Norman/Angevin queries
Michelle.Mu...@ccmail.team400.ie
1) Who was the wife of William, son of Henry I?
2) Does anyone have details on the children of Robert of Caen, Earl of
Gloucester, and on the children of William Earl of Gloucester, his eldest son? I
know that the earldom went to Hawise/Avisa, daughter of William, who married
first John (later King John) though the marriage was later dissolved. How did
the Earldom of Gloucster pass to the de Clare family?
3) Did Alais, daughter of Louis VII of France and his second wife Constance (of
Castile?) have descendants by her eventual marriage after she was freed from
imprisonment by Richard I? Also, did Marguerite (previously married to Henry
the Young King of England) have children by her second marriage?
4) Who did Philip II's sister by his father's third marriage, marry?
Many thanks,
Michelle Murphy
John Carmi Parsons
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote:
> Just a couple more small queries on the Normans/Angevins
>
> 1) Who was the wife of William, son of Henry I?
He was betrothed to, but drowned before he could marry, a daughter of the
count of Anjou. The marriage had been delayed because of canonical objections
as William and the count were related within the prohibited degrees of
consanguinity.
> 2) Does anyone have details on the children of Robert of Caen, Earl of
> Gloucester, and on the children of William Earl of Gloucester, his eldest son? I
> know that the earldom went to Hawise/Avisa, daughter of William, who married
> first John (later King John) though the marriage was later dissolved. How did
> the Earldom of Gloucster pass to the de Clare family?
The Clares inherited the Gloucester earldom through one of Isabella's (NOT
Hawise's) sisters. I'd have to dig out notes for details on this one.
> 3) Did Alais, daughter of Louis VII of France and his second wife Constance (of
> Castile?) have descendants by her eventual marriage after she was freed from
> imprisonment by Richard I?
Alais was never, to my knowledge, imprisoned. In fact Richard was only too
happy to get rid of her. Her mother was indeed Constance of Castile.
Alais had one daughter by William II of Ponthieu: Marie, later countess of
Ponthieu in her own right, who to judge from two of William's charters was
probably born late in 1197 or (more likely) in 1198. (Alais and William
married in 1195; later in 1196, according to William's charter, they still
had no children but were hoping for issue; and in 1198 Marie appears as
her father's heiress. Again judging from William's charters, Alais died
sometime between July 1218 and March 1221, but I don't think the exact date is
known.
> Also, did Marguerite (previously married to Henry the Young King of England)
have children by her second marriage?
None that are recorded. Her only child by the Young King, William, was born
prematurely in June 1177 and only lived 3 days; one French chronicle says the
birth was premature ("abortivus fuit" to be precise) and possibly a difficult
delivery on that occasion left Margaret unable to bear further children.
> 4) Who did Philip II's sister by his father's third marriage, marry?
Agnes (d. perhaps as late as 1240) married first in March 1180 Alexios II,
Eastern Emperor (d. Sept. 1183), without issue. She m. second, probably
in the year of her first husband's death, his successor Andronikos I
(overthrown and murdered in Sept 1185), again w/o issue. She m. 3rd, in
1204 or 1205, Theodoros Briennios (the surname is sometimes rendered
"Vranas" and "Branas"), a Greek noble from Adrianople, by whom she had one
daughter, name unknown. This daughter married Narjot/Nargeaud de Toucy,
lord of la Terza in the Levant (d. 1240) and left issue. The male line
died out with Narjot's great-grandson Philippe of la Terza in 1300/01;
there may be descendants in the female line, as the original Narjot and
his Vranas wife had a daughter Margaret, wife of Leonardo da Veroli,
Chancellor of the despot of Morea.
John Parsons
Dcrdcr4
Robert Fitz Roy, died 1147, Earl of Gloucester,it appears that the Earl William
in question referred to one of the Bohuns as his cousin. Can anyone explain to
me how Earl William was related to the Bohun family? It doesn't seem to come
through his mother. As such, my guess is that the kinship comes through
Robert Fitz Roy's unidenfitied mother who was a mistress of King Henry I of
England. Likewise, I have learned that both Earl Robert and Earl William were
related to a certain Thomas nepos Comitis (i.e., Thomas, nephew or grandson of
the Earl). Thomas' father was Richard de Grenville. Can anyone explain the
Grenville connection? Thomas appears to be have been too old to be a grandson
of Earl Robert, so I presume he was a nephew. Thomas is ancestor of the
Grenville family which in turn is ancestral to the Stafford family of Hooke,
Dorset. These people are found in the ancestry of many immigrants, including
Olive Welby.
Anyone care to comment? By the way, I'm still waiting for someone to comment
on why I think Geoffrey Fitz Peter, Earl of Essex, is related to the Lords
Maltravers.
All for now. Douglas Richardson
Suzanne Doig
Michelle.Murphy%EIH...@ccmail.team400.ie wrote:
>Just a couple more small queries on the Normans/Angevins
>
>2) Does anyone have details on the children of Robert of Caen, Earl of
>Gloucester, and on the children of William Earl of Gloucester, his eldest son? I
>know that the earldom went to Hawise/Avisa, daughter of William, who married
>first John (later King John) though the marriage was later dissolved. How did
>the Earldom of Gloucster pass to the de Clare family?
1. Robert of Caen born ABT 1090, Caen, Normandy, married (1)
1107, Mabel FITZHAMON, (daughter of Robert FITZHAMON and Sibyl de
MONTGOMERY) died 1157. Robert died 31 Oct 1147, Bristol, England,
buried Priory of St. James, Bristol, England, Earl of Gloucester.
Children by Mabel FITZHAMON:
2. i William FITZROBERT born 23 Nov 1110/1112.
ii Roger FITZROBERT, Bishop of Worcester; died 1179,
Tours, France, buried Tours, France.
iii Hamon FITZROBERT died 1159.
iv Philip FITZROBERT born ABT 1115, died AFT 1147.
v Richard FITZROBERT, Lord of Creully; died 1175.
vi Maud FITZROBERT born ABT 1120, married ABT 1141,
Ranulf de Gernons, Earl of Chester, born BEF 1100, (son of Ranulph le
Meschin and Lucy) died 16 Dec 1153. Maud died 29 Jul 1189.
vii Mabel FITZROBERT married Aubrey de VERE.
Illegitimate Children:
viii Richard FITZROBERT died 1142, Bishop of Bayeux
1135-1142.
ix Robert FITZROBERT died AFT 1160, Castellan of
Gloucester [possibly legitimate].
Second Generation
2. William FITZROBERT born 23 Nov 1110 or 23 Nov 1112, married
ABT 1150, Hawise de BEAUMONT, born ABT 1134, (daughter of Robert
‘Bossu’ de BEAUMONT and Amice de GAEL) died 24 Apr 1197. William died
23 Nov 1183, buried Keynsham Abbey, Somerset, England, 2nd Earl of
Gloucester.
Children:
i Robert of Gloucester born BEF 1155, Cardiff, Wales,
died 1166, Cardiff, Wales.
3. ii Mabel of Gloucester.
4. iii Amicia of Gloucester born 1160.
iv Isabella, Countess of Gloucester, born BEF 1176,
married (1) 29 August 1189, in Marlborough Castle, Wiltshire, England,
John ‘Lackland’, King of England 1199-1216, born 24 Dec 1166, Beaumont
Palace, Oxford, England, (son of Henry II ‘Curtmantle’ and Eleanor of
Aquitaine) died 19 Oct 1216, Newark Castle, England, buried Worcester
Cathedral, England, married (2) 16/26 Jan 1214, Geoffrey de
MANDEVILLE, 5th Earl of Essex, (son of Geoffrey fitz Piers and
Beatrice de SAY) died 23 Feb 1216, killed in a tournament, London,
married (3) Sep/Oct 1217, Hubert de BURGH, 1st Earl of Kent, born
1175, (son of Walter? and Alice) died 12 May 1243, buried Church Black
Friars, Holborn, London. Isabella died 14 Oct 1217, buried Canterbury
Cathedral, Kent, England.
[died childless]
Third Generation
5. Mabel of Gloucester married ABT 1170/1171, Amaury de MONTFORD,
(son of Simon III de MONTFORD and Maud) died 1191, Count of Evreux.
Mabel died 1188/1198.
Children:
i Amaury de MONTFORT, Earl of Gloucester, married (1)
BEF 1198, Agnes d'AMBOISE, married (2) by 1203, Melisende de GOURNAY.
Amaury died BEF __ Nov 1213, buried Keynsham Abbey, Somerset, England.
[died childless]
6. Amicia, Countess of Gloucester, born 1160, married ABT 1180,
divorced BEF 1200, Richard DE CLARE, 3rd Earl of Hertford, 6th Earl of
Clare, born ABT 1153, (son of Roger DE CLARE and Maud de ST HILAIRE)
died 30 Dec 1218. Amicia died 1 Jan 1225.
Children:
i Gilbert DE CLARE, 4th Earl of Hertford, Clare &
Gloucester , born 1180/1182, Hertford, Hertfordshire, England, married
9 Oct 1217, in Tewkesbury Abbey, Gloucesters., England, Isabella
MARSHAL, born 9 Oct 1200, Pembroke Castle, Wales, (daughter of William
MARSHAL and Isabel DE CLARE) died 17 Jan 1240, Berkhamstead Castle,
Herts, England, buried Beaulieu Abbey, Hampshire, England. Gilbert
died 25 Oct 1230, Penros, Brittany, buried Tewkesbury Abbey,
Gloucestershire, England.
ii Richard DE CLARE died 1228, dsp.
iii Matilda DE CLARE married (1) William de BRAOSE, born
ABT 1175, Bramber, Sussex, England, (son of William de BRAOSE and Maud
de ST VALERIE) died 1210, Corfe or Windsor Castle, England, buried
Sele Priory, Bramber, Sussex, England, married (2) 1219, Rhys Grygg,
(son of Rhys ap Gruffydd and Gwenllian ferch Madoc) died 1233.
Suzanne
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Suzanne Doig - remove obvious from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4038/index.html
Links4two
query on Robert of Caen and his children. I have seen the name of Robert's
wife listed as Mabel Fitz Hamon, Maud Fitz Hamon and Amabel Fitz Hamon. Does
anyone know which is correct?
Also, does this Fitz Hamon family have any connection to the Hamon or
Hammond brothers who supposedly migrated from Normandy to Ireland?
Thank you very much.
Susan Hammond
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Regarding your question about William, Earl of Gloucester, the son and heir of
> Robert Fitz Roy, died 1147, Earl of Gloucester,it appears that the Earl William
> in question referred to one of the Bohuns as his cousin. Can anyone explain to
> me how Earl William was related to the Bohun family?
I can't provide anything concrete, but I recall that Humphrey de Bohun
(I) is called a kinsman of William the Conqueror in some sources.
taf
Dcrdcr4
I've never seen the first Humphrey de Bohun called kinsman to William the
Conqueror. Do you recall where you saw that? Actually not much is not of the
first Humphrey. I know he had estates in both France and England. If so, I
suspect he may well have lived in France most of the time, rather than in
England. My guess is that Earl William is related to the Bohun family
through his father, Earl Robert's mother whose identity is unknown.
All for now. DR