Jacquetta of Luxembourg

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
...
> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>
> Peter Stewart

Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

[John Higgins]

Here is the current state of Jacquetta's ancestry in Genealogics through the 8th generations:
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8

A lot of the blanks in this chart are going to be difficult to fill (e.g., when only a wife's given name is known but not a surname). But perhaps some readers here may have some leads on filling in the gaps.

[sba...@mindspring.com]

On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 10:46:03 AM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

Responding to such broad open-ended questions is difficult. You would be more likely to get useful responses by asking more specific questions about a small number of individuals.

Stewart Baldwin

[crow...@gmail.com]

Regarding Jacquetta's descent from "Maria" Taronitissa, a member of the Byzantine Taronites family, the latest research on the Taronites appears here:

Die Taronitai. Eine prosopographisch-sigillographische Studie
Stratos Nikolaros
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1515/mill-2017-0007 | Published online: 25 Apr 2018

But I can't seem to access it. Has anyone had any luck accessing it? I tried to pay for the article but I kept getting an error message.

Sincerely,

Chuck Owens

[Peter Stewart]

This is true in most cases, but here Jan is opening a broad discussion
that can be readily broken down into specific components by taking one
married couple at a time and applying Ahnentafel numbers to them for
extra clarity. I will try to do this anyway, bit by bit, and I hope
others will too.

I appreciate that some people prefer to examine long "vertical" lineages
rather than, or as well as, close "horizontal" connections, but I don't
have the brain-power for this or an interest in talking about anyone's
great-great-grandparent whom they (like us) could only have known as a
name and hearsay or documented story, not as a personality touching
their own memory.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Thanks, John. At a first glance, one minor point worth making is that
Leo had taken many dates of death from *Europäische Stammtafeln* in the
form "Aft[er]" whatever year, e.g. "Aft 1393" for #5 Marguerite
d'Enghien (who incidentally was countess of Brienne & Conversano, both
titles held by her husband #4 in her right). However, Marguerite was
last recorded on 19 September in 1393 so it is not established that she
lived beyond the end of the same year.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

At a second glance I see that Leo had given more detail in his page for
Marguerite, placing her death after her testament dated 19 September
1393, so this is left vague only in the ancestor table.

The death of #32 Valeran II of Luxemburg is placed on his page "Aft 23
Aug 1366" - this is correct, but since the actual date of his death was
26 January according to the necrology of Saint-Pierre de Lille it may be
worth amending to this date after 1366 (new style).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 4:10 AM, John Higgins wrote:

The parentage given for Jeanne #65 (following ES vol. 13 table 165) is
problematic.

She was the heiress of Beaurevoir, sometimes called Beauvoir as in
Genealogics, where Joan of Arc was later held captive. Her parents are
not certainly known as far as I'm aware, but they are not likely to have
been Mathieu #130 and Mathilde #131 as shown - this couple were recorded
with three children in the early 1230s, two sons and a daughter named
Oda. It is a chronological stretch for another daughter of theirs to
have been Jeanne, who married for the first time in the early 1260s. She
was more probably their granddaughter, heiress of Beaurevoir as daughter
one of their sons (Mathieu and Jacques) whose marriages are unknown to me.

In ES, citing mainly works of Octave le Maire, Jeanne is shown as the
only child of Mathieu and Mathilde, that does not inspire confidence.
Other secondary sources give her father's name as Jean or Baudouin, but
these may be guesses as far as I can tell.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On the page for Marguerite d'Enghien (https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00007728&tree=LEO), Leo cites "Europäische Stammtafeln, Band III, Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven, 1976, Isenburg, W. K. Prinz von. 109." I think that means Table 109 in volume 3 in the second series of Europäische Stammtafeln. I just looked at vol. 3 on Hathi (emergency temporary access service), but the publication date of the copy there is 1965. Was there a revision in 1976 or was the book simply reprinted?

The next citation on the page for Marguerite is "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.). 57:79." I think that means the new (third} series of Europäische Stammtafeln. But what does "57:79" mean? In the sources on Marguerite's father's page, the first citation is to "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.). 7:79" Perhaps "57:79" is just a typo and should have been "7:79"? If so does that mean vol. 7, table 79?

The publisher's website lists the volumes of the new series here, https://www.klostermann.de/epages/63574303.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63574303/Categories/Buecher/Stammtafeln, and has a link to an index. In the index, I see "Enghien, Sire d´ VII/78-79; XXVII/38-39" listed, but in the list of volumes, there is no volume VII. So what does "VII/78-79" mean?

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 2:54 PM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On the page for Marguerite d'Enghien (https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00007728&tree=LEO), Leo cites "Europäische Stammtafeln, Band III, Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven, 1976, Isenburg, W. K. Prinz von. 109." I think that means Table 109 in volume 3 in the second series of Europäische Stammtafeln. I just looked at vol. 3 on Hathi (emergency temporary access service), but the publication date of the copy there is 1965. Was there a revision in 1976 or was the book simply reprinted?

Perhaps Hathi's "emergency temporary access service" is restricted to US
users, as I can't see any such option.

For the present I can't visit a library to check, but from memory
Isenburg's work started with a single volume in 1932, then he published
a second edition from 1953 to 1965, then Freytag von Loringhoven
published corrected and augmented versions in 1976. Don't quote me on
these years. Detlev Schwennicke took over as editor, with the same title
but "neue Folge" volume numeration, from 1977.

> The next citation on the page for Marguerite is "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.). 57:79." I think that means the new (third} series of Europäische Stammtafeln. But what does "57:79" mean? In the sources on Marguerite's father's page, the first citation is to "Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg, Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.). 7:79" Perhaps "57:79" is just a typo and should have been "7:79"? If so does that mean vol. 7, table 79?

Yes, "57:79" appears to be a typo for 7:79.

> The publisher's website lists the volumes of the new series here, https://www.klostermann.de/epages/63574303.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63574303/Categories/Buecher/Stammtafeln, and has a link to an index. In the index, I see "Enghien, Sire d´ VII/78-79; XXVII/38-39" listed, but in the list of volumes, there is no volume VII. So what does "VII/78-79" mean?

Schwennicke's vol. VII was published in 1979, with the sub-title
"Familien des alten Lotharingien II", so perhaps the publisher's website
has included it with part I (i.e. vol VI) published in 1978. Table 78 in
vol. VII is headed "Les Seigneurs d'Enghien I, auch Châtelains de Mons",
and table 79 continuing this is headed "Die Herren von Zotteghem
(Flandern), auch Titularherzoge von Athen".

Germans tend to love bibliographic complexity, sometimes to the point of
lunacy.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

You can download (free) his 2016 master's thesis on this subject here:

https://othes.univie.ac.at/42570/

Peter Stewart

[crow...@gmail.com]

Excellent! Thank you so much Peter.

Sincerely,

Chuck Owens

[Jan Wolfe]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 1:34:48 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> Perhaps Hathi's "emergency temporary access service" is restricted to US
> users, as I can't see any such option.
>
> For the present I can't visit a library to check, but from memory
> Isenburg's work started with a single volume in 1932, then he published
> a second edition from 1953 to 1965, then Freytag von Loringhoven
> published corrected and augmented versions in 1976. Don't quote me on
> these years. Detlev Schwennicke took over as editor, with the same title
> but "neue Folge" volume numeration, from 1977.

...

> Schwennicke's vol. VII was published in 1979, with the sub-title
> "Familien des alten Lotharingien II", so perhaps the publisher's website
> has included it with part I (i.e. vol VI) published in 1978. Table 78 in
> vol. VII is headed "Les Seigneurs d'Enghien I, auch Châtelains de Mons",
> and table 79 continuing this is headed "Die Herren von Zotteghem
> (Flandern), auch Titularherzoge von Athen".
>
> Germans tend to love bibliographic complexity, sometimes to the point of
> lunacy.
>
> Peter Stewart

Thank you, Peter.

In tables 106-109 about the von Luxemburg family in Band III (1964, edited by Loringhoven), there are lots of names, dates, and relationships, but no citations. Do the 1976 Loringhoven volumes have citations? Do the Schwennicke volumes have citations?

The Hathi emergency temporary access service is only available to students and faculty logged in at a Hathi member university, only some of the restricted books are available, and the books cannot be downloaded. At first one could download individual pages as pdfs, but that option is no longer available. I think that only one person can electronically "check out" a book at a time, and the book is due the next day. It's supposed to be a substitute for visiting one's own university library in person.

The set of ES that I can see on Hathi has Band I, Band II, Band III and Band IV. Band I and Band II are bound together with two title pages. The title pages state:
Von Wilhelm Karl Prinz von Isenburg
Berichtiger und ergänzter Abdruck der 2. verbesserten Auflage von 1953
herausgegeben von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven
Marburg
Verlag von J. A. Stargardt
1965

The title page of Band 3 states:
Von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven
3. Verbesserte Auflage
Marburg
Verlag von J. A. Stargardt
1964

The title page of Band 4 states:
Von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven
Marburg
Verlag von J. A. Stargardt
1961

Hathi also has the Schwennicke volumes T.1-T.3, T.5, and vol. 17-vol. 27 from the University of Virginia, but I cannot access them.

From the University of California (also not accessible to me), Hathi has vols. 2-5 with the following description:
Founded by Wilhelm Karl Prinz von Isenburg. Vols. 2-5 edited by Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven (v. 5: "From the estate published by Detlev Schwennicke")
Vol. 2 (1976): "Corrected and supplemented reprint of the 2nd edition from 1953."

[John Higgins]

Volume 3 of ES (by Freytag von Loringhoven) was originally published in 1956 The editions of that volume (along with vol. 4) in 1965 and 1976 are simply reprints of the original volume. All 5 volumes of of the F von L edition of ES were once available online via the FHL, but they no longer seem to be there. Fortunately I have downloaded copies of them.

All the Schwennicke volumes have the words "Neue Folge" in the title. I refer to them collectively as ESNF to distinguish them from the earlier ES volumes of F von L. A few of the earliest volumes of ESNF are no longer in print and have been replaced by new, expanded and updated new volumes (or, in the case of vol. 1, by 3 volumes - volumes 1 parts 1, 2, and 3). So, volume 6 was replaced by volume 18 and volume 7 was replaced by volume 28. Apparently both the new and old volumes are included in the publisher's index to the over-all series.

And, yes, the reference to "57:79" was indeed a typo - it should be 7:79.

[John Higgins]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-7, Jan Wolfe wrote:

>
> In tables 106-109 about the von Luxemburg family in Band III (1964, edited by Loringhoven), there are lots of names, dates, and relationships, but no citations. Do the 1976 Loringhoven volumes have citations? Do the Schwennicke volumes have citations?
>

Both the Loringhoven volumes and the Schwennicke volumes follow the same (less than satisfactory) method of providing bibliographic references. At the front of each volume, there is a page (or a few pages) where sources are provided for each group of pages pertaining to a specific family. So it is difficult if not impossible to find the specific source for information on particular individuals. Unfortunately, that's the way it is...

[John Higgins]

The pedigree chart for jacquetta that I linked to above doesn't show the ancestor numbers which Peter has been referring to in his subsequen tposts. For those of who can't easily determine ancestor numbers from such a chart, here is the same 8-generation ancestry for Jacquetta in ahnentafel form - with the ancestor numbers:
https://www.genealogics.org/ahnentafel.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO&parentset=0&generations=8

[Peter Stewart]

On 09-Jun-20 1:57 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:

<snip>

> In tables 106-109 about the von Luxemburg family in Band III (1964, edited by Loringhoven), there are lots of names, dates, and relationships, but no citations. Do the 1976 Loringhoven volumes have citations? Do the Schwennicke volumes have citations?

ES, like so many other projects in scholarship, suffered from the curse
of being in the hands of clever fools. They took on far too much, went
at it far too quickly, and skimmed over the very practices that might
have made their work more useful. The ADHD of academia, in full flight.

> The Hathi emergency temporary access service is only available to students and faculty logged in at a Hathi member university, only some of the restricted books are available, and the books cannot be downloaded. At first one could download individual pages as pdfs, but that option is no longer available. I think that only one person can electronically "check out" a book at a time, and the book is due the next day. It's supposed to be a substitute for visiting one's own university library in person.

And of course IT is now hostage to an army of clever fools, who blithely
lose focus on the real purpose of whatever they set out to do. Hathi has
rendered itself almost useless for the facilitation of learning, which
presumably was behind the initiative at its start. Like Google Books
with its imbecilic "snippet view", the enterprise has turned into a
gigantic tease instead of a helpful resource.

The piffling amounts of money that could ever possibly be generated from
most copyright material once the first print run is sold out have
twisted fresh little smartipants brains into stale pretzels of
stupidity. The story of our times...

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Thanks, John - with luck you will have saved me from counting blunders
that I was bound to fall into as this thread goes on.

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 3:20:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:

> And of course IT is now hostage to an army of clever fools, who blithely
> lose focus on the real purpose of whatever they set out to do. Hathi has
> rendered itself almost useless for the facilitation of learning, which
> presumably was behind the initiative at its start. Like Google Books
> with its imbecilic "snippet view", the enterprise has turned into a
> gigantic tease instead of a helpful resource.

Don't know if this is something others experience or is some conflict with my operating system, but about a year ago Hathi became deathly slow for me. I can hardly stand reading anything there because it takes as long as fifteen seconds to load each page, and though that doesn't seem long, it adds up when you are paging through to find what you want, particularly when it defaults to dumping the page as soon as you move on so if you go back you have to wait for it to reload again from scratch.

> The piffling amounts of money that could ever possibly be generated from
> most copyright material once the first print run is sold out have
> twisted fresh little smartipants brains into stale pretzels of
> stupidity. The story of our times...

Partly the fault of the lawyers. Funded by the big publishers who wanted a piece of the pie from wealthy Google, they argued that the very act of Google saving their content on Google's servers, even if they didn't show it to anyone, violated copyright. They got their settlement and it made all the hosts skittish. That is about when Google started taking down old books that had been reissued, and everyone simply ignored that almost all books published before the mid-1950s in the US had been in the public domain for decades, and simply went with the ultra-conservative 1922 cutoff that they are still following.

taf

[Jan Wolfe]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 2:10:41 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
> Both the Loringhoven volumes and the Schwennicke volumes follow the same (less than satisfactory) method of providing bibliographic references. At the front of each volume, there is a page (or a few pages) where sources are provided for each group of pages pertaining to a specific family. So it is difficult if not impossible to find the specific source for information on particular individuals. Unfortunately, that's the way it is...

Thanks, John. With your explanations and Peter's, I now have a better understanding of the sources ES and ESNF.

In ES Band III (1964, edited by Loringhoven), the bibliography is after the tables. It states for the von Luxemburg tables:

106. 107. 108. 109. 110. 111. M. Paul Adam hat mir zu diesen Tafeln zahlreiche Ergänzungen gegeben, die leider erst nach Fertigstellung der 2. Lieferung eintrafen.

Then there are two and a half columns of "facts" which appear to be additions to the information in the tables. Among the additions to Table 109, I see the following:

Die Gemahlin von Johann von Beauvoir nannte sich von Enghien. Johanna. [d.] 13. X. 1430. Dame d'Ailly usw.; außdem Marguerite; [m.]I 1377 Pierre d'Enghien, Comte de Liches; [m.]II Jean de Verchin, [d.] 1415

Apparently, the words after "außdem Marguerite" refer to an additional daughter of Guy von Luxemburg not shown in table 109. Leo does have her with these two marriages, citing ESNF 6:28.

Leo also has the death date for Guy's daughter Jean (here Johanna) as 13 October 1430, citing ESNF 6:28.

The von Luxemburg siblings Jean von Beauvoir and Marguerite married cousins, Marguerite von Enghien and Pierre von Enghien who were their 4th cousins once removed.

[Peter Stewart]

Yes, I realise it was lawyers who spooked Google and Hathi - but this
doesn't excuse their rushing in to establish partnerships with libraries
before (and, as it turned out, at the expense of) negotiating with
publishers.

Academic publishing is already a nonsense, not least in Germany. The
prices extorted to sustain the vanity of small print runs of journals
and books that only richly-endowed and/or publicly-funded institutions
can afford, while then withholding the material in these for many years
from the public who have paid for other people's privileged access,
offend against sense and scholarship equally. The trigger for releasing
digitisations ought to be that the work is no longer available in print,
and so the author's opportunity to earn income from its dissemination
has lapsed. If the copyright-holder is at the same time earning a salary
from a rich endowment and/or from public funding, how is that much
better than being a pointless mini-me of subsidised big pharma
exploiting the market for medicines?

Peter Stewart

[taf]

With the whole thing laid out here, is anyone aware of any reason to doubt the authenticity of the descent from Tancred of Sicily to Jacquetta?

taf

[Peter Stewart]

On 09-Jun-20 9:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 2:10:41 PM UTC-4, John Higgins wrote:
>> Both the Loringhoven volumes and the Schwennicke volumes follow the same (less than satisfactory) method of providing bibliographic references. At the front of each volume, there is a page (or a few pages) where sources are provided for each group of pages pertaining to a specific family. So it is difficult if not impossible to find the specific source for information on particular individuals. Unfortunately, that's the way it is...
>
> Thanks, John. With your explanations and Peter's, I now have a better understanding of the sources ES and ESNF.
>
> In ES Band III (1964, edited by Loringhoven), the bibliography is after the tables. It states for the von Luxemburg tables:
>
> 106. 107. 108. 109. 110. 111. M. Paul Adam hat mir zu diesen Tafeln zahlreiche Ergänzungen gegeben, die leider erst nach Fertigstellung der 2. Lieferung eintrafen.
>
> Then there are two and a half columns of "facts" which appear to be additions to the information in the tables.

Frank Freytag von Loringhoven must have been exasperated with Paul Adam
for giving his additions too late for the printing of tables. I think
Detlev Schwennicke has been similarly at the mercy of dallying
contributors at times.

This kind of cumulative work would be better-placed online than in print
nowadays. But the volume of paper used in the world seems to have
increased grotesquely ever since a paperless "future" became practicable.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

Upon checking, I see that I misspoke with regard to one point in my comments above about ESNF. I had said that volume 7 of ESNF had been replaced by volume 28. In fact, volumes 7 AND 8 together were replaced by the four volumes 26 through 29. All the families in 7 and 8 are covered in 26 through 29 (although grouped differently than they were in 7 and 8), and quite a number of new families not previously covered in ESNF are added in the new volumes.

[Peter Stewart]

I'm not, but also I'm not sure what has led you to ask. Are you
wondering if Tancred may not have been the father of Albiria, whose son
Gautier IV of Brienne was born posthumously, or perhaps that her first
husband may not have been the father because her second wedding was
contracted before the child's birth and postponed due to her pregnancy?

Peter Stewart

[taf]

No, nothing so profound as that - just that if true it would likely represent the primary avenue by which people of English ancestry might trace descent from Isabella, 4th wife of Alfonso VI. Claimed descents from her usually are traced through her other daughter, Sancha, via a son that Salazar y Castro just invented to bridge between two people he thought should be related (but are now generally accepted by scholars not to have been). I knew this descent was there, but have never studied it in detail, and as I just told somebody earlier in this discussion, nobody can be an expert at everything. With my superficial familiarity with the sourcing there could very well have been some hypothetical obvious flaw known to someone with more relevant expertise but not to me. That's all.

taf

[Peter Stewart]

Right, apologies for my overthinking it.

Albiria was recorded as one of three daughters of Tancred, and she was
evidently the eldest since her first husband Gautier III of Brienne
assumed the title 'prince of Taranto' and claimed the throne of Sicily
by her right. (Presumably she was named after Tancred's paternal
grandmother, Elvira of Castile, underlining the descent you mention.)

The descent from this couple to Jacquetta's great-great-grandmother #21
Isabeau, heiress of Brienne, is well-attested.

When it comes to medieval genealogy, expertise is only as good as the
sources relied on - and these can be wrong. Knowing everything would be
a ticket to a padded cell.

Peter Stewart

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Speaking of Queen Isabela, what is your current opinion on whether she was the same person as Zaida?

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

It's slow going down such a long list of ancestors. The entry for #154
Jean de Brienne looks somewhat bare of details.

He was known as Jean of Acre, seigneur of La Loupelande and butler of
France. After the death of his first wife, with whom he was Jacquetta's
ancestor, he married (between 13 September 1256 & 6 June 1257) Marie de
Coucy, dowager queen of Scotland. They enjoyed a third of the royal
revenues, but Jean spent his time in the courts of France and Castile
without getting much involved in Scottish affairs except as a nominal
member of the council of ten that ruled the kingdom in the minority of
his step-son Alexander III.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 09-Jun-20 9:43 AM, taf wrote:

> On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 3:20:43 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>> And of course IT is now hostage to an army of clever fools, who blithely
>> lose focus on the real purpose of whatever they set out to do. Hathi has
>> rendered itself almost useless for the facilitation of learning, which
>> presumably was behind the initiative at its start. Like Google Books
>> with its imbecilic "snippet view", the enterprise has turned into a
>> gigantic tease instead of a helpful resource.
>
> Don't know if this is something others experience or is some conflict with my operating system, but about a year ago Hathi became deathly slow for me. I can hardly stand reading anything there because it takes as long as fifteen seconds to load each page, and though that doesn't seem long, it adds up when you are paging through to find what you want, particularly when it defaults to dumping the page as soon as you move on so if you go back you have to wait for it to reload again from scratch.

I just looked at a full-view book on Hathi for the first time in a
while, and did not run into the problems you described.

For me there is an added nuisance of needing to go through a proxy
server for titles that are available to read in the US but not in
Australia. Despite this, I don't find it slow to load new pages.

Usually I don't try to use arrows for moving from page to page, unless
occasionally when using a two-page view. For single pages it is quicker
for me to adjust the sequence number at the end of the URL to choose a
different page, even when this is the next or preceding one. But still,
it isn't slow for me when using arrows. Perhaps I am likely to be using
Hathi at times when their servers are less busy than in your waking hours.

Also I can still download each page separately, which Jan mentioned she
could not do recently (maybe this problem is only via "emergency access").

Peter Stewart

[taf]

On Monday, June 8, 2020 at 11:50:02 PM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> Speaking of Queen Isabela, what is your current opinion on whether she
> was the same person as Zaida?

More likely than not, but still uncertain.

taf

[Jan Wolfe]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 7:41:03 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> Also I can still download each page separately, which Jan mentioned she
> could not do recently (maybe this problem is only via "emergency access").
>

> Peter StewItrt

Yes, it is only for the Hathi temporary emergency access books that one cannot download pdfs of individual pages. For full access books, logged in users from associated universities can download a pdf of the entire book as well as pdfs of individual pages.
I find that Hathi is sometimes discouragingly slow and sometimes reasonably fast.
The project of digitizing books, greatly augmented by the agreement with Google in December 2004 to begin digitizing entire libraries, has immensely expanded our ability to access the information in books.

[Peter Stewart]

Um, so says a privileged-access user ...

Of course it has, and the immensely-expanded ability is immensely
compromised by the greedy and stupid failure of Google to negotiate a
system of royalty payments for copyright material accessed through their
digitisation project.

For instance, they could track each page viewed and credit payments
accordingly to each author in a journal. However small the income, it
would presumably be preferable to the scholars of the world and their
publishers than the alternative, where they hardly benefit from library
circulation and not at all from second-hand book sales.

But they were so focused on obtaining content from which they could
indirectly extract advertising revenue for their shareholders at minimal
cost to their corporation that they barged ahead into needless
litigation and a permanently-compromised "service" that withholds
information in many of the most useful books.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Further to the Brienne ancestry, there are a few problems in Genealogics
beyond #154.

His father, the famous Jean de Brienne #308, is given as a son of #617
Agnès de Montfaucon, but this is questionable. His mother's name was
Agnès, but she may have been a second wife of his father after the death
of the first - who was from the Montfaucon family, but not definitely
named Agnès. The mother of Jean may have been a daughter of Guillaume
III, count of Nevers, Auxerre and Tonnerre by Ida of Sponheim.

Also the wife of Jean's paternal grandfather #1232 Gautier II of Brienne
is shown as the first of multiple wives - this is an old and persistent
error that was discussed here in 2011:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Brienne$20Nevers$20Sponheim/soc.genealogy.medieval/B9DWj-CaD0M/nci8wkKV1fEJ

Peter Stewart

[JBrand]

I like Hathi, but it's always been a bit on the slow side. With the Chromebook I'm currently using, it only allows me to see the top half of each page within the viewer (I have to make a pdf to see what's at the bottom of the page).

Google Books seems to be showing less and less as time goes by. You'll come across "snippet" views in which the date of publication is in the 1890s or earlier (I suppose there must have been some obscure reprint which is still in copyright?). On my Chromebook, the snippets often (not always) appear for a fraction of a second and then disappear totally.

[Peter Stewart]

On 11-Jun-20 3:19 AM, JBrand wrote:

<snip>

> Google Books seems to be showing less and less as time goes by. You'll come across "snippet" views in which the date of publication is in the 1890s or earlier (I suppose there must have been some obscure reprint which is still in copyright?). On my Chromebook, the snippets often (not always) appear for a fraction of a second and then disappear totally.

I have not run into the second of these problems (yet...), but the first
has definitely surfaced recently.

When Google Books first appeared it became my habit to download any
useful book I came across that wasn't otherwise available. For years
this meant keeping pdf copies that did not allow copy-pasting, which
could be remedied from a few years ago when the same digitisations were
refreshed and made more flexible. (Apologies, I don't know the IT jargon
to describe this better.)

So occasionally I update the copies I kept with new downloads of the
same titles. Until recently this was always possible, but lately titles
from the 1890s onwards (to 1909, that for some crackpot reason that I
think Todd can explain has been the cut-off point for years now) are no
longer available.

However, these are not usually books or journals that could conceivably
be reprinted except perhaps as on-demand single copies. I think the
withdrawing to "snippet view" is probably more from incompetent
librarianship and/or dumb panic in partner institutions, since the same
titles are often fully available from other libraries' digitisations -
IF they can be found from the often idiotic cataloguing systems used in
some US universities.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

Leo had not given any ancestors for #163 Elisabeth d'Ecry - her family
was set out by William Mendel Newman in *Les seigneurs de Nesle en
Picardie* (1971), vol. 1 pp. 145-148, as follows:

163 Elisabeth, occurring 1232 [Newman did not mention that she was
married by December 1237 to Manasses IV, count of Rethel]

326 Gérard II, seigneur of Ecry & Bertincourt, died before 1256 (?)
327 Félicité, called Comtesse, occurring 1232, 1239

652 Gérard I, seigneur of Ecry & Bertincourt, died 1223/March 1232
653 Catherine, died before February 1223

1304 Raoul, seigneur of Ecry, occurring from 1190, died 24 May 1211
1305 Ide de Clacy, died in or before 1197

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

I should have added (also from Newman, vol. 1 p. 180):

1610 Gérard I, vidame of Laonnois, died 1140
1611 Adelvie de Clacy

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

The ancestry shown in Genealogics for #85 Isabelle of La
Roche-sur-l'Ognon of Athens is at odds with her family as established by
Antoine Bon in *La Morée franque*, 2 vols (1969), as follows:

#170 Guy I, co-seigneur of Thebes 1211, megas kyr of Athens 1225, duke
1260, d 1263
#171 N, niece of Guillaume II de Villehardouin, prince of Achaia

#340 Pons of La Roche-sur-l'Ognon
#341 NN

#680 Pons of La Roche-sur-l'Ognon
#681 NN (Mathélie in Genealogics)

#1360 Othon, seigneur of La Roche-sur-l'Ognon, occurring 1130-1170
#1361 NN

Guy I #170 was a nephew, not son, of Othon who became megas kyr of
Athens in 1205, seigneur of Argos & Naulia in 1211 and returned to
France in 1225. This Othon married in 1208 Isabelle, daughter of Guy de
Ray (and a half-sister of Clarembaud V of Chappes).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

The addition in parentheses should read "and later a sister of
Clarembaud V of Chappes" - I mistakenly supposed that her father
Clarembaud IV had two wives, but it appears he had only one wife with
two names (Helissende and Elisabeth).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On third thoughts, this purported second marriage of Othon should be
questioned.

His wife was usually said to have been Isabelle, heiress of Ray (which
his namesake son inherited). I can't find any medieval source for this,
but it held sway until Jean Longnon identified her instead as Elisabeth
of Chappes on the shaky basis of a charter dated December 1236 as
transcribed by Jacques Vignier in the 17th century.

Longnon took this at face value - it says: "Clarembaudus dominus
Capparum ... specialiter autem pro remedio Elisabeth sororis meæ quondam
Atheniensis duccissæ [sic]" (Clarembaud seigneur of Chappes ...
especially for the soul of my sister Elisabeth, formerly duchess of Athens).

However, there was properly no ducal title of Athens until 1260 when
this was accorded to Othon's nephew Guy. Although Othon was only megas
kyr, he was called duke retrospectively by his son - but if this was the
case 24 years before the title formally existed it might be expected to
crop up more frequently and directly than in a tangential context.

Geoffroy de Villehardouin, bailli of Morea and prince of Achaia, married
Isabelle of Chappes according to most historians (also without an
explicit medieval source for her family origin that I can find). Marie
Guérin in her 2014 Sorbonne doctoral thesis made Elisabeth and Isabelle
of Chappes into two women, sisters, but there is no evidence at all for
this: we have several charters of Clarembaud IV naming his sons and a
single daughter Elisabeth, from before 1189 and in 1194 and also an
extract in French (again by Vignier) dated to 1198.

It seems to me that, without better evidence for the 1236 charter, the
designation "Atheniensis" given by Vignier may have been a misreading on
his part or that of an earlier copyist, possibly for "Achaiensis", for
the deceased wife of Geoffroy de Villehardouin and not of Othon de la
Roche-sur-l'Ognon.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO
>

Some further details for wives in the Sanseverino ancestry:

#44 Margherita Clignet was probably born earlier than ca 1310 - she was
married first to Jacquet Burson, by whom she had no offspring, and
secondly (as his second wife) to #44 Tommaso.

His mother #89 Ilaria di Lauria was living in 1340, when she obtained
royal assent to divide her inheritance between her sons Tommaso and
Ruggiero - a third son, Ugo, was probably deceased by then. I'm not sure
when she died.

This information comes from works of Sylvie Pollastri:

'Les Burson d'Anjou, barons de Nocera puis comtes de Satriano
(1268-1400)', in *La noblesse dans les territoires angevins à la fin du
Moyen âge* (Rome, 2000)

*Le lignage et le fief: l'affirmation du milieu comtal et la
construction des États féodaux sous les Angevins de Naples (1265-1435)*
(Paris, 2011)

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO
>

More on the Sanseverino ancestry:

#88 Enrico was not count of Marsico - he died in the lifetime of his
father, #176 Tommaso, who was.

Enrico was lord of Cuccaro and constable of Sicily. His death is placed
ca 1317 in Genealogics - he was last recorded as living in that year,
and was dead before 5 November 1319 when #89 Ilaria di Lauria was
described as his widow in a letter of Pope John XXII.

Ilaria's mother #179 Margherita Lancia (Margarita Lanza in Genealogics)
was a sister of Corrado Lancia, count of Caltanissetta, and the admiral
Manfredi Lancia, according to Andreas Kiesewetter in *Dizionario
biografico degli Italiani*, vol. 64 (2005). Their father was Federico,
from a Piedmontese family.

Enrico's mother #177 was not Isnarda de Courban as shown in Genealogics
- this was his father's first wife, Isnarde or Isolde, whose father
Amiel d'Agoult (from Provence, called Amadio di Agoldo in Genealogics)
was lord of Corbano. #177 should be amended to the second wife of #176
Tommaso, who was Marguerite, daughter of (#354) Henri I, count of
Vaudémont and Ariano. Her mother was (#355) Marguerite, most probably a
sister of #85 Isabelle de la Roche of Athens mentioned upthread.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO
>

The father ascribed in Genealogics to #178 Ruggero di Lauria, the
celebrated admiral, is fictitious - #356 Richardo de Lauria and #712
Gibel de Loria should be deleted from Jacquetta's ancestry: this line
was merely a name's-the-same-or-near-enough invention by an author
calling himself "D.A.L.", who published *Memorie storico-genealogiche di
Ruggiero ed Andreotto Loria* (Naples, 1878).

The identity of #356 is unknown and any given name proposed for him is
guesswork. He was evidently a member of the Lauria family and his wife
#357 Bella d'Amico, or de Amichi, was recorded as the mother of Ruggero.
She was governess to Constanza, daughter of Emperor Frederick II's
illegitimate son Manfredi of Benevento, king of Sicily, who married
Pedro III of Aragón.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

I should have added: the parentage of #357 Bella is unknown - it is
thought that she was sister to Guglielmo, who described himself as son
of the count of Amico ("filius domini comitis Amici"). The latter,
probably Ruggero's maternal grandfather, apparently lived until 1248 but
his name was not found by Laura Sciascia for her study of the family,
'Nome e memoria: i De Amicis dalla conquista normanna al Vespro', in
*Puer Apuliae: mélanges offerts à Jean-Marie Martin* (2008).

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

#98 Guigues "Mechan de Tounel" should be amended to Guigues Meschin II
du Tournel. He was living in 1271.

His wife is named in Genealogics as #99 Vierne de Valergues - this was
stated, without citing a source, by Denis-François Gastelier de La Tour
in *Généalogie de la maison de Châteauneuf de Randon* (1783), adding the
date 18 March 1239 for the marriage. Père Anselme had called the same
wife Valpurge, but made significant mistakes in the generation before
and after #98 Guigues Meschin II. More recently his wife has been
identified as Alaysie Pelet d'Alais, though I don't know a medieval
source for this either.

His father #196 "Adilon I de Châteauneuf" should be amended to Odilon
Guérin of Châteauneuf de Randon.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

I should have looked further: #196 Odilon Guérin was living in 1237. His
mother was not Marie d'Assumens as given in Genealogics but #393
Guillelma de Saissac, who was named by her younger son Guigues in 1219.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 18-Jun-20 8:30 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

I have not been able to find any published medieval source for the
marriage/s of #98 Guigues Meschin II of Le Tournel.

Valpurge, as given by Père Anselme, can be ruled out - she was evidently
the wife of his namesake paternal uncle.

According to André Philippe in *La baronnie du Tournel et ses seigneurs*
(1903) in 1260 Guigues named his wife as Alaissette, and she was
mentioned as Asyalacia is a charter of his son dated 1287. However,
Philippe did not print these documents and he did not ascribe a family
origin to her. He accumulated three wives for Guigues in his table,
though giving enough information in the text to suggest that the second
(Valpurge, as above) belonged elsewhere. He also indicated that #99
Vierne de Valergues comes from Gastelier de La Tour, and that it is
uncertain who was the mother of #98's offspring.

As for #49 Eucharie, her existence seems to come from Jean-Antoine
Pithon-Curt in vol. 4 of *Histoire de la noblesse du Comté-Venaissin,
d'Avignon et de la principauté d’Orange* (1750), where her parents were
not specified and no authority was given for her marriage.

The seigneurial family of Tournel has not been very thoroughly studied
in print since Philippe's work, apart from some corrections to this by
Stanisław Stroński (1908) and Clovis Brunel (1910). This was one of
several baronial lineages in Gévaudan with a legendary descent from an
unnamed king of Hungary whose only daughter is supposed to have eloped
with a local, living at Mende in poverty until her father on tour in
France happened along needing to rest his horses, whereupon the runaway
was reconciled with her father (who abdicated in order to stay with her)
and her seven sons were elevated from trade apprenticeships to
lordships. Hey-ho. Another version of this substituted a count of
Toulouse for the king of Hungary.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO

The ancestry of #27 Isabella Etendard and #123 Eustachie Etendard as
given in Genealogics may be wrong, or at any rate not proven.

They belonged to a family that has never been definitively traced to its
origin, known as Etendard in France and Stendardo in Italy. The first of
them on record, #108 and #246 Guillaume (Guglielmo) the elder, was
evidently a vassal of the counts of Montfort who received fiefs from
them in Provence. He was probably seneschal of Beaucaire in 1247 and
accompanied Guy de Montfort, later count of Nola, at the battle of
Benevento in 1266 when the kingdom of Sicily was conquered for Charles I
of Anjou. He was appointed vicar general of Sicily on 21 August 1269 and
died between 17 January and 24 February 1271.

It is easier to say who this Guillaume was not by descent than who he
was. He was called "of Beynes", that has misled some historians into
making him a son of Guy of Nola's namesake great-uncle who was seigneur
of Castres in the Albigeois (killed in battle in 1229) by his second
wife Briande who has been miscalled "of Beynes" - this is an error for
Vénès in the Albigeois, between Castres and Albi, which was presumably
held by her as dower from her first husband who was seigneur of Lombers
around 11 kms away. Her only son by Guy de Montfort was also named Guy
and he inherited Lombers from his childless half-brother, dying in the
early 1250s before his mother who lived until September 1260. Any claim
that #108 and #246 Guillaume Etendard was the same person as this Guy de
Montfort of Lombers is nonsense - apart from their distinct names, we
know the latter's quite different history from testimony given by family
members about rights to Lombers at the end of the 13th century.

It is also not certain that #108 and #246 Guillaume the elder was a son
of Robert of Beynes as sometimes asserted. The castle of Beynes belonged
to Saint-Germain-des-Prés abbey and was held by the counts of Montfort
from the early-12th century, probably before - it was at the northern
limit of their territory and apparently sub-tenanted by a vassal family
that took it as a toponym. They were probably also Montfort tenants at
Etendard in the seigneurie of Épernon - the surname Etendard, or
Stendardo, does not indicate that they were standard-bearers of the
Angevin kings of Sicily or anyone else, as often wrongly asserted.

There is no convincing evidence I have seen that the Etendard family was
a cadet branch of the seigneurs of Milly as has also been claimed.

#108 and #246 Guillaume was either the father or grandfather of #54
Guglielmo II, known as Guillaume the younger and also called "of
Beynes", who died probably in 1308 having been marshal and constable of
the Sicilian kingdom under Charles II of Anjou.

The succession of Guillaumes in the line is not certain, and there may
have been another namesake between the elder and younger men above. #246
Petronilla of Mesnil-Renard may have been the wife of a middle Guillaume
rather than the second wife of the elder, as noted by Thierry Pécout in
*Dizionario biografico degli Italiani* vol. 94 (2019).

Also, #55 Isabella d'Aquino is problematic - the (first or second) wife
of #54 Guglielmo was identified in the 17th century as Giovanna
d'Aquino, a sister of Isabella (both nieces of St Thomas Aquinus), but
the medieval source for this marriage appears to have been lost since
and anyway it is not clear that she left any children. The mother of #27
Isabella Etendard is better left uncertain. According to the
19th-century historian Camillo Minieri-Riccio, citing sources that have
not yet been published in *I registri della cancelleria angioina*, #54
Guglielmo's first wife was Giovanna di Ceccano, by whom he had Isabella,
and his second was Giovanna de Cavignano, signora of Calvi, who survived
him. It would be odd if he also had another wife of the same name, an
Aquino niece of the famous theologian or possibly a sister of hers named
Isabella, who left no extant record.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 25-Jun-20 9:07 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:

> The succession of Guillaumes in the line is not certain, and there may
> have been another namesake between the elder and younger men above. #246
> Petronilla of Mesnil-Renard may have been the wife of a middle Guillaume
> rather than the second wife of the elder

Apologies for my typo giving an even number to a female in the ancestor
table: this should be #247 Petronilla.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 08-Jun-20 1:46 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote, in the thread https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/dYfb_RFI_4I/vMGLyyfhAQAJ on SGM:
> ...
>> Given the vast array, as Bronwen put it very well, of Jacquetta's
>> European ancestors, it seems a bit rum to me that questions would not be
>> raised about them more frequently here if even a few of her US
>> descendants were present in the newsgroup.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Peter, my main source of information about the ancestors of Jacquetta of Luxembourg is the information in Leo's database. Many of the pages were last updated about 20 years ago. I would be very pleased if you and others knowledgeable in this area would take a look at the ancestors of Jacquetta in Leo's database and share your comments, sources, additions, and any corrections.
> Here is the link to Leo's page for Jacquetta, https://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00015403&tree=LEO
>

#90 Giovanni Clignetti (or Jean Clignet) of Caiazzo was the son of
[#180, not entered in Genealogics] Guillaume Clignet, from Provence, who
received the lordship of Caiazzo from Charles I on 26 September 1269.
Giovanni, also known as Gianotto, notified the Angevin court of his
father's death between 5 September 1277 & 29 August 1278. He must have
been young at the time, since he was not knighted until 15 August 1281.
His mother [#181] is unknown, as recorded in Genealogics.

There has been confusion about his marriage/s, variously attributed, but
it appears that #91 Margherita del Balzo (Marguerite, daughter of
Guillaume I Etendard's daughter #123 Eustachie, aka Tassia, by #122
Raimond de Baux) is correct. She reportedly survived him and married
secondly Egidio de Plama, but I haven't seen a medieval source for this.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 1:59:52 AM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> #90 Giovanni Clignetti (or Jean Clignet) of Caiazzo was the son of
> [#180, not entered in Genealogics] Guillaume Clignet, from Provence, who
> received the lordship of Caiazzo from Charles I on 26 September 1269.
> Giovanni, also known as Gianotto, notified the Angevin court of his
> father's death between 5 September 1277 & 29 August 1278. He must have
> been young at the time, since he was not knighted until 15 August 1281.
> His mother [#181] is unknown, as recorded in Genealogics.
>
> There has been confusion about his marriage/s, variously attributed, but
> it appears that #91 Margherita del Balzo (Marguerite, daughter of
> Guillaume I Etendard's daughter #123 Eustachie, aka Tassia, by #122
> Raimond de Baux) is correct. She reportedly survived him and married
> secondly Egidio de Plama, but I haven't seen a medieval source for this.
>
> Peter Stewart

Peter, thank you very much for carefully reviewing the ancestry of Jacquetta of Luxembourg as posted on Leo's website and sharing your knowledge with the group. I haven't had time yet to review and digest all of the information you have posted so far, but I definitely plan to so so. I very much appreciate your posts.

[Peter Stewart]

Thanks Jan - I have to admit my puff is running low, and I may leave it
for a while before going on.

Jacquetta's ancestors weren't considerate enough to intermarry more than
allowed, so there are a bewildering lot of them in Genealogics to look
over. Families from the Angevin Sicilian kingdom are especially slow
going, with 50 volumes of reconstructed chancellery registers published
so far and no general index yet.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 11:49:09 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
...

> Thanks Jan - I have to admit my puff is running low, and I may leave it
> for a while before going on.
>
> Jacquetta's ancestors weren't considerate enough to intermarry more than
> allowed, so there are a bewildering lot of them in Genealogics to look
> over. Families from the Angevin Sicilian kingdom are especially slow
> going, with 50 volumes of reconstructed chancellery registers published
> so far and no general index yet.
>
> Peter Stewart

Leo's website indicates that Siegfried of Luxembourg (d. 998, 12th great grandfather of Jacquetta) was the son of Kunigunde (granddaughter of Louis the Stammerer) by Kunigunde's first husband Wigerich, but table 106 in ES Loringhoven vol. 3 (1964) indicates that the father of Siegfried was Kundigunde's second husband Richwin of Verdun.
Leo cites "Caroli Magni Progenies, Neustadt an der Aisch, 1977, Rösch, Siegfried. 141." What is the evidence?
(My computer indicates that Siegfried is Jacquetta's ancestor number 16464.)

[Paulo Ricardo Canedo]

Stewart Baldwin discusses this in https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/kunig000.htm. He concludes that it's very likely that Siegfried's father was Wigerich.

[Jan Wolfe]

Thanks, Paulo. The discussion of this question by Stewart Baldwin is very thoughtful and exhaustive.

Here is a link to a snippet view of Caroli Magni Progenies, https://books.google.com/books?id=Ec0KAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Widricus+AND+Kunegund.

I wonder if the more recent editions of ES agree that Wigerich was the more likely father.

[Peter Stewart]

In ESnF vol. 6 (1978) table 127 Schwennicke placed Siegfried
unequivocally as the youngest son of Wigerich and Kunigunde.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

Thanks, Peter. Which husband of Kunigunde is shown as the father of Giselbert in ESnf vol. 6 (1978)?

[Peter Stewart]

All of Kunigunde's offspring are shown as fathered by Wigerich.
Gislebert is placed after Adalbero bishop of Metz and Gozelin (i.e. as
the third son), followed by Sigebert whose existence (as distinct from
Siegfried) has been doubted, then Friedrich of Upper Lorraine, a
daughter Liutgard and finally Siegfried.

The references cited for the table are:

Heinz Renn, *Das erste Luxemburger Grafenhaus (963-1136)* (1941)

and

Michel Parisse, *La noblesse lorraine, XIe-XIIIe siècles*, 2 vols (1976)

There have been a lot of studies since, and you will find useful
references for Siegfried in Pit Péporté's *Constructing the Middle Ages:
Historiography, Collective Memory and Nation-Building in Luxembourg*
(2011) here
https://epdf.pub/constructing-the-middle-ages-historiography-collective-memory-and-nation-buildin.html.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

Vol 6 (1978) of ESNF was replaced by vol. 1.2 (1999). The family in question appears on table 202 in the new volume. In the revised version, Siegfried is connected to the other siblings by a dotted line, indicating that Schwennicke was uncertain about the parentage of Siegfried. But it's not possible to determine from the table what the reason for the uncertainty was. It could well be that Schwennicke was aware of the theory that the father of Siegfried was Kundigunde's second husband Richwin of Verdun, as indicated in ES 3:106 and mentioned earlier in this thread.

In the revised version the order of the children of Wigerich and Kunigunde (setting aside Siegfried) is different than as shown in ESNF 6:127. The order is: Adalbero, Gozelin, Luitgarde, Friedrich, Giselbert, Sigebert.

The list of sources is notably longer than the two sources mentioned by Peter, and those two sources are now placed at the bottom of the list - perhaps (or not) indicating they are less important than the newer ones added above them. I can't easily or reliably transcribe the new list of sources, but if anyone is interested, send me a note off-group with your email address and I can scan and email you a copy of the list.