Marisco
Ivor West
I have seen the line you mention before and its counterpart in the
Dictionary of National Biography which has Geoffrey de Marisco, d1245, as
Justiciar of Ireland, nephew of Hervey de Mount-Maurice and son of Jordan of
Huntspill-Mareys. DNB also gives Geoffrey a brother Jordan and another,
Richard, Sheriff of Dorset and Somerset 1212, d1226. It would make this
generation born c1160, a generation older than Brice if he was the
grandfather of Edith, who married the villein of the piece, whom I estimate
was born c1240. Sheriff Richard seems to be in the right place although a
little ahead of time. It seems he went on to be Bishop of Durham in 1217 and
died 1226.
Geoffrey is said to have had eight sons, one of whom, William, although
married to Matilda, the daughter of the Archbishop of Dublin, was outlawed
for murder in 1235. Perhaps he, as the black sheep of the family, may have
had some dangeous liaisons with the lower orders as well :)
Other contemporary West Country Mariscos include William, who married Lucy,
and with his son, Jordan (popular name this) was party to a deed to Baldwin
Giffard around 1225. I have lost my notes on this (I think Halsbury
mentioned it as well) but I think they were of Lundy Island as was Gules de
Marisco.
Finberg's "West Country Studies" has Thomas Archdeacon granting Morwell to a
Hereward de Marisco in 1262. He also mentions William de Marisco, brother
of Earl Reginald, natural son of Henry I, but this may be a connection too
far.
The Register of Bishop John de Drokensford has Nicholas de Langelond at
South Brent in 1310 and his son Roger, as rector of High Ham, in 1315.
I was reading recently that, in medieval days, boats came right up the Axe
to the ancient wharfs at Rackley, within two miles of Axbridge, centre of
operations of the Langlondes. I wonder if the Lundy Mariscos just sailed on
in.
I note your birth-place of Brent Knoll. I take it that this is the later
name for South Brent in order to distinguish it from the place of the same
name in Devon.
Ivor West
----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian Channing <ACha...@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Marisco was Freemen (Langlonde)
> The de Marisco of Huntspill family appeared in a pedigree which purported
> to show the connection between the "de Montmorency family" and the family
> of Morres, (changed to de Montmorency) of co Wexford, Ireland - but
> unfortunately (for me) this pedigree is thoroughly pulled to bits by J H
> Round (see CP Vol IX Appendix I, ) The following is from Chart D on page
> 67 of that appendix:
>
> ...
> Geoffroi de Montmorency de Marisco, Lord of Thorney and Huntspill; d 1118
m
> Richilde, dau of de Gautier of Douai and whom came to England with Matilda
> of Flanders. They left
>
> Robert de Marisco, living 1139; died in Lucca returning from Palestine; m
> Lucia d of Alexander d'Alneto. Epitaph in Bath Abbey. They left
>
> Jordan de Marisco, of Huntspill, living 1179; bur in Bath Abbey; m?
>
> 1) William de Marisco, Lord of Huntspill; Peer of Realm 1229; bur in Bath;
> no issue
> 2)Geoffrey de Marisco, died 1245 in France; m1 Eva de Bermingham, m2 A
> sister of Hugh de Lacy. Geoffrey left issue.
>
> but I don't know if this is total or only part rubbish, are there any de
> Marisco's recorded at Bath Abbey?
>
> Adrian (NB my place of birth -Brent Knoll, Somerset)
>
>
> © Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
>
Douglas Richardson
The man you are calling Geoffrey de Marisco should be properly
rendered Geoffrey de Marsh. Marisco is the Latin form of the
name Marsh and needs to be translated into English. The surname
Marsh is common in that period and can be found in records
throughout England.
The pedigree of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland, is a
bit tangled. As I recall, the only definite thing known about
his ancestry is that he was originally of Huntspill, Somerset,
and that he was the nephew of John Comyn, Archbishop of Dublin.
One source I found (namely Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals)
attempted to tie the Archbishop to the Comyn family of
Worcestershire. This might well be true. It is thought that
Archbishop is related to the Scottish Comyn family, as when
Geoffrey de Marsh went into exile, he stayed with the Earl of
Buchan in Scotland who was a Comyn. I suspect the kinship
between the Justiciar and Archbishop's family and the Scottish
Comyns is probably a distant connection. For starters, I
recommend you consult the biographies of Geoffrey de Marisco and
John Comyn in the DBB. The DNB discusses the involvement of
Geoffrey de Marsh with the Scottish Comyns.
Regardless, it appears that the Justiciar is descended from a
certain Geoffrey de Marsh/Marisco who was holding property
(evidently Huntspill, Somerset) in 1166. I found the 1166
Geoffrey mentioned in Red Book of the Exchequer. I am uncertain
if this Geoffrey was the Justiciar's father or grandfather but
he certainly would be ancestral to the Justiciar.
There is also an early Marsh/Marisco suit in the Curia Regis
Rolls which mentions the Justiciar's relatives. I don't have
the suit in front of me, but, as I recall, the case mentions a
property in Somersetshire which the Marsh family held. The suit
sets out a pedigree, but I don't recall the specifics.
Lastly, the historian, F. Maurice Powicke, discusses the Marsh
family's ownership of Lundy Island in one of his books. I
forget the actual title but that should be easy to find.
I hope this helps your search. Best always, Douglas Richardson
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <zV%L4.1100$OO6.1...@nnrp4.clara.net>, "Ivor West"
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Francisco Antonio Doria
>The man you are calling Geoffrey de Marisco should be properly
>rendered Geoffrey de Marsh. Marisco is the Latin form of the
>name Marsh and needs to be translated into English.
Also mussels, in Portuguese. Oysters. Clams.
chico
The Peddler
(1200-1230) fits into this family? They were ancestors of Margaret
Butler who married William Boleyn (d1505)
Thank yopu, DDC
Ivor West
Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0ce3de58...@usw-ex0103-023.remarq.com...
> Hi Ivor and Adrian:
>
> The man you are calling Geoffrey de Marisco should be properly rendered
>Geoffrey de Marsh.
I don't mind one way or the other but I don't think we need to be pedantic
about it. De Marisco is a well-established latinized alternative as is, say,
de Vivonia or de Fortibus.
>Marisco is the Latin form of the name Marsh...
I don't think that had escaped us. You must have missed my pun about
approaching Longland through the Marshes. More strictly, it is latinized
Middle English. The Latin form of Marsh would be de Paludis.
>...and needs to be translated into English.
Well, that depends on what you mean by English. In Middle English it would
be de Mareys as in the Huntspill manor name. On the other hand, if they
brought the name from Normandy it would be de Marais and would no more be
translated to Marsh than Bello Campo would be translated to Fairfield.
Anglicizing can certainly be carried too far - William de Fortibus > ME,
William de Forz > ModE, William the Brave? Is that how you like it?
> The surname Marsh is common in that period and can be found in records
> throughout England.
That's the trouble. There was plenty of marsh about at the time, especially
in Somerset. There may have been many unrelated Marshes with that particular
toponymic. I'm looking for one with a Brice in it.
> The pedigree of Geoffrey de Marsh, Justiciar of Ireland, is a
> bit tangled. As I recall, the only definite thing known about
> his ancestry is that he was originally of Huntspill, Somerset,
> and that he was the nephew of John Comyn, Archbishop of Dublin.
> One source I found (namely Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals)
> attempted to tie the Archbishop to the Comyn family of
> Worcestershire. This might well be true. It is thought that
> Archbishop is related to the Scottish Comyn family, as when
> Geoffrey de Marsh went into exile, he stayed with the Earl of
> Buchan in Scotland who was a Comyn. I suspect the kinship
> between the Justiciar and Archbishop's family and the Scottish
> Comyns is probably a distant connection. For starters, I
> recommend you consult the biographies of Geoffrey de Marisco and
> John Comyn in the DBB. The DNB discusses the involvement of
> Geoffrey de Marsh with the Scottish Comyns.
>
> Regardless, it appears that the Justiciar is descended from a
> certain Geoffrey de Marsh/Marisco who was holding property
> (evidently Huntspill, Somerset) in 1166. I found the 1166
> Geoffrey mentioned in Red Book of the Exchequer. I am uncertain
> if this Geoffrey was the Justiciar's father or grandfather but
> he certainly would be ancestral to the Justiciar.
He would probably be in his 50s in 1166. So, as DNB says Jordan was the
father, perhaps Geoffrey is the grandfather.
> There is also an early Marsh/Marisco suit in the Curia Regis
> Rolls which mentions the Justiciar's relatives. I don't have
> the suit in front of me, but, as I recall, the case mentions a
> property in Somersetshire which the Marsh family held. The suit
> sets out a pedigree, but I don't recall the specifics.
That could be useful if it mentioned more manors than Huntspill.
> Lastly, the historian, F. Maurice Powicke, discusses the Marsh
> family's ownership of Lundy Island in one of his books. I
> forget the actual title but that should be easy to find.
I forgot to mention the most notable Marsh/ de Marisco of all: Adam, born
c1200 in Bath, died c1258, nephew of Richard, Bishop of Durham. Oxford
mathematician and theologian, Adam taught Roger Bacon and was spiritual
director to Simon de Montfort (advocated that he wear a hair shirt from what
I recall - no wonder Simon was always on the go :).
Ivor West
Ivor West
The Peddler <DDCma...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:39025958...@prodigy.net...
Probably. She was the sister and coheir of a John de Marisco (Marreis).
Theobald married secondly Rohese of Croxden, daughter of Nicholas de Verdon.
Ivor West
Ivor West
Francisco Antonio Doria <fad...@rio.com.br> wrote in message
news:E12ioPp-0009VA-00@copa...
> 4/21/00 7:53 PM Douglas Richardson remarked:
>
> >name Marsh and needs to be translated into English.
>
> Also mussels, in Portuguese. Oysters. Clams.
>
> chico
>
And moriscos in Spanish but not to be confused with marisma. These
characters' connections were Hibernian not Iberian :) although I think some
of them would take anything in the sea - or on it.
Ivor West
Adrian Channing
prior to Ed III
I also see that at Domesday, Huntspill was held by Walter de Douai als
Walter de Duaco. This Walter m1 Eadgytha (English) widow of Hemming and
who was Walter's predecessor for Uffculme manor, Devon; and m2 Emma by whom
he had Geoffrey and Robert. He died c1107 when his fief was divided into
the honor of Brampton which went to his son Robert, and of Castle Cary
which went to Ralph Lovel whose relationship to Walter is not know.
I wonder if the de Marisco family of Huntspill were related to either of
the above?
WRT Lundy Island, I note that there is castle there called Marisco.
Adrian
© Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
Douglas Richardson
Regarding Joan de Marsh/Marisco, wife of Theobald le Boteler
(Butler), she is identified in one source I just consulted as
the sister and co-heiress of John de Mareys. Mareys is the
archaic English vernacular form of the modern surname, Marsh.
As for Joan's parentage, it appears she was one of the many
children of Geoffrey de Marsh/Marisco, Justiciar of Ireland.
This parentage is indicated by a plea roll item published by
Wrottesley, in which one of Joan's Butler descendants set forth
his ancestry back to Joan's father, claiming to be Geoffrey de
Marsh's lineal heir.
The following American colonial immigrants descend from Geofffry
de Marsh, the Justiciar, via his daughter, Joan le Boteler.
1. Robert Abell (two descents)
2. George & Nehemiah Blakiston
3. Edward Carleton, of Mass.
4. Grace Chetwode (two descents)
5. Jane Haviland, wife of William Torrey, of Mass.
6. Mary (Launce) Sherman, of Mass.
7. Thomas Lunsford
8. Anne & Katherine Marbury
9. John Nelson, of Mass.
10. Elizabeth Pelham, non-immigrating wife of Col. John
Humphrey, of Mass.
11. Herbert Pelham, of Mass.
12. Dorothy Stapleton, non-immigrating wife of Thomas Nelson, of
Mass.
13. Richard Saltonstall, of Mass.
14. John West, of Va.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <39025958...@prodigy.net>,
DDCma...@prodigy.net (The Peddler) wrote:
>Can anyone tell me if Joan de Marisco who married Theobald le
Boteler
>(1200-1230) fits into this family? They were ancestors of
Margaret
>Butler who married William Boleyn (d1505)
>
>Thank yopu, DDC
>
>
>
philip...@pop.net.ntl.com
be descended from them. My late great uncle, Harold Colquhoun Marris
researched our family all the way back to a knight who fought with William the
Conqueror in 1066. The line included the Mariscos (Marreys, sometimes Marsh),
including the Irish family and the English one (the latter owned Lundy Island
for many years). The Mariscos also had the manor of Huntspill (or Huntspill
Mareys) and also Camely (more precisely the manor of Cloud in Camely if memory
serves). I stayed in Marisco Castle on Lundy Island for a week a few years ago
and also recall that the island pub is still called the Marisco Tavern.
Regarding the Marris pedigree, my late great uncle had it accepted by the
College of Arms in 1940 and was granted arms. He also had the pedigree
published in the 1952 edition of Burke's Landed Gentry (see "Marris of Burton
Corner" in that edition).
From my recent investigations, the best references to the Marscos are:
1. The 1940 Marris pedigree held at the College of arms.
2. 1952 Burke's Landed Gentry (see sections on Marris)
3. Two long articles by Eric St. John Brooks published in the June and December
1931 volumes of "The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland".
This is a great piece of work that cites specific references from the PRO and
other places. I believe my great uncle and a cousin of his at the time were in
contact with Mr Brooks in the 1930s leading up to the pedigree's acceptance.
4. The History of Somersetshire by Rev. John Collinson (publ 1791) - there is a
copy in the PRO library. This book has a nice chapter on Huntspill and another
on Camely. Collinson mentions the original appearance of Marisco in these
places.
I should say that the pedigree does not indicate any family connection with
Walter de Douai who held Huntspill at the time of Domesday. Rather, the
Mariscos (according to the pedigree) were previously called de Merc (Merk,
Merck) and held various lands in Essex, Northants, Cambs - in all cases (again,
if memory serves) from Count Eustace of Boulogne and listed in Domesday.
Wasn't it John Horace Round in his book, Feudal England (published in the
1890s, again if memory serves), who talks about Count Eustace and "The
Montmorency Imposture" since that particular family had been implausibly
claiming descent from the Mariscos?.
In the last few days, a distant relative has passed me some old family letters
that refer to an old Marisco/Marris pedigree in the Heraldry Office in Dublin
Castle. In one of the letters, written in 1941, the writer was saying that the
Ulster King of Arms (would that have been Thomas Sadler?) had told her "it is
the longest pedigree he has". Looking at some artciles in the Genealogist
Magazine in 1954, I get the impression that this could be an old pedigree that
my late great uncle relied on as part of his proof to satisfy the College of
Arms and Burke's.
To cut a long story short, when I first saw my late uncle' work, I was
sufficiently intrigued to try and retrace his steps and find all the original
documents that he must have examined. So far, I have examined sufficient to be
happy with my line back to the mid 1500s (when my direct ancestor, John Marris
of South Carlton, Lincs, died and helpfully left an informative will). I next
have 200 years of earlier Lincolnshire Marrises to track down (maninly in
Ingoldmells, Lincs) before arriving at a Marisco (namely Herbert de Mariscos,
who died 1326-27).
Unlike you medieval lot, I am still working my way backwards but, if anyone
wishes to discuss the numerous Marisco references I have already amassed, I
would be more than pleased to hear from them. Since I look at newsgroups
rather infrequently, a copy of any follow-up to my email address
(pma...@acxiom.co.uk) would be appreciated.
Regards,
Phil Marris