Estout d'Estouteville conflation... cleared up or still open?

[Darrell E. Larocque]

The Estout d'Estouteville I am currently investigating is from the de Torcy branch, the husband of Mathilde and Alix de Meulan, the father of Jean d'Estouteville, Seigneur de Torcy, who married Jeanne de Fiennes. There appears to be a conflation between him and another Estout, son of Jean d'Estouteville and Agnes de Châteaudun. That Estout had two children, Nicholas and Jean.

Morandière strongly urges that the documents were read in error and Estout is the son of Jean and Agnes, but Cawley presents documents to discount his rationale, which is below:

"ESTOUT d’Estouteville (-before 20 Jul 1308). “Johannes de Estotevilla miles dominus de Boscheto et Agnes uxor mea” renounced rights over the priory of Lancé in favour of Marmoutier, with the consent of “Robertus primogenitus noster, Radulphus et Astulphus filii mei”, by charter dated Mar 1249 (O.S.?)[443]. Morandière quotes a charter dated Jun 1272 under which "Agnes [d’Estouteville] au temps de mon veuvage" donated property to Valmont, with the consent of "domini Roberti, domini Willelmi, et domini Estoldi, et Magistri Johannis de Estoutevilla canonici Rothomagensis, filiorum meorum" (no source citation)[444]. A writ dated 11 Apr 1324 and an inquisition at Nottingham records that “John de Stoutevill, grandfather of the last John de Stoutevill, whose heir is under age and in the king’s wardship” alienated various [unspecified] manors “to Stute his son...in the year 36 Henry III” [1250], noting that “the father of the heir was seised of the services of Nicholas de Stoutevill, son and heir of the said Stute”[445]. Inquisitions following a writ dated “20 Jul 2 Edw II”, after the death of “Stoutus alias Stutus de Stutevill...an alien”, record “Nicholas his son is his next heir” and includes manors Bradon and Brademere (Notts) “held of Eleanor late the wife of Robert de Stotevill”[446]. m ---. The name of Estout’s wife is not known.

[443] Marmoutier (Blésois), Tome I, CCLXIX, p. 246, and Marmoutier-Vendômois (1893), LXXI, p. 390.
[444] Morandière (1903), p. 100.
[445] Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous, Vol. II, 754, p. 188.
[446] Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. V, 77, 77, p. 39.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#JeanEstoutevillediedafter1262

Leo has Estout connected to Jean by using ES, but in the Notes he says that "According to _Le Grand dictionnaire historique ou le Mélange curieux de l'histoire, sacrée et profane.._ of Louis Moréri (1759), he was the second son of Robert IV's son Robert d'Estouteville, seigneur de Cleuville, and Alix Bertrand de Bricquebec, dame de Baigneville. Before 1302 Estout married Alix de Meulan, daughter of Amaury de Meulan, seigneur de la Queue, and Marguerite de Neufbourg. They had four sons and a daughter, of whom Jean is recorded with progeny."

Cawley presents his research on my Estout as follows:

"ESTOUT d’Estouteville, son of --- (-after 1316). Seigneur de Torcy. Estout d’Estouteville and “Maheut dame de Torchy fame et compaigne du dit mon seigneur Estout” agreed with the priory of Longueville about land held by a vassal by charter dated 4 Nov 1296[673]. Père Anselme says that Estout was recorded “avec son frère aîné” (unclear to whom Anselme refers, considering the confusion in his reconstruction of the Estouteville family) in “deux arrêts de l’Echiquier des années 1302 et 1303”[674]. Morandière records that he was named in a register of the archbishopric of Rouen dated 1316[675].

m [firstly] (before 4 Nov 1296) MATHILDE, daughter of ---. Estout and “Maheut dame de Torchy fame et compaigne du dit mon seigneur Estout” agreed with the priory of Longueville about land held by a vassal by charter dated 4 Nov 1296[676]. It is unclear whether Mathilde was named “dame de Torchy” because she was married to Estout or because she brought Torcy to her husband on their marriage.

[m [secondly?] (after 1296) ALIX de Meulan, daughter of [AMAURY [IV] de Meulan Seigneur de la Queue-en-Brie & his wife ---] (-after 1327). Père Anselme records her marriage, saying that Alix was the daughter of Amaury [III] de Meulan and his wife Marguerite de Neufbourg[677]. That suggestion would be consistent with her husband being the son of Jean [I] d’Estouteville which, as indicated above, appears to be incorrect. If the wife of Estout d’Estouteville was a member of the Meulan family, the chronology suggests that she would have been the daughter of Amaury [IV]. The 4 Nov 1296 source cited above, naming Estout’s wife Mathilde, indicates that Alix would have been Estout’s second wife. No primary source has been found which confirms Alix’s family origin and marriage. It should be noted that Anselme’s reconstruction of the Estouteville family is unreliable, while in addition there is considerable uncertainty about the reconstruction of the Meulan family. Until more information comes to light, it is suggested that Alix should be treated with caution. Morandière records that Alix was still living in 1327 (no source cited)[678]."

[673] “J-C de Vaugiraud (B. Paris d’aprés AD-76, cartulaire de Longueville, série 24 HP 75) 16 ii 2013”. Information sent by Bert M. Kamp by email 18 Feb 2021. This charter is quoted on many internet genealogy sites but it is unclear who originally located it.
[674] Père Anselme, Tome VIII, p. 96.
[675] Morandière (1903), p. 114, no citation references.
[676] “J-C de Vaugiraud (B. Paris d’aprés AD-76, cartulaire de Longueville, série 24 HP 75) 16 ii 2013”. Information sent by Bert M. Kamp by email 18 Feb 2021.
[677] Père Anselme, Tome VIII, p. 96.
[678] Morandière (1903), p. 114, no citation references

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#_Toc108863564

Based upon the material presented, Estout d'Estouteville should be the son of Robert V d'Estouteville by one of his wives:

"The primary source which confirms the parentage of Estout d’Estouteville Seigneur de Torcy has not been identified. Morandière identifies him as the son of Jean [I] Seigneur d’Estouteville, but the sources cited above show Jean’s son Estout with a different family. Père Anselme says that he was the son of Robert [VI] d’Estouteville & his wife Alice Bertrand[672], which if correct would place his birth in the late 1280s/1290s which seems incompatible with his mention with his wife in 1296. The possibility which fits the chronology best is that he was an unrecorded younger son of Robert [V] Seigneur d’Estouteville by his first wife Jeanne."

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/normacre.htm#_Toc108863564

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

A new source which identifies Henri in 1205 and later Colart d'Estouteville in 1377:

Henry d'Estouteville. 1205. The seal is a rampant lion bypassed on a burly: f SIG HENRICI DE ETTOTE-
VILLA

In 1377, a receipt of pledges was given by Colart naming him "chevalier, seigneur de Torcy, capitaine d'Arques" with a seal that had a leaning shield, quartered, at one and four, burelé with a debruising lion representing d'Estouteville, and at two and three a cross with twenty crosses recrossed, representing Mauquenchy, stamped with a face helm crowned on an old man's head supported by two crouching lions.
Victor Leblond. ''Notes pour le nobiliaire du Beauvaisis, d'après un manuscrit inédit du XVIIe siècle et autres documents originaux. Partie 3'', (Paris: E. Chmpion, 1913), p. 904.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5410619d/f95.item

We know it is the correct Colart because he married Blanche de Mauquenchy in 1372 according to Anselme.

[Peter Howarth]

The book by Victor Leblond, /Notes pour le nobiliaire du Beauvaisis : d'après un manuscrit inédit du XVIIe siècle et autres documents originaux/, was not new even when it was first published in three volumes between 1910 and 1913, since it is a collection of snippets from earlier works. And your translation software unfortunately cannot cope with heraldic blazon.

The first of the two items that you quote comes from the magisterial work by Louis-Claude Douët d’Arcq, /Collection de sceaux: inventaires et documents publiés par ordre de l’Empereur sous la direction de M. le comte de Laborde/, 1863-68, being a three-volume catalogue of seals in the national collection in Paris. Entry 2114 is for an armorial seal (i.e. one where the principal device is a shield of arms) for Henri d'Estouteville, with the arms 'Barruly, a lion rampant to sinister' (on a background of multiple horizontal stripes, an upright lion turned to face the viewer's right). The seal was one of many attached by Norman nobles in 1205 to a letter to the Pope about lay patronage.

The second item is from Joseph Roman, /Inventaire des sceaux de la collection des pièces originales du cabinet des titres à la Bibliothèque nationale/, 1909, number 4303 for Colart d’Estouteville. Another armorial seal, it has a shield, tilted to the left, with quartered arms: 1 and 4, barruly, a lion*, 2 and 3, a cross between twenty crossed crosslets; crest: on a front-facing helm a coronet and an old man’s head; supporters: two lions sejant (sitting). The seal was apparently used in 1377. Roman attributes the second coat of arms to Mauquenchy. In the Wijnbergen Roll (c.1270), WN 413, these arms are given to ‘Jehan Mouton de Blaiuile’, and in the Urfé Roll (c.1381), Ur 1231, to ‘Le seigneur de Blanville’. The quartered arms represent a claimed descent from two families, but may not be taken as gospel. Mistakes, whether deliberate or inadvertent, occurred often enough.

It should also be noted that Leblond does not claim any connection, apart from the similarity of surname, between the two entries. Altogether, this means that there could well be the connections you want, but the entries in Leblond are not enough. There needs to be further evidence before you can be sure.

* 'a lion', in such catalogues, usually means a lion rampant facing to the viewer's left.

Peter Howarth

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Peter,

I didn't get a chance to review where Leblond himself got them from, only gathering the information initially to try and make sense of it and you have done that in a very comprehensive way and I very much appreciate that. The translation of the original French is not perfect by any means, but it gives me an idea at least for a beginning. I was trying to gauge whether or not there is some connection which could connect dots between de Torcy males, but if the armorials are common then it seems like it is a dead end. Colart's connection to Mauquenchy wasn't in doubt, only something to add to his record at this point. I just need to get to Robert IV from Estout who naturally goes to Colart, which was the goal of my OP to clarify if it has been decided or not.

Darrell

[Peter Howarth]

At the bottom of the next page of Leblond (p. 905), there is mention of the three sons of Guillaume d'Estouteville, seigneur of Torcy and Blainville, the latter possession being associated with the arms given in the Wijnbergen and Urfé Rolls. The sons, Robert, Jean and Estout, were apparently involved in the defence of Beauvais during the siege of 1472. This would probably place Guillaume at some time around the middle of the fifteenth century. The information was taken from Pierre César Renet, /Beauvais et le Beauvaisis dans les temps modernes/, originally published in 1898 and now available in a reprint of 1977, p. 160 (a). Unfortunately, I don't have access to either version.

Peter Howarth

[Darrell E. Larocque]

Peter,

I have access to the copy from 1898 on HathiTrust here in the USA, so here is the passage:

"Robert d'Estouteville avait enfin été autorisé à venir prendre part à la défense de Beauvais. M. de Torcy, qui amenait les nobles de Normandie était Jean d'Es- touteville, frère de Robert et seigneur de Torcy, Blainville, etc. (p. 24). Un autre frère de Robert, Estout d'Estouteville, seigneur de Beaumont-le-Charlet, etc., également con- seiller et chambellan du Roi, était châtelain de Beau- vais, depuis 1438. Il avait aussi combattu pour la con- quête de la Normandie. Nulle part le lion d’Estouteville ne sommeillait (AS; S. A, XIII). Les trois frères étaient les fils de Guillaume d'Estou- teville, seigneur de Torcy-Blainville, avec lequel Estout et Jean combattaient à Formigny. C'étaient les petits cousins de Thomas d'Estouteville, ancien évêque de Beauvais, qui avait rendu de grands services à l'Etat, en même temps qu'à l'Eglise. Ils étaient également les parents de Guillaume d'Estouteville, archevêque de Rouen, cardinal doyen du Sacré-Collège, légat du Pape, réformateur de l'Université (1483)."

"Robert d'Estouteville had finally been authorized to come and take part in the defense of Beauvais. M. de Torcy, who brought the nobles from Normandy, was Jean d'Estouteville, brother of Robert and lord of Torcy, Blainville, &c. (p. 24). Another brother of Robert, Estout d'Estouteville, lord of Beaumont-le-Charlet, etc., also councilor and chamberlain to the King, had been castellan of Beauvais since 1438. He had also fought for the conquest of from Normandy. Nowhere was the Estouteville lion slumbering (AS; S. A, XIII). The three brothers were the sons of Guillaume d'Estouteville, lord of Torcy-Blainville, with whom Estout and Jean fought at Formigny. They were the little cousins of Thomas d'Estouteville, former bishop of Beauvais, who had rendered great services to the State, as well as to the Church. They were also the parents of Guillaume d'Estouteville, archbishop of Rouen, cardinal dean of the Sacred College, papal legate, reformer of the University (1483)."

So there is the full passage thanks to your assistance!

Darrell

[Darrell E. Larocque]

For reference, the above sons of Guillaume d'Estouteville and Jeanne de Doudeauville, Jean (-1494), Estout (-1476) and Robert (-1479), are mentioned in the above passage. Jean was eldest and the Seigneur de Torcy because he outlived his other brothers.

PEDIGREE (as currently constructed):
Robert d'Estouteville/Alix Bertrand
Estout d'Estouteville/Alix de Meulan (parentage must be clarified, hence this post)
Jean d'Estouteville/Jeanne de Fiennes (not 100%)
Colart d'Estouteville/Blanche de Mauquenchy
Guilllaume d'Estouteville/Jeanne de Doudeauville
Sons referenced above.

Darrell

[Peter Howarth]

Many thanks for finding the passage from Renet. Two minor points of translation: I would prefer 'cousin's son' for 'petit cousin', and 'kinsmen' for 'parents'. (The two brothers could hardly both be parents of Guillaume the archbishop.) On the other hand, I don't claim to be a French expert. I have to work with several languages and I too use Google Translate from time to time. But I find that Artificial Intelligence rather often produces artificial answers!

Peter Howarth