Thomas Noel of Hawstead, Suffolk, ff 1154
mj...@btinternet.com
family of Hawstead, Woolthorpe etc.
According to Cullum's "History and Antiquities of Hawsted", he received
the advowson of the church at Hawstead from the Abbey of Bury St
Edmunds in 1 Henry II (it subsequently descended to the FitzEustaces;
Cullum says Thomas Noel's daughter Joan married Thomas Fitz Eustace in
circa 6 Henry II).
Thomas Noel is said to have held lands in Dickleburgh, Norfolk, of the
Abbey, and to have confirmed to him "all that socage which William son
of Ailbold, and Walter son of the said William and uncle of Thomas,
held in Hawsted [and] Effelde, and land in Bury St Edmunds".
Earlier, Abbot Anselm (1119-1148) had granted (or confirmed) lands at
Hawstead to "William son of Aildoldus and Robert his son and heir".
According to Domesday, two carucutes of land were held of the Abbey at
Hawstead by "Albold and Peter", clerics. It is very tempting to equate
this Ailbold with the father of William. This would produce the
following stemma:
1. Albold, a cleric, held lands at Hawstead of the Abbey of Bury St
Edmunds, 1086; issue:
2. William, held land of the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds at Hawstead;
issue:
3a. Robert, heir apparent, ovp
3b. Walter, younger son but heir to his father in lands at Hawstead,
osp
3c. (child); issue:
4. Thomas Noel, held lands of the Abbey of Bury St Edmunds and the
advowson of Hawstead, 1154; issue:
5. (daughter) married circa 1160 Thomas Fitz Eustace Fitz Stephen,
living 1219.
I note that one Albold was Abbot of Bury St Edmunds from 1114 to 1119;
according to VCH Suffolk, he was formerly Prior of Meaux
(NB Bury St Edmunds and Hawstead were within the Honour of Eye, which
was held by Stephen of Blois - King from 1132; his son and heir
Eustace died at Bury in 1153 - see my post on the possibility that
Thomas Fitz Eustace Fitz Stephen was a son of this Eustace).
MA-R
mard...@yahoo.com
Occurs Domesday Suffolk as a tenant of Bury St. Edmunds. Father of
William fitz Albold (q.v.), who occurs in Bury charters of the early
twelfth century, and grandfather of Robert Noel, tenant of the
mid-twelfth century (Kalendar of Abbot Samson, pp. 116-7).
DD p 849 under "Filii Alboldi, Robert Filius Willelmi":
Attested Bury charters of c. 1120-50, often with his father William
fitz Albold. Father of Walter.
DD p 862 under "Filius Alboldi, Willelm":
Occurs as witness to charters of the abbots of Bury St Edmunds c.
1114-48. Son of Abbot Baldwin's Domesday tenant Albold 'clericus'
(q.v.). Father of Alice, wife of Robert Noel, and Walter. Robert's
son Thomas Noel held the land of Albold clericus at Halstead in 1182
(Kalendar of Abbot Samson, pp. 31, 116-7).
Mardi
mj...@btinternet.com
mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
Thank you Mardi - so Robert did succeed his father William, and Walter
was his son (not brother). Good to fill in the Noel details too.
Best wishes, Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
DD Corrections?
Actually, DD appears to contradict itself here, calling both Robert
fil. William and William fil. Albold the father of Walter - unless
there were two Walters, uncle and nephew. According to Cullum, William
was father of (a) Robert (b) Walter and (c) (Alice, wife of Robert
Noel), the mother of Thomas Noel. Similarly, the reference under
Albold should be that he was Robert Noel's grandfather-in-law, not
grandfather.
MA-R
mard...@yahoo.com
is connected to the Noels of Ellenhall and Raunton (Ronton, Ranton),
Staffs. In Staffs. Hist. Colls. V 1 pp 383-3 (by Canon Bridgeman, I
believe) is a large footnote regarding the manor of Raunton. "It
did not come, however, as Erdeswick [Erdeswick's Survey of
Staffordshire, edition of 1844, p 135] and others have asserted, by the
marriage of William Dunston with Joan daughter and coheiress of Thomas
Noell, for the said Joan had for her only husband Roger [sic] fitz
Eustace fitz Stephen, and her share of the Noell inheritance was
transmitted to her issue by him." Raunton went to the Harcourts as
a result of the marriage of Alice Noel to William Harcourt.
I find no mention of any specific relationship or of what properties
Joan Noel had as her inheritance, but I suspect that she is the same as
the Joan we have married to Thomas fitz Eustace fitz Stephen.
Mardi
mj...@btinternet.com
mard...@yahoo.com
The Noel pedigree should be as follows, according to the article in
Staffs. Hist. Soc v. 1 p 384 and (1914) p 95.
1. Robert filius Noel, founder of the priory of Raunton, Staffs
[Monasticon Anglicanum v 6 p 257-9]
+ Alice
2. Adeliza Noel
+ William de Duston, of Duston and Weekly, Northants
3. William de Duston d.s.p. 1231
3. Isabel de Duston
+Walter de Grey
3. Joan de Duston
+ Mauger le Vavasor
3. Rose de Duston, who inherited all of the Staffs. estate
+ Sir John D'Oyly
2. Philip, of Hilcot, Staffs
2. Thomas, Lord of Ellenhall, Staffs; patron of Raunton priory
+ Margaret le Strange
3. Alice Noel
+ William Harcourt
3. Joan Noel
+ Roger (or Thomas?) fitz Eustace fitz Stephen
Many secondary sources show that Thomas' dau. Joan m. William de
Duston, an error perpetrated by Chetwynd and based on the fact that
William de Duston was Lord of Raunton. He actually held that property
as a feoffee of Thomas Noel, and his successors held of the Harcourts
in the same manner. William de Duston also held lands in Shropshire as
a feofee of Thomas Noel.
I have no primary documentation at hand, but we may derive some clues
from Eyton's Ant. Shropsh. v. iii, p. 136, and vol. viii, p 208. I
don't have access to these volumes.
Mardi
mj...@btinternet.com
mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
Once again, I take my hat of to you, Mardi.
I think we can safely conclude from primary evidence that it was Thomas
(rather than Roger) Fitz Eustace who was connected with Thomas Noel, as
the Lincolnshire Pipe Roll of 3 Henry III refers to "Thomas f.
Eustachii... osturum pro Thoma Noel" (i.e. tenure by service of
providing a goshawk, if I am reading this correctly)
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
> The Noel pedigree should be as follows, according to the article in
> Staffs. Hist. Soc v. 1 p 384 and (1914) p 95.
>
> 1. Robert filius Noel, founder of the priory of Raunton, Staffs
> [Monasticon Anglicanum v 6 p 257-9]
> + Alice
> 2. Adeliza Noel
> + William de Duston, of Duston and Weekly, Northants
> 3. William de Duston d.s.p. 1231
> 3. Isabel de Duston
> +Walter de Grey
> 3. Joan de Duston
> + Mauger le Vavasor
> 3. Rose de Duston, who inherited all of the Staffs. estate
> + Sir John D'Oyly
> 2. Philip, of Hilcot, Staffs
> 2. Thomas, Lord of Ellenhall, Staffs; patron of Raunton priory
> + Margaret le Strange
> 3. Alice Noel
> + William Harcourt
> 3. Joan Noel
> + Roger (or Thomas?) fitz Eustace fitz Stephen
Burke's Peerage, sub Gainsborough, perpetuates the misplacement of the
Dunston marriage:
1. Robert Fitz Noel, feudal Lord of Ellenhall; granted temp Henry I the
major part of Gainsborough, Warwicks, by the Prior of Coventry; father
of:
2a. Sir Thomas Noel, Sheriff of Staffs for 7 years temp Henry II, also
in 1189; married Margaret, daughter of Guy le Strange (see Viscountcy
of St St Davids), and had two daughters: (a) Alice, married Sir William
de Harcourt (see Barony of Vernon) and had Ellenhall and other estates
as her share of her father's property, and (b) Jean (sic), "married
William de Dunston and had for her share Raunton near Ellenhall, the
priory of which her grandfather had founded temp Henry II.
2b. Philip Noel, of Hilcote; ancestors of the Earls of Gainsborough.
Under St Davids, Burke's states that Guy le Strange was granted land at
Alveley, Shropshire, and was Sheriff of that county in 1159-1160; he
was a son of Roald le Strange, who married the heiress of the de
Hunstantons.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
> mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
>
> > The Noel pedigree should be as follows, according to the article in
> > Staffs. Hist. Soc v. 1 p 384 and (1914) p 95.
> >
> > 1. Robert filius Noel, founder of the priory of Raunton, Staffs
> > [Monasticon Anglicanum v 6 p 257-9]
> > + Alice
> > 2. Adeliza Noel
> > + William de Duston, of Duston and Weekly, Northants
> > 3. William de Duston d.s.p. 1231
> > 3. Isabel de Duston
> > +Walter de Grey
> > 3. Joan de Duston
> > + Mauger le Vavasor
> > 3. Rose de Duston, who inherited all of the Staffs. estate
> > + Sir John D'Oyly
> > 2. Philip, of Hilcot, Staffs
> > 2. Thomas, Lord of Ellenhall, Staffs; patron of Raunton priory
> > + Margaret le Strange
> > 3. Alice Noel
> > + William Harcourt
> > 3. Joan Noel
> > + Roger (or Thomas?) fitz Eustace fitz Stephen
Some further details here:
http://www.broughfamily.org/history/broughs_1055-1510_ad.html
Quoting the work of David Bethell:
Robert de Stafford or his immediate successors granted a large area of
land from their Staffordshire estates to the Noel family. By the 15th
century the acquisition had been romanticized a little, as described in
the cartulary of Ranton priory (2):
First of all, a man called Noel, with Celestria his wife, came in the
army of William the Bastard (the Conqueror) into England, and had the
said manor of Elinhale with its parts by the grant of the said William
the Bastard. From the said Noel descended the right and inheritance to
a certain Robert Noel his son and heir, who married a certain Alice,
and founded the Priory of Ranton while his mother Celestria was still
living.
The Augustinian priory of St. Mary des Essarz at Ranton was founded by
Robert fitz Noel about 1150, and received several further bequests from
the Noel family (v.inf.). Noel, at the head of the line, was not in
fact contemporary with William the Conqueror. His wife Celestria is
known to have been a daughter of Robert de Limesi, who succeeded Peter
as Bishop of Chester c.1088, and died in 1117 (3)
The large central English diocese of Lichfield, including Cheshire,
Derbyshire, northern Warwickshire, northern Shropshire, southern
Lancashire and Staffordshire, had three seats, at Chester, Lichfield,
and Coventry. The see was moved to Chester from Lichfield in 1075 by
Bishop Peter. Robert de Limesi his successor removed it to Coventry "in
order to possess himself of the riches of the monastery of Coventry,
which had been so amply endowed by earl Leofric, that it was looked
upon to be the most wealthy in the land", but Robert continued to style
himself Bishop of Chester (4).
Robert de Limesi used his position as bishop to expropriate extensive
lands in Staffordshire belonging to the diocese for his daughter
Celestria and her husband Noel. By this means the Noel family acquired
Ellenhall, Seighford, Clanford, Bridgeford, Podmore and Milnmease, as
well as Granborough in Warwickshire. Ranton Priory was a little more
than a mile north of Brough; Ellenhall lies immediately to the north of
Ranton.
Although, prior to the Reformation, English bishops were normally
strictly celibate, it was neither illegal nor uncommon for bishops in
the 12th century to marry and have children, and it may be assumed that
there were other descendants of Robert de Limesi. Philip fitz Bishop,
who was at Brough by 1199 (v.inf.), and is thought to have been a
cousin of Thomas Noel (son of Robert fitz Noel), was probably a
grandson of Robert. Robert is assumed to have been a son or brother of
Ralph de Limesi, ancestor of the Barons Odingselles. Ralph was
described as a son of the sister (unspecified) of William the
Conqueror; he "enjoyed the lands of Christiana, one of the sisters of
Edgar Atheling, by marriage (as some affirm, and according to others by
gift of the Conqueror), among which was Ulverly in the county of
Warwick, which he made his principal seat." (5). This would make Robert
de Limesi, Bishop of Chester, a grandson or greatgrandson on the
material side of Robert Duke of Normandy. If Ralph de Limesi was
husband of Christiana the legitimate title to the English throne would
have passed through Ralph's eldest descendants.
The Brough property was acquired by the Noel family with Ranton in
about 1145, when this grant was made by Nicholas de Stafford to Noel
(husband of Colestria) (6):
Because in all matters between those greater of birth and those lesser,
and between the powerful and the powerless, testimonies to deeds have
been found necessary to free them from litigation, therefore let it be
known to both the greater and lesser men of the whole of the honour of
Stafford and may it shine forth in their memories, that Nicholas de
Stafford, when still a young man, granted to Noel by right of
inheritance, and similarly afterwards to Robert his son, the land of
Ronton and Cokeslone in fee, and by the service of half a manor, and of
half a knight, and at the service of lord Nicholas's own shield, and
free from all ward and upkeep of the Castle; Afterwards, morover, lord
Robert came by inheritance from his father successor to the honour of
Stafford by hereditary right, by the grace of God, and granted this
agreement which his father had granted to Noel and to Robert son of
Noel, that it should be known to all men, by his grace; and that the
said lord Robert after the death of his father has given to Robert son
of Noel land which is next to Gnowshale &c. These being witnesses,
Nicholas son of Nigel, Ralph son of Brian, &c.
Brough itself is first specified in the confirmation grant by Robert de
Stafford to Thomas, Noel's grandson, about 1182 (7):
Robert de Stadford to Thomas Noel (grant of) the land of Ranton and of
Cokeslaine and the land of Burgh which is next to Gnoweshale (Gnosall),
by the service of half a manor, that is of half a knight to the service
of my own shield; all this for the service of his ancestors and for
homage, and money, to wit 30 marks (£20) which Noel grandfather of
Thomas gave to lord Nicholas my father, I grant. These being witnesses,
Hervey de Stretton, Robert de Brinton, Roger son of Henry, Philip
Holegate, Robert son of Pagan, Ivo de Mutton, Adam de Staundon, Adam de
Alith(l)egh (Audley).
The Noel pedigrees (8) indicate that Robert fitz Noel was married to
Alice daughter of Hugh Montfort, and Thomas Noel his son was married to
Margaret Strange. Thomas had a brother Phillip...to whom Thomas his
brother granted lands in Cestiford (9), but we know that he was not
Philip fitz Bishop, since both on occasion witnessed the same deeds
(v.inf.) (10). When Thomas Noel died he left two daughters, of whom
one, Alice Har(e)court, inherited the greater part of his estates.
Thomas Noel granted all or part of the Brough estate to Philip fitz
Bishop c.1190 (11):
May men present and future know that I T.Noel have given and granted
and by this my present deed confirmed to Philip fitz Bishop for his
service and homage my lands from the assarts of Rouel in Ronton; that
land, to wit, which Misant the priest held, and that land which Alfwin
the Palmer held, and all the land which Lovenad held from me, and that
land which Siward held, and that land which Reginald Perler held
together with that Reginald and with all his issue, and that land which
Osbert fitz Ailric held; and a meadow which Waren the Forester held, by
that houndary which Warin himself had against Benet. Moreover, I grant
to him ti farm a certain marsh at Holebroc next to the land of Robert
Harding, to make into a fishpond. I give and grant all these
aformentioned lands according to the bounds by which the aforesaid men
held them from me in Ronton, to him and his heirs, to hold from me and
my heirs in fee and inheritance freely quietly wholly and honourably,
with all liberties and with pannages for his feed, with all other
appurtenances belonging to the same lands and all easements and
commons, in wood, in plain, in meadows and fisheries, in ways and
paths, in waters and in mills, Rendering to me and my heirs at
Michaelmas by my bailiff at Ronton sixpence for all service due to me
or to my heirs. And because I wish this gift and grant to be agreed and
sure and unharmed to him and his heirs from me and my heirs, I confirm
it by the affixing of my seal to this present deed, these being
witnesses: Philip Noel, Thomas fitz Roger, Jordan de Chnitteleia,
Thomas de Kerseuell, Ralph de Blore, Ralph Grim, Roger de Wareine,
Walter Durant, Geoffrey de Meis, Hamon de Ondesaker, Roger Daraz,
Geoffrey fitz William and many others.
Further land, in this lost hamlet of Aluredston, was granted to Philip
by Thomas son of Roger de Haughton (12):
Know present and future that I Thomas son of Roger de Halthtona have
given to Philip fitz Bishop a half virgate of land in Aluredestona &c
Witnesses Thomas Noel, Philip Noel, Jordan de Knehteleia, Roger his
brother, William de Dustona, and many others.
Philip also appears as witness to two undated grants re Ranton Priory
by Thomas Noel at this period (13):
Thomas Noel gave &c to William the Baker a moiety of the meadow to Mees
mill. Witnesses, Philip fitz Bishop, Philip Noel, and many others.
I Thomas Noel gave &c (to Ronton Priory) all my land of Claneford, and
all the land which Nicholas son of Edric son of Luveric held in Ronton.
Witnesses, Thomas de Kersewelle, Philip fitz Bishop, Philip Noel, Simon
Steward, William de Hecstall
2. Ranton Cartulary printed Staffordshire Historical Collections (SHC):
f.12
3. History and Antiquities of Glastonbury ed Thomas Hearne, 1722;
apprndix.
4. v. History of Cheshire, George Ormerod, i 93.
5. Baronia Anglica Concentrata Sir Thomas Banks pp.108-9
6. British Museum, Huntbache MS ii f.166
7. id. f.54
8. e.g. Visitation of Staffordshire 1583, e.g. B.M. Harley 1570, 1415,
6128; printed S.H.C. iii. "Ex Chartis Philippi Noel de Hilcott in Com.
Staff."
9. History of Pirehill Hundred, Walter Chetwynd: peidgree of Noel;
pr.S.H.C.
10. e.g. Ranton Cartulary (2).
11. Northamptonshire Record Office, Fawsley li.
12. ib. Finch Hatton 123 (FH 123(), p.284.
13. (2) f.3 and f.5
mard...@yahoo.com
Mardi
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Presumably Roald le Strange is the same chap as the one in CP XII(1),
pp. 347-8?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
mj...@btinternet.com
Tim Powys-Lybbe schrieb:
> Presumably Roald le Strange is the same chap as the one in CP XII(1),
> pp. 347-8?
Sorry Tim - I don't have CP here; he is otherwise referred to as
Roland, married Maud of Hunstanton, and stands at the head of the
pedigree of Strange of Knokyn, Blackmere etc.
MA-R
mard...@yahoo.com
Noel, Alicia uxor Roberti
Alice wife of Robert Noel is named in the Ronton cartulary6. It is
clear from a charter of Thomas Noel, her son, that her father was
William son of Albold, a tenant of the abey of Bury St. Sdumnds, since
William's won Walter was 'avunculus' -- maternal uncle -- to Thomas
(Kalendar of Abbot Samson of Bury, pp 116-7). See also Hatton's Book
of Seals, 43.
The write-up on Thomas Noel states, in part:
By his wife Margaret, daughter of Guy Lestrange, he left two daughters,
Alice wife of William de Harcourt, and Joan, wife first of Thomas fitz
Eustache and secondly of Alexander Bacun.
mard...@yahoo.com
I meant DD - Domesday Descendants
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Thanks. That sounds like he is exactly the same chap as in the 8 lines
in CP. Plus he gets a mention in Radulf filius Herluin's, his
father-in-law, article in DD, p. 340.
mj...@btinternet.com
mard...@yahoo.com schrieb:
Thanks, Mardi.
Going back to my question-mark about the chronology, I think the weak
link has to be Cullum's statement (which is not referenced) that Thomas
f Eustace married Joan Noel circa 6 Henry II (i.e. 1160); he appears to
have survived until circa 1223, and Thomas Noel was active for another
30 years after that date (I have seen it alleged that his wife Margaret
died in 1222). It seems to me that either we are dealing with a
childhood marriage settlement, or 6 Henry II is incorrect.
MA-R