Emma Meinill
Joema...@aol.com
Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of Robert
Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
Thank you very much for your help.
Joan Burdyck
Robert O'Connor
> Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
Robert
> Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
>
Here is what I have:
GILBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby, England., M -- . He
had issue:
Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
ROBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby., He held 5 knight's
fees of Ralph Fitz Hubert, of which Langley was one. M -- . Died by 1195.
He had issue: Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
1.Stephen.
2.Isabel, M 1st Sewallis de Shirley, of Shirley, Co. Derby. (In 1167 he
acknowledged himself as the holder of 9 knight's fees in Derbyshire. Died
before 1210) (See SHIRLEY). M 2nd John de Neville (Died before 1220). M
3rd Ralf de Mustard. Died 1228. Burke's P 1970, p 998
CTG IV, p 2
3.WILLIAM (2), of whom we presently.
4.Emma, M Matthew Hathersage (according to the Pipe Rolls he did homage for
the lands of his sister-in-law Isabel de Neville, Aug. 1228). Derby Arch
Kay Allen AG
Meinill of Whorlton, Yorkshire family.
Moriarty, Notebook XIV gives:
1. Emma.
2. Robert.
3. Isabel.
4. Gilbert, living 1130.
8. Robert, d. before 1112.
9. Gertrude Fossard.
18. Neel Fossard.
Farrer, Honrs and Knight's Fees, 1:175 etseq. gives another story.
Robert de Meisnil I held 5 fees in 1166.
1187, William del Maisnil amerced .5 mark.
1187, Robert de Meisnil II gave L5 for relief of 1 fee in honor of Peverell
which appeared to be Killamarsh.
1194, Sewell son of Henry of Edensor proffered 50 marks for having the dtrs. of
Robert de Maisnil with their land. It appears that he married Isabel, one of
the dtrs. When K. John ascended to the throne, he offered another 100 marks to
marry the sister Joan to his nephew. But the nephew died. Then Philip de
Ulecoate offered a bunch for Joan. And it appears he won her hand ( and lands).
In 1212, Philip and John de Neville of Rolleston, Notts., who was the second
husband of Isabel held the 1 fee in Killamarsh.
John de Neville d.s. p. in 1220. Then Isabel married Ralph Musard of Stavely,
Derbyshire , without license. So they gave 100 marks for this trespass.
Philip d.s.p. 1221. Isabel went through, it appears, 2 more husbands.
Isabel d. 1228, when her heirs were Matthew de de Havereshegge in right of his
mother and Alice de Crideling, (?) mother of Adam de Crideling.
Matthew d. 1259, when Nigel de Langeford and Matilda de Gousell were his next
heirs.
Nigel was son of Matthew's sister Cecily, and Matilda/Maud was probably another
sister.
Farrer then goes on to say that Isabel and Joan were dtrs. of Robert II, while
Matthew's mother was dtr. of Robert I.
Giles and William of Meynell Langley held land of these heirs. So it would
appear that there is a connection.
But it appears, that much more work is necessary to sort this out properly.
Kay Allen AG
Robert O'Connor wrote:
> > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> Robert
> > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> >
>
Kay Allen AG
p. 175 De Banco. Mich. 12 Ric. 2. m. 472. Derb.. Robert Dayncourt (Deyncourt
sued Nicholas de Goushulle, Kt. for the next presentation to the church or
Whitewell.
Robert de Meynill
|
____________________________________________________________________
|
| |
Isabella
Emma Cecily
presented H. 3.
| |
dsp
| Adam
______________________________________________
|
|
| | Adam
Matthew
Matilda Cecily presented H. 3.
presented H. 3. presented H. 3.
| |
dsp.
| Nigel Adam
John | presented E. 1
| Oliver enfeoffed Ralph
Walter | de Rye of his part
| John
Thomas presented Ed. 2.
presented Ed.
3. |
| Nicholas who
____________________________ enfeoffed Thomas
|
| Goushill of his part
Edward Nicholas Thomas
enfeoffed
Goushill, defendant
William Deyncourt
grandfather of the
plaintiff
More to come in next post. May I remind the members and auditors of this list
that these posts are not copyright-free. If these posts are utilized they
should be cited as from post of Kay Allen AG citing...
Kay
Allen AG
Robert O'Connor wrote:
> > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> Robert
> > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> >
>
Sutliff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
<snip>
> Matthew d. 1259, when Nigel de Langeford and Matilda de Gousell were
his next
> heirs.
> Nigel was son of Matthew's sister Cecily, and Matilda/Maud was
probably another
> sister.
<snip>
Would this be Maud de Hathersage, wife of Walter de Goushill of
Hoveringham, Notts and ancestors of Sir Robert de Goushill (d. 1403)?
H.
D. Spencer Hines
May I recommend that you actually append a copyright statement to each
post?
People do get careless.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Having taught in a university history department for more than 36 years
now, I would seek objectivity from anyone on the street before asking an
academic colleague in history." Norman Ravitch, Professor of History,
University of California, Riverside in _ The Wall Street Journal _ , 5
Nov 1998, p. A23.
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
Vires et Honor.
"Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B4C909A...@pacbell.net...
Kay Allen AG
De Banco Roll. Hillary. 9 Ed. 2. m. 2 dorso.
Derby. Christiana de Ry [probably related to Ralph who was enfeoffed by Adam.]
sues Nicholas de Long ford and Walter de Goushull for the nex presentati on to
the Church of Whytewelle, and gives this pedigree:
_________________________________________________________________
|
| |
Robert de Meignill
Emma Cecilia
|
| |
Isabella living ___________________________________
Adam
temp. H. 3 |
| | |
dsp Matthew
Cecilia Matilda Adam
dsp
| | |
Nigel John Adam
| |
Oliver Walter
| de Goushull
John
|
Nicholas de Longford
The following is fron The Genealogist, vol. ?, p. 145 "Pedigrees from the
Plea-Rolls, etc" It is not in Wrottesley's book, that I could see.
[Fo. 14b.] Esson' et pl'ita coram Rege J. nescit' annus.
Leic. Sewall fil' Henrici et Isabell' uxor ejus, et Phus {~ over u} de Ulcote
et
Johanna uxor ejus, petunt v' Prior' Hospital' Jerlm ij. caruc' terre cum ptin
}~ over p and n} in Danby [Dalby on the Woulds.]
Gilb'tus de Meysnel a Conquestu.
|
Rob'tus vixit temp'e R, H. I.
|
Rob'tus vixit temp'e R. H. II.
|
______________________________
| |
Isabell' petens. Johanna petens.
This may be the same Meinill family showing a Leciestershire land holding.
Kay Allen AG
Copyright
Robert O'Connor wrote:
> > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> Robert
> > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> >
>
Kay Allen AG
K.
Rosie Bevan
I think two generations may be confused here. Mardi Carter, MichaelAnne
Guido and myself have just completed a study of the Longford family and we
found the following.
Isabel and Joan Meynell are assumed to daughters and heirs of Robert fil
Robert de Meynell whom Sewal fil Henry had custody, though I have never seen
it stated. Joan died s.p. in 1226 after 4 marriages when Isabel was found to
be her heir. Isabel died s.p. in 1228 after 3 marriages when her cousins
were found to be her heirs. These were Mathew Hathersage and Alicia de
Cridling.( Pipe Roll 72 313 12 Hen III Mathew de Hathersage and Alicia de
Criddeling 200m for having seizin of the land of Isabel Meisnill, cousin of
the said Mathew and Alice, which was held of the king in capite)
This means the descent would go like this
1.GILBERT de MEYNELL (of Dalby, Leics.?)
2.ROBERT de MEYNELL in 1162 held 5 fees of Barlborough, Whitewell,
Clune, Stretton, Egstow, and Hanley
3.ROBERT de MEYNELL paid 100s relief for one knight's fee of the
Honour of Peverel in 1186 d.s.p.m.1194
4.ISABEL (c1182-d.s.p.1228)
+ Sewal fil Henry d.c 1210 (Pipe no 40 r6 6 Ric I 1195 Sewal fil
Henry 50 pounds for having the daughters of Robert de Maisnil and their
lands.)
+ John de Neville (Pipe No 56 r 12 12 John (1210) New Oblations
John de Nevill 700m for his passage, and for having to wife Isabella, the
widow of Sewell fil Henry, with her whole inheritance and dower ; H de
Neville and Philip de Ulecotes are bail for 300m.) d. by 1220
+ Ralph Musard (Pipe No 70 r 11 10 Henry III 1225 "Ralph Musard
15m for having the land which was Walter de Godardsvill's and Johanna, his
wife, sister of Isabelle, wife of the said Ralph, and of whom Isabel was
next heir when the king took the homage of the said Ralph, and conceded by
the fine that he should have seizin of the said land, by the pledge of Wm de
Meinel 3m, Hy de Cubbele 3m, Roger fil Propositus 3m, Roger Parmenter 2m, Wm
fil Hugh 2m and John de Bosco 2m)
4. JOAN d.s.p. 1226
+ Sewal de Munjoy (Pipe no 45 r 15 1 John 1199 Sewell fil Henry
100 and 1 dextria and 1 palfrey which Com G ought to have received for the
marriage of his sister Isabelle to Sewell, his nephew (nepos)
+ Philip de Ulecote (Pipe no 46 r12 John 1200 Philip de Ulecotes
100 pounds and 1 dextria for having to wife Johanna the sister [in law] of
Sewell fil Henry)
+ Oliver de Albini d.c.1225
+ Walter de Godarvil (Pipe no.70 r 11 10 Hen III 1225 Walter
Godardvill owes 200m for having Joan to wife as mentioned in roll 8)
3.WILLIAM DE MEYNELL (William fil Robert)
4.EMMA DE MEYNELL
+ Mathew de Hathersage
5.MATHEW de HATHERSAGE d.s.p. 1259
+ Annora Mark, da of Philip Mark
5. CECILIA de HATHERSAGE
+ NIGEL de LONGFORD (1205- (Pipe Roll 104 r17 44 Hen
III 1259 New Oblations
Nigel de Langford and Matilde de Gousle, next heirs of Mathew Hathersage)
5.MATILDA de HATHERSAGE
+ Gousell
4.CECILIA de MEYNELL
+ ADAM de CRIDLING
5.ADAM de CRIDLING
My understanding of property law in the early 13th century is that if
Cecilia and Emma Meynell had been sisters of Isabel and Joan, their rights
as heirs on the death of Joan would have been recognised. However they are
not mentioned at all.
Their placement poses some difficulty because if they are sisters of Robert
(aunts of Isabel and Joan), then they can not be siblings of William Meynell
ancestor of the Meynells of Langley Meynell as the pedigree stands, for he
and his descendants would have been heirs to Isabel too. William fil Robert
is listed in the Scutage of Knight's fees of 3 John at 5 fees which
indicates he was heir to Robert I Meynell with the Meynell inheritance
intact. Could it be that Emma and Cecilia were actually daughters and heirs
of William fil Robert de Meisnel? If this is so then there is a flaw in the
accepted Meinell pedigree for Hugh fl 1251 could not be (legitimate) son of
William. In addition it is clear that it is at this point that the 5 knights
fees disappear from Meinell hands and divided between (Hathersage >Longford
+ Goussel) + (Cridling) hands. Chronologically Emma and Cecilia are
contemporaries of Isabel and Joan, which has added to the confusion.
I have just noticed Kay's messages come up. Thanks Kay. The pedigree from
the Plea Rolls which is agrees with the evidence presented here. The other
Banco Roll pedigree presented in 9 Edw II (about 80 years after the deaths
of Joan and Isabel) as far as I can make out appears incorrect.
I would welcome comments on any flaws in this discussion.
Caveat Emptor. If anyone copies this pedigree, then they do so at their own
risk!
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert O'Connor" <rjuoc...@btinternet.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
>
> > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> Robert
> > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> >
>
Kay Allen AG
and as aunts of Isabel and Joan. There is no William to be seen anywhere.
Please see my earlier posts.
Kay Allen AG
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> > Robert
> > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> > >
> >
Rosie Bevan
Yes, I noticed there was no mention of William which is a bit of a
conundrum. If that is the case, then William de Meynell (father of Hugh fl
1251) cannot be son of Robert I as stated in Burke's Landed Gentry and in
Meynell of Langley Meynell pedigrees, or his issue would have been heir to
Robert too. William and his issue must be descendants of Gilbert Meynell.
The Meynells continued holding land of Mathew Hathersage and his descendants
for in Kirby's Quest 22-25 Hen III 1238-1240, there is mention under
Totingley of Egidius Meynell holding of William de Meynell his brother for
one third of a knight's fee. William held of the heirs of Mathew de
Hathersage, and they of the king in chief.
I am dubious about the early part of the pedigree given for the presentation
to Whitewell church. For reasons given in my last post, Emma and Cecily were
unlikely to have been sisters of Isabel and Joan. In addition, this pedigree
was recorded some 80-90 years after the deaths of Isabel and Joan and liable
to error. The other pedigree, however is contemporary, and therefore more
likely to be accurate. There is also the problem of determining the meaning
of the word "Consanguineas". If we take it literally then Mathew de
Hathersage and Matilda Goushill would have been cousins of Isabel Meinell.
Constructing the pedigree, then
1.GILBERT de MEYNELL (of Dalby, Leics.?) married an heir of Ralph Fitz
Hubert
2.ROBERT de MEYNELL in 1162 held 5 fees of Barlborough, Whitewell,
Clune, Stretton, Egstow, and Hanley
3. EMMA DE MEYNELL
+ Mathew de Hathersage
4. MATHEW de HATHERSAGE d.s.p. 1259
+ Annora Mark, da of Philip Mark
4. CECILIA de HATHERSAGE
+ Nigel de Longford (1205- (Pipe Roll 104 r17 44 Hen
III 1259 New Oblations Nigel de Langford and Matilde de Gousle, next heirs
of Mathew Hathersage)
4.MATILDA de HATHERSAGE
+ Walter Goushill
3.CECILIA de MEYNELL
+ ADAM de CRIDLING
4.ADAM de CRIDLING
3.ROBERT de MEYNELL paid 100s relief for one knight's fee of
the
Honour of Peverel in 1186 d.s.p.m.1194
4.ISABEL (c1182-d.s.p.1228)
+ Sewal fil Henry d.c 1210 (Pipe no 40 r6 6 Ric I 1195 Sewal fil
Henry 50 pounds for having the daughters of Robert de Maisnil and their
lands.)
+ John de Neville (Pipe No 56 r 12 12 John (1210) New Oblations
John de Nevill 700m for his passage, and for having to wife Isabella, the
widow of Sewell fil Henry, with her whole inheritance and dower ; H de
Neville and Philip de Ulecotes are bail for 300m.) d. by 1220
+ Ralph Musard (Pipe No 70 r 11 10 Henry III 1225 "Ralph Musard
15m for having the land which was Walter de Godardsvill's and Johanna,
hiswife, sister of Isabelle, wife of the said Ralph, and of whom Isabel was
next heir when the king took the homage of the said Ralph, and conceded by
the fine that he should have seizin of the said land, by the pledge of Wm de
Meinel 3m, Hy de Cubbele 3m, Roger fil Propositus 3m, Roger Parmenter 2m, Wm
fil Hugh 2m and John de Bosco 2m)
4. JOAN d.s.p. 1226
+ Sewal de Munjoy (Pipe no 45 r 15 1 John 1199 Sewell fil Henry
100 and 1 dextria and 1 palfrey which Com G ought to have received for the
marriage of his sister Isabelle to Sewell, his nephew (nepos)
+ Philip de Ulecote (Pipe no 46 r12 John 1200 Philip de Ulecotes
100 pounds and 1 dextria for having to wife Johanna the sister [in law] of
Sewell fil Henry)
+ Oliver de Albini d.c.1225
+ Walter de Godarvil (Pipe no.70 r 11 10 Hen III 1225 Walter
Godardvill owes 200m for having Joan to wife as mentioned in roll 8)
How does this strike you?
Cheers
Rosie
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen AG" <all...@pacbell.net>
> > > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill,
wife of
> > > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter
of
> > > Robert
> > > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional
information.
> > > >
> > >
Kay Allen AG
court case making them aunts is probably correct. I sent three court cases, one
of which makes Emma and Cecily sisters of Robert, father of Isabel and Joan.
That one is dated 9 Ed. 2., Hillary Term.
William is probably a cousin of Robert I, but I am not sure how.
K
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> > > > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill,
> wife of
> > > > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter
> of
> > > > Robert
> > > > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional
> information.
> > > > >
> > > >
Rosie Bevan
pedigree which claims descent from Sewel fil Henry and Isabel de Meynell.
She most clearly died s.p. Sewal (Sewallis) must have had a previous wife.
Cheers
> > > > > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill,
> > wife of
> > > > > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the
daughter
> > of
> > > > > Robert
> > > > > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional
> > information.
> > > > > >
> > > > >