DFAs -- Taronites
Clagett, Brice
others on DFAs.
As I understand it, Mr. Baldwin agrees that the Bagratid descent
from Samuel Mamikonian (and through him from the Gregorids and
Arsacids) is valid, but questions whether any medieval western
Europeans can prove a descent from the Bagratid-Mamikonid
marriage.
What about the Taronites? From what I have seen, the founder of
that family was Gregory Bagratuni, Prince of Taron (d. c. 923),
who was a great-great grandson of the Bagratid-Mamikonid marriage.
And, while there may be doubt as to some of the intervening links,
there seems no doubt that John Taronites, Duke of Skopje (fl.
1091), was a descendant (probably six generations down) of
Gregory. Duke John's granddaughter Maria Taronitissa married John
Dukas Komnenos, Duke of Cyprus, and their daughter Maria Komnena
(1154-1217) married Amalric I, King of Jerusalem. That marriage
has many descendants, including Jacquette de Luxembourg, Duchess
of Bedford, and her English progeny.
This seems to me the least problematic DFA that I've seen. I
solicit comments from Mr. Baldwin and others.
D. Spencer Hines
Since anyone with a legitimate descent from Edward IV can claim this
descent from Amalric I, King of Jerusalem, and Maria Comnena ---- and
that is tens of thousands of folks living today ---- this opens up some
quite interesting possibilities ---- if it were to pan out.
And, of course, Jacquette de Luxembourg had many other children besides
Elizabeth Woodville [Wydville] ---- wife of Edward IV.
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"Clagett, Brice" <bcla...@cov.com> wrote in message
news:FFD7518EB626D41186FD009027E2393801C02EEE@CBIEXM03WA...
John Steele Gordon
news:al_a8.159$ro1....@eagle.america.net...
> Hmmmmmmm.
>
> Since anyone with a legitimate descent from Edward IV can claim this
> descent from Amalric I, King of Jerusalem, and Maria Comnena ---- and
> that is tens of thousands of folks living today ---- this opens up some
> quite interesting possibilities ---- if it were to pan out.
>
> And, of course, Jacquette de Luxembourg had many other children besides
> Elizabeth Woodville [Wydville] ---- wife of Edward IV.
Indeed. A quick look at Faris II yields the following 17th-century American
immigrants descended from Elizabeth's sister Katherine, and hence from
Jacquetta:
St. Leger Codd
Edward Digges
Warham Horsmanden
Katherine Saint Leger
Maria Johanna Somerset
And the following descend from Elizabeth by her first husband, Sir John
Grey:
Thomas Wingfield
Thomas Dudley
Charles Calvert
Maria Johanna Somerset
Elizabeth Bosville
And if you buy into the notion that Mary Boleyn's children were by Henry
VIII, then the following descend from Elizabeth and Edward IV:
Anne Humphrey
Herbert Pelham
John West
That makes for a lot of American descendants (from just 17th-century
immigrants yet). The world total must be staggering.
JSG
Nathaniel Taylor
bcla...@cov.com (Clagett, Brice) wrote:
Just for kicks, because I'm teaching the Crusades this semester and
thinking about many of these people, let me follow up John's reply (which
listed 17th-century American immigrant descendants of Jacquette) with a
line to one of them, with the DFA suggested by Brice coming in at gen. 3.
Be warned: gens. 0-14 are from Turton, so I would welcome corrections. I
particularly like that this little chunk of ancestry also contains the
historian Geoffrey de Villehardouin (another Latin settler in Greece)
behind the wife of gen. 9.
0. ALEXIOS KOMNENOS, BYZANTINE EMPEROR (Ý1118) ƒ Irene Dukas
1. JOHN KOMNENOS, BYZANTINE EMPEROR (Ý1143) ƒ Irene, of Hungary
2. Andronikos Komnenos (Ý1142) ƒ Irene Rhodocanakis (Ý1162)
3. John Dukas Komnenos, Duke of Cyprus (Ý1174) ƒ Maria Taronitissa
4. Maria Comnena (Ý1217) ƒ AMALRIC I, KING OF JERUSALEM (Ý1173)
5. Isabella (Ý1208) ƒ HENRY OF CHAMPAGNE, KING OF JERUSALEM 1192-1197
6. Alix ƒ HUGH I DE LUSIGNAN, KING OF CYPRUS (Ý1218)
7. Marie de Lusignan ƒ Gauthier IV, comte de Brienne (Ýc. 1247)
8. Hugues, comte de Brienne (Ý1296) ƒ Isabelle de la Roche
9. Gauthier V, comte de Brienne, duke of Athens (Ý1311) ƒ Jeanne de
Châtillon (Ý1355)
10. Isabelle de Brienne ƒ Gauthier III d¹Enghien (Ý1342)
11. Louis d¹Enghien, comte de Brienne (Ý1394) ƒ Jeanne di San Severino
12. Marguerite d¹Enghien ƒ Jean de Luxembourg
13. Pierre de Luxembourg, c. de Saint-Pol (Ý1433) ƒ Marguerite de Baux
(Ý1469)
14. Jacquette de Luxembourg (Ý1472) ƒ Richard Wydeville, 1st Earl Rivers
(Ý1469)
15. Elizabeth Wydeville (afterwards Queen of England; Ý1492) ƒ Sir John
Grey of Ferrers
16. Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset (Ý 1501) ƒ Cicely Bonville (Ý1530)
17. Dorothy Grey ƒ Robert Willoughby, 2d Baron Willoughby (Ý1521)
18. Elizabeth Willoughby ƒ John Paulet, 2d Marquess of Winchester (Ý 1576)
19. Mary Paulet (Ý1592) ƒ Henry Cromwell, 2d Baron Cromwell (Ý1592)
20. Edward Cromwell, 3d Baron Cromwell (Ý1607) ƒ Frances Rugge
21. Frances Cromwell (Ý1662) ƒ Sir John Wingfield (Ý1631)
22. John Wingfield, York Herald (1623-1678) ƒ Mary Owen
23. Thomas Wingfield of New Kent County, Virginia (Ý1720)
Nat Taylor
canberra
I have checked generation 1-14 only and will record a source by each
generation. You will not see me mention Turton, even though I do have that
source as well.
One miserable observation, why John Komnenos, as he was Johannes or
Ioannes-----------?
See Below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@post.harvard.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: DFAs -- Taronites
> In article <FFD7518EB626D41186FD009027E2393801C02EEE@CBIEXM03WA>,
> bcla...@cov.com (Clagett, Brice) wrote:
>
> Just for kicks, because I'm teaching the Crusades this semester and
> thinking about many of these people, let me follow up John's reply (which
> listed 17th-century American immigrant descendants of Jacquette) with a
> line to one of them, with the DFA suggested by Brice coming in at gen. 3.
> Be warned: gens. 0-14 are from Turton, so I would welcome corrections. I
> particularly like that this little chunk of ancestry also contains the
> historian Geoffrey de Villehardouin (another Latin settler in Greece)
> behind the wife of gen. 9.
>
> 0. ALEXIOS KOMNENOS, BYZANTINE EMPEROR (Ý1118) f Irene Dukas
====See ES II 175
> 1. JOHN KOMNENOS, BYZANTINE EMPEROR (Ý1143) f Irene, of Hungary
======see ES II 175
> 2. Andronikos Komnenos (Ý1142) f Irene Rhodocanakis (Ý1162)
========See ES II 177
> 3. John Dukas Komnenos, Duke of Cyprus (Ý1174) f Maria Taronitissa
====See ES II 177 where the wife is recorded as NN Taronitissa (as nun
Maria) her father is (Michael) or, according to another source Georgios
Taronites Komnenos
> 4. Maria Comnena (Ý1217) f AMALRIC I, KING OF JERUSALEM (Ý1173)
=====Source The Rupenides etc by Rudt-Collenberg treeXII; Gerald Paget
Ancestors of Prince Charles, Volume I page 141, ES II 177
> 5. Isabella (Ý1208) f HENRY OF CHAMPAGNE, KING OF JERUSALEM 1192-1197
=====Gerald Paget, Ancestors of Prince Charles volume I p.141
> 6. Alix f HUGH I DE LUSIGNAN, KING OF CYPRUS (Ý1218)
========Isenburg (Loring) II 42
> 7. Marie de Lusignan f Gauthier IV, comte de Brienne (Ýc. 1247)
=======Rupenides, Tree VII; ES III 564
> 8. Hugues, comte de Brienne (Ý1296) f Isabelle de la Roche
=======ES III 682; Rupenides trees VII,IX
> 9. Gauthier V, comte de Brienne, duke of Athens (Ý1311) f Jeanne de
> Châtillon (Ý1355)
=======ES III 682
> 10. Isabelle de Brienne f Gauthier III d¹Enghien (Ý1342)
============ES VII 79
> 11. Louis d¹Enghien, comte de Brienne (Ý1394) f Jeanne di San Severino
========ES VII 79
> 12. Marguerite d¹Enghien f Jean de Luxembourg
============ES VII 79; Isenburg (Loring) III 109
> 13. Pierre de Luxembourg, c. de Saint-Pol (Ý1433) f Marguerite de Baux
> (Ý1469)
=======Isenburg (Loring) III 109; Cahiers de St.Louis 775
> 14. Jacquette de Luxembourg (Ý1472) f Richard Wydeville, 1st Earl Rivers
> (Ý1469)
==========Isenburg (Loring) III 109, Gerald Paget vol.
III 106
Burke's Guide to The Royal Family p.102
I think we can accept Turton on this line.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
CMW12635
Bedford would be her son, Anthony Wydville, 2nd Earl Rivers. By his mistress,
Gwenllian Stradling, he had a bastard daughter, Margaret, who married Sir
Robert Poyntz, of Iron Acton. Thomas Owsley, the seventeenth century immigrant
to Virginia, was a descendant of this line. He was a son of the Reverend John
Owsley and his wife, Dorothea (Poyntz) Owsley.
Charles Ward
CMW1...@aol.com
Nathaniel Taylor
(canberra) wrote:
>I have checked generation 1-14 only and will record a source by each
>generation. You will not see me mention Turton, even though I do have that
>source as well.
Thanks, Leo. I haven't looked closely at these lines, and Turton was all
I had; your additional info. provides more reliable support.
>One miserable observation, why John Komnenos, as he was Johannes or
>Ioannes-----------?
Certainly. I'm just used to calling them John, in the context of teaching
the history to Anglophone students.
<snip>
Nat Taylor
Stewart Baldwin
>I have been reviewing posts in the archives by Stewart Baldwin and
>others on DFAs.
>
>As I understand it, Mr. Baldwin agrees that the Bagratid descent
>from Samuel Mamikonian (and through him from the Gregorids and
>Arsacids) is valid, but questions whether any medieval western
>Europeans can prove a descent from the Bagratid-Mamikonid
>marriage.
Just to clarify my position on this suggested DFA, I accept the later
Bagratid descent from Samuel Mamikonian, but I have never seen any
validly documented line of descent of Samuel from the Gregorids. I do
accept that Samuel's descent from the key Mamikonid-Gregorid marriage
is PROBABLE, but the intervening generations (amounting to ca. 300
years) are often a matter of pure guesswork. The Mamikonid-Gregorid
link is very well documented, and causes no problems, but the
documentation of the suggested Gregorid-Arsacid link is not entirely
satisfactory. (I do accept that there probably was such a connection,
but I consider the existing evidence as unsatisfactory to nail it down
exactly.)
>What about the Taronites? From what I have seen, the founder of
>that family was Gregory Bagratuni, Prince of Taron (d. c. 923),
>who was a great-great grandson of the Bagratid-Mamikonid marriage.
>And, while there may be doubt as to some of the intervening links,
>there seems no doubt that John Taronites, Duke of Skopje (fl.
>1091), was a descendant (probably six generations down) of
>Gregory. Duke John's granddaughter Maria Taronitissa married John
>Dukas Komnenos, Duke of Cyprus, and their daughter Maria Komnena
>(1154-1217) married Amalric I, King of Jerusalem. That marriage
>has many descendants, including Jacquette de Luxembourg, Duchess
>of Bedford, and her English progeny.
>
>This seems to me the least problematic DFA that I've seen. I
>solicit comments from Mr. Baldwin and others.
Unfortunately, once you reach these later Armenian families and their
Byzantine connections, you have left the period that I have examined
carefully, and I have access to few of the relevant primary sources
for that period. The Auburn University library to which I have easy
access is somewhat strange in its distribution of such source
materials. Their selection is very good for the early native Armenian
historians (with English translations of Agathangelos, Faustos, Lazar,
Elishe, Sebeos, and Moses of Chorene all being available), but they
have little that would be relevant once you get to the later period of
the Taronites that you are asking about.
Stewart Baldwin