyne.
The other sister and coheir of Hugh Abernethy evidently married Melville of that Ilk. John Melville of that Ilk granted a lease of his lands in Hawthornden and Grieston to William Douglas in 1386, and again in a charter dated at Dalkeith on 10 July 1399, calling him " my cosyne Schir Williame of Douglas of Strabroke " [9]. John Melville's mother, or possibly grandmother, was evidently one of the sisters and coheirs of Hugh Abernethy of Hawthornden, and these leases allowed his cousin William Douglas to unify the Abernethy lands in Hawthornden and Grieston, if only for a time.
Laurence de Abernethy
Lord of Hawthornden (MLN) &c.; d. aft 1338
I
______________I___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
Hugh Elen = 1) Reginald le NN =(Thomas ?)
(dsp) d. aft I Cheyne I Melville
1386 ? I = 2) David I of that
grantor of I Graham (1353) I Ilk
Hawthornden I I
and Grieston I I
(bef 22 May 1387) I I
I John Melville of
__________I_________ that Ilk; grantor
I I of Hawthornden and
1)John de = Mariota = 2)John Mary = Grieston to cousin
Douglas I I Keith Nicholas Sir William Douglas,
(d. bef I I Sutherland 1386, 1399 (Fraser,
1369) I I Melvilles III:13-14
I V nos. 19, 20, 22)
_____I_______________ cf. CP VI:80
I I
Sir William Sir James
of Strabrock
and Hawthorden
grantee of
Hawthornden
ca 1387
Hawthornden and Grieston
1386, 1399
One additional matter discussed in 2005 was whether or not Elen was the mother of Sir David Graham's eldest son and heir Patrick. It is apparent from the foregoing that she was not. Patrick Graham was likely born in or before 1348, as he was doubtless of age when he witnessed a charter dated at Edinburgh, 18 Apr 1369 [10]. Patrick was knighted in early 1372 or before, as Sir Patrick Graham and his wife Matilda were grantees of a charter dated at Mugdock on 24 August 1372 [11]. The dispensation for David Graham and Elen indicates that there were no children of the union prior to 1353, otherwise reference to the legitimation of such issue would have been made [12].
Patrick Graham was undoubtedly the son of David de Graham by a previous first wife whose name is unknown, otherwise he would have been Elen's eldest son and heir. The Grahams of Montrose would not have quietly relinquished a rightful claim to the lands of Sir Laurence de Abernethy.
Cheers,
John
Notes
[1] SGM, SP Addition: Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham, Nov. 2005. The dispensation in question read as follows:
" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "
[Bliss,ed. Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 514.] The Latin text in Theiner does in fact state the relationship was within the fourth degree of consanguinity ("quarto consanguinitatis gradu").
[2] National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Drummond family of Hawthorden, Midlothian, GD230/568, as currently translated:
" Charter by King Robert II confirming grant by Elen de Abirnethy, daughter and one of the heirs of deceased Lawrence de Abirnethy, knight, with consent of the Prioress and nuns of Hadyngtoune, to William de Douglas de St[ra]broc, knight, her nephew, of the lands of Hawthornden in the barony of Govertoune and sheriffdom of Edinburgh, the lands of Buteland and Lechernard, held of the Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem, in the said sheriffdom, and the lands of Greueston in the sheriffdom of Peebles.
Witnesses: Walter, Cardinal of the Papal see, [Bishop of St. Andrews], John, Bishop of Dunkeld, Chancellor; John, Earl of Carric, Steward; Robert, Earl of Fyf and Menteth; James, Earl of Douglas; Archibald de Douglas and Thomas de Erskyne, knights. Seal missing. (Not in RMS.)"
URL for NRS:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/research/catalogues-and-indexes
[3] There is an interesting record of a loan for which this band entered into an agreement for repayment at Bruges on 10 December 1390:
"Bond by William Douglas, lord of Neythtdale, Robert Stewart, lord of Durisdeer, William Douglas of Strabrok, kt., and James Douglas of Strabrok to Laurence Prestoun and David Pullay, burgess of Edynburgh, for P26:13:4d. sterling money of Scotland paid to them as a loan at town of Brugis and to be repaid there at Easter next. Sealed with seals of William Douglas, lord of Neythtdale, and of James Douglas, with signet of Robert Stewart, in absence of his seal, and with seal of James Douglas in absence of that of William Douglas of Strabrok, his brother "
[National Records of Scotland, Crown Office Writs, AD1/27]
Following their arrival in Danzig, James Douglas acknowledged a debt to Sir Robert Stewart, due the following Easter [Duke of Hamilton MSS., Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts, Reports Parts 6-7 (London, 1887), pp. 210-1, no. (5).
[4] SP VI:343, cites RMS i, no. 228. Mariota had a dispensation to marry John de Keith due to affinity, as he was related to John de Douglas in the 3rd degree (mandate to the bishop of Aberdeen dated at St. Peter's, 12 March 1368/9: W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and J. A. Tremlow, B.A., Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland (London: for the Public Record Office, 1902), Vol. IV, p. 78. There was a subsequent faculty granted to the bishop of Glasgow to again dispense John de Keeth and Mary de Cheyn for the same affinity, dated at Fondi on 22 January 1378/9 (Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of Clement VII of Avignon, 1378-1394 (Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., 1976, Pub. Scot. Hist. Soc.), p. 22.
[5] SGM, Re: Agnes de Graham, wife of John de Monfode, 20 Jan 2014. See also J. Ravilious, Agnes de Graham, wife of (1) John de Monfode and (2) Sir John de Douglas, The Scottish Genealogist LXI(4):129-133.
[6] Cosmo Innes, ed., Liber Sancte Marie de Melros (Edinburgh: for the Bannatyne Club, 1837), Vol. II, pp. 384-5, no. 421.
[7] A. A. M. Duncan, trans., John Barbour: The Bruce (Edinburgh: Canongate Classics, 1997), p. 445. See also A. Fraser, The Frasers of Philorth (Edinburgh, 1879), Vol. II, pp. 158-9 with regard to Sir Laurence's career and his issue.
[8] J. Ravilious, Agnes de Graham, wife of (1) John de Monfode and (2) Sir John de Douglas, The Scottish Genealogist LXI(4):129-133.
[9] Sir William Fraser, The Melvilles: Earls of Melville and the Leslies, Earls of Leven (Edinburgh: published for the author, 1890), Vol. III, pp. 14-17, nos. 19, 20, 22. In Charter 19 dated at Linlithgow 1 April 1386, William Douglas of Strabrock is incorrectly identified as "son and heir of James Douglas of Strabrock", evidently an error in rendering the name of his father John from the original text.
[10] ' Patrick de Grame, son and heir of David de Grame Lord of Dundaf' was a witness [together with 'Robert Steward of Scotland, John Stewart of Kyle Earl of Carric, Patrick de Grame, son and heir of David de Grame Lord of Dundaf, William de Galbrath, Murdach de Levenax, and others'] to a charter of Robert de Erskyne of that Ilk, Knight, to Patrick Fleming, second son to Malcolm Fleming of Biggar, of all his land within the barony of Leygneh in excambion for the lands of Dalnotir and Garscaden 'in comitat de Lennox, vic. de Bumbarton', dated at Edinburgh, 18 Apr 1369 [Robertson's Index, pp. 116-7]
[11] Paul, ed., The Scots Peerage VI:214.
[12], Theiner, Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum, p. 305, no. DCXII, states only that the children to be born of the union were declared legitimate ("prelim suscipiendam ex huiusmodi matrimonio legitimam nuntiantes").
In 2005 there was extended discussion concerning the 1353 dispensation for Sir David de Graham and Elen, widow of Reginald le Cheyne [1]. At that time the discussion dealt in large part with the consanguinity between Elen and Sir David due to her previous identification as a daughter of the Earl of Strathearn. Evidence has been noted that indicates this filiation is in error.
Recent research in the National Records of Scotland catalogue located an interesting charter of King Robert II dated 22 May 1387 confirming a grant "by Elen de Abirnethy, daughter and one of the heirs of deceased Lawrence de Abirnethy, knight, with consent of the Prioress and nuns of Hadyngtoune, to William de Douglas de St[ra]broc, knight, her nephew..." [2]. The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent and grandchild.
Sir William Douglas of Strathbrock (hereinafter Strabrock) was a participant in the crusade against the Prussians in 1390/1, a member of the following of his kinsman Sir William Douglas of Nithsdale (d. 1391) [3]. He was the elder son of Mariota le Cheyne by her 1st husband, John Douglas, after whose death she had a charter dated 26 May 1366 granting her lands in Strabock and Caithness to her and her issue by Douglas [4]. William's paternal grandparents are known to have been Sir John Douglas (younger brother of William Douglas, 'the knight of Liddesdale') and his wife Agnes Graham, daughter of Sir John Graham of Dalkeith and Abercorn [5]. His maternal grandparents were Reginald le Cheyne of Duffus and Strabrock (d. before Oct 1353) and his wife Helen, or Elen - previously alleged to have been a daughter of the Earl of Strathearn.
Sir Laurence de Abernethy was certainly not a grandfather of William Douglas of Strabrock: the records concerning his life place him in the same generation as William's great-grandparents. Sir Laurence was in fact a rather well-known character in Scots history, a younger son of Sir William de Abernethy of Saltoun. He appears in the account of the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, riding in answer to a summons to support the English drive towards Stirling: being advised that the English had been defeated, he changed sides and joined Sir James Douglas in pursuit. Sir Laurence granted a charter of his lands of Maxpoffle in Roxburghshire to Melrose ca 1320 [6]. He died some time after 1338, having been forfeited for again changing his allegiance: his son Hugh received his lands back before dying without issue, leaving his sisters as coheirs [7].
As to the parentage of Elen de Abernethy, no direct evidence has been found to identify her mother. However, the information available concerning the grandparents of William Douglas of Strabrock make it certain she was not his aunt. Agnes de Graham, the wife of Sir John de Monfode and Sir John de Douglas, had become the mother of the heirs of both men during the lifetime of Sir Laurence de Abernethy [8]. She could not have been the mother of Sir Laurence de Abernethy's children. Elen could not have been the half sister of either John de Douglas or of Mariota le Cheyne, and aunt (of the half blood or otherwise) of William Douglas of Strabrock. Chronologically, given what is known about the widow of Reginald le Cheyne and their daughter Mariota in particular, Elen can only be identified as the known wife of Reginald le Cheyne and the mother of his daughters. The reference in the 1387 charter was clearly to her grandson ("nepos") William Douglas, the son of her daughter Mariota le Cheyne.
The other sister and coheir of Hugh Abernethy evidently married Melville of that Ilk. John Melville of that Ilk granted a lease of his lands in Hawthornden and Grieston to William Douglas in 1386, and again in a charter dated at Dalkeith on 10 July 1399, calling him " my cosyne Schir Williame of Douglas of Strabroke " [9]. John Melville's mother, or possibly grandmother, was evidently one of the sisters and coheirs of Hugh Abernethy of Hawthornden, and these leases allowed his cousin William Douglas to unify the Abernethy lands in Hawthornden and Grieston, if only for a time.
Laurence de Abernethy
Lord of Hawthornden (MLN) &c.; d. aft 1338
I
______________I___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I I I
Hugh Elen = 1) Reginald le NN =(Thomas ?)
(dsp) d. aft I Cheyne I Melville
1386 ? I = 2) David I of that
grantor of I Graham (1353) I Ilk
Hawthornden I I
and Grieston I I
(bef 22 May 1387) I I
I John Melville of
__________I_________ that Ilk; grantor
I I of Hawthornden and
1)John de = Mariota = 2)John Mary = Grieston to cousin
Douglas I I Keith Nicholas Sir William Douglas,
(d. bef I I Sutherland 1386, 1399 (Fraser,
1369) I I Melvilles III:13-14
I V nos. 19, 20, 22)
_____I_______________ cf. CP VI:80
I I
Sir William Sir James
of Strabrock
and Hawthorden
grantee of
Hawthornden
ca 1387
Hawthornden and Grieston
1386, 1399
One additional matter discussed in 2005 was whether or not Elen was the mother of Sir David Graham's eldest son and heir Patrick. It is apparent from the foregoing that she was not. Patrick Graham was likely born in or before 1348, as he was doubtless of age when he witnessed a charter dated at Edinburgh, 18 Apr 1369 [10]. Patrick was knighted in early 1372 or before, as Sir Patrick Graham and his wife Matilda were grantees of a charter dated at Mugdock on 24 August 1372 [11]. The dispensation for David Graham and Elen indicates that there were no children of the union prior to 1353, otherwise reference to the legitimation of such issue would have been made [12].
Patrick Graham was undoubtedly the son of David de Graham by a previous first wife whose name is unknown, otherwise he would have been Elen's eldest son and heir. The Grahams of Montrose would not have quietly relinquished a rightful claim to the lands of Sir Laurence de Abernethy.
Cheers,
John
Notes
[1] SGM, SP Addition: Helen of Strathearn, wife of Sir David Graham, Nov. 2005. The dispensation in question read as follows:
" 1353.
7 Id. Oct. To David de Grame, knight, and Helen, relict
Avignon. of Reginald Chene, knight, of the dioceses of
(f. 448.) Brechin and St. Andrews.
Dispensation, at the request of John, king
of France, to intermarry, they being related
in the fourth degree of kindred. [Theiner, 305.] "
[Bliss,ed. Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters,
Vol. III (A.D. 1342 - 1362) [London: PRO, 1897, reprinted
1971], p. 514.] The Latin text in Theiner does in fact state the relationship was within the fourth degree of consanguinity ("quarto consanguinitatis gradu").
[2] National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Drummond family of Hawthorden, Midlothian, GD230/568, as currently translated:
" Charter by King Robert II confirming grant by Elen de Abirnethy, daughter and one of the heirs of deceased Lawrence de Abirnethy, knight, with consent of the Prioress and nuns of Hadyngtoune, to William de Douglas de St[ra]broc, knight, her nephew, of the lands of Hawthornden in the barony of Govertoune and sheriffdom of Edinburgh, the lands of Buteland and Lechernard, held of the Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem, in the said sheriffdom, and the lands of Greueston in the sheriffdom of Peebles.
Witnesses: Walter, Cardinal of the Papal see, [Bishop of St. Andrews], John, Bishop of Dunkeld, Chancellor; John, Earl of Carric, Steward; Robert, Earl of Fyf and Menteth; James, Earl of Douglas; Archibald de Douglas and Thomas de Erskyne, knights. Seal missing. (Not in RMS.)"
URL for NRS:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/research/catalogues-and-indexes
[3] There is an interesting record of a loan for which this band entered into an agreement for repayment at Bruges on 10 December 1390:
"Bond by William Douglas, lord of Neythtdale, Robert Stewart, lord of Durisdeer, William Douglas of Strabrok, kt., and James Douglas of Strabrok to Laurence Prestoun and David Pullay, burgess of Edynburgh, for P26:13:4d. sterling money of Scotland paid to them as a loan at town of Brugis and to be repaid there at Easter next. Sealed with seals of William Douglas, lord of Neythtdale, and of James Douglas, with signet of Robert Stewart, in absence of his seal, and with seal of James Douglas in absence of that of William Douglas of Strabrok, his brother "
[National Records of Scotland, Crown Office Writs, AD1/27]
Following their arrival in Danzig, James Douglas acknowledged a debt to Sir Robert Stewart, due the following Easter [Duke of Hamilton MSS., Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts, Reports Parts 6-7 (London, 1887), pp. 210-1, no. (5).
[4] SP VI:343, cites RMS i, no. 228. Mariota had a dispensation to marry John de Keith due to affinity, as he was related to John de Douglas in the 3rd degree (mandate to the bishop of Aberdeen dated at St. Peter's, 12 March 1368/9: W. H. Bliss, B.C.L. and J. A. Tremlow, B.A., Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers Relating to Great Britain and Ireland (London: for the Public Record Office, 1902), Vol. IV, p. 78. There was a subsequent faculty granted to the bishop of Glasgow to again dispense John de Keeth and Mary de Cheyn for the same affinity, dated at Fondi on 22 January 1378/9 (Charles Burns, ed., Calendar of Papal Letters to Scotland of Clement VII of Avignon, 1378-1394 (Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., 1976, Pub. Scot. Hist. Soc.), p. 22.
[5] SGM, Re: Agnes de Graham, wife of John de Monfode, 20 Jan 2014. See also J. Ravilious, Agnes de Graham, wife of (1) John de Monfode and (2) Sir John de Douglas, The Scottish Genealogist LXI(4):129-133.
[6] Cosmo Innes, ed., Liber Sancte Marie de Melros (Edinburgh: for the Bannatyne Club, 1837), Vol. II, pp. 384-5, no. 421.
[7] A. A. M. Duncan, trans., John Barbour: The Bruce (Edinburgh: Canongate Classics, 1997), p. 445. See also A. Fraser, The Frasers of Philorth (Edinburgh, 1879), Vol. II, pp. 158-9 with regard to Sir Laurence's career and his issue.
[8] J. Ravilious, Agnes de Graham, wife of (1) John de Monfode and (2) Sir John de Douglas, The Scottish Genealogist LXI(4):129-133.
[9] Sir William Fraser, The Melvilles: Earls of Melville and the Leslies, Earls of Leven (Edinburgh: published for the author, 1890), Vol. III, pp. 14-17, nos. 19, 20, 22. In Charter 19 dated at Linlithgow 1 April 1386, William Douglas of Strabrock is incorrectly identified as "son and heir of James Douglas of Strabrock", evidently an error in rendering the name of his father John from the original text.
[10] ' Patrick de Grame, son and heir of David de Grame Lord of Dundaf' was a witness [together with 'Robert Steward of Scotland, John Stewart of Kyle Earl of Carric, Patrick de Grame, son and heir of David de Grame Lord of Dundaf, William de Galbrath, Murdach de Levenax, and others'] to a charter of Robert de Erskyne of that Ilk, Knight, to Patrick Fleming, second son to Malcolm Fleming of Biggar, of all his land within the barony of Leygneh in excambion for the lands of Dalnotir and Garscaden 'in comitat de Lennox, vic. de Bumbarton', dated at Edinburgh, 18 Apr 1369 [Robertson's Index, pp. 116-7]
[11] Paul, ed., The Scots Peerage VI:214.
[12], Theiner, Vetera Monumenta Hibernorum et Scotorum, p. 305, no. DCXII, states only that the children to be born of the union were declared legitimate ("prelim suscipiendam ex huiusmodi matrimonio legitimam nuntiantes").
taf
Jan 3, 2016, 6:46:16 PM1/3/16
to
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 12:54:51 PM UTC-8, John P. Ravilious wrote:
> The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily
> questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to
> inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent
> and grandchild.
Minor quibble here. I would suggest that this is not a case of inaccurate usage, but rather that the meaning of the term had expanded to encompass any younger male kinsman - that this was an accurate use of the term as it was understood and applied at the time in question (independent of its original meaning).
> The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily
> questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to
> inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent
> and grandchild.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Jan 4, 2016, 12:20:22 PM1/4/16
to
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 1:54:51 PM UTC-7, John P. Ravilious wrote:
< Hello All,
<The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily <questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to <inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent and <grandchild.
The Latin word nepos before 1250 can mean either nephew, grandson, or kinsman. Sometime after 1250 the word nepos continued to be used for a nephew or grandson, but stopped being used for a kinsman. Because of the loose nature of this term before 1250, the great medieval historian, J.H. Round, typically left the word untranslated. And, in my own work, I always try to include the actual Latin word used for kinship in my citations.
Historians since Round's time routinely interpret the word almost exclusively to mean nephew, whereas you're correct in saying that the word means both nephew and grandson. Regarding the 1387 document which is under discussion, you have set forth good evidence to indicate that the word in that instance should be interpreted as grandson. In other words, good research, John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
< Hello All,
<The identification of William Douglas as 'nephew' of Elen can be readily <questioned, as the Latin noun <nepos> has in the past been found to <inaccurately reflect a relationship that was in fact that of grandparent and <grandchild.
Historians since Round's time routinely interpret the word almost exclusively to mean nephew, whereas you're correct in saying that the word means both nephew and grandson. Regarding the 1387 document which is under discussion, you have set forth good evidence to indicate that the word in that instance should be interpreted as grandson. In other words, good research, John.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
riemorese...@gmail.com
Jan 7, 2016, 8:54:03 PM1/7/16
to
Let me point out an interesting reference regarding this I just encountered. In Sir H.H. Campbell, Bt., et al., The Manuscripts of the Duke of Roxburghe (H.M. Stationary Office, 1894), the authors state on page 4:
The lands of Borthwickshiels in Roxburghshire are dealt with in Nos 9-14 infra. In the first writ, dated c. 1425, they are in the possession of Sir William Douglas of Strathbrock who acquired them by marriage or descent from an heiress of Sir Laurence Abernethy. He granted the lands to George Crichton of Cairns who sold them to the Kers. This George Crichton was afterwards created Earl of Caithness. He is said to have had two wives, but the name of the second only has hitherto been known The relationship, however, stated by Sir William Douglas implies that Crichton was his son-in-law.
The charter referenced is translated on page 11:
Borthwickshiels
9 Charter by William of Douglas of Strabrok (Strathbrock) knight granting and selling to his son ("filio") George of Cryghtoun of Carnys, his whole lands of Borthwykeschelys in the barony of Chawmerlayn-newtoun within the sheriffdom of Roxburgh for 400 merks Scots paid to the granter; to be held to George Crichton, his heirs and assignees, of Sir William and his heirs for rendering yearly to him and his heirs the services due and wont which Sir William and his heirs were bound to render to the lord superior. Witnesses, the Abbots of Calkow (Kelso), Melrose, Holyroodhouse and of Newbattle. James of Douglas lord of Abircorne, Sir James of Douglas lord of Dalketh, Sir Walter of Ogilvy and Sir Patrick of Ogilvy, knights; John of Fawside, James of Dundas and others. Not dated but c 1425. Seal attached. Shield bearing ermine on a chief two stars. Legend illegible.
The lands of Borthwickshiels in Roxburghshire are dealt with in Nos 9-14 infra. In the first writ, dated c. 1425, they are in the possession of Sir William Douglas of Strathbrock who acquired them by marriage or descent from an heiress of Sir Laurence Abernethy. He granted the lands to George Crichton of Cairns who sold them to the Kers. This George Crichton was afterwards created Earl of Caithness. He is said to have had two wives, but the name of the second only has hitherto been known The relationship, however, stated by Sir William Douglas implies that Crichton was his son-in-law.
The charter referenced is translated on page 11:
Borthwickshiels
9 Charter by William of Douglas of Strabrok (Strathbrock) knight granting and selling to his son ("filio") George of Cryghtoun of Carnys, his whole lands of Borthwykeschelys in the barony of Chawmerlayn-newtoun within the sheriffdom of Roxburgh for 400 merks Scots paid to the granter; to be held to George Crichton, his heirs and assignees, of Sir William and his heirs for rendering yearly to him and his heirs the services due and wont which Sir William and his heirs were bound to render to the lord superior. Witnesses, the Abbots of Calkow (Kelso), Melrose, Holyroodhouse and of Newbattle. James of Douglas lord of Abircorne, Sir James of Douglas lord of Dalketh, Sir Walter of Ogilvy and Sir Patrick of Ogilvy, knights; John of Fawside, James of Dundas and others. Not dated but c 1425. Seal attached. Shield bearing ermine on a chief two stars. Legend illegible.
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