Who was Sven Forkbeard, king of Denmark ?
P.MONIZ
Dear friends,
Do you have any information about him ?
What was his true Danish name ?
Carlos Moreira __o
etpm...@ci.ua.pt -\<,
Aveiro, Portugal (_)/(_)
Tony Ashdon
Carlos
Sveyn "Forkbear" Haraldsson, I King of Denmark
Father was Harold "Bluetooth"Gormsson, II King of Denmark acc 944
Mother was Gyrid Oldfsson
Tony ash...@ix.netcom.com Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-ston, MA USA
Richard Borthwick
950 (but may have died much earlier ca.936). His father Harald Bluetooth d.
before 988 (maybe 986) but was certainly alive and ruling in 970. So Sveyn's
accession in Denmark was probably around 986. I don't think his mother's
name is known for certain. If it was a Gyda (Gytha) daughter of Olaf, she
would be designated as Gytha Olafsdatter/Olafsdottir.
Richard
John Yohalem
----------
> From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU>
> To: GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
> Subject: Re: Who was Sven Forkbeard, king of Denmark ?
> Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 9:25 AM
Richard, I think you misunderstood. Tony from Baaaston said Harald (I not
II, by the way) succeeded in 944. And Sveyn's grandfather was Gorm the Old,
not Orm, the generally accepted first king of the Danish state as we know
it, the longest uninterrupted monarchy in Europe. (Margarethe II is
directly descended from all three of these kings, though not from Sven's
son Knut the Great.)
Jean Coeur de Lapin
Gary K. Jacobson
Tony Ashdon wrote:
>
> In <545s5t$b...@news.ci.ua.pt> etpm...@ci.ua.pt (P.MONIZ) writes:
> >
> >Dear friends,
> >
> >Do you have any information about him ?
> >What was his true Danish name ?
> >
> >Carlos Moreira __o
> >etpm...@ci.ua.pt -\<,
> >Aveiro, Portugal (_)/(_)
Here is a ahnenlist that deals with the descendancy of Gorm Den Gamle down to Sven
Estridsen:
1st GENERATION
1 SVEND II ESTRIDSEN: b Abt 988 d 29 Apr 1076
King of Denmark, used his mother's ancestry
to legitimize his claim to the throne. Sven had
many bastard children, five of whom were king of
Denmark at one time or another!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2nd GENERATION
2 ULF THORGILDSSON b Abt 967 Murdered abt 1026 in Roskilde
Jarl in England
3 ESTRID MARGARET SVENSDATTER b Abt 967 d 9 May ????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3rd GENERATION
4 THORGILS SPRAKLING b Abt 936
5 SIGRID
6 SVEN "TVESKAEG" or "FORKBEARD" HARALDSEN b Abt 965 d 3 Feb 1014
GAINSBOROUGH,LINCOLNSHIRE,,ENGLAND
7 GUNNHILD SYGRYDA SWIETOSLAVA b Abt 970 POLAND; d Aft 1014
Some sources claim that he fathered Estrid with Sigrid
Storraada, but Sigrid's existence is debatable. Many previous
threads have dealt with that. (Oh, please not again!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th GENERATION
8 STYRBJORN STARKE OF SWEDEN OLOFSSON b Abt 959; d 986
9 TYRE HARALDSDATTER BLAUZAHN b Bef 1000; d 18 Sep 1000
12 HARALD VII GORMSSON "BLAATAND" OR "BLUETOOTH" b Abt 910 d 1 Nov 986/987
JOMSBORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5th GENERATION
24 GORM "DEN GAMLE" OR "THE OLD" HARDEKNUDSSON? b Abt 840 d Abt 940
Jylland, DENMARK. He may have been the son of Hardeknud, son of Sigurd "Snake
in the Eye, Son of Ragnar Lodbrok, a legemdary Viking Chieftain.
25 THYRE KLAKKSDOTTIR DANEBOD - SOME SOURCES SAY SHE WAS THE DAUGHTER
OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that she was the daughter of
Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
My main source is "Nachkommen Gorms des Alten" by S. Otto Brenner
Gary K. Jacobson
Rochester, Minnesota, USA
E-Mail: gar...@millcomm.com
jacobs...@mayo.edu
Homepage: http://www.millcomm.com/~gary983/index.html
"May I not seemed to have lived in vain"
the last words of the astronomer Tycho Brahe
in 1601.
David Collyer
>Carlos
>
>Sveyn "Forkbear" Haraldsson, I King of Denmark
>
>Father was Harold "Bluetooth"Gormsson, II King of Denmark acc 944
>Mother was Gyrid Oldfsson
>
I have it that Sveyn's mother's name is uncertain. It could be Harold's
first wife Gunhilda; his 2nd wife Cyrid or a Concubine.
David
>
Stewart Baldwin
John Yohalem <ench...@ESCAPE.COM> wrote:
>----------
>> From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU>
>> To: GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
>> Subject: Re: Who was Sven Forkbeard, king of Denmark ?
>> Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 9:25 AM
>>
>> >In <545s5t$b...@news.ci.ua.pt> etpm...@ci.ua.pt (P.MONIZ) writes:
>> >>
>> >>Dear friends,
>> >>
>> >>Do you have any information about him ?
>> >>What was his true Danish name ?
>> >>
>> >>Carlos Moreira __o
>> >>etpm...@ci.ua.pt -\<,
>> >>Aveiro, Portugal (_)/(_)
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >Carlos
>> >
>> >Sveyn "Forkbear" Haraldsson, I King of Denmark
>> >
>> >Father was Harold "Bluetooth"Gormsson, II King of Denmark acc 944
>> >Mother was Gyrid Oldfsson
>> >
>> >Tony ash...@ix.netcom.com Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-ston, MA USA
>> >
>> I don't think Sveyn Forkbeard acc.944. His grandfather k. Orm was death
>by
>> 950 (but may have died much earlier ca.936). His father Harald Bluetooth
>d.
>> before 988 (maybe 986) but was certainly alive and ruling in 970. So
>Sveyn's
>> accession in Denmark was probably around 986. I don't think his mother's
>> name is known for certain. If it was a Gyda (Gytha) daughter of Olaf, she
>> would be designated as Gytha Olafsdatter/Olafsdottir.
>>
>> Richard
>Richard, I think you misunderstood. Tony from Baaaston said Harald (I not
>II, by the way) succeeded in 944. And Sveyn's grandfather was Gorm the Old,
>not Orm, the generally accepted first king of the Danish state as we know
>it, the longest uninterrupted monarchy in Europe. (Margarethe II is
>directly descended from all three of these kings, though not from Sven's
>son Knut the Great.)
>Jean Coeur de Lapin
A few miscellaneous comments:
1. Archaeological studies indicate that Gorm the Old apparently died
in or near the year 958, aged between 40 and 50, or to be more
precise, what is believed to be his body (which was aged 40-50 by
examining the skeleton) was buried in a coffin which was made from a
tree which was was chopped down in the year 958, as dated by the
science of dendrochronology. See the article on Gorm in "Medieval
Scandinavia - an Encyclopedia" (New York and London, 1993) and the
sources cited there.
2. Gorm was not the first king of Denmark. In fact, there were quite
a few kings of Denmark whose succession can be reasonably well
established between the late eighth and late ninth centuries.
Unfortunately, the genealogical relationships of those kings are very
difficult to disentangle, and no later kings can be proven to descend
from them. Gorm is the king with whom the well documented
genealogical continuity begins, but it is unclear whether his reign
marks a new starting point, or just the time when the documentation
starts to become available again.
3. Harald I or II, like many medieval monarchs, never put a number in
front of his name, and such numbers are generally assigned for the
convenience of modern historians, who do not always agree on what
number to assign. I have seen both I and II, as well as some larger
numbers, assigned to this Harald. There was in fact a well documented
ninth century king of Denmark named Harald, and an even earlier one
whose existence is indicated indirectly in one of the Frankish annals.
The Danish pseudohistory of Saxo also included some kings named
Harald, and those who believed that "history" assigned a different
number to the Harald in question (I forget which number). I don't
know that any of the Danish kings named Harald ever used a number
during their own lifetime, so my guess is that there is no "official"
numbering. [Which brings up an interesting question: If none of the
previous kings having that name used a number in their lifetime, and
historians disagree on how many there were, how does a new king of the
name choose a number? Coin flip? Vote of the people? It doesn't
actually have to be the right number, as the kings of Sweden named
Charles will attest to. ;-) ]
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
Gary K. Jacobson wrote:
> 25 THYRE KLAKKSDOTTIR DANEBOD - SOME SOURCES SAY SHE WAS THE DAUGHTER
> OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that she was the daughter of
> Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
>
I am not happy with the chronology of this solution. I am not convinced
that both marriages were not invented by different authors with
conflicting genealogical/ historical agendas.
taf
Stewart Baldwin
"Gary K. Jacobson" <gar...@millcomm.com> wrote:
>Here is a ahnenlist that deals with the descendancy of Gorm Den Gamle down to Sven
>Estridsen:
I have a number of comments on this chart, which are interspersed at
the appropriate places.
> 1st GENERATION
> 1 SVEND II ESTRIDSEN: b Abt 988 d 29 Apr 1076
> King of Denmark, used his mother's ancestry
> to legitimize his claim to the throne. Sven had
> many bastard children, five of whom were king of
> Denmark at one time or another!
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 2nd GENERATION
> 2 ULF THORGILDSSON b Abt 967 Murdered abt 1026 in Roskilde
> Jarl in England
> 3 ESTRID MARGARET SVENSDATTER b Abt 967 d 9 May ????
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 3rd GENERATION
> 4 THORGILS SPRAKLING b Abt 936
> 5 SIGRID
I don't remember ever seeing a name for the wife of Thorgils. Do you
know what the primary source for her is?
> 6 SVEN "TVESKAEG" or "FORKBEARD" HARALDSEN b Abt 965 d 3 Feb 1014
> GAINSBOROUGH,LINCOLNSHIRE,,ENGLAND
> 7 GUNNHILD SYGRYDA SWIETOSLAVA b Abt 970 POLAND; d Aft 1014
> Some sources claim that he fathered Estrid with Sigrid
> Storraada, but Sigrid's existence is debatable. Many previous
> threads have dealt with that. (Oh, please not again!)
I think that the very lengthy Sigrid threads indicated that there is
no good consensus regarding the identity of Estrid's mother, so that
it would be more appropriate to leave this space blank, [If you
insist on filling this space in, it might be necessary to start
discussing the matter again. ;-) ]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 4th GENERATION
> 8 STYRBJORN STARKE OF SWEDEN OLOFSSON b Abt 959; d 986
> 9 TYRE HARALDSDATTER BLAUZAHN b Bef 1000; d 18 Sep 1000
The parentage of Thorgils has also been dealt with on previous
threads, and there does not seem to be any good evidence for making
him a son of Styrbjorn.
> 12 HARALD VII GORMSSON "BLAATAND" OR "BLUETOOTH" b Abt 910 d 1 Nov 986/987
> JOMSBORG
I discussed the numbering of the Haralds on a posting made yesterday.
I think one would be hard pressed to document even three previous
kings of Denmark named Harald, let alone six!
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 5th GENERATION
> 24 GORM "DEN GAMLE" OR "THE OLD" HARDEKNUDSSON? b Abt 840 d Abt 940
> Jylland, DENMARK. He may have been the son of Hardeknud, son of Sigurd "Snake
> in the Eye, Son of Ragnar Lodbrok, a legemdary Viking Chieftain.
These generations don't hold up under close scrutiny:
1. It is likely that Ragnar Lodbrok never existed.
2. Sigurd is apparently based on the historical king of Denmark named
Sigfrid who was reigning in the year 873, but there is no proof that
he was a brother of any of the other Vikings who came to be regarded
as sons of Ragnar in later legend.
3. Hardeknud appears to have been an obscure Danish king who reigned
at some point in the early tenth century, if we can trust Adam of
Bremen's confusing statements. Adam mentions a Hardegon son of Svend
from Normandy and a Hardeknud Urm as reigning about this time, who may
or may not have been the same person. The later sagas which make
Hardeknud the son of Sigurd (i.e. Sigfrid) contain too much obviously
legendary material to be taken seriously on this point, and are in
direct contradiction to Adam, if Hardegon and Hardeknud are to be
regarded as the same person. The attribution of Hardeknud as the
father of Gorm makes sense onomastically, but is not clearly
documented in any good source. (Saxo's unreliable history makes Gorm
a son of one of the many Haralds.)
> 25 THYRE KLAKKSDOTTIR DANEBOD - SOME SOURCES SAY SHE WAS THE DAUGHTER
> OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that she was the daughter of
> Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
This Klakk Harald is not known to history, and appears only in the
sagas. (The attempts to identify Klakk Harald with the Harald who
ruled Denmark in the early ninth century are chronologically absurd.)
Saxo states that she was the daughter of Aethelred, but his statements
are always to be taken with a grain of alt for this period of Danish
history.
>My main source is "Nachkommen Gorms des Alten" by S. Otto Brenner
Stewart Baldwin
John Yohalem
----------
> From: Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@PO.CWRU.EDU>> Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 4:32 PM
>
> Gary K. Jacobson wrote:
>
> > 25 THYRE KLAKKSDOTTIR DANEBOD - SOME SOURCES SAY SHE WAS THE
DAUGHTER
> > OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that she was
the
> daughter of
> > Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
> >
>
> that both marriages were not invented by different authors with
> conflicting genealogical/ historical agendas.
>
> taf
Well, if Gorm died in 958 aged 50, then Thyra couldn't easily be the
daughter of Ethelred, who died in 871, leaving two infant sons and no other
recorded children. It doesn't make much sense, does it?
I know nothing of Klakk Harald.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
John Yohalem
Two more cents:
> 1. It is likely that Ragnar Lodbrok never existed.
There seem to have been at least two of them.
> 3. Hardeknud appears to have been an obscure Danish king who reigned
> at some point in the early tenth century, if we can trust Adam of
> Bremen's confusing statements. Adam mentions a Hardegon son of Svend
> from Normandy and a Hardeknud Urm as reigning about this time, who may
> or may not have been the same person. The later sagas which make
> Hardeknud the son of Sigurd (i.e. Sigfrid) contain too much obviously
> legendary material to be taken seriously on this point, and are in
> direct contradiction to Adam, if Hardegon and Hardeknud are to be
> regarded as the same person. The attribution of Hardeknud as the
> father of Gorm makes sense onomastically, but is not clearly
> documented in any good source. (Saxo's unreliable history makes Gorm
> a son of one of the many Haralds.)
Since the name was preserved in the family, it seems likely to have been
possessed by an ancestor. Which one and when, of course, are not indicated.
> > 25 THYRE KLAKKSDOTTIR DANEBOD - SOME SOURCES SAY SHE WAS THE
DAUGHTER
> > OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that she was
the daughter
> of
> > Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
>
> This Klakk Harald is not known to history, and appears only in the
> sagas. (The attempts to identify Klakk Harald with the Harald who
> ruled Denmark in the early ninth century are chronologically absurd.)
> Saxo states that she was the daughter of Aethelred, but his statements
> are always to be taken with a grain of alt for this period of Danish
> history.
Chronologically, it makes no sense that she could be a daughter of
Aethelred and still alive ninety years after his (admittedly young) death.
Jean Coeur de Lapin
Stewart Baldwin
John Yohalem <ench...@ESCAPE.COM> wrote:
>Two more cents:
>> 1. It is likely that Ragnar Lodbrok never existed.
>There seem to have been at least two of them.
Are you saying that there were at least two Ragnar Lodbroks, or am I
misreading this statement? I have seen the arguments for one Ragnar
Lodbrok, and the arguments for the nonexistence of a historical Ragnar
Lodbrok (with which I agree), but two of them? Where does this come
from?
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
John Yohalem wrote:
>
> ----------
> > From: Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@PO.CWRU.EDU>
> > To: GEN-ME...@MAIL.EWORLD.COM
> > Subject: Re: Who was Sven Forkbeard, king of Denmark ?
> > Date: Sunday, October 20, 1996 4:32 PM
> >
> > Gary K. Jacobson wrote:
> >
> > > DAUGHTER OF Aethelred I OF ENGLAND. I am of the opinion that
> > > she was the daughter of Klakk Harald, Jarl in Jylland, Denmark.
> > >
>
> daughter of Ethelred, who died in 871, leaving two infant sons and no other
> recorded children. It doesn't make much sense, does it?
>
Yes, quite. I suspect that Ethelred is being used as the name for a
generic English king, or that the author was generating a descent for
Canute to justify his conquest.
> I know nothing of Klakk Harald.
>
He is found in some of the traditional pedigrees associated with the
family of Halfdan of Beowulf fame. He is was typically assigned by
historians evaluating this connection with the Harald who ruled Jutland,
off and on, in the years between the death of Godfreid by 812, and his
expulsion (in the 830 or 840s), when he became a french vassal. This
doesn't exactly provide a more chronologically favorable option.
Unfortunately, the most recent source that I know of addressing this
question (I forget the author, but it was published in the Saga Book of
the Viking Society) concluded that since there were two different
traditions, Gorm must have married two successive wives, each name
Thyra, one daughter of Harold and the other of Ethelred. (in other
words, "d. all of the above.") I suspect that the Ethelred marriage was
invented to provide an English connection to justify the actions of Sven
and Canute, while Harald in order to link this dynasty to the earlier,
legendary danish kings. (in other words, "e. none of the above.")
taf
Ulf Larsson
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>
[snipped a lot, here about Harald "klak"]
This Harald is, in contrast to the other "Klakk Harald",
a historic person, his and his followers were baptized in Mainz in the
presens of the frankish emperor, who became his godfather. Harald is
also
instrumental in the the missionary Ansgars visit to Birka in Sweden
c.930.
> He is found in some of the traditional pedigrees associated with the
> family of Halfdan of Beowulf fame. He is was typically assigned by
> historians evaluating this connection with the Harald who ruled Jutland,
> off and on, in the years between the death of Godfreid by 812, and his
> expulsion (in the 830 or 840s), when he became a french vassal. This
> doesn't exactly provide a more chronologically favorable option.
>
> Unfortunately, the most recent source that I know of addressing this
> question (I forget the author, but it was published in the Saga Book of
> the Viking Society) concluded that since there were two different
> traditions, Gorm must have married two successive wives, each name
> Thyra, one daughter of Harold and the other of Ethelred. (in other
> words, "d. all of the above.") I suspect that the Ethelred marriage was
> invented to provide an English connection to justify the actions of Sven
> and Canute, while Harald in order to link this dynasty to the earlier,
> legendary danish kings. (in other words, "e. none of the above.")
>
> taf
You are right in distrusing this story. It is typical of the way myths
are created. First Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish "pseudo-historian" invents
the connection of Thyra to the Anglo-Saxon kings to motivate Cnut "the
greaths"
claim to England, then somebody finds it inconsistent with other myths
or maybe
historic facts and adds a second marriage (in other cases a unknown
bastard
son e.t.c.)
B.t.w. Saxo, who should be generally mistrusted, also makes "Reginfred",
(Ragnfred in Old East Norse) the co-ruler and rival to Harald klak,
into Ragnar Lodbrok the Danish patriot who fights against the "traitor"
Harald klak. Reginfred could very well be one of the historic persons
behind the Ragnar Lodbrok of the myths, but whatever Saxo tells of
him should be disregarded.(The swedish historian Knut Weibull has shown
that even in events contemporary to Saxo he is not to be trusted.)
Ulf H. Larsson
Ulf Larsson
Sorry, corrections to my posting:
--------------------------------
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>
[snipped a lot, here about Harald "klak"]
This Harald is, in contrast to the other "Klakk Harald",
a historic person, his and his followers were baptized in Mainz
in the presens of the Frankish emperor, who became his godfather.
Harald is also instrumental in the the missionary Ansgars visit to Birka
in Sweden c.930./correction c.830/
=
> He is found in some of the traditional pedigrees associated with
> the family of Halfdan of Beowulf fame. He is was typically
> assigned by historians evaluating this connection with the Harald
> who ruled Jutland, off and on, in the years between the death of
> Godfreid by 812, and his expulsion (in the 830 or 840s), when he
> became a french vassal. This doesn't exactly provide a more
> chronologically favorable option.
> Unfortunately, the most recent source that I know of addressing
> this question (I forget the author, but it was published in the
> Saga Book of the Viking Society) concluded that since there were
> two different traditions, Gorm must have married two successive
> wives, each name Thyra, one daughter of Harold and the other of
> Ethelred. (in other words, "d. all of the above.") I suspect
> that the Ethelred marriage was invented to provide an English
> connection to justify the actions of Sven and Canute, while =
> Harald in order to link this dynasty to the earlier, legendary =
>danish kings. (in other words, "e. none of the above.")
> taf
You are right in distrusing this story. It is typical of the
way myths are created. First Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish
"pseudo-historian" invents the connection of Thyra to the Anglo-Saxon
kings to motivate Cnut "the greaths" claim on England, then somebody
finds it inconsistent with another myths adds a second marriage
(in other cases a unknown bastard son e.t.c.)
B.t.w. Saxo, who should be generally mistrusted, also makes =
"Reginfred" (Ragnfred in Old East Norse), the co-ruler and =
rival to Harald klak, into Ragnar Lodbrok the Danish patriot
who fights against the "traitor" Harald klak. Reginfred could
very well be one of the historic persons behind the Ragnar Lodbrok
of the myths, but whatever Saxo tells of him should be disregarded.
(The swedish historian Knut /correction "Kurt"/ Weibull has shown
that even in events contemporary to Saxo he is not to be trusted.) =
Ulf H. Larsson
-----------------------------------------------------
Ulf H. Larsson
Ericsson Utvecklings AB
Box 1505 Phone: +46 8 727 3314
S-125 25 =C4LVSJ=D6 Fax: +46 8 727 3316
SWEDEN Email: Ulf.L...@uab.ericsson.se