RD600 Ancestry of Edward Foulke (1651-1740/1) of Pennsylvania

[nathan...@gmail.com]

Attempts were made to verify the gateway lineage of Edward Foulke published in RD600.

Roberts presents six generations of ancestors preceding the American immigrant as follows (p. 394):

"10. Lowri ferch Elise (sister of David Llwyd ab Elise) = Rheinallt ap Gruffudd ap Rhys
11. Mary ferch Rheinallt = Robert ap Dafydd Llwyd
12. Thomas ap Robert = Catrin ferch Robert ap Gruffudd
13. Ieuan ap Thomas = Dorothea Evans
14. Thomas ap Ieuan = Catrin ferch William Dafydd
15. Foulke ap Thomas = Lowri ferch Edward ap Dafydd
16. Edward Foulke of Pa. = Ellen Hughes (Hugh or Pugh) of Pa., ARD, SETH"

Generation 1 is John "Lackland" King of England

Source for generations 13 to 16:
A. "Merion, pp. 80-81 (also with some errors), 94-95 (Foulke and Mrs. Evans)" = Thomas Allen Glenn, Merion in the Welsh Tract (Norristown, Penn., 1896). Here is the pedigree on pp. 94-95: https://archive.org/stream/cu31924010481723#page/n135/mode/2up

Here is another part of Glenn's narrative: Thomas Glenn, Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania (Oxford, 1911-1913), 149-150 https://books.google.com/books?id=aepTGZpT1FMC&pg=PA149

I was able to verify the immigrant's father, grandfather, and great-grandfather in parish registers and probate records (Generations 13 to 16). I could not find contemporary sources for Generations 11 or 12 that provide family linkages, so I would conclude the royal descent fails there unless someone can produce additional evidence to verify Glenn's pedigree, which RD600 relies upon.



EDWARD FOULKE (1651-1740/1)

Evidence of date of birth, parents, and ancestry:

In an 1897 English translation of a Welsh autobiography dated 1702/3, he stated: "I, Edward Foulke, was the son of Foulke, ap Thomas, ap Evan, ap Thomas, ap Robert, ap David Lloyd, ap David, ap Evan Vaughan (ap Evan), ap Griffith, ap Madoc, ap Ririd Flaidd, Lord of Penllyn, who dwelt at Rhiwaedog. My mother's name was Lowry, the daughter of Edward, ap David, ap Ellis, ap Robert, of the Parish of Llanvor in Merionethshire.

"I was born on the 13th of 5th month, 1651, and when arrived at mature age, I married Eleanor the daughter of Hugh, ap Cadwallader, ap Rhys, of the Parish of Spytu in Denbighshire; her mother's name was Gwen, the daughter of Ellis, ap William, ap Hugh, ap Thomas, ap David, ap Madoc, ap Evan, ap Cott, ap Griffith, ap Madoc, ap Einion, ap Meredith of Cai-Fadog; and she was born in the same parish and shire with her husband.

"I had, by my said wife, nine children, whose names are as follows: Thomas, Hugh, Cadwallader, and Evan; Grace, Gwen, Jane, Catherine, and Margaret. We lived at a place called Coed-y-foel, a beautiful farm, belonging to Roger Price esq., of Rhiwlas, Merionethshire, aforesaid. But in process of time, I had an inclination to remove with my family to the province of Pennsylvania; and in order thereto, we set out on the 3d day of the 2d month, A.D. 1698, and came in two days to Liverpool, where, with divers others who intended to go the voyage, we took shipping, the 17th of the same month, on board the Robert and Elizabeth, and the next day set sail for Ireland, where we arrived, and staid until the first of the 3d month, May, and then sailed again for Pennsylvania, and were about eleven weeks at sea. And the sore distemper of the bloody flux broke out in the vessel, of which died five and forty persons in our passage; the distemper was so mortal that two or three corpses were cast overboard every day while it lasted. But through favor and mercy of Divine Providence, I, with my wife and nine children, escaped that sore mortality, and arrived safe in Philadelphia, the 17th of the 5th month, July, where we were kindly received and hospitably entertained by our friends and old acquaintances." (Source: Howard M. Jenkins, Historical Collections Relating to Gwynedd, 2nd ed., 1897, http://www.gwyneddmeeting.org/history/jenkinschapter5.htm)

Summary: Edward Foulke was the son of Foulke ap Thomas by Lowry verch Edward. He was born 13 5mo. 1651. He married Eleanor ap Hugh. They lived "at a place called Coed-y-foel." He emigrated to Pennsylvania in 1698.

Comments: Coed-y-foel is a farm in Llandderfel Parish, Merionethshire. See http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~robbhaas/Foulke/Coed_y_Foel_Research.htm. See also: http://www.foulke.org/history/essays/coedyfoel.shtml. Parish registers survive for Llandderfel from 1597 forward. Findmypast has digitized and indexed them (thanks to Leslie Mahler, FASG, for that tip). It would be valuable to examine the original Welsh document to ensure it was translated correctly.

1. Search for Edward's baptism at Llandderfel - negative
2. Search for Edward's marriage at Llandderfel - negative. Need to search Quaker records.

Glenn published select Llandderfel parish register abstracts in the Literary Era 5 (1898): 218-220 https://books.google.com/books?id=qjHZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA218

FOULKE AP THOMAS (1623-bef. 1677)

1. Search for Foulke ap Thomas's baptism at Llanderfel (originally discovered by Thomas Glenn), the record was found:

"Fulco Thomas filius Thomae ap Eva[ni] Lloydd Baptizat[us] fuit Quarto die Aprilis dieq[ue] veneris 1623" http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f004394854%2f00282&parentid=gbprs%2fb%2f917113990%2f1&highlights=%22%22

2. Search for a will for Foulke ap Thomas in St Asaph Diocese using the index at the National Library of Wales website - negative
3. Search for a will for Foulke ap Thomas in PCC using index at The National Archives website - negative
4. Search for marriage of Foulke ap Thomas at Llandderfel - negative
5. Search for children's baptisms at Llandderfel, one found:

"Humfridus filius Fulconis Thomas ap Joan? Lloyd ex uxore sua Lowria Baptizatus tricesimo die Julii 1665" [only child of a Fulk and Lowry from 1635 to 1675] http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f004394854%2f00368&parentid=gbprs%2fb%2f917114552%2f1&highlights=%22%22

6. Search for burial of Lowry at Llandderfel (originally discovered by Glenn):
"Lowrea vch. Edward vidua et relicta fulconis Thomas nup[er] defuncti sepulta fuit 5to die July, A.D. 1677" [not found on findmypast]

7. Searches for a will for Lowry at St Asaph and PCC - negative

Foulke ap Thomas received a bequest in his grandfather's will (see below).

THOMAS AP EVAN LLOYD (?-1649)

1. Search for Thomas ap Evan Lloyd's baptism at Llandderfel - negative
2. Search for Thomas ap Evan Lloyd's marriage at Llandderfel - negative
3. Search for Thomas ap Evan Lloyd's burial at Llandderfel (originally discovered by Thomas Glenn), a likely record was found:

"1649 Thomas ab Evan Lloyd was buried 9ber 15th" http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4394854%2f00352&parentid=gbprs%2fd%2f899116953%2f1&highlights=%22%22

4. Search for will of Thomas ap Evan Lloyd in St Asaph Diocese using the index at the National Library of Wales website - negative
5. Search for will of Thomas ap Evan Lloyd in PCC using index at The National Archives website - negative
6. Search for administration of Thomas ap Evan Lloyd in PCC using printed index - negative

Thomas ap Evan Lloyd and several of his children received bequests in the will of Thomas's father (see below).

According to Glenn, this man was Sheriff of Merionethshire in 1623. In Sheriffs of England and Wales. Lists and Indexes PRO 9:260, we find "Merionethshire: appointed 7 Nov 1622 Thomas Lloyd of Naufreyr, esq." The next sheriff was appointed in 1627. Naufreyr seems to be a variant spelling of Nantfreyr or Nantffreiar, which at that time was a township partially within the boundaries of Llandderfel Parish, see D.R. Thomas, Esgobaeth Llanelwy: A History of the Diocese of St. Asaph (London, 1870), 697 https://books.google.com/books?id=TU0LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA697

But, was the sheriff the same man who died intestate in Llandderfel in 1649? Perhaps no will was generated during this turbulent period? Or perhaps they were different men with the same name?

EVAN AP THOMAS LLOYD (?-1640)

1. Search for baptism of Evan ap Thomas Lloyd at Llandderfel - negative (probably baptized before registers begin)
2. Search for marriage of Evan ap Thomas Lloyd at Llandderfel - negative
3. Search for Evan ap Thomas Lloyd's burial at Llandderfel originally discovery by Thomas Glenn), was found:

"Evanus ap Thomas Lloydd P F Sepult[us] fuit xvjo Maij in Coemeterio [or Caemeterio] 1640 [PF = Paterfamilias, Householder]" http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4394854%2f00350&parentid=gbprs%2fd%2f899116884%2f1&highlights=%22%22

4. Search for burial of Evan ap Thomas Lloyd's wife/widow (originally discovered by Thomas Glenn), was found:

"Dorothea v[e]rch Evan uxor Evani ap Thomas Lloydd Sepulta fuit Decimo Octavo die Februarij dieq[ue] Jovis A[nn]o 1619" http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4394854%2f00258&parentid=gbprs%2fd%2f899116792%2f1&highlights=%22%22

5. Search for will of Evan ap Thomas Lloyd in St Asaph Diocese (originally discovered by Thomas Glenn), was found:

"In the name of god Amen the Feift daie of Februarij in the yere of our Lorde god one Thousand six hundred thyrtie eight I Evan ap Thomas Lloid of the p[ar]ishe of Llanthervel wthin the dioces of St Assaphe beinge sick in body but of good sound & p[er]fect memorie (laude & prayse be unto thalmightie god) doe make this my last will & Testamt in manr & forme followinge first I Com[m]end my soule unto the Almightie god my Saviour & Redeemer and my body to the earth to be buried in Christian buriall Item I give & bequeath towardes the Rep[ar]ac[i]on of the said church of Llanthervel five shillinges Item I give & bequeath to the poore of the said p[ar]ishe Twentie shellinge to be distributed amonngest them after my buriall Item I give and bequeath to my grannd child gras v[er]ch Thomas sixteene poundes in money to be paied unto her by my executor hereafter named w[i]thin w[i]thin [sic] one yere next after my decease Item I give & bequeath to my grannd child William Thomas Twelve poundes in money Ite[m] I give & bequeath to my grannd Children Evan ap Thomas & Foulke ap Thomas the sume of sixteene poundes in money (viz) eight poundes to eyther of them to be likewise paied w[i]thin one yere next after my decease Ite[m] I give & bequeath to my grannd child margaret v[er]ch Thomas the weiffe of Evan ap Rytherch Fortie shellinges & to her daughter grace Fortie shellinges to be paid w[i]thin one yere next after my decease Item I give & bequeath to my grannd children Thomas Lloid & to his sister three poundes apeece in money to be paid w[i]thin one yere next after my decease Item I give & bequeath to my neece Jane v[er]ch Robert foure sheepe Item I give & bequeath to my s[e]rvantes Cader ap Hugh & Katterin v[er]ch Evan tenn shellinges apeece Item I give to my sonne Thomas ap Evan Lloid all the rest of my goodes cattell & chattells houshold stuffe & ympleam[en]t not before bequeathed whome I doe appoint no[m]i[n]at & ordayne to be sole executor of this my last will & will & testam[en]t And I doe [word] revoke & make frustrat all other former wills by me [signature] Jeuan Thomas Lloyd
heretofore made written published or declared In wittenesse whereof I have hereunto put my hand & an[n]exed my seale the daie & yere first w[i]thin written in the pr[e]sence & sight of
Wittenes hereunto
Cader ap Hugh
Gruff Lloid script[or] Jeuan Thomas Lloyd

Proved 29 May 1640 commission granted to son Thomas ap Evan Lloyd, sole executor"
(Source: FHL film #104,693)
(Source: Abstract: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-29005-8950-65?cc=1876640&wc=M6KJ-5P8:174219101,174247601)
(Source: Reference at NLW website: http://cat.llgc.org.uk/cgi-bin/gw/chameleon?sessionid=2015090403051457684&skin=profeb&lng=en&inst=consortium&host=lisbon.llgc.org.uk%2b9901%2bDEFAULT&patronhost=lisbon.llgc.org.uk%209901%20DEFAULT&searchid=1&sourcescreen=INITREQ&pos=1&itempos=1&rootsearch=SCAN&function=INITREQ&search=AUTHID&authid=6951961&authidu=1003)

What was this man's social status? He was not described as an Esquire or Gentleman, but he did leave large sums of money to his children.

THOMAS LLOYD

At this generation, evidence becomes very scarce. The father of Evan ap Thomas Lloyd should have been named Thomas Lloyd according to patronymic naming conventions. Glenn concluded this burial at Llandderfel applies to him:

1612: "Thomas Lloydd Generosus Paterfamilias Sepultus fuit in Ecclesia p[ar]ochialis de Llandervell XXXjo Maij dieq[ue] dominica albis" http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f4394854%2f00253&parentid=gbprs%2fd%2f899116760%2f1&highlights=%22%22

Note this man was described as a householder and gentleman.

1. Searches for will of Thomas Lloyd at St Asaph and PCC - negative

EARLIER GENERATIONS

Glenn cites no sources for the information he presents on Thomas Lloyd's family or parentage. Parish registers cannot supply this information. There is no surviving will for Thomas Lloyd or his alleged father Robert Lloyd, both of whom presumably lived at Llandderfel, at St Asaph or in the PCC.

Unless additional evidence is found, I conclude this pedigree fails at Generation 13, though the name of the ancestor in Generation 12 is probably accurate.

It is at this point that Glenn attempts to force the names recorded in Foulke's autobiography into visitation and early Welsh pedigrees.

LLANDDERFEL WILLS

Here is a list of wills of residents of LLandderfel (St Asaph Diocese) from 1550 to 1680, derived from the database at the National Library of Wales:

1567 Rynalt, Kadwalader ap Roberte ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1570 Ievan, Duddgy vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1571 Howell, Evan ap Llewelin ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1571 Tuder, Robert ap John, Llandderfel, Merioneth, mason
1573 Gronowe, John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1575 Wynn, Edward ap John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1576 Gruffithe, Elice ap Howell ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1576 Johnne, Moris ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1577 Llewelin, Gruffith ap Rees ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1578 Gronowe, David ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1578 Rees, Evan ap Howell ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1579 Lewis, Ievan ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1580 Robert, Lowry, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1580 Vaughan, John ap David, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1583 Gronowe, Morice ap Howell ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1587 Roberte, Evan ap Thomas ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1587 Wynne, David ap John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1587 Elis, John ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1588 Lloid, John Griffith, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1591 Griffithe, Elice, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1592 Ievan, Roberte ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1597 Goche, John ap Ievan, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1599 Gruffith, John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1600 Llewelin, John ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1621 Robert, John Thomas ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1623 Trevor, Elizabeth, Crogen, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1623 David, Ievan, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1623 Roberte, Oliver Thomas ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1623 Ellis, Grace, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1625 Lloyd, Edward ap Evan, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1627 Moris, Nicholas, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1631 Vaughan, Jane vch Ellis, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1631 William, Cadwalader ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1631 Llewelin, Morgan ap Evan ap David ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1633 Einion, Kadwalader ap Hughe ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1634 Moris, Edward ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth, yeoman
1636 Lloyd, Marie vch Thomas, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1636 Howell, Roger ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth, yeoman
1636 Ithell, Thomas ap Evan ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1638 Ellis, Foulke ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth, gent
1639 Thomas, Thomas ap John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1639 Thomas, Thomas ap John, Llandderfel, Merioneth [listed twice]
1640 Lloid, Evan ap Thomas, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1640 Rees, John ap Hugh David ap, Llaethgwm, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1640 Kenrick, William, Llandderfel, Merioneth, clerk/rector
1642 Elissa, Grace vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1643 William, Annes vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1645 Thomas, David ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth, gent
1645 Jones, Gruffith, Llandderfel, Merioneth, gent
1645 Jones, Gruffith, Llandderfel, Merioneth, gent
1646 Rhytherch, Gwen vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, widow
1646 Evan, Jane vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, spinster
1647 John, Evan, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1647 John, Evan, Llandderfel, Denbigh
1647 Lewis, Robert, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1647 Rees, Watkin, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1662 Harry, Elizabeth vch John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1662 Robert, John Griffith ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1662 Griffith, John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1666 Hugh, Thomas ap, Llaethgwm, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Yeoman
1668 Thomas, John, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1668 Evans, Margaret, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1668 Evan, Margaret vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Widow
1669 Meyricke, Geley, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1669 Robert, John ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1669 Thomas, Thomas ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1671 David, John, Penllyn, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1671 Davies, John, Penllyn, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1673 Lloyd, Catherine, Bryn Selwrn, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Widow
1673 Ellis, David, Bodwenni, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1673 Evans, Edmund, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Gent
1673 Robert, Edward David ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Yeoman
1674 Ellis, Evan Lloyd ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1677 Rees, Edward, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1677 Foulkes, Elin, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Widow
1677 Edward, Katherin vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Widow
1678 Moris, David ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1678 John, Edward ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1678 John, Evan, Llandderfel, Merioneth], Yeoman
1678 Thomas, Jane vch, Llandderfel, Merioneth], Widow
1678 James, John, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Yeoman
1678 Thomas, Rowland, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Tanner
1679 Jones, Hugh, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Shoemaker
1679 Robert, Rhytherch ap, Llandderfel, Merioneth
1680 Piers, Robert, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Yeoman
1680 Prichard, William, Llandderfel, Merioneth, Yeoman

In the PCC, these were found:

1507 ap DD (or ap David), Robert, Rector, of Llandderfel, Merionethshire
1649 Lloyd, John, of Gwernybrighton, Llanthervell, Merionethshire
1657 ap Evan Lloyd, John, Yeoman, of Llanthervel, Merionethshire
1660 Lloyd, Humphrey, Gentleman, of Llanthervell, Merionethshire

No references to the families mentioned above were recognizable in these PCC wills.

Comments are welcome.

[Matt A]

I can't comment specifically about these individuals, but "Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania" is a work of poor quality for any data before 1500.

-Matt A

[nathan...@gmail.com]

> I can't comment specifically about these individuals, but "Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania" is a work of poor quality for any data before 1500.
>
> -Matt A

Thanks for the warning Matt.

I found a few additional Llandderfel source materials, but nothing that pertains to Glenn's Foulke pedigree:

CHANCERY

1304/55 [1551-3]
Complainant: Hugh Jones
Defendant: Loure verch Moryce
Context: Land (40 a.) in Rhiw-waedog in Llandderfel (Rewedoke), late of Katherine verch Hoell, deceased, mother of complainant

1478/21 [1556-8]
Complainant: Thomas ap David, servant to the Lord Warden of the Cinque Prots
Defendants: Griffith ap Ieuan Lloid, William and Hugh Vaughan of Kyltalgarth; and David ap Howell Duy Price, Myles ap Elys ap Tuder, of Llanderfel
Context: Messuage, garden, and land (40 a.) in Kyltalgarth

Source: E.A. Lewis, An Inventory of the Early Chancery Proceedings Concerning Wales, Board of Celtic Studies, University of Wales History and Law Series, No. 3 (Cardiff, 1937). I read the Merionethshire section, which covers 1526-1558.

EXCHEQUER

Negative search for Llandderfel

Source: Emyr Gwynne Jones, Exchequer Proceedings (Equity) Concerning Wales Henry VIII-Elizabeth, Board of Celtic Studies, University of Wales History and Law Series 4 (Cardiff, 1939). I checked the place-name index and read the Merionethshire section.

STAR CHAMBER

E 16/14 (30)
Complainant: Watkin ap Edwd, Griffith, yeoman of Llanfor, gent.
Defendant: Dd ap Morgan, of Crogen, gent; Dd ap Thos Morris ap Jno ap Ellis, gent.
Context: pew disputes in Llandderfel parish church; assaults; the matter being put to arbitration of J.Ps., cpl durst not present his case for fear of the fury of defs. (B.A.C.; Addit., -E 3/27, I.Dn.; cf E 5/37.)

E 5/37 (37)
Complainant: Morrice ap Jno Ellis, of Selowr, gent.
Defendant: Cadwallader Watkin, of Llanfor; Watkin ap Edwd; et al.
Context: Church pew disputes at Llandderfel; abuses and assaults within the parish church. (B.; Addit., -E 4/3, I.; cf E 16/14.)

L 18/14 (24)
Complainant: Hugh ap Thos Lloyd, of Llandrillo
Defendant: Ievan ap Howell ap Ievan et Lowry uxor; Wm ap Edwd, of Llandderfel; Howell y Crydd; et al.
Context: Forcible entry and ouster from a tenement called Cae yn y Nant in the townships of Cymer and Llangan; smashing a plough and killing oxen, and assault upon cpl. (B).

P 27/33 (34)
Complainant: Cadwallader Price, of Rhiwlas, J.P. and dep-lieutenant
Defendant: Jno Edwd ap Rees; Griffith ap Nicholas
Context: Forcible entries on land at Llandderfel. (B.; Addit., -P 58/20, A.; P 60/11, B.A.)

T 31/2 (27)
Complainant: Morgan Thos, of Crogen, Llandderfel, gent.
Defendant: Rowland ap Eliza. of Rhiwaedog; Dd ap Rees ap Jno; et al.
Context: Forcible entry into Crogen; assault upon cpl's wife and daughter and servants followed by an assault upon cpl, taking him away and imprisoning him. Defs pleaded that they were executing a commission awarded out of the Court of the Marches. (B.A.)

Source: Ifan ab Owen Edwards, A Catalogue of Star Chamber Proceedings Relating to Wales, Board of Celtic Studies, University of Wales History and Law Series 1 (Cardiff, 1929). I read Merioneth section.

MANORIAL RECORDS

The Manorial Documents Register catalogues several manors in Merionethshire, but does not state where they are located. Does anyone know a quick way to match Welsh manors to towns or parishes where they are located?

I'm also planning to check lay subsidies.

[nathan...@gmail.com]

> I'm also planning to check lay subsidies.

LAY SUBSIDIES

According to the E 179 Database, many lay subsidies survive for Llandderfel Parish and Nantfreur Township, but most are clerical subsidies. The following include names of the laity:
*1291 - E179/242/53 [includes Nantfreur]
1543 - E179/1/34F
*1543/4 - E179/222/307 [includes Nantfreur]
*1546 - E179/222/316
*1662 (hearth tax) - E179/265/2 [includes Nantfreur]
*1666 (hearth tax) - E179/222/400A [includes Nantfreur]
1667 or later (hearth tax) - E179/321/4 [includes Nantfreur]
1670-4 (hearth tax) - E179/351/8 [includes Nantfreur]
1671/2 - E179/306/30

Those marked * were transcribed and are available, among other places, at the Family History Library, see https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/356920

E179/222/400A, Nantfrier township [1666 Hearth Tax] includes the name "ffowke Thomas, I-2." So, he paid taxes on a residence with 1 (or 2?) hearths.

Of significance to my verification study, in E179/222/307, Vill de Nanffrer [35 Henry VIII] [1543/4], we find the name "Robt ap dd lloyd £4 8d." He paid the fourth largest tax. This fits the time and place to be Generation 11 in RD600 "Robert ap Dafydd Llwyd." Whom Edward Foulke in 1702/3 identified as his 3g-grandfather "Robert, ap David Lloyd."

Also, it seems to place several generations of Edward Foulke's ancestry in the smaller geographic area Nantfreur Township:

1. 1666 - ffowke Thomas taxed there
2. 1622 - Thomas Lloyd of Naufreyr, esq. appointed Sheriff (concluding this is Thomas ap Evan Lloyd (d. 1649), as no other candidates for the Sheriff have been discovered)
3. 1543/4 - Robt ap dd lloyd taxed there




Here are the complete lay subsidy transcripts:

E179/222/307 [35 Henry VIII] [1543/4]
Vill de llanthervell
Robt ap John 20/- 2d
Morgan Taylor ap ... £3 6d
Johe ap Rs tudr £3 6d
Ievan ap griff goch ... 8d
Thoma ap gruff ap ... ap John £4 8d
Ievan ap griff ap Rs lloyd £3 6d
Ievan ap holl ap grono £3 6d
lln ap hugh £3 6d
Johe ap lln ap holl 40/- 4d
dd ap grono ap lln ap mred £3 6d
Ievan ap lln ap mred holl 40/- 4d
Sma 5/2

(Here a fresh membrane starts).

Vill de llanthervell
David ap ... 20/- 2d
Cadir ap Ievan(?) 20/- 2d
David ap Ievan(?) £3 6d
Robt goch 40/- 4d
Johe ap Ievan(?) 20/- 2d
Thomas ap Robt(?) 20/- 2d
Thomas ap Robt ap holl 40/- 4d
(John ap lln ap holl mort)
Ievan ap dd ap lln 40/- 4d
Johe ap holl ap Ievan 20/- 2d
lewys ap holl(?) 20/- 2d
Morgan ap holl ap dd 20/- 2d
Jacobo ap Thom ap griff 40/- 4d
Thoma tuddr 40/- 4d
Sma 3/4

Vill de Nanffrer
Johe ap Elise £7 2/4
Ievan ap holl(?) ap ... £7 2/4
Griff ap Rs ap lln(?) ap gruff £5 12d
Robt ap dd lloyd £4 8d
Elise ap Robt(?) ... £3 6d
Johe ap gruff ap Edward £3 6d
tudr ap lln(?) ap holl(?) 20/- 2d
Willo ap tudr 20/- 2d
hugone ap thomas ap eig 20/- 2d
Thoma ap holl ap emr 40/- 4d
Sma 8/2

E179/222/316 [37 Henry VIII] [1546]

llanthervel
Elys ap holl in terr 26/8 2/8
Gruff ap Ievan ap John £8 5/4
Ievan gruff £8 5/4
Thomas ap gr ap Ie(van) ap John £5 3/4
Ievan ap dd ap lln in terr 20/2 2/-
Edward ap John Wyn in terr ... 4/-
Ievan ap holl ap ...
...
...
John ap Elise
Gruff ap Rs in terr 20/-
Ievan ap gruff in terr 20/-
Ievan ap holl ap grono £5 3/4
dd ap Jankyn £5 3/4
Morgan tailler £5 3/4
Nicholas bragwr £6 4/-
Morgan ap thomas in terr £4 8/-

(After this a portion of the membrane is missing).

E179/222/332 [17/18 Charles II]

Llanthervell John David Two pounds nine shillinges
subcollector and three pence
(p. 100)

Nantffriar £1-12-2 £1-4-10
William John Morris
William Thomas

Llandderfel £2-9-3 £1-14-0
Robt Roberts
Edward Thomas
(p. 107)

E179/222/400A [1666 Hearth Tax]

Llandurvill parish
Owen Jones I-2
John Thomas I
John Robberts I-2
Edward prothrough I-2
Elizabeth Robert I
Gabriell Thomas 2-8
Edward Thomas I
ditto one more disputable I
Robert Griffith I
Ellis Robert I-2
Robert Roberts I-2
Joane Jones & Richard Thomas 2
Edward Thomas Senior & Junior 2
John pugh & Hugh James 2
Magdalen Edwards I-2
William Lewis & Grace Jones 2
David ffowke & John Lewis 2
John David I-2
Thomas Evans 2
David Morris 3-6
David Jones I
Margrett Reece & Thomas Morgan 2
John price 2-4
John Thomas I-2
William pugh I-2
Morgan Reece I
Ann Thomas & Edward Robert 2
Gaynor Ellis & Dorothy Rogers 2
Edward Owen I
John pugh I-2
Eliza: Thomas & Wm Humphreys 2
Humphrey Thomas I-2
Robert Jones & John David 2
Cadwalider prothrough I-2
Hugh Jones I-2
Edmond Evans 2-4
Ellis David 3
Gelly Merrick I-2
Thomas Jones 2-2
ditto one more disputable I
59

Nantfrier township
Edward Davis I-2
Jane Thomas I-2
William Robert I
Hugh Morris I
John David I-2
Edward David Ellis I-2
John Thomas 2-4
Cadwalider Robert I-2
William Thomas 2-4
ffowke Thomas I-2
Robert ffowke I-2
Hugh Thomas I-2
Evan ap Rothrough I-2
Thomas Lloyd 3-6
Humphrey ffowke I-2
William John I-2
John Thomas Bowen I-2
Hugh John I-2
23

Source: Merionethshire Taxpayers of the Tudor and Stuart periods. Transcribed and typed from the original MSS. by Leonard Owen (1957) [FHL British film #827,865 Item 3]. In the foreword, Owen notes that the transcripts are not the final edited version and likely contain errors.

I still need to check these two:
*1291 - E179/242/53 [includes Nantfreur]
*1662 (hearth tax) - E179/265/2 [includes Nantfreur]

[Brad D]

There appears to be entries for this line in the community tree on Familysearch.org:
WELSH MEDIEVAL DATABASE PRIMARILY NOBILITY AND GENTRY LINES

This database was easier to find last year. It has been reconfigured. Now you have to go to familysearch.org. Hit the "Search" and then "Genealogies" menu items. Put in names and at bottom instead of "All", select "Community Trees"

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/3WWG-ZSY

The record sites many sources mostly pedigrees but possibly an MS from Robert Vaughan in the NLW.

Welsh Genealogies, AD 300-1400, vol. 9 p. 702 Family History Library (FHL) : FHL book 942.9 D2bp; FHL microfiche 6025561
Welsh Genealogies AD 1400-1500, vol. 1 p. 115, 116*; vol. 8 p. 1309; vol. 9 p. 1416, 1420 Family History Library (FHL) : FHL book 942.9 D2bw
The History of the Princes, the Lords Marcher and the Ancient Nobility of Powys Fodog and the Ancient Lords of Arwystli, Cedewen and Meirionydd, vol. 4 p. 255; vol. 6 p. 47*, 104* Family History Library (FHL) : FHL book 942.9 D2L; FHL microfilms 990,213-990,214
Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches Between the Years 1586 and 1613, vol. 2 p. 112*, 126* Family History Library (FHL) : FHL book 942.9 D23d; FHL microfilm 176,668
Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families: with Their Collateral Branches in Denbighshire, Merionethshire, p. 253 Family History Library (FHL) : FHL book Folio 942.9 D2gr; FHL microfilm 468,334
Llyfr achau Robert Vaughan., p. 745: 744H; 751: 749Z Family History Library (FHL) : FHL BRITISH Film [ 104387 Items 2-3 ]
Merion in the Welsh tract: with Sketches of the Townships of Haverford and Radnor,

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 10:45:15 PM UTC-4, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:

[nathan...@gmail.com]

Much appreciated Brad. I'll start checking these sources. It looks like the Medieval Unit here at FamilySearch did quite an extensive study of this family.

[Stewart Baldwin via]

Matt A

>I can't comment specifically about these individuals, but
>"Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania" is a work of poor quality
>for any data before 1500.

This is true, but somewhat misleading, because Glenn's "Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania" is also a very poor source for the period 1500-1700, improving to "not quite so bad" once the families reach America. In fact, in one sense this work is even worse for the period 1500-1700 than it is for the earlier period, because most of the errors and falsehoods for the pre-1500 period are ones which Glenn copied from other sources, while many of the errors for the 1500-1700 period are ones which are due to Glenn himself. Of the published disproofs of Glenn's claimed royal descents of which I am aware, all have "weak links" in the 1500-1700 period. (Of course, they might also have earlier weak links, but it is the most recent weak links which are crucial.) Glenn's most common error was to incorrectly identify two individuals of the same name.

Stewart Baldwin

[Brad Dubbs]

I hope that helps. Probably it's incidental but just a quick clarification. When I said that most of the sources are probably pedigrees, it could be that Dwnn and I believe sometimes Bartram in his pedigrees has a note that refers to a non-pedigree source. But I don't have a lot of knowledge other than what I have run across in my own research of the Nannau line. Also, when I said that Robert Vaughan's Peniarth (Hengwrt) MSS in the NLW, might be a manuscript source, it does not mean that the Peniarth manuscript will not be a pedigree. Again, that's just from the few documents I looked at while at the NLW but I believe, from my brief reading of the catalogue of Peniarth MSS that it contain many pedigrees by Robert Vaughan but also other antiquaries and Wells poets.

[nathan...@gmail.com]

Another subsidy, taken in 1636, which is not part of the Exchequer series, includes Evan ap Thomas Lloyd, great-grandfather of Edward Foulke. Four years later, Evan wrote his will (see previous message) and left large sums of money to his grandchildren, including Edward's father Foulke Thomas.

Llandervel
Edmond Meyricke, esquier, in terr' iijli xijs
John Lloyd, of Gwern y Bughton, in terr' xxs iiijs
Evan ap Thomas Lloyd, in bonis' iijli viijs
Thomas ap John Thomas, in terr' xxs iiijs
Robert ap Thomas ap Richard, in terr' xxs iiijs

Source: "To the Editors," Cambrian Quarterly Magazine and Celtic Repertory 3 (1831): 453. Online at https://books.google.com/books?id=W6M2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA453

[nathan...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 5, 2015 at 9:57:54 PM UTC-6, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> Four years later, Evan wrote his will (see previous message)

Correction: two years later

[nathan...@gmail.com]

Posting on GenMedieval pays dividends. Thanks for everyone's help. I now have near contemporary evidence to verify Generations 10 to 13 in RD600's Edward Foulke line. (Ancestors preceding Generation 10 are recorded in Bartrum.) In Robert Vaughan's (1592?-1667), Llyfr Aachau, the following pedigree was recorded (thanks to Stewart Baldwin, FASG, for supplying his notes). "Nanttfreuer" is written in the margin. Dwnn also recorded details about some of these individuals in his visitation pedigrees of 1586 and 1613:

GENERATION 10

10. Lowri ferch Elise (sister of David Llwyd ab Elise) = Rheinallt ap Gruffudd ap Rhys

[Vaughan:] "Reinallt ap Gr: ap Rys o Vranes p" (p. 751)
[Dwnn:] "Reinallt ab Grufd ab Rhys ab Ivan(1) ab Llewn ddu(2)=Lowri v: Elise ab Grufd ab Einion(3)" [dated 1594]" (2:126)

His daughter:

GENERATION 11

11. Mary ferch Rheinallt = Robert ap Dafydd Llwyd [b. say 1505]

[Vaughan:] "Nantffreuer: Robert llwyd ap dd llwyd = Mari verch Reinallt ap Gr: ap Rys o Vranes p
Mam Robert oedd Annes verch Jeun ap Gr: ap Jeun ap Einion" [then abbreviations] (p. 751)
[Partial translation: The mother of Robert was Annes ...]

[Dwnn:] "Mari=Robt Lloyd ab Davd ap Ivan Vychan d/o Reinallt ab Grufd ab Rhys ab Ivan(1) ab Llewn ddu(2)=Lowri v: Elise ab Grufd ab Einion(3)" [dated 1594] (2:126)

[Dwnn:] "Plant Dd Lloyd(1) ab Dd ab Jeun Vyn ynt 1Howel Vyn ... O Wraig arall Robt ab Dd Lloyd" (2:230)
[Partial translation: The children of David Lloyd ... were Howel Vaughan, of another wife Robert ab Dd Lloyd"]

[Dwnn:] "Plant Dd Lld oi wraig gynta Robt Lloyd o Lan Ddervel" [dated 1588] (2:230)
[Partial translation: The children of David Lloyd by his wife Robt Lloyd of Lan Ddervel]

[Dwnn:] "According to a pedigree, by the Merionethshire Antiquary, Robert Vaughan, 'Dafydd Lloyd' had five sons and four daughters, by which of his wives they severally were Vaughan does not state. The names of the sons, as given by him, are as follows: Llewelyn, Robert Lloyd, of Nantfreuer, Howel Vaughan, Owen, William Vaughan. The daughters are not mentioned by name, but they are stated to have married, the eldest to Robert Wynne, of Maesmore, Esq.; the second to Middleton, of Gwayn-ynog [or Gwaynynog], and, after his death, to Pennant of Bichton; the third, to Richard ap Griffith ap Ievan ap y Giwn, of Hendwr, gentleman; and the fourth to a gentleman of Bromfield, whose name is not given.'" (2:230 f1) - [This is a footnote added by a later editor.]

Their son:

GENERATION 12

12. Thomas ap Robert = Catrin ferch Robert ap Gruffudd [b. say 1535]

[Vaughan:] "Thomas llwyd" (p. 751)
No wife named
Sons: "Robert Tho: llwyd" and "Jeun Thom: llwyd"
Two children of his son "Robert Tho: llwyd" are recorded: "Thom: llwyd o Gent esq. porthmon oedd ef? ai dad hefyd" and "[daughter]=Wiliam Wynn ap Sr Jon Wynn o Wydyr: Kt p" [Translation: Thom: llwyd of Gent esq. drover ...]

[Dwnn:] "Tomas Lloyd ap Rhobert Lloyd o Landdervel" (2:86)
[Partial translation: Tomas Lloyd ap Rhobert Lloyd of Landdervel]

GENERATION 13

13. Ieuan ap Thomas = Dorothea Evans [b. say 1565]

[Vaughan:] "Jeun Thom: llwyd" (p. 751)

SOURCES

1. Llyfr achau by Robert Vaughan, p. 751: 749Z Family History Library (FHL) : FHL BRITISH Film [ 104387 Items 2-3 ]

2. Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches Between the Years 1586 and 1613, vol. 2 p. 86, 126, 230*, 230 fn. 1.

CONCLUSION
Glenn's pedigree of this early American colonist back to individuals in Bartrum's pedigrees is verified.

[nathan...@gmail.com]

I'm not sure how this relates, but a poet named Rees Cain wrote "an ode to Thomas Lloyd of Nantffreuer" in 1595, as mentioned in Archaeologia Cambrensis 2 (1871):119. https://books.google.com/books?id=RJUbAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA119

Also, in the PCC, another Nantfryer will dating from the period was found, though no recognizable members of Edward Foulke's family are mentioned:

1657, Will of Jane verch Humffrey, Widow of Nantfryer.

Based on her children's names, she was the widow of a man named Foulke. http://interactive.ancestry.com/5111/40611_310315-00543/707520

[nathan...@gmail.com]

For researchers seeking additional source material on this family, here are two sources relating to residents of Penllyn Manor (which I assume equates to Penllyn Comot [or Hundred] and hopefully includes Llandderfel and Nanttfreuer):

1. Rent Roll, 1592, The National Archives, LR 2/236, ff 77-109

2. Survey (lists names of freehold and copyhold tenants, details of property and services by which it is held) with other manors 1596, British Library, Manuscript Collections, Harl. Ms. 4776

Source: Manorial Documents Register

I also didn't check Exchequer cases during the Reign of James I: https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/259954

[deca...@aol.com]

Can we then assume that the lineage Gary Boyd Roberts gives for Edward Foulke in RD600 is accurate? I also see that Edward Foulke is listed as a gateway ancestor for the Baronial Order of the Magna Charta. Which of his ancestors would qualify for this society? King John of England?

~Cheers

[D. Spencer Hines]

Well, William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke, for one. Top dog.

DSH

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity."

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength to Love - Jan 1963
-------------------------------------------
wrote in message
news:6c99cf72-2475-4d4d...@googlegroups.com...

[D. Spencer Hines]

But this alleged descent from William The Marshal may be bogus if Edward
Foulke does not have a Royal Descent from Edward I.

DSH

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message news:oc0vog$sco$1...@dont-email.me...

[deca...@aol.com]

Below is the alleged descent from Edward I to Edward Foulke of PA taken from the Welsh Settlement of Pennsylvania (1912). I believe the line breaks at generation 6. Are there any other descents that Edward Foulke of PA has from a Magna Charta Baron?

1. EDWARD I., KING OF ENGLAND, had by the Princess Eleanor, of Castile,
2. LADY JOAN, who m. first, Gilbert, Earl of Hertford, and had,
3. LADY MARGARET DE CLARE, who m. Hugh, Earl of Gloucester, and had,
4. LADY MARGARET D’AUDLEY, who m. Ralph, Earl of Stafford, and had,
5. LADY JOAN DE STAFFORD, who m. John, 2nd Lord Cherleton, and had,
**6. LADY JOAN DE CHERLETON, who m. John, sixth Baron Le Strange, of Knockyn Castle, also of Royal Descent, d. 1397, (see Lloyd's History of Powys Fadog, vol. IV., 48) and had,
7. LADY ELIZABETH LE STRANGE, who m. Gruffydd ap Madoc Vychan, third feudal Baron of Glyndyfrdwy, and lord of Rhuddalt, (see Burke's "Royal Families," vol. II, fo.-LXI), and had,
8. LADY ISABEL GRIFFITH, who m. Goronway ap Gruffyth Madoc, and had,
9. TUDOR, feudal lord of Penllyn, who had,
10. HOWEL TUDOR, whose son,
11. DAVDD-LLWYD TUDOR had,
12. LADY GWENHWYFAR TUDOR, who m. David ap Ievanvychan of Llanuwchllyn, in Penllyn, descended from the feudal Barons of Penllyn, (see Dwnn's Visitations of Wales), and had,
13. DAVID-LLWYD, who m. Lowry, daughter of Howelvaughan, and had,
14. ROBERT-LLWYD, of Gwerny Brechtwyn, who m. Mary, daughter of Reinaullt, of Branas Uchaf, and had,
15. THOMAS ROBERT-LLWYD, 1520-1612, of Nant y Friar, or Nanfreur, in Penllyn, Merioneth, buried in the parish church of Llandderfel, 21 May, 1612. He m. Catherine, daughter of Robert Griffith Evan-goch, who was descended from Ievan-goch, of Cwm Penaner, Denbigh, an ancestor of John Cadwalader, the Philadelphia school teacher, and of John ap Thomas, of "Company No. 1" (see Dwnn's Visitations of Wales, 1585-1603), and had Mary, wife of Richard, of Tyddyn Tyfod, and had,
16. EVAN AP THOMAS LLOYD, 1555-1640, buried at the Llanderfol church. He m. Dorothea Evans, buried with her husband, in Feb. 1619, and had,
17. THOMAS EVAN LLOYD, high sheriff of Merionethshire, 1623, d. Nov. 1649; m. Catherine, daughter of William David, of Llanderfel, and had,
18. FFOULKE AP THOMAS LLOYD, bapt. at Llanderfol, 14 April, 1623; m. Lowry, daughter of Edward David Ellis of Llanvor, Merioneth, and had (see Jenkins's History of Gwynedd),
19. Edward Foulke, 1651-1741

[Paulo Canedo]

What's the problem with generation 6.

[deca...@aol.com]

Joan Cherleton, daughter of Sir Edward Cherleton and Eleanor Holand, died 17 Sept. 1425 and married Sir John Grey K.G., Earl of Tankerville who was killed at the battle of Bauge on 22 March 1421. The source for this is Jones, Morris Charles, The Feudal Barons of Powys (London, J. Russell Smith, 1868), p. 114.

There appears to be some conflict between John Strange and John Grey.

[deca...@aol.com]

Here is another alleged descent from Edward I to Jane Owen, who like Edward Foulke, was a Welsh immigrant to Pennsylvania.

1. EDWARD I., King of England, had by his first wife, Princess Eleanor, daughter of Ferdinand III., King of Castile and Leon:
2. PRINCESS ELEANOR PLANTAGENET, who m. Henri, Count de Barr, and had:
3. LADY ELEANOR DE BARR, who m. Llewelyn ap Owen ap Merededd, of Royal Descent from Rhys ap Tudor, Prince of South Wales, and had:
4. THOMAS AP LLEWELYN, who m. Lady Eleanor, also of Royal Descent, daughter of Philip ap Iver ap Cadivor, and had:
5. ELEANOR v. PHILIP, who m. Griffith Vychan, lord of Glyndyfrdwy, and had:
6. LOWRY VAUGHN (sister of Owen Glendower), who m. Robert Puleston, of Emral, and had:
7. JOHN PULESTON, of Emral, who 'm. Angharad, daughter of Griffith Hanmer, of Hanmer, and had:
8. MARGARET PULESTON (see Dwnn’s “Visitations of Wales"), m. David ap Ievan ap Einion, constable of Harlech Castle, 1468, and had:
9. EINION AP DAVID, of Cryniarth, in Edermon, who had:
10. LLEWELYN AP EINION, who had:
11. GRIFFITH AP LLEWELYN, who m. Mary, daughter of Howell ap Harry, and had:
12. CATHERINE VCH GRIFFITH, who m. Edward ap Ievan, of Llanwddyn parish, Montgomeryshire, and had:
13. ELLEN VCH EDWARD, who m. Lewis ap Griffith, of Yshute (Ysputty-Ievan) Denbighshire, 1525—1600, also of Royal Descent, and had:
14. ROBERT AP LEWIS, of Rhiwlas, near Bala, Merionethshire, 1555—1645, who m. Gwyrryl (Gwervyl), daughter of Hewelyn (Llewelyn) ap David, of Llan Rwst, Denbighshire, and had:
15. EVAN AP ROBERT AP LEWIS, of Rhiwlas and Vron Goch, Merionethshire, 1585-1662 (see Glenn’s “ Merion in the Welsh Tract”), m. Jane , and had:
16. OWEN AP EVAN, of Fron Goch farm, near Bala, d. 1669; m. Gainor John, d. 14 December 1678, and had:
17. JANE OWEN, b. at Fron Goch, 1653/4, d. Merion, Pennsylvania, 1 September, 1686.