FULK THE BLACK
Gordon Fisher
I show Fulk III of Anjou, Fulk the Black, as 26th ggf. After reading the
following description of him, I decided to ask the list if anyone knows how
to get rid of an ancestor.
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
"Not all founders [of monasteries] were known for their kindness. Fulk
of Anjou, plunderer, murderer, robber, and swearer of fale oaths, a truly
terrifying character of fiendish cruelty, founded not one but two large
abbeys. This Fulk was filled with unbridled passion, a temper directed to
extremes. Whenever he had the slightest difference with a neighbor he
rushed upon his lands, ravaging, pillaging, raping, and killing; nothing
could stop him, least of all the commandments of God. This appalling man
had countless crimes upon his conscience, but when seized with a fit of
remorse he abandoned himself to incredible penances. Thus the very tomb of
St. Martin, whose monks he had ill-treated, saw him prostrate, with bare
feet and in penitent's dress; and four times during his life he went to
Jerusalem as a devout pilgrim, treading half-naked the sorrowful road of the
passion while two of his servants flogged him until the blood flowed,
crying, "Lord, receive thy perjured Fulk!" "
--- Richard Erdoes, *AD 1000: Living on the Brink of Apocalypse*, 1988
(reprint 1995) p 12
Of course, someone might claim he was repenting (4 times! -- although I
believe Runciman says he went to Jerusalem only 3 times), and so should be
forgiven. I wonder if Hitler did anything along these lines before he
totaled himself in the bunker?
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <1996120603...@sherman.shentel.net>, Gordon Fisher wrote:
> I show Fulk III of Anjou, Fulk the Black, as 26th ggf. After reading the
> following description of him, I decided to ask the list if anyone knows how
> to get rid of an ancestor.
>
> "Not all founders [of monasteries] were known for their kindness. Fulk
> of Anjou, plunderer, murderer, robber, and swearer of fale oaths, a truly
> terrifying character of fiendish cruelty, founded not one but two large
> abbeys. This Fulk was filled with unbridled passion, a temper directed to
> extremes. Whenever he had the slightest difference with a neighbor he
> rushed upon his lands, ravaging, pillaging, raping, and killing; nothing
> could stop him, least of all the commandments of God. This appalling man
> had countless crimes upon his conscience, but when seized with a fit of
> remorse he abandoned himself to incredible penances. Thus the very tomb of
> St. Martin, whose monks he had ill-treated, saw him prostrate, with bare
> feet and in penitent's dress; and four times during his life he went to
> Jerusalem as a devout pilgrim, treading half-naked the sorrowful road of the
> passion while two of his servants flogged him until the blood flowed,
> crying, "Lord, receive thy perjured Fulk!" "
> --- Richard Erdoes, *AD 1000: Living on the Brink of Apocalypse*, 1988
> (reprint 1995) p 12
>
> I wonder if Hitler did anything along these lines before he
> totaled himself in the bunker?
Fulk is spoken of elsewhere with admiration. R. W. Southern, The Making of
the Middle Ages, pp. 83-86, calls him (86) a 'man of note' and a 'pioneer
in the art of feudal government,' particularly in the building and
strategic use of stone castles. Bernard Bachrach's biography of Fulk is
more openly admiring in an Ayn Rand sort of way. Fulk may not have been
particularly sensitive, but a fitting progenitor for the likes of Henry II
& Edward I.
Nat Taylor
Richard Borthwick
>Hello Gordon,
>Fulk Nerra is my ancestor, too, & probably ancestor to at least tens of
>thousands?!
>Did you read anything about his strange wife, Melusine? She was believed
>to be the daughter of Lucifer! Fulk the Black came back from his travels
>with the beautiful Melusine. They had four children. Melusine rarely
>attended Mass, & always left before the equivalent of the
>communion/sacrament (I'm not RC). Fulk was pressured into making her stay,
>& had four knights hold her in her place one day. She flew(!) out the
>church window, taking two of their children with her!
>If you have read any more about Melusine, & where she came from or went to,
>I'd love to hear from you.
>BJ.
>
The story is recounted in *The Plantagenet Chronicles* (Goldaming UK, 1995)
edited by Elizabeth Hallam, p.22. The source of the story is Gerald of
Wales. The daughter of Satan is not named in Hallam's work. Melusine was
reputed by legend to be a familiar of the Lusignan.
Gordon Fisher
Nat et alia: I've looked at Southern's book, one I've much enjoyed, and I
see I'd forgotten what Southern said about Fulk the Black, basing himself on
the report of Fulk's grandson, Count Fulk Rechin. Fulk the Black, says the
latter, built 13 castles, won 2 pitched battles, built 2 abbeys, and went
twice to Jerusalem. (Southern observes that it's "almost certain" that Fulk
went to Jerusalem 3 times.) Southern says Fulk was "a pioneer in the art of
feudal government." "In them," says Southern, speaking of Fulk the Black
and his contemporary, the Duke of Normandy, "the alternation of headlong
violence with abrupt acts of remorse and atonement, which characterises the
early feudal age, has its full play". So violence of the sort Fulk engaged
in during his constructive acts was just an expression of the Zeitgeist, the
Spirit of the Early Feudal Age, and we shouldn't condemn it? Hmmmm.
Southern concludes: " ... on the whole, the secular leaders of the early
eleventh century must be judged by what they did, and not by what they
thought or intended. Judged by this standard Fulk Nerra is the founder of
the greatness of the County of Anjou." (p 87).
This calls to mind the old sardonic remark to the effect that Hitler *did*
build the Autobahn (with some help), not to mention the Volkswagen, one of
which I owned in the 1960s. Hitler (thanks to his army) did win some
pitched battles, up to a point (Stalingrad?), built some large structures
(thanks to Albert Speer?), and -- well, no, he didn't go to Jerusalem, just
to various countries he repossessed, to Compiegne and (I suppose)
Versailles, where they made the infamous treaty. I guess if Hitler and his
party had won, scribes of an age his grandchildren would be, would be
calling to our attention Hitler's contributions to the greatness of
Grossdeutschland.
But then, maybe Southern was just being a realist. Maybe greatness of one
kind does grow out of conquering territory for one's own to expand in, and
those who are killed in the process, belonging as they do to others, are
expendable in some great scheme of things. I must admit that ever since I
was shown in boot camp during World War II a film called "Kill or Be
Killed", designed to make us happy in our work (as the Japanese overseer
says in the film "Bridge on the River Kwai"), I've had trouble overcoming
persistent thoughts that one of the foremost underlying mechanisms of this
world, as far as humans are concerned, is like that of (it appears) all
other organisms: love thy neighbor, but be ready to suppress all the rest
(and even a few neighbors, if they don't behave right), or otherwise they
will suppress you. "Suppress" is to be replaced with "kill" in extreme
circumstances.
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
D. Spencer Hines
Gordon Fisher wrote:
> <clip>
> But then, maybe Southern was just being a realist.<Clip>
Dear Gordon,
And perhaps you are beginning to understand Realpolitik. But it is a bit over the top to compare Fulk Nerra
with Adolph Hitler. Don't you agree? There is simply no common scale of measurement between the two and it is an egregious
error to weigh them on the same scale. A mathematician would not really attempt that would he?
>
> Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
--
D. Spencer Hines-----Exitus acta probat----President George Washington
(1732-1799)
Matman
In article <ntaylor-0812...@cis-ts2-slip15.cis.brown.edu>, nta...@fas.harvard.edu says...
>
>In article <1996120603...@sherman.shentel.net>, Gordon Fisher wrote:
>
>> I show Fulk III of Anjou, Fulk the Black, as 26th ggf. After reading the
>> following description of him, I decided to ask the list if anyone knows how
>> to get rid of an ancestor.
>>
>> "Not all founders [of monasteries] were known for their kindness. Fulk
>> of Anjou, plunderer, murderer, robber, and swearer of fale oaths, a truly
>> terrifying character of fiendish cruelty, founded not one but two large
>> abbeys. This Fulk was filled with unbridled passion, a temper directed to
>> extremes. Whenever he had the slightest difference with a neighbor he
>> rushed upon his lands, ravaging, pillaging, raping, and killing; nothing
>> could stop him, least of all the commandments of God. This appalling man
>> had countless crimes upon his conscience,
>Fulk is spoken of elsewhere with admiration. R. W. Southern, The Making of
>the Middle Ages, pp. 83-86, calls him (86) a 'man of note' and a 'pioneer
>in the art of feudal government,' particularly in the building and
>strategic use of stone castles. Bernard Bachrach's biography of Fulk is
>more openly admiring in an Ayn Rand sort of way. Fulk may not have been
>particularly sensitive, but a fitting progenitor for the likes of Henry II
>& Edward I.
>
>Nat Taylor
Yep, and I think it was Alan Bullock who said that all the Great Men
of History are bad men.
However I often find historians often talk about how bad these guys wre
but forget to tell us in their academic books, exactly what terrible
things they did, apart from generalised raping and pillaging. But there
is one attested story about Fulk: he returned
one day to find his wife (his first wife - Elizabeth of Gatinais,
who was also his cousin) with her lover, and beseiged the castle.
Fearing to fall into his hands, she leapt from the castle window, but
survived the fall. He then had her burnt at the stake in her wedding
dress. I think I read this in Bacherach's book, but this is from
memory.
Of course he did marry again! I read somewhere that he kept his son
the famous Geoffrey martel in a dog kennel.
I'm always amazed that with all these wonderful stories in
the medieval chronicles, medieval historians just want their students
to write about 'state-building', 'feudal development' and the sort
of stuffy things mentioned by Southern.
Matt
D. Spencer Hines
Matman wrote:
>
> Yep, and I think it was Alan Bullock who said that all the Great Men
> of History are bad men.
> <snip>
>
> I'm always amazed that with all these wonderful stories in
> the medieval chronicles, medieval historians just want their students
> to write about 'state-building', 'feudal development' and the sort
> of stuffy things mentioned by Southern.
>
> Matt
One of the reasons, certainly not the only one, is the "Rise of the Economic Historians"
as early as Charles and Mary Beard and continuing into the present. University History Departments
are cluttered with the refuse of this academic movement, which primarily studied previous State and
Economic models----Feudalism and Capitalism---- in order to show how inferior they were to the
anticipated Utopia of Marxian Socialism----if properly implemented by the Academic Experts and
Philosopher Kings. The works of the Canadian-American socialist, John Kenneth Galbraith are
ripe with this rationale. And, of course, several generations of American students have been
exposed to his tripe----beginning with "The Affluent Society" in the 1950's.
Even at the Yale and Harvard Law Schools today, one sees a good deal of this taught as an
uderlying yet implicit theme in many courses. It is unreasonable to expect the Medieval Historians
to have dodged this bullet and been more objective and catholic in their historical interests. After
all, the medievalists sought tenure in these same departments---often controlled by the Marxist Historians.
Tom Camfield
In article <1996120804...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>, Richard Borthwick
<rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU> wrote:
> The story is recounted in *The Plantagenet Chronicles* (Goldaming UK, 1995)
> edited by Elizabeth Hallam, p.22. The source of the story is Gerald of
> Wales. The daughter of Satan is not named in Hallam's work. Melusine was
> reputed by legend to be a familiar of the Lusignan.
Who/what was "the Lusignan"? Lusignan sounds a lot like a medieval family
line I have buried somewhere around here in my notes...connected to the
early Bourchiers if I remember correctly.
--
Tom Camfield - camf...@olympus.net
Todd A. Farmerie
That would be a set of 13 consecutive Hughs, perhaps best known for Hugh
IX being engaged to Isabel of Angouleme before John stepped in, and Hugh
X who married her after John's demise. Younger branches also held the
crusader kingdoms of Jerusalem (from which they probably inherited the
Melusine tradition) and Cyprus, the County of Evreux, the Earldom of
Pembroke.
taf
Don Stone
[previously censored because of problem with gateway]
From: camf...@olympus.net (Tom Camfield)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: FULK THE BLACK
Followup-To: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 02:18:55 +0300
Message-ID: <camfield-1...@ptpm024.olympus.net>
References: <1996120804...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Xref: paladin.american.edu soc.genealogy.medieval:9092
In article <1996120804...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>, Richard Borthwick
<rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU> wrote:
> The story is recounted in *The Plantagenet Chronicles* (Goldaming UK, 1995)
> edited by Elizabeth Hallam, p.22. The source of the story is Gerald of
> Wales. The daughter of Satan is not named in Hallam's work. Melusine was
> reputed by legend to be a familiar of the Lusignan.
Who/what was "the Lusignan"? Lusignan sounds a lot like a medieval
family
line I have buried somewhere around here in my notes...connected to the
early Bourchiers if I remember correctly.