Muhammad's family in Europe.
Francisco Antonio Doria
>
> Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
> >
> > There is a documentally attested character, Abu-Nazar Lovesendes, who
> > lived near Oporto in northern Portugal and founded the monastery of Santo
> > Tirso de Ribadave. He and some members of his immediate family were
> > either named or styled `cid' (about one century before El Cid Campeador), that
> > is `as-Sayyid,' a style usually given to members of the Ummayad family. A
> > 13th century Portuguese lineage book - four centuries later - describes
> > him as a gggson of `Aboail rey de Cordova,' that is, Abdallah, emir of
> > Cordova. Dates are consistent, as well as the mother's name, Zaira bint
> > Zaidan ibn Zaid (or Sayd), the last one being son or son-in-law to
> > Abdallah. (Sayd might be just a title, `lord').
> >
> > Recent research (from the 60s onwards) made by Jose' Mattoso has
> > established with great certainty their descendants, the `da Maya' family
> > (Maya = Ummaya?) which ruled over portions of Northern Portugal. Those
> > descendants include the royal family (Braganc,a, in Portugal and Brazil)
> > and lots of less exalted families. About ten million people.
> >
> > Who knows about other branches of the Ummaya in Portugal/Spain? In
> > Europe? Our local princes, the Orle'ans-Braganc,a, are very proud of
> > being able to trace their ancestry to Muhammad through this guy Abu-Nazar.
>
> I do not recall an Abu-Nazar in the works of Mattoso (in what work does
> he use this form?). He does trace the descent of Maya from an Alboazar
> Lovesindes, whohe takes no farther.
Main source for the da Maya family is the Sancto Thyrso document, which refers to the way the
heirs of - I'll soon explain the name - Abu-Nazar Lovesendes divided among themselves their
inheritance. It is dated c. 1090, but only known thru a 15th century copy, published by dom
Antonio Caetano de Sousa in his *Historia Genealogica...* (Genealogy of Portugal's Royal House).
There one reads `Abuuazar' which I take to be a mispelling for `Abunazar,' which is a name that
makes some sense. (Father of the General, or, the Great General.) There are several members of the
Ummaya household with that name. On N for U recall that we are dealing with an uncial manuscript.
The actuall spelling Abuuazar is meaningless. Alboazar is a later corruption.
> This founder of Maya has
> traditionally been identified with an illegitimate son of Ramiro II of
> Leon by the sister of Alboazar, Lord of Gaia and son of Zaidan ibn Zaid
> (this mistress of Ramiro would then be your Zaira, although she is
> styled Ortiga in late traditional sources). This Zaidan is then made
> son(-in-law) of Abdallah. Here then we have your tradition.
That's it. (But for the fact that Zaid, and not Zaydan, was the son-in-law or actual son.) It is
recorded in the `Livro de Linhagens do Conde
Dom Pedro,' a late 13th century or early 14th century document. (Count Pedro's Lineage Book.)
> Rodriguez,
> in his biography of Ramiro II, briefly investigated this tradition. It
> has its origin in a poetic source called "Miragaia" (or something like
> that), which describes the marriage/relationship of Ramiro with the
> sister of Alboazar, through whom he came to control the land around
> Gaia, and passed this claim to their son Ordono. In later versions of
> the tradidion, Ordono became Audonio, and even Antonio, before finally
> fixing on the name of the uncle, Alboazar.
Not quite so. The attested name is Abuuazar, or Abu-Nazar. You must also add that most narratives
about medieval characters fit into some archetype. I
usually parallel that to the homogeneity in their depiction (I mean, paintings, drawings) of
historical characters. They all look the same in the manuscripts, with the same facial
expressions, the same bodily attitude. As if everybody had to fit into some larger, socially
sanctioned framework. No individualities.
> (He does not address the
> association of this tradition with the Maya family, and its founder
> Alboazar (Lovesindes), but with the strict patronymic system in place at
> the time, we can safely reject any tradition that Ramiro II was father
> of this Lovesindes.
For sure. Correct patronymic is Lovasendes or Lovesendes. Probable etimology: from Chlodweg +
`endo' suffix (cf. Trutesendo/Trutesendes), which is a present participle/adjectival form.
Chlodweg is Frankish. So Sir Lovesendo, Abu=Nazar's daddy, was probably a Frankish knight. He also
most probably had a rather high social standing. I must say I don't believe that this Abu-Nazar
Lovesendes would grow so wealthy in a single generation.
> I just recently got my hands on a recent literary
> deconstruction of the Miragaia, and it addresses its connection to the
> Maya. I will dig out the reference.) As to this muslim wife/mistress
> being mother of Ordono III, this can be rejected, since the work of Saez
> clearly shows his wife was a member of one of the Galician noble
> families, which attribution is confirmed by the Codice de Roda.
I have a facsimilar copy of the Codice de Roda. Makes no reference to the da Maya, but notices a
non-Muslim (I think she was Basque) wife of Abdallah. That is known fact.
> As to the chronology, at least one source (Turton) has suggested that
> the chronology is long even for Zaidan to be grandson of Abdallah, and
> suggests that he was great-grandson. As many here know, Turton was the
> kind to accept some pretty unlikely stuff, so for him to balk, there
> must have been serious chronological dificulties, but I have not
> followed up his comments to their original source. (I have looked in
> other sources for Zaidan, and have been unable to identify him outsde of
> the Miragaia tradition.
Forget your source; it is wrong. Abu-Nazar Lovesendes had his floruit (hypothetical) when he
founded Santo Tirso (978). So I suppose that he was born c. 930/40. And there were five
generations between Abdallah and Abu-Nazar Lovesendes, if we accept the tradition.
>
> Finally, addressing the use of Cid - Lord by the family, this was not
> uncommon among mozarab families, and can be found as a given name in
> Portugal and Toledo. The most famous owner of the title, Rodrigo Diaz
> de Vivar, has no known muslim blood, so the term was clearly not limited
> to the Ummayad family.
Recall that the Campi Doctor flourished in the late 11th century, and that his Muslim experiences
dealt with Taifa dynasts. I must say I NEVER saw `Cid,' `Sayyid,' or the like used as a first name
either in lineage books or in published 9th-10th century documents from people in that area.
Moreover recall that Mattoso himself believes that (one of the) Cid Abu-Nazar was in fact called
Toderedo or Trutesendo. Cid is a formal style, like dom `lord, sir.'
NB: I'm using the last (1985) edition of Mattoso's essay collection.
>
> I would be interested in discussing this further. The critical region of
> the pedigree is the portion immediately prior to Alboazar Lovesindes,
> and I would be interested in any source which reliably refers to his
> origins.
I don't read Arabic. Has anyone tried the contemporay Arabic sources about Muslim overlords in the
Oporto region? I sure don't know.
> The Maya family can also probably be found among the ancestors
> of Sancha de Ayala, who brought much spanish (and through Barroso, some
> portuguese) blood to the english nobility.
Do you have the connection? Barroso? I have a good pedigree of that family. I'll take a look at it.
>
> taf
>
>
A final word: I became interested in that when I saw some piece of news about the Queen of England
being proud of her descent from the Prophet. Later I referred to that in a talk I gave, which was
attended by the Countess of Paris, at Rio's College of Genealogists. She looked absent-minded all
the time up to the moment when I mentioned the Prophet's lineage. Then she said, `I know that we
come from him thru Zaida (Alfonso VI's Muslim wife), but it is said that we also reach him through
Blanche de Castille.'
As far as I can tell, that's false. Zaida had two children by Alfonso VI, both deceased while
infants. (The boy, dom Sancho, died when he was eight, fighting a battle next to his father.)
That's also historical fact. I couldn't trace any other connection (at least obvious, or
reasonably certain) along the ancestors of Blanche de Castille.
And Zaida was a Taifa princess, with no known Ummayad ancestry.
So I turned to the da Maya family. They were `infanc,o~es,' infanzones, let us say, rural
overlords of high local rank but low rank within the Castilian nobility. (Hierarchy is: comites,
counts; ricos-homens, rich men, great barons; and infanzones.) Many of them act as mayorinos -
local representatives - for the kings of Leon.
As I said, that's a good bet. A very good bet, really. And tell me, why should a 13th century monk
try to emphasize the heretical origins of a powerful Christian family?
Chico Doria
Todd A. Farmerie
I am going to go back to my notes and see what I have on some of this,
but I will address some of it now.
Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
> Main source for the da Maya family is the Sancto Thyrso document, which refers to the way the
> heirs of - I'll soon explain the name - Abu-Nazar Lovesendes divided among themselves their
> inheritance. It is dated c. 1090, but only known thru a 15th century copy, published by dom
> Antonio Caetano de Sousa in his *Historia Genealogica...* (Genealogy of Portugal's Royal House).
Give me volume and page for this so I needn't request all 12 volumes
through ILL.
> > Rodriguez,
> > in his biography of Ramiro II, briefly investigated this tradition. It
> > has its origin in a poetic source called "Miragaia" (or something like
> > that), which describes the marriage/relationship of Ramiro with the
> > sister of Alboazar, through whom he came to control the land around
> > Gaia, and passed this claim to their son Ordono. In later versions of
> > the tradidion, Ordono became Audonio, and even Antonio, before finally
> > fixing on the name of the uncle, Alboazar.
>
> Not quite so. The attested name is Abuuazar, or Abu-Nazar.
Not in the Miragaia tradition it's not.
It is not clear to me exactly at what point in the development of this
tradition involving Ramiro's acquisition of Gaia that the link to Maya
was made - whether it was a late graft based on the similarity of the
name of the Maya founder with that of Ramiro's "brother-in-law", or if
Ramiro and his son Ordono were superimposed over top of an existing Maya
tradition (where the latter the case it would require Abuuazar (or
whatever) being replaced by Ordono, then Audonio, etc. and back to
Alboazar).
> > (He does not address the
> > association of this tradition with the Maya family, and its founder
> > Alboazar (Lovesindes), but with the strict patronymic system in place at
> > the time, we can safely reject any tradition that Ramiro II was father
> > of this Lovesindes.
>
> For sure. Correct patronymic is Lovasendes or Lovesendes. Probable etimology: from Chlodweg +
> `endo' suffix (cf. Trutesendo/Trutesendes), which is a present participle/adjectival form.
> Chlodweg is Frankish. So Sir Lovesendo, Abu=Nazar's daddy, was probably a Frankish knight. He also
> most probably had a rather high social standing. I must say I don't believe that this Abu-Nazar
> Lovesendes would grow so wealthy in a single generation.
And yet if so, where is this Lovesindo in Portuguese records? Mattoso
does not mention finding any candidates for the father, and a Frankish
knight of wealth is unlikely to show up on the Portuguese border at this
time. What was the 10th century frankish form of this name (what was
Louis IV or Louis V called)?
> > I just recently got my hands on a recent literary
> > deconstruction of the Miragaia, and it addresses its connection to the
> > Maya. I will dig out the reference.) As to this muslim wife/mistress
> > being mother of Ordono III, this can be rejected, since the work of Saez
> > clearly shows his wife was a member of one of the Galician noble
> > families, which attribution is confirmed by the Codice de Roda.
>
> I have a facsimilar copy of the Codice de Roda. Makes no reference to the da Maya, but notices a
> non-Muslim (I think she was Basque) wife of Abdallah. That is known fact.
It does not mention Maya (has no reason to) but if I recall correctly,
it makes an off-handed comment about Ordono's mother being a Galician,
which is all I was refering to.
> A final word: I became interested in that when I saw some piece of news about the Queen of England
> being proud of her descent from the Prophet. Later I referred to that in a talk I gave, which was
> attended by the Countess of Paris, at Rio's College of Genealogists. She looked absent-minded all
> the time up to the moment when I mentioned the Prophet's lineage. Then she said, `I know that we
> come from him thru Zaida (Alfonso VI's Muslim wife), but it is said that we also reach him through
> Blanche de Castille.'
>
> As far as I can tell, that's false. Zaida had two children by Alfonso VI, both deceased while
> infants. (The boy, dom Sancho, died when he was eight, fighting a battle next to his father.)
> That's also historical fact.
Nothing in history is a fact :). There is a strong subcurrent (and in
recent spanish work, it is much more than that) which considers Queen
Isabella, mother of daughters Elvira Alfonso (II) and Sancha Alfonso to
be identical to Zaida/Isabella. If this is the case, then there is a
Zaida descent through Elvira's italian marriage (I cannot trace any
descendants for Sancha beyond the 4th generation, but they may exist in
a younger branch of Haro). What is your reference for a daughter of
Zaida (or a second child of either gender)? The recent accounts that I
have seen usually limit Alfonso to 6 children: Elvira (I) and Teresa by
Jimena Munoz; Urraca by Constance; Elvira (II) and Sancha by "Queen
Isabella"; and Sancho by Zaida/Isabella.
> I couldn't trace any other connection (at least obvious, or
> reasonably certain) along the ancestors of Blanche de Castille.
There are none that stand up to scruitiny. It could be that this
results from Zaida confusion, since I have seen sources which wrongly
state that Urraca was her daughter.
taf
do...@pub1.lncc.br
Let me address some of Todd's comments;
1) The Santo Tirso Document. Has been published by Alexandre Herculano
too. You can look it up in the proofs volume's of dom Antonio's work. As
I said, it is a 15th century transcription of an 11th century document.
2) There is independent confirmation of the name *Abuuazar*, in the
disputes between Lovesendo Abuuazar and some overlord of his. (Lovesendo
was obviously Abuuazar - I'm using the `official' transliteration -
Lovesendes son.) Mattoso quotes it. There is a third document that refers
to Abuuazar Lovesendes. Finally, Mattoso, when discussing Trutesendo
Abu-Nazar Cid, uses that last spelling. In thge document of S.T. one has
an enumeration that begins `De Cide Abunazar...', that is, `About Cid
Abunazar...'
So, please, even if, if we follow Karl Gloeckners injunction - Aller
Genealogie ist im Grunde Hypothese - it is VERY WELL ATTESTED that the
guy's name was Abuuazar or Abunazar.
3) On the other hand I yesterday recalled that there is a documentally
attwested 11th century lady named Ilduara Cides. I'll take a closer look
at that.
My books aren't here. Right nbow I'm in Rio, suffering under a heat wave
of over 100 degrees and will stay for the weekend in Petropolis, a nearby
town, the former summer Imperial Capital. (Sounds like Star Wars, doesn't
it?) Much more pleasant climate. My books are there. I'll then ponder
Todd's remarks and come back on Monday.
On Zaida: it's a paper by a Spanish historian on the conquest of Toledo.
Has been published in Portuguese in a collection of essays about Toledo.
In my opinion it settles the question about Zaida.
One question: I don't have the Europaeische Stammtafeln. Do they say
anything about the Ummayad descent?
Chico Doria
Todd A. Farmerie
do...@pub1.lncc.br wrote:
>
> 2) There is independent confirmation of the name *Abuuazar*, in the
> disputes between Lovesendo Abuuazar and some overlord of his. (Lovesendo
> was obviously Abuuazar - I'm using the `official' transliteration -
> Lovesendes son.) Mattoso quotes it. There is a third document that refers
> to Abuuazar Lovesendes. Finally, Mattoso, when discussing Trutesendo
> Abu-Nazar Cid, uses that last spelling. In thge document of S.T. one has
> an enumeration that begins `De Cide Abunazar...', that is, `About Cid
> Abunazar...'
>
> So, please, even if, if we follow Karl Gloeckners injunction - Aller
> Genealogie ist im Grunde Hypothese - it is VERY WELL ATTESTED that the
> guy's name was Abuuazar or Abunazar.
Well, based on Mattoso, Abuuazar is attested several times in charters,
but Abunazar only once (the one reference to Cidi Abunazar), so
something that would have been represented as Abuuazar in charter Latin
is well attested. What the original form was is hardly worth arguing,
unless it is to be used as evidence in a larger theory. Mattoso prefers
Aboazar, but this may be in deference to the traditional assignment.
> 3) On the other hand I yesterday recalled that there is a documentally
> attwested 11th century lady named Ilduara Cides. I'll take a closer look
> at that.
Yes, but unfortunately Mattoso says nothing conclusive (that I could
find) regarding her father, so that it was a nickname cannot be
excluded. I am still trying to locate the other examples I had in mind,
from mozarab Toledo.
> On Zaida: it's a paper by a Spanish historian on the conquest of Toledo.
> Has been published in Portuguese in a collection of essays about Toledo.
> In my opinion it settles the question about Zaida.
Which question? About her having a second child, or about her being
Queen Isabella? From what you have said, I suspect that your source is
Palencia (or something like that, I am going from memory) in a
collection of articles regarding Alfonso VI and the mozarabes of
Toledo. His opinion (that Zaida was a mistress, and never married
Alfonso) contrasts with those of O'Reilly (who suggests that Zaida was a
"Queen Isabella" but not the "Queen Isabella" who was mother of the
daughters) and Jose Canal Sanchez-Pagin (who accepts Zaida as mother of
Elvira and Sancha). ES (? derived from Jaime Salazar Acha) also accepts
Zaida as the "Queen Isabella", and suggests that she was not only
daughter-in-law, but also niece of the Sevilla ruler.
> One question: I don't have the Europaeische Stammtafeln. Do they say
> anything about the Ummayad descent?
ES limits its iberian coverage to the christian dynasties.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
In article <34DA8A...@po.cwru.edu>, "Todd A. Farmerie"
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>> ... Lovasendes or Lovesendes. Probable etimology: from Chlodweg +
>> `endo' suffix (cf. Trutesendo/Trutesendes), which is a present
participle/adjectival form.
>> Chlodweg is Frankish. So Sir Lovesendo, Abu=Nazar's daddy, was probably
a Frankish knight. He also
>> most probably had a rather high social standing. I must say I don't
believe that this Abu-Nazar
>> Lovesendes would grow so wealthy in a single generation.
>
>And yet if so, where is this Lovesindo in Portuguese records? Mattoso
>does not mention finding any candidates for the father, and a Frankish
>knight of wealth is unlikely to show up on the Portuguese border at this
>time. What was the 10th century frankish form of this name (what was
>Louis IV or Louis V called)?
In tenth-century Catalonian charters those west Frankish kings are usually
named 'Ludovicus'. I can check some lemmatised name-indices for Frankish
regions in this period, but I don't know any precedents for three-root
constructions like *{"Chlod-" + "-weg[-]" + "-sind"} = Lovesind.
Nat Taylor
Xavier
As I am new on the list I suppose I lost the beginning of the theme.
Meanwhile I will try to add my little stone to this subjet I studied about
15 years ago.
The legend of the Mu hammed's descendants in the European kings came
partially of the complicated case of the numerous wives of Alfonso VI de
Castilla.
He was the son of Fernando Iº and his second wife Elvira-Sancia de Leon,
widow of Garcia II de Castilla.
He was born on June 1049 in Santiago de Compostela ( exact day unknown )
and married successively :
- about 1069 : Inés de Guzman, who wasn't the daughter of The Cid. Only one
son : Diego Fernandez de Cordoba, Señor de Baena. Grand grandfather of
Fernando IIº el Catolico. She died on the 6 of June 1078 and is buried in
Sahagún.
- in 1078 : Ximena, daughter de Nuño Rodriguez, conde de Guzman and of
Ximena Ordoñez. Annulled in 1080 but 2 children was born
- Elvira who married Raymond IV de Saint Gilles
- Teresa who married in 1094 Henri de Bourgogne-Portugal
Ximena died in 1128 in the convent of Ensinareda del Bierzo.
- about December 1080 : Constance de Bourgogne, daughter of Robert Iº le
Vieux and Hélie de Semur. She died in 1092. They had only one daughter :
Urraca, born in 1081, who married Raymond de Bourgogne and was the mother
of Alfonso VIIIº de Castilla.
- about 1093 : Berenguera de Toscane, who died in January 1098, without
descendant.
- about 1098 : Zaïda, baptised as Isabel. She was widow of Abou Nasir al
Fatha al Ma'mun who died on the 26 of March of 1090 in the battle of the
castle of Almodovar, fighting with the Christians against the Almoravids.
He was himself son of a Christian captive Imetad Romaika and of Mohammed
Al-Mutamid II (grandson of the first "taifa" of Seville). Before the
marriage of Alfonso VI and Zaida-Isabel was born their son Sancho de
Castilla who died in the "7 condes" battle of Uclés and is buried in the
monastery of Oño. Zaida-Isabel died on the 12 of September 1099, and is
buried in San Isodoro de Leon.
- at the end of 1099 : Isabelle de France, possibly bastard of Louis VI le
Gros, who died in 1107 and buried in San Isodoro de Leon. Two daughter :
Sancha who married Rodrigo Gonzalvo, conde de Lara, y Elvira who married
Roger king of Sicily and Naples.
- about 1108 Beatrice d'Aquitaine, daughter of Guillaume VI, duke of
Aquitaine and Mathilde de la Marche. Without descendant. When widow she
married Elie, comte du Mans, and came widow for the second time in July
1110.
Moreover Alfonso had a daughter Garcilisa, with Isabel ( another one ! )
countess of Mascón.
The confusion between the two Isabel come that Spain was using a different
calendar of the countries "north of the Pyrennées" with a 20 years
difference. The above dates are those used in the main parts of Europe, not
the Castillan dates of this time.
I hope that is no too long, and will help despite my "non-fluent" english.
Todd A. Farmerie
Xavier wrote:
>
> The legend of the Mu hammed's descendants in the European kings came
> partially of the complicated case of the numerous wives of Alfonso VI de
> Castilla.
>
> He was the son of Fernando Iº and his second wife Elvira-Sancia de Leon,
> widow of Garcia II de Castilla.
> He was born on June 1049 in Santiago de Compostela ( exact day unknown )
> and married successively :
>
> - about 1069 : Inés de Guzman, who wasn't the daughter of The Cid. Only one
> son : Diego Fernandez de Cordoba, Señor de Baena. Grand grandfather of
> Fernando IIº el Catolico. She died on the 6 of June 1078 and is buried in
> Sahagún.
No. Agnes was French (of Aquitaine if I recall correctly). She and
Alfonso had no children, presumably leading to their divorce (on the
grounds of a consanguity I have been unable to identify). She
subsequently remarried in France, I think to Helias of Maine (see below)
but that may have been the wife of Ramiro II of Aragon instead.
> - in 1078 : Ximena, daughter de Nuño Rodriguez, conde de Guzman and of
> Ximena Ordoñez. Annulled in 1080 but 2 children was born
> - Elvira who married Raymond IV de Saint Gilles
> - Teresa who married in 1094 Henri de Bourgogne-Portugal
> Ximena died in 1128 in the convent of Ensinareda del Bierzo.
Never married. Jimena was daughter of Munio Gonzalez, founder (it would
seem) of the Lara family, from which Guzman appears also to have come.
The mother was not Jimena Ordonez. I will repost my table of Teresa's
ancestors soon, which will clarify this. Elvira married as her second
husband the Count Fernando Fernandez, and from her daughter descends the
Osorio family.
> - about December 1080 : Constance de Bourgogne, daughter of Robert Iº le
> Vieux and Hélie de Semur. She died in 1092. They had only one daughter :
> Urraca, born in 1081, who married Raymond de Bourgogne and was the mother
> of Alfonso VIIIº de Castilla.
She also married Alfonso I of Aragon, and had relationships with Gomez
Gonzalez (a cousin of Munio Gonzalez), and with Pedro Gonzalez de Lara,
nephew of Jimena Munoz.
> - about 1093 : Berenguera de Toscane, who died in January 1098, without
> descendant.
No Berenguera. This wife was Bertha/Alberta, and was of Tuscany.
> - about 1098 : Zaïda, baptised as Isabel. She was widow of Abou Nasir al
> Fatha al Ma'mun who died on the 26 of March of 1090 in the battle of the
> castle of Almodovar, fighting with the Christians against the Almoravids.
> He was himself son of a Christian captive Imetad Romaika and of Mohammed
> Al-Mutamid II (grandson of the first "taifa" of Seville). Before the
> marriage of Alfonso VI and Zaida-Isabel was born their son Sancho de
> Castilla who died in the "7 condes" battle of Uclés and is buried in the
> monastery of Oño. Zaida-Isabel died on the 12 of September 1099, and is
> buried in San Isodoro de Leon.
IF they married, then either it was after the following
Elizabeth/Isabel, or they were the same person. If she married Alfonso,
she did not die 1099, but 1107.
> - at the end of 1099 : Isabelle de France, possibly bastard of Louis VI le
> Gros, who died in 1107 and buried in San Isodoro de Leon. Two daughter :
> Sancha who married Rodrigo Gonzalvo, conde de Lara, y Elvira who married
> Roger king of Sicily and Naples.
>
> - about 1108 Beatrice d'Aquitaine, daughter of Guillaume VI, duke of
> Aquitaine and Mathilde de la Marche. Without descendant. When widow she
> married Elie, comte du Mans, and came widow for the second time in July
> 1110.
I don't think Beatrice has been identified, but the wife of Helias was
not Beatrice, but Agnes.
>
> Moreover Alfonso had a daughter Garcilisa, with Isabel ( another one ! )
> countess of Mascón.
What is the source of this information? It is not found in the
contemporary records.
taf