Domesday Descendants vs Round on Alan fitz Flaald
Chris Phillips
I have added a short Addendum by Round, giving some more details of the
family of Jordan, son of Alan fitz Flaald:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/round/stewarts4.shtml
Thanks to Paul Reed for querying, off-list, how Round's 1901 account of the
family of Alan fitz Flaald compared with Keats-Rohan's, in Domesday People.
Keats-Rohan cites Round's paper as, apparently, her main source for the
entry on Alan Fitz Flaad (p.886), and there doesn't seem to be any
indication of errors in it.
Rather, it seems to be a case of errors and omissions in Keats-Rohan's
account:
(1) The entry on Alan mentions only his sons William and Jordan, and omits
Walter, the ancestor of the Stewarts. (The entry does call Alan the ancestor
of the Stewarts, though, and in his own entry (p.860) Walter is described as
the son of Alan and Avelina.)
(2) The statement that Alan died "soon after 1114", citing Burton Cartulary,
p.33, seems odd. Round showed that Eyton's statement that Alan was dead by
1114 relied on a misinterpretation of this entry in the Burton Cartulary,
which in fact had nothing to do with Alan or his family. Round concludes
that Alan "may have lived, and probably did, beyond 1114".
(3) The entry on Alan's son Jordan (p.860) mentions his wife Maria and his
children Alan, Robert and Oliva. Round gives evidence of a son Jordan
(though he does not know of Robert or Oliva). He goes on the give details of
the family of Jordan's son Alan. Alan married Joan, and had a son Jordan,
and daughters Olive (who married first Robert de St John and of Port and
second Roger de Monbegon) and Alice, who married William Spina, son of Hamo.
Round concludes that Olive was Alan's heir in England, and Alice in
Britanny.
Round also mentions that Alan fitz Jordan attests about 1165 a royal charter
"concerning a release by his fellow-countryman Geoffrey son of Oliver de
Dinan". I couldn't help wondering (though Round doesn't suggest it) whether
there's a hint here that Jordan's wife Mary was related to Oliver de Dinan,
as Alan had a daughter Olive, and according to Keats-Rohan Jordan did too.
Chris Phillips
Bob & Kathryn
> (3) The entry on Alan's son Jordan (p.860) mentions his wife Maria and his
> children Alan, Robert and Oliva. Round gives evidence of a son Jordan
> (though he does not know of Robert or Oliva). He goes on the give details
of
> the family of Jordan's son Alan. Alan married Joan, and had a son Jordan,
> and daughters Olive (who married first Robert de St John and of Port and
> second Roger de Monbegon) and Alice, who married William Spina, son of
Hamo.
> Round concludes that Olive was Alan's heir in England, and Alice in
> Britanny.
>
surviced by Agnes Cantelou. Robert's father William de Port [1180 - 1239]
was the first to take the name St. John and I know of no other Robert de St.
Johns. Do you?
Aloha Bob St. John
Douglas Beahm
There was another Robert de St. John who fits this chronology better. He was the
son of Roger de St. John and Cecily de la Haie.
References:
Cokayne's "The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and
the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant", vol. XI (St. John, p. 320),
Note f.
"The Baronage of England", Vol. I, William Dugdale, 1977, p. 464.
Chris Phillips
Bob St John wrote:
> My information is that Robert de St. John [1205 - 1266] Married and was
> surviced by Agnes Cantelou. Robert's father William de Port [1180 - 1239]
> was the first to take the name St. John and I know of no other Robert de
St.
> Johns. Do you?
Sorry - I've made a careless (and nonsensical) error in calling Olive's
husband "de St John and of Port". My eye jumped when copying from what Round
wrote, which was "Olive is there [in Norfolk] found to be identical with
that Olive who was wife (1) of Robert de St. John, of St. Jean-le-Thomas
(see my paper on "The Families of St. John and of Port" in Genealogist
[N.S.], XVI. 45), and (2) of Roger de Monbegon, who gave 500 marcs for her
and her inheritance in 1 John."
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/round/stewarts4.shtml
I don't know whether it's the same man, but Keats-Rohan (Domesday
Descendants, p.691) refers to a Robert de St John, a brother of William de
St John, the son of Roger de St John and Cecily de la Haye.
Chris Phillips