Descent from Thierry of Autun to Eleanor of Aquitaine
Alan B. Wilson
Autun the same person as Makhir?" I posted a line of descent
from Thierry to Eleanor of Aquitaine. Adding further
identification of some spouses and titles, it is here repeated:
52. Thierry (Theoderic) of Autun Count (Circa 730 - 804)
& Aude \ Aldana (Circa 732 - 804), dau. of Karl Martel
53. William I "de Gellone" of Toulouse Count (Circa 765 - 28 May 812)
& Kunigunde
54. Bernard I Marquis of Septimania (Circa 795 - 844)
& Dhuoda ( - After 2 Feb 843)
55. Regelinde of Agen Countess (Circa 830 - )
& Wulgrin I of Perigord & Angouleme Count (Circa 815 - 3 May 886)
56. William II of Perigord & Agen Count (Circa 864 - Circa 918)
& Regilinde (Circa 864 - )
[Moriarty identifies Regilinde as daughter of Robert "the Strong",
Count of Paris and Marquis of Anjou, but most sources do not
make any identification.]
57. Emma of Perigord (Circa 905 - )
& Boso I de la Marche & Perigord Count (Circa 905 - After 975),
son of Sulpice de Charroux, Count de la Haute-Marche
58. Adalbert I de la Haute-Marche Count (Circa 945 - 997)
& ? Aisceline de Limoges (Circa 950 - Before 997),
daughter of Geraud, Viscount of Limoges
59. Bernard I de la Marche (Circa 986 - 1047)
& Amelia de Montignac (Circa 990 - 1072),
daughter of Geraud de Montignac and Nonia de Granol
60. Almodis de la Marche (Circa 990 - 17 Nov 1075)
& Pons II William of Toulouse Count (990 - Circa 1061),
son of William III Taillefer, Count of Toulouse
61. William IV of Toulouse Count (1040 - 1094)
& Emma de Mortaigne (Circa 1058 - ),
daughter of Robert, Count of Mortaigne
62. Philippa \ Maud de Toulouse (Circa 1073 - 28 Nov 1117)
& William VII of Poitou Count, IX of Aquitaine Duke
(22 Oct 1071 - 10 Feb 1126/1127)
63. Guillaume X of Aquitaine Duke (1099 - 9 Apr 1137)
& Eleanor de Chatellerault ( - After Mar 1130),
daughter of Aimery I de Chatellerault & Dangerose de l'Isle Bouchard
64. Eleanor of Aquitaine Duchess (1122 - 31 Mar 1204)
& Henry II "Curt Mantel" of England King (5 Mar 1132/1133 - 8 Jul 1189)
The above line of descent can be traced in Schwennicke
(ed.) Europaische Stammtafeln, following volume and table
numbers by the generation numbers used above in parentheses:
iii, 731 (52-55); iii, 817 (55-57); iii, 819 (57-60); iii, 773
(58); iii, 763 (60-62); ii, 76 (62-64); ii, 82-83 (64). The
same line of descent can be traced in Moriarty, The Plantagenet
Ancestry, following his page numbers by generation numbers:
213-215 & 232 (52-55); 43 (55-57); 42 (57-62); 36 (62-64); 2
(64).
While none of the genealogical collections are free of
error, I had thought that Europaische Stammtafeln and Moriarty
enjoyed fairly good repute. However Nat Taylor, on 6 Jan, after
commenting on the Thierry=Makhir thesis, added: "Note that some
of the connection between the Autun/Saint Guilhem family and
later dynasties are over-optimistically presented in ES,
although the descent through Wulgrin of Angouleme is accepted as
well supported . . . ." I infer that there are one or more
errors after generation 55 in the above list.
In an effort to locate the error(s) I have rechecked
several additional sources.
Weis, Ancestral Roots, in which errors are rare, only
covers a portion of this descent: 185 (59-62); 110 (62-64).
Stuart, Royalty for Commoners, in which there are quite
a few errors, in this case confirms the line of descent: 329
(52-57); 327 (57-60); 374 (60-61); 160 (61-62); 88 (62-64).
Louis de Mas Latrie, "Tresor de chronologie. d'histoire
et de geographie pour l'etude et l'emploi des documents du Moyen
Age," Paris, 1889 is an old source. P. 1687, "Comtes ou ducs de
Toulouse" (52-54); p. 1682, "Ducs et marquis de Septimanie ou de
Gothie" (53-55); p. 1659, "Comtes de Perigord (55-57); p. 1617,
"Comtes de la Marche" (57-60); p. 1687, "Comtes ou ducs de
Toulouse" (60-62); p. 1661. "Comtes de Poitiers et ducs
d'Aquitaine ou de Guyenne" (62-64).
Eberhard Winkhaus, "Ahnen zu Karl dem Grossen und
Widukind," 1950 begins with Wulgrim I of Angouleme. P. 23,
"Angouleme" (55-56); p. 139, "Perigord" (55-57); p. 107 "La
Marche" (57-60); p. 160 "Toulouse" (60-62); p. 141 "Poitou II"
(62-64). On p. 139, in the section on the counts of Perigord
and Agen, Winkhaus lists Bernard I, the brother of Emma, as her
father. Moriarty had noted and corrected this error on p. 43.
W. H. Turton's "The Plantagenet Ancestry" (1928), while
quite unreliable, shows 10 (52-59); 81 (59-60); 8 (60-62); 7
(62-64).
Peter Truhart's "Regents of Nations" (1984), while not a
genealogy, shows successions which are consistent with portions
of the above line of descent. E.g., counts of Perigord:
Wulgrin {866-886} count d'Angouleme;
William {886-920}, son of Wulgrin;
Boso I "le Vieux" { -968}, count de La Marche, son-in-law of William.
Among counts of La Marche:
Boso I "le Vieux {944-968}, son of Sulpice;
Bernard I {1006-1047}, grandson of Boso I "le Vieux".
Among counts of Toulouse:
Pons "le Mauvais" {1037-1060}, son of William III Taillefer;
William IV {1060-1088}, son of Pons.
While there are questions about the parentage of some of
the spouses in this line of descent (e.g., whether Thierry's
wife, Aude, was daughter of Karl Martel, and William II of
Perigord's wife, Regilinde, was daughter of Robert "the Strong",
I have not been seen anything in these secondary compilations
which casts doubt on any essential link(s) in the line of
descent.
If any of you who know the historical literature can
identify the error(s) in this line, or refer me to some source
where I would find it (them) for myself, I would appreciate it.
I do like to patch my data base when errors are uncovered.
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Camilla von Massenbach
> I am sorry for that, I was trying to send it on to my dad, who I thought
would be interested.. I mailed i back here instead. (blush)
Camilla
> W. H. Turton's "The Plantagenet Ancestry" (1928), while
> quite unreliable, shows 10 (52-59); 81 (59-60); 8 (60-62); 7
> (62-64).
>
> Peter Truhart's "Regents of Nations" (1984), while not a
> genealogy, shows successions which are consistent with portions
> of the above line of descent. E.g., counts of Perigord:
> Wulgrin {866-886} count d'Angouleme;
> William {886-920}, son of Wulgrin;
> Boso I "le Vieux" { -968}, count de La Marche, son-in-law of William.
>
etc..
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Camilla von Massenbach Tel: +44 (181) 994 8417
Fax: +44 (181) 994 6472
Email: cam...@algroup.co.uk
Nathaniel Lane Taylor
<GEN-ME...@mail.eworld.com> wrote:
> On 5 Jan in a message under the title of "Is Thierry of
> Autun the same person as Makhir?" I posted a line of descent
> from Thierry to Eleanor of Aquitaine. Adding further
> identification of some spouses and titles, it is here repeated:
> While none of the genealogical collections are free of
> error, I had thought that Europaische Stammtafeln and Moriarty
> enjoyed fairly good repute. However Nat Taylor, on 6 Jan, after
> commenting on the Thierry=Makhir thesis, added: "Note that some
> of the connection between the Autun/Saint Guilhem family and
> later dynasties are over-optimistically presented in ES,
> although the descent through Wulgrin of Angouleme is accepted as
> well supported . . . ."
Alan,
My comments were not intended to impugn the Angouleme-La
Marche-Toulouse-Aquitaine line above Eleanor, which to my knowledge is OK
(although I'm not checking every source I regard as definitive on this
subject). Some other lines of descent from the s. 9 Auvergne dynasty
proceeding from Saint Guilhem have been called into question. Interested
persons might want to check the work of Christian Laurenson-Rosas, _Les
princes de l'Auvergne_ or some such title, which does a conservative
reconstruction of some of Guilhem's (Thierry's) descendants. And note,
too, that the problem of the identity of various "Bernards" in the mid
ninth century, which has direct bearing on the descendants of Thierry, is
still considered unresolved by some historians.
Nat Taylor