C.P. Addition/Correction: Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, and his 1st wife, Joan de Carew
Douglas Richardson
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 361–362 (sub Bryan) has
a good account of the history of Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, died
1390.
Regarding his birth date, Complete Peerage gives the following
information:
"[He] succeeded his father in 1349, being then 30 years old and
more...."
Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 118 (sub Bryan), however, corrects the
age of 30 to read 40. No documentation is provided for either
statement in Complete Peerage 2 or 14.
Chris Phillips notes that Sir Guy de Bryan's father's inquisition post
mortem, dated Saturday after the Translation of St Thomas the Martyr
[11 July] 1349, gives his age as 30 years and more, not 40 [Calendar
of Inquisitions post mortem, vol. 9, no 333 (p. 282)]. [Reference:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/bryan.shtml].
Regardless, neither C.P. 2 or C.P. 14 or Chris Phillips have the
correct estimated date of Sir Guy de Bryan's birth.
Rather, Sir N. Harris Nicolas indicates he was actually born about
1311, or slightly before. In his well written and documented account
of Lord Bryan published in his book, Controversy between Sir Richard
Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, Sir N. Harris Nicolas presented the
following information:
"He [Guy de Bryan] succeeded his father in June 1349; and it was found
by the inquisition taken on his [father's] decease that he was then
thirty years of age and upwards, which would fix his the date of his
birth to about the year 1319; but it is certain that he was born long
before that time; and though it is stated in his deposition in 1386
that he was then of the age of sixty and upwards, he was in fact much
nearer eighty. This is evident from two circumstances: he said that
he was first armed at Stannow Park soon after the Coronation of Edward
the Third, namely, about April 1327; so that, allowing him to have
been only sixteen, his birth would have occurred in 1311. He was at
that time very nearly, if not quite, of full age: for before the 29th
July 1330 the King in person settled a dispute which had for some time
existed between the Deponent and his father, Sir Guy Bryan, senior,
relative to the Barony and Castle of Walwayn in Pembrokeshire. From
the record of the proceedings on the occasion, it appears that Sir Guy
the father was then insane, that his wife Welthiane was a party to the
agreement, that Guy the son was one of the King's valets and of full
age, that he had two sisters then unmarried, and the Dame Joan Carew
was bound in two hundred pounds to Sir Guy the elder, for the marriage
of his said son; and it was determined that the latter should have
possession of the Barony and Castle Walwayn, to hold to him and his
heirs in tail, upon condition that he should marry his two sisters out
of the profits of those lands." END OF QUOTE [Reference: Nicolas,
Controversy between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor, 2
(1832): 245–246 (biog. of Sir Guy Bryan)]. The above material may be
viewed at the following weblink:
Regarding the identity of Sir Guy de Bryan's first wife, Complete
Peerage, 2 (1912): 361–362 (sub Bryan) states the following:
"He appears to have married, 1stly, before 1343/4, Ann, or Alice,
daughter and heiress of William Holway, of Holway, Devon, but she was
possibly his father's wife." END OF QUOTE.
In a footnote d on the same page, it is stated that "Guy de Brian,
King's Yeoman (valettus), and Alice his wife, were living 27 Jan.
1343/4. (Patent Roll). V.G." END OF QUOTE.
This information was evidently supplied by Vicary Gibbs (V.G.). Yet,
when checking the indexes of the Patent Rolls for the date 1343 or
1344, the indexes show no entry for Alice, wife of Guy de Brian, for
these dates.
In fact, without explanation, Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 118 (sub
Bryan) completely dismisses Ann or Alice Holway as the first wife of
Guy de Bryan, Lord Bryan. Instead, it states Guy de Bryan "married
1stly, Joan (living 12 April 1348), said to be daughter of Sir John de
Carreu, of Carew, co. Pembroke."
No direct documentation is provided for Sir Guy de Bryan's first wife
being named Joan, or that she was said to be the daughter of Sir John
de Carreu. However, C.P. 14 does indicate that several sources should
be added for the Bryan account, among them Cal. Papal Letters, vol. 3,
p. 272.
Checking that reference, one finds that on 2 Id. Apr. [12 April] 1348
"Guy de Briane, knight, lord of Castle Walweyn, and Joan his wife"
received an indult to have a portable altar. This item may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=klNg4OkeU0oC&pg=PA45&dq=%22Guy+de+Briane,+knight%22#PPA272,M1
So, we may be certain that Sir Guy de Bryan had a wife, Joan, living
12 April 1348. So far, so good.
Regarding her parentage, Sir N. Harris Nicolas has the following to
say:
"Most pedigrees state that [Sir Guy de Bryan] the Deponent 's mother
was Joan daughter of Sir John de Carew of Carew Castle in
Pembrokeshire; but, from Lady Carew's having bought the Deponent's
marriage, it is most probable that it was he, instead of his father,
who married Joan Carew. The baptismal name of the mother, or mother-
in-law [recte step-mother], was Welthiane."
The above information may be found at the following weblink:
So, Nicolas supposes that it was Sir Guy de Bryan (died 1390) who
married Joan, daughter of Sir John de Carew, not his father. This
supposition is certainly supported by the entry cited above in the
Papal Letters which proves that Sir Guy de Bryan had a wife named
Joan. And, as Nicolas notes, Lady Joan de Carew had the marriage of
Sir Guy de Bryan (died 1390) in or before 1330.
As for other evidence suppporting the Bryan-Carew marriage, I note
that in 1330, the Patent Rolls show that protection was granted to
several individuals for the term of one year, among them being:
Joan late the wife of John de Carreu.
Guy de Brian, knight.
Gilbert Talebot.
John de Carreu.
So, we find Sir Guy de Bryan (presumably the son, as the father was
then insane) associated with Joan, widow of John de Carew, in this
record. If Nicolas is correct, then Joan widow of John de Carew
would presumably be Sir Guy de Bryan's mother-in-law. This is a
reasonable assumption.
As for other dealings of Sir Guy de Bryan and Lady Joan de Carew, I
find that in 1341 the king made the following grant:
"Grant to Guy de Bryan, king's yeoman, that the lands in" Clifton,
Dartmouth and Hardness [Devon] which Joan late the wife of John de
Carreu holds for life of the king's grant, and which are extended at
7l. 10s. 4d. yearly, as appears by inquisitions taken by John de
Caneford, escheator in the counties of Somerset, Dorset, Devon and
Cornwall, shall remain to him in fee." Reference: Calendar of Patent
Rolls, C.P.R. 1340–1343 (1900): 196].
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v5/body/Edward3vol5page0196.pdf
Report & Trans. Devonshire Assoc. 3rd ser. 3 (1911): 132 gives two
further records regarding the Carew-Bryan lands in the Borough of
Clifton, Dartmouth and Hardness, Devon:
14 Feb. 1341. Deed poll of Joan Carrew appointed John Jose and others
to attorn to Guy de Brian.
12 July 1342. Joan Carrew released her life Estate to Guy de Brian.
The above two items may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2cIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA132&dq=1342+Bryan+Hardness#PPA132,M1
Thus, by 12 July 1342, Sir Guy de Bryan had acquired the life estate
and the reversion of the lands of Lady Joan de Carew in the borough of
Clifton, Dartmouth, and Hardness, Devon.
In 1343 Sir Guy de Bryan was dealing with the Burgesss of the borough
of Clifton, Dartmouth and Hardness regarding his part of the lordship,
"which Joan de Carreu held for life." Reference: Cal. Patent Rolls,
1343-1345 (1902): 48].
This item may be viewed at at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v6/body/Edward3vol6page0048.pdf
Sir Guy de Bryan was in possession of his lands in borough of Clifton,
Dartmouth and Hardness, Devon as late as 1376-1377 [50 Edward III],
when he issued a charter as lord of that place [see Fifth Report Hist.
MSS. Comm. (1876): 603].
I haven't traced this land holding further than that date.
In summary, it appears that Sir Guy de Bryan was born say 1309, he
being in arms in 1327 and stated to be of age in 1330. His first
wife, Joan, was living 12 April 1348. It is Nicolas' supposition and
my own that Joan was the daughter of John de Carew, Knt., of Carew,
Pembrokeshire, by his wife, Joan. As indicated above, Guy de Bryan's
marriage was held by Lady Joan de Carew, and he occurs occurs together
with Lady Carew in records in 1330, 1341, and 1342. On the last date,
Lady Joan de Carew released her life estate to her land holdings at
Clifton, Dartmouth and Hardness, Devon to him. Sir Guy de Bryan was
still in possession of this property as late as 1376-1377.
Sir Guy de Bryan and his first wife, Joan de Carew, were the parents
of at least two, possibly three daughters. There are living
descendants through their daughter, Elizabeth de Bryan, who married
Robert Fitz Payn (formerly de Grey), Knt., of Stogursey, Bridghampton,
Cheddon Fitzpaine, Rodway, etc., Somerset.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Sir Guy de Bryan and his first
wife, Joan de Carew, through their daughter, Elizabeth:
William Bladen, St. Leger Codd, Edward Digges, Warham Horsmanden, Anne
Mauleverer, George Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Patricia A. Junkin
Might you know why Guy de Briene (Bryan) had some estate in (Isle of)
Lunday in 1392.
Thank you in advance,
Pat
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Douglas Richardson
As I indicated in my former post, Sir N. Harris Nicolas in his his
book, Controversy between Sir Richard Scrope and Sir Robert Grosvenor,
2 (1832): pp. 245-246, refers to a settlement 29 July 1330 regarding a
dispute between Sir Guy de Bryan and his father, Sir Guy Bryan,
senior, relative to the Barony and Castle of Walwayn in Pembrokeshire.
A full copy of this settlement in French is printed in Collectanea
Top. et Gen. 3 (1836): 250–251. It may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TCsEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA251&dq=Collectanea+Bryan+Carreu#PPA250,M1
The document confirms that Lady Joan de Carew owed 200 pounds in 1330
for the marriage of the younger Guy de Bryan, as stated by Nicolas.
As for Lady Joan de Carew, wife of Sir John de Carew, I find that she
is identified as the "daughter of Sir Gilbert Talbot" in a modern
pedigree of the Carew family found in Visitation of the County of
Cornwall, in the Year 1620 (1874): 30-32. According to this
pedigree, Joan Talbot was the second wife of John de Carew (died
1323/4), and the mother of one son, John de Carew. This pedigree may
be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=olRdciBEIEcC&pg=PA30&dq=John+Carreu+Joan&lr=
In my previous post, I stated that the Patent Rolls record that
several protections were granted in 1330 to various individuals for
the term of one year, among them being:
Joan late the wife of John de Carreu.
Guy de Brian, knight.
Gilbert Talebot.
John de Carreu.
The above record is found in Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1327–1330
(1891): 509, and may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v1/body/Edward3vol1page0509.pdf
The above individuals presumably would be Lady Joan de Carew, her son-
in-law, Guy de Bryan, Knt., her father, Gilbert Talbot, and her son,
John de Carew.
Assuming that the modern pedigree has correctly identified the father
of Lady Joan de Carew, she would doubtless be the daughter of Gilbert
Talbot, 1st Lord Talbot, by his wife, Anne le Boteler. An account of
Gilbert Talbot, 1st Lord Talbot, may be found in Complete Peerage, 12
(1) (1953): 610-612.
If these connections can be established, it would give Joan de Carew,
the first wife of Guy de Bryan, K.G., Lord Bryan, a descent from the
well known Isabel de Vermandois by way of her great-grandmother, Sarah
de Beauchamp, wife of Richard Talbot.
The Bryan-Carew-Talbot connection deserves further study.
Doug McDonald
> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
> World immigrants that descend from Sir Guy de Bryan and his first
> wife, Joan de Carew, through their daughter, Elizabeth:
>
> William Bladen, St. Leger Codd, Edward Digges, Warham Horsmanden, Anne
> Mauleverer, George Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall.
>
And William Ironmonger, and several of his relatives.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
Below are two petitions found in the National Archives catalogue which
pertain to John de Carew, younger son of John de Carew, lord of Carew,
Pembrokeshire, by his 2nd wife, Joan Talbot. The younger John de
Carew would be the brother of Joan de Carew, wife of Sir Guy Bryan,
K.G., Lord Bryan. The elder John de Carew had an older son, Nicholas
de Carew, by a previous marriage.
In the first petition dated c.1324, the younger John de Carew
complains that a certain Thomas de Carew had "bribed the escheator" to
get possession of the manor of Carew, Pembrokeshire.
In the second petition also dated c.1324, the explanation for Thomas
de Carew's occupation of Carew is fully revealed. Thomas de Carew
plainly indicates that John de Carew was half-brother of Nicholas de
Carew, which Nicholas was the son and heir of John de Carew, senior.
Being a half-brother, the younger John de Carew can not inherit from
Nicholas de Carew. Rather, Nicholas de Carew's heir was found to be
his uncle, Thomas de Carew, who has taken possession of both the
castle and manor of Carew, Pembrokshire and the manor of Moulsford,
Berkshire.
For further details on the fight over the Carew inheritance, see VCH
Berkshire at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=43253&strquery=Moulsford
The petitions below vividly illustrate how heirs of the half-blood
were excluded by law from their paternal inheritance in this time
period.
I should note that a Richard Talbot is mentioned in the 2nd petition
below. I presume he is the Richard Talbot who was the brother of Joan
Talbot, wife of John de Carew the elder. However, the abstract
doesn't discuss in what way he occurs in the petition.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Source: National Archives Catalogue (http://
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp)
SC 8/38/1863
Record Summary
Scope and content
Petitioners: John de Carreu (Carrew), son and heir of John de Carrew.
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Carew, Pembrokeshire, [Wales].
Other people mentioned: John de Carreu (Carrew), late father of the
petitioner; Aymer de Valence, Earl of Pembroke; Thomas de Carreu
(Carrew).
Nature of request: Carreu shows that the manor of Carew has ultimately
come into the hand of the king with the body of the petitioner where
it remained seised until Thomas Carreu bribed the escheator to remove
the king's hand wrongfully and without process to the loss of the king
and the disinheritance of the petitioner. He requests that the manor
be taken back into the hand of the king as entirely as the escheator
was seised.
Endorsement: Coram rege.Let this petition be ordered into Chancery,
and the chancellor with others of the council having called before
them in Chancery the parties and having heard their arguments and
viewed the inquisitions and the records concerning this business, they
should do justice.
Covering dates [c. 1324]
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before
FOI Act: 30 years
Former reference (Department) Parliamentary Petition 1385
Note The petition appears to date to the period c. 1324, Carreu's
father's lands being taken into the king's hand in June and July 1324,
and Carreu was still a ward in 1326 (CFR 1319-27, pp.288, 290, 300,
419).
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SC 8/38/1864
Record Summary
Scope and content
Petitioners: Thomas de Carru (Carrew).
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: Carew, Pembrokeshire, [Wales]; Moulsford, Berkshire.
Other people mentioned: Aymer de Valence, Earl of Pembroke; Nicholas
de Carru (Carrew), cousin of the petitioner; John [de Carru (Carrew)],
son of John de Carrew and half brother of Nicholas de Carrew; Hugh le
Despenser the son; Richard Talbot.
Nature of request: Carru shows that he was seised of the castle and
manor of Carew after the death of his cousin Nicholas whose heir he
is. He also holds the manor of Moulsford from the king in chief of the
same inheritance. He now finds that John de Carew has allowed the
lands to be taken into the king's hand by his minority. He states that
he was found by inquisition to be the next heir and entered the manor
of Moulsford. He requests that no inquisition should be taken
concerning his inheritance of which he seised, and that he should not
be summoned except by original writ to which he is able to answer
according to the law.
Endorsement: [None].
Covering dates [c. 1324]
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before
FOI Act: 30 years
Former reference (Department) Parliamentary Petition 1386
Note The petition appears to date to the period c. 1324, and is
probably the counter petition to SC 8/38/1863 (CFR 1319-27, pp.288,
290, 300, 419).
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
Douglas Richardson
In my post earlier today, I gave a list of 17th Century New World
immigrants that descend from Sir Guy de Bryan, K.G., and his first
wife, Joan de Carew. Martin Hollick kindly drew my attention to the
fact that the list I posted left out several immigrants. Below is an
amended list with additional immigrants. Thanks go to Martin for his
help.
Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
& Leonard Calvert, St.Leger Codd, Edward Digges, Henry Filmer, Henry
Fleete, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Anne Mauleverer, George
Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Rose Stoughton
I have no particulars regarding William Ironmonger. Perhaps Doug
Thompson can post William Ironmonger's line of descent from Sir Guy de
Bryan.
One other thing. In my earlier post, I stated that Guy de Bryan was
of age in 1330. The correct statement is that Mr. Nicolas deduced Guy
de Bryan was of full age from the 1330 document he cited. I believe
Nicolas is correct. If Guy de Bryan was not of full age in 1330, he
was surely close to it.
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
>
> Samuel Argall, Charles Barham, Joseph Bickley, William Bladen, Charles
> & Leonard Calvert, St.Leger Codd, Edward Digges, Henry Filmer, Henry
> Fleete, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Lovelace, Anne Mauleverer, George
> Reade, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Rose Stoughton
>
> I have no particulars regarding William Ironmonger. Perhaps Doug
> Thompson can post William Ironmonger's line of descent from Sir Guy de
> Bryan.
>
Guy de Briene (d 1390) m Joan de Carreu
Elizabeth de Briene m Sir Robert Grey Lord Fitzpayn
Elizabeth Fitzpayn (Grey) m Sir Richard Poynings 3rd Lord Poynings
Jane Poynings m Sir Ricard Camoys
MArgaret Camoys m Ralph Radmyll
Margaret Radmyll m Sir John Goring
John Goring m Joan Hewster
John Goring m Constance Dyke
Constance Goring m Sir John Kingsmill
Mary Kingsmell m Edward Goddard
Bridgett Goddard m William Corderoy
Bridget Corderoy m Samuel Ironmonger
William Ironmonger
Source: Paul C. Reed, American Genealogist July & Oct 1998
There are two royal lines in that paper, this is, I believe,
in a footnote on the first page of the second paper.
Doug McDonald