The Other Heir of Magister Roger de Arundel
John Watson
In a post to SGM of 17 April 2003, titled "Magister Roger de Arundel
and the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts." John Ravilious posted this
excerpt from the Fine Rolls of Henry III:
'50 HEN. III. A.D. 1221
Ebor. } Rex Vic Ebor salt. Si WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG' t JOH's de
BEAUVER copticipes THOME de HOTHU NICH'I de ANESTI t THOME de BIRKIN
de tris q funt MAG'RI ROG'I de ARUNDELL' fecint te secur de reddendo
nob q*ntu ad eos ptinet de debito qd ide Magr Rogus cuj hedes ipi sut
nob debuit ita qd respodeat in nob ad sccm Sci Mich anno r. n. v*. de
tio Sci Johis Bapt pximo ptito t de eod tio Sci Mich t sic deinceps ad
alios tminos q pdcis Thome de Hothu Nicho de Anesti t Thome de Birkin
costituti sut ad sccm ni*m: tuc su diloe plena saisina hre facias
pdcis Willo t Johi de ptibus suis q eos contigut de pdcis tris in
bailla tua de quib* dissaisiti funt occoe pdci debiti.T. H. tc. ap
Ebor xix. die Jun.'
19 June 1221, The King, by writ dated at York, directed the Sheriff to
give to William Constable of Flemeburg and John de Beuver, coparcenors
with Thomas de Hothum, Nicholas de Anesti and Thomas de Birkin, full
seisin of the lands that had been Master Roger Arundell's on their
giving him security for the payment proportionately of the debts still
owing to us of Master Roger Arundell whose heirs they are, etc.
In follow ups and subsequent posts, the descents of the heirs of
Master Roger Arundel were all traced, that is, all except one - John
de Beuver.
So how was John de Beuver an heir of Roger Arundel?
He was one of the heirs of Roger through his mother Maud as can be
inferred from these two documents found on the A2A site:
Quitclaim: John de Belvero to William the Constable property all
woods, marshes, moors and wastes in Holm which fell to W's. share on a
division between him and Matilda, J's. mother (as DDCC/135/2/p55/2).
[PRO: East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
Chichester-Constable Family DDCC/135/2/p63/2]
Gift: Same parties (as DDCC/135/2/p63/2) property All J's share of
land and rents in Naferton, of the lands of Master Roger Arundel. In
exchange for ½ carucate and 1/8 bovate in Foscton; 1 bovate and 1½
tofts in Alebrun (Auburn); and 10s. 3d. rent in Scouerbure
(Scarborough) (part of the lands and rents of Master R.A.); bovate and
toft in Annele (being a moiety of a bovate and the toft sometime held
by Alan son of Gilbert); and the other moiety of a bovate lying in
J's. demesne to the N. ("longior a sole"). Witn. William son of Peter,
Oliver de Gunneby, Roger Agwelun. [PRO: East Riding of Yorkshire
Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family DDCC/135/2/
p64/1]
How he and William Constable of Flamborough were both heirs of Roger
de Arundel can be explained by the following hypothesis (which I'm
sure someone will shoot full of holes):
Roger de Arundel had three sisters, who were his heirs:
1. Agnes de Arundel who married Robert de Hothum and whose heir was
Thomas de Hothum,
2. Cecily de Arundel who married Jordan L'enveise and whose heirs were
Thomas de Birkin and Nicholas de Anesti,
3. Maud de Arundel who married unknown and whose heirs were William
Constable of Flamborough and John de Beuver .
Maud de Arundel had two daughters by her unknown husband:
1. Alice
2. Eufemia, who married William Tison, son of Adam Tison of Holme on
Spaldingmoor. (William Tison also had another wife named Alice.) By
Eufemia, William had at least two daughters:
a) name unknown, who married Robert le Constable of Flamborough,
father of William Constable
b) Maud Tison who married Robert de Beuver, father of John de Beuver
John de Beuver and William Constable were first cousins.
I realise that his goes against the perceived wisdom that Eufemia
married Robert Constable of Flamborough, but it does explain how John
de Beuver was also one of the heirs of Roger Arundel.
Regards
John
mj...@btinternet.com
Interesting! To put a little more flesh on this, Keats-Rohan (as you
probably know; is this one of your sources?) says in Domesday
Descendants that William the son of Adam Tison died 1180, having
married an Alice (citing Clay, Early Yorkshire CHarters, 1955, XII, no
45), "leaving four daughters by his wife Alice (sic), viz [i] the wife
of Robert I the Constable of Flamborough (sic, i.e. unnamed); [ii]
Constance, wife of Ralph de Beauver; [iii] Matilda, wife first of
Robert de Beauver and secondly of William of Weighton, and [iv] Agnes
(dsp before 1185), wife of Hugh Fitz Malger of Steeton (citing EYC, X,
pp 14 ff, and XII, p 5).
Furthermore, sub de Belveir, she states that Radulf de Belveir,
steward of Roger de Mowbray, and his brother Robert held small fees of
the Tisons by marriages to two of the four daughters and coheires of
William Tison; Ralph and Constance his wife were benefactors of St
Clements York (EYC, IX, 182) - no issue is mentioned for them.
The pedigree that Rosie Bevan kindly posted in 2003 was taken from EYC
X to XII appears to leave us with three mutually exlusive
reconstructions, i.e.
(1) your suggestion:
Robert le Constable married the unnamed daughter of William Tison and
Euphemia, daughter of Maud de Arundel and NN
(2) Rosie's post based on EYC:
Robert le Constable married Euphemia the daughter of Maud (sister of
Roger de Arundel) and her unnamed husband
(3) version based on DD:
Robert le Constable married the unnamed daughter of William Tison and
Alice
Version (2) at least provides a name for Robert le Constable's unnamed
wife. I don't think the problem is assigning the name Euphemia to
Robert le Constable's wife, it's trying to work out whose daughter she
was.
Might not the easiest likely solution be found in considering whether
William Tison's known wife Alice was the daughter of that name of Maud
de Arundel, per Rosie's post (i.e. Euphemia the wife of Robert le
Constable was daughter rather than sister to that Alice)? Are you in
a position to check the relevant volumes of EYC on this?
Regards, Michael
John Watson
Dear Michael,
I have no access to the sources you named at the present time. My
suggestion was based on an article that A. S. Ellis wrote in
Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society over 100 years ago
(sorry no reference) concerning the early pedigree of the Constables
of Flamborough. I had copied the relevant pages a long time ago, but
just recently got round to sorting out the information. Then I read
the older posts in SGM and wondered why no one had mentioned John de
Beauver as one of Roger's heirs. For completeness, I thought that he
should also be included, although I admit that it's difficult to fit
him in.
I agree that the neatest solution would be if Alice, the wife of
William Tison was Alice, the daughter of Maud de Arundel, but that's
not what Mr Ellis wrote.
In Ellis's pedigree, which is very vague in places, based on a
document of Dodsworth's, he has Euphemia firstly (or secondly?)
marrying an unnamed Tison, then a Robert Talebot. Her unnamed daughter
by Tison marries an unnamed Constable. He also shows Alice marrying
Nicholas de Anesti - but I wasn't very sure about that.
The evidence should be there somewhere, since Ellis mentions that
court cases concerning the lands of Roger de Arundel carried on for
about a hundred years.
Regards,
John
mj...@btinternet.com
Many thanks for the clarification, John. It seems you are right in
stating that John de Beauver was the first cousin of William
Constable, and your query has revealed an apparent discrepancy between
the statements in 'Domesday Descendants' and the material in Clay's
'Early Yorkshire Charters', thus calling into question the previously
accepted version of the pedigree showing how William Constable was a
coheir of Roger de Arundel. I will try to get to the British Library
during the week to have a further look at EYC.
Regards, Michael
Thomas Benjamin Hertzel
Can anyone tell me if these two lines are correct:
1.
Halfdan "White Leg" >
Eystein >
Harold, King of Haithabu >
Halfdan, King of Haithabu
Moriarity (170) gives the first two lines of this descent. ES (II 104)
starts with #3, but without parents. Moriarity shows a sister Geva to
Halfdan (#3). ES also gives a sister Geva to Harold, but again, without
linking them to the earlier generations.
2.
Halfdan "White Leg" >
Gudröd, King of Vestfold >
Olaf II, King of Jutland >
Ragenwald >
Aseda, married Eystein Glumra >
Ragenwald "the Wise"
I know I'm on shakier ground here. Again, Moriarity 170 gives the first two
in this descent, and ES only confirms that Ragenwald (#6) was the son of
Eystein Glumra, but not of Aseda of this descent. The intervening
generations come from Turton and Royalty for Commoners... Is there a more
reliable source that can confirm or refute this?
Thank you
Thomas Hertzel
Rosie Bevan
> On 27 Mai, 11:02, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 27, 4:15 pm, m...@btinternet.com wrote:
>
> > > On 27 Mai, 07:49, John Watson <WatsonJo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Dear all,
>
> > > > and the Birkins of Laxton, co. Notts." John Ravilious posted this
> > > > excerpt from the Fine Rolls of Henry III:
>
> > > > '50 HEN. III. A.D. 1221
> > > > Ebor. } Rex Vic Ebor salt. Si WILL's COSTAB' de FLEMBURG' t JOH's de
> > > > BEAUVER copticipes THOME de HOTHU NICH'I de ANESTI t THOME de BIRKIN
> > > > de tris q funt MAG'RI ROG'I de ARUNDELL' fecint te secur de reddendo
> > > > nob q*ntu ad eos ptinet de debito qd ide Magr Rogus cuj hedes ipi sut
> > > > nob debuit ita qd respodeat in nob ad sccm Sci Mich anno r. n. v*. de
> > > > tio Sci Johis Bapt pximo ptito t de eod tio Sci Mich t sic deinceps ad
> > > > alios tminos q pdcis Thome de Hothu Nicho de Anesti t Thome de Birkin
> > > > costituti sut ad sccm ni*m: tuc su diloe plena saisina hre facias
> > > > pdcis Willo t Johi de ptibus suis q eos contigut de pdcis tris in
> > > > bailla tua de quib* dissaisiti funt occoe pdci debiti.T. H. tc. ap
> > > > Ebor xix. die Jun.'
>
> > > > 19 June 1221, The King, by writ dated at York, directed the Sheriff to
> > > > give to William Constable of Flemeburg and John de Beuver, coparcenors
> > > > with Thomas de Hothum, Nicholas de Anesti and Thomas de Birkin, full
> > > > seisin of the lands that had been Master Roger Arundell's on their
> > > > giving him security for the payment proportionately of the debts still
> > > > owing to us of Master Roger Arundell whose heirs they are, etc.
>
> > > > In follow ups and subsequent posts, the descents of the heirs of
> > > > de Beuver.
>
> > > > So how was John de Beuver an heir of RogerArundel?
>
> > > > He was one of the heirs of Roger through his mother Maud as can be
> > > > inferred from these two documents found on the A2A site:
>
> > > > Quitclaim: John de Belvero to William the Constable property all
> > > > woods, marshes, moors and wastes in Holm which fell to W's. share on a
> > > > division between him and Matilda, J's. mother (as DDCC/135/2/p55/2).
> > > > [PRO: East Riding of Yorkshire Archives and Records Service:
> > > > Chichester-Constable Family DDCC/135/2/p63/2]
>
> > > > Gift: Same parties (as DDCC/135/2/p63/2) property All J's share of
> > > > exchange for ½ carucate and 1/8 bovate in Foscton; 1 bovate and 1½
> > > > tofts in Alebrun (Auburn); and 10s. 3d. rent in Scouerbure
> > > > (Scarborough) (part of the lands and rents of Master R.A.); bovate and
> > > > toft in Annele (being a moiety of a bovate and the toft sometime held
> > > > by Alan son of Gilbert); and the other moiety of a bovate lying in
> > > > J's. demesne to the N. ("longior a sole"). Witn. William son of Peter,
> > > > Oliver de Gunneby, Roger Agwelun. [PRO: East Riding of Yorkshire
> > > > Archives and Records Service: Chichester-Constable Family DDCC/135/2/
> > > > p64/1]
>
> > > > How he and William Constable of Flamborough were both heirs of Roger
> > > > sure someone will shoot full of holes):
>
>
> > > > 1. Agnes deArundelwho married Robert de Hothum and whose heir was
> > > > Thomas de Hothum,
>
> > > > 2. Cecily deArundelwho married Jordan L'enveise and whose heirs were
> > > > Thomas de Birkin and Nicholas de Anesti,
>
> > > > Constable of Flamborough and John de Beuver .
>
>
> > > (2) Rosie's post based on EYC:
>
> > > Robert le Constable married Euphemia the daughter of Maud (sister of
>
> > > (3) version based on DD:
>
> > > Robert le Constable married the unnamed daughter of William Tison and
> > > Alice
>
> > > Version (2) at least provides a name for Robert le Constable's unnamed
> > > wife. I don't think the problem is assigning the name Euphemia to
> > > Robert le Constable's wife, it's trying to work out whose daughter she
> > > was.
>
> > > Might not the easiest likely solution be found in considering whether
> > > William Tison's known wife Alice was the daughter of that name of Maud
> > > Constable was daughter rather than sister to that Alice)? Are you in
> > > a position to check the relevant volumes of EYC on this?
>
> > > Regards, Michael
>
> > Dear Michael,
>
> > I have no access to the sources you named at the present time. My
> > suggestion was based on an article that A. S. Ellis wrote in
> > Transactions of the East Riding Antiquarian Society over 100 years ago
> > (sorry no reference) concerning the early pedigree of the Constables
> > of Flamborough. I had copied the relevant pages a long time ago, but
> > just recently got round to sorting out the information. Then I read
> > the older posts in SGM and wondered why no one had mentioned John de
> > Beauver as one of Roger's heirs. For completeness, I thought that he
> > should also be included, although I admit that it's difficult to fit
> > him in.
>
> > I agree that the neatest solution would be if Alice, the wife of
> > not what Mr Ellis wrote.
>
> > In Ellis's pedigree, which is very vague in places, based on a
> > document of Dodsworth's, he has Euphemia firstly (or secondly?)
> > marrying an unnamed Tison, then a Robert Talebot. Her unnamed daughter
> > by Tison marries an unnamed Constable. He also shows Alice marrying
> > Nicholas de Anesti - but I wasn't very sure about that.
>
> > The evidence should be there somewhere, since Ellis mentions that
> > about a hundred years.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > John
>
> Many thanks for the clarification, John. It seems you are right in
> stating that John de Beauver was the first cousin of William
> Constable, and your query has revealed an apparent discrepancy between
> the statements in 'Domesday Descendants' and the material in Clay's
> 'Early Yorkshire Charters', thus calling into question the previously
> accepted version of the pedigree showing how William Constable was a
> during the week to have a further look at EYC.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Alan has presented some very significant evidence for the resolution
of the conflicting pedigree of the Constable family in EYC XII ff p.
145, which gave Robert I Constable married to an unnamed daughter of
of William Tison, and his son, Robert II, as married to "Eufemia dau.
& coh. of Maud sister and coh.of William and mag. Roger Arundel". It
is clear from the quitclaim that they are co-parcenors in Holme.
When looking at the question back in 2003, because of Clay's
placement, I was unable to resolve the problem that John de Beauveur
was an heir of Roger Arundel, yet there was no explanation for his
Arundel connection. Clay comments on the problem in a footnote on
p."Exc. e Rot. Fin. i, 66. [RB- the fine which John Ravilious
presented to sgm in 2003]. The reference shows that John de Beauveur
had a share in the Arundel lands with the Constables, with whom he
also shared the Tison coheirship. This and other references are given
in EYC xi, pp. 198-2000 to show John de Beauveur's interest in the
Arundel coheirship. The reason for this, however, is obscure. If, as
appears, he was a first cousin of Robert Constable, William's father,
the may have married sisters; John's wife in that case being Alice,
Eufemia's sister; but there is no evidence for this, and, indeed,
Maud, John's wife in whose right he held lands in Winksley (p. 10
above), would have to have been a second wife. On the other hand, it
is difficult to see how John could have acquired an interest in the
Arundel coheirship by inheritance. With regard to Alice, Eufemia's
sister, a consideration of the Tison chronology now suggests that it
is impossible that she was Alice, the wife of William Tison, as was
tentatively suggested in EYC xi p.199n."
Clay's conclusion stems from a charter of John de Beauveur, which
Robert Constable of Holm attests [EYC XII p.69]. He assumed that John
Beauveur was a first cousin of Robert Constable. In fact they were
nephew and uncle, the latter witnessing by right of his wife. The
subsequent skewing of the generations has resulted in Clay's account
of the early Constables in which he confuses both Roberts. Eufemia,
wife of Robert II Constable was coheiress to both the Tison and
Arundel fees, with her sister Maud, mother of John de Beauveur. Robert
I Constable was not married to a Tison heiress at all. In fact I think
the question as to whether or not Robert I and Robert II are the same
individual needs to be resolved.
I have used the details from Clay's Tison pedigree on EYC XII p. 5 to
present the following solution
1.Gilbert Tison d, 1115-1130
2. Adam Tison d.1154-1159
+ Emma
3. William Tison holding 15 knight's fees of Roger de Mowbray
in 1166, d.bef Mich. 1180
+ Alice
4. Eufemia Tison
+ Robert Constable II of Flamborough occ 1185
5. William Constable, co-parcenor in Holme
4. Constance Tison d.s.p.
+ Ralph de Beauveur, steward of Roger Mowbray occ. 1185
4. Maud Tison
+ Robert de Beauveur occ 1185
5. John de Beauveur, co-parcenor in Holme
5. Sir John de Beauveur d. 1246-51
+ Maud (m. secondly William de Weighton)
6. Robert de Beauveur
5. Robert
5. Thomas
4. Agnes Tison d.s.p.
+ Hugh son of Malger de Steeton
On the deaths of two of the Tison heiresses, which occurred during the
lifetime of Maud, (she refers to her moiety of land by hereditary
right in Holm), the fee was afterwards divided between the Constables
and the Beauveurs.
On the strength of the above, the following is an amended pedigree of
the heirs of Roger de Arundel.
1. William de Arundel fl 1175
2. William de Arundel d.s.p.
2. Mag. Roger de Arundel d.s.p.c.1210
2. Cecily de Arundel
+ Jordan Lenveise
3.Joan de Lenveise
+ John de Birkin d.1230 - he married secondly Agnes de
Flammaville,
(widow of Wm Percy of Kildale d.1203)
4.Thomas de Birkin d.s.p.
4. Isabel Birkin d.c.1252
+ Robert de Everingham d.1246. Had issue
3.Denise de Lenveise
+(1)William de Glanville d.s.p.
+(2) Hubert de Anesty d.1210 (He married secondly Maud de
Cameys)
4.Nicholas de Anesty b.c.1193
5.Denise de Anesty d.1304
+ (1)Walter Langton d.1234
+ (2)Warin de Munchensy d.1255
6.William de Munchensy d 1287
+ Amice
7.Denise de Munchensy d.s.p.1313
+ (3)Robert Butyller
2.Maud de Arundel
+ NN
3.Alice
+ William Tison
4.Eufemia Tison
+ Robert Constable of Flamborough d.bef 1208
5.William the Constable of Flamborough
+ Juliana had issue
4.Maud Tison
+ Robert de Beauveur
5. John de Beauveur, had issue
2.Agnes de Arundel
+Robert de Hothum
3.Thomas de Hothum
4.Robert de Hothum
Cheers
Rosie
Rosie Bevan
5. John de Beauveur, co-parcenor in Holme
5. Sir John de Beauveur d. 1246-51
These are one and the same, of course!
Rosie
John Watson
>
> read more »
Dear Rosie,
Thanks again for taking the time to make these clarifications.
Regards,
John
mj...@btinternet.com
Rosie, this seems an excellent solution to me, and I agree that one
Robert Constable makes sense. What an excellent instance of
collegiality this thread has shown!
John, in case you are interested, there are various other documents
amongst the Constable papers on A2A which provide further particulars
of the Beauveur link, many involving the settlement of the Tison/
Arundel estates between Maud and her Constable relations.
Kind regards, Michael
taf
> Hello Group,
>
> Can anyone tell me if these two lines are correct:
Almost certainly not. ES is far afield here, while Moriarty
represents a synthesis of skaldic poetry, 12th and 13th century (and
later) Icelandic histories, and modern hypotheses with regard to these
sources.
The Ynglingatal was a skaldic poem attributed to Þjóðólfr of Hvinir, a
court poet of Ragnvald, King of Vestfold. The original has been lost,
but its parts have been summarized and quoted by later sources, in
particular Ynglingasaga. It Links king Ragnvald to the founders of
Vestfold, and before that to the Ynglinga kings of Sweden, and on back
to Njord, adopted son of Odin. The early part is typical of the heroic
age genealogy - intent of telling a story, linking the subject to
heroic ancestors (as opposed to authentic ancestry), with alliteration
and even numbers of generations (30, in this case, broken into 10s).
However, it is generally accepted that Ragnvald's immediate ancestry
would have been authentically presented (for legal reasons, it is
argued, 5 generations would have been accurately recorded). The
proximate generations are:
Olaf Treefeller (founder of Vestfold)
Halfdan Whiteleg, son of Olaf
Eystein son of Halfdan (who also had a son Godrod)
Halfdan, son of Eystein
Godrod the Magnificent, son of Halfdan
Olaf Girstedalf, son of Godrod
Ragnvald, son of Olaf
About 1900, a scholar suggested that the mention of Godrod, son of
Halfdan Whiteleg, seems out of place, there being no further
information provided. He speculated that the Ynglingasaga author has
confused Ynglingatal, and that Godrod the Magnificent was actually
this named son of Whiteleg, not his great grandson.
This is the reconstruction that Moriarty followed, although
specialists tend to maintain the original pedigree (although they
dismiss all of the marriages as being formulaic). Before moving on, I
should address several other points. Your Harald in the first list
seems out of place - I am guessing that it comes from an attempt to
harmonize two distinct theories. Likewise, none of these ruled at
"Haithabu". This is Hedeby, the center of the earliest documented
Danish state. The linkage comes from an attempt by a modern author to
identify Godrod the Magnificent with a Danish king Godfried who
appears in the Frankish annals, and hence uniting that kingdom with
the Norwegian Vestfold principality. (Note that even this unifying
theory makes Godred/Godfried an interloper, so calling his father a
king of Haithabu (Hedeby) is nonsense.) This theory is problematic, as
Godrod and Godfried are distinct names. As to Geva, this is from
Frankish sources that tell of Widukind taking refuge in the north, and
marrying the sister of the king. Where she fits is simply a matter of
chronological speculation. In the second list, Olaf did not rule at
Jutland (again, this comes from trying to identify two people named
Olaf in different places as the same individual).
Finally, the link between king Ragnvald and jarl Ragnvald. The former
was patron of Þjóðólfr, but (according to modern historians reading
between the lines in some of the Icelandic histories) was displaced by
a new group, represented by his contemporary (and in later histories,
his first cousin) Harald Fairhair (for whom Þjóðólfr later wrote). The
latter, as son of Eystein Glumra, comes from Orkneyingasaga. No
mention is made of his wife. He was a contemporary of Fairhair, and
his sons and Fairhair's sons are said to have carried out a private
war in the Hebrides (as told in Heimskringla). I know of nothing other
than recent work that suggest Eystein married a daughter of king
Ragnvald, or that Ragnvald had any descendants, for that matter. It
looks to me like someone wanted to tie the Norman rulers (who the
Orkneyingasaga connects to jarl Ragnvald) into the Ynglingatal kings.
taf