HOLCOMBE/FARINGDON,DEVONSHIRE
WJHolcombe
Seeking info on Symon de Holcombe, Faringdon, Devon, who carried the
banner of Britiric (Aldorman) at the Battle of Hastings 1066. Will share
what I have.
Please e-mail me wjhol...@aol.com
Todd A. Farmerie
WJHolcombe wrote:
>
> Seeking info on Symon de Holcombe, Faringdon, Devon, who carried the
> banner of Britiric (Aldorman) at the Battle of Hastings 1066. Will share
> what I have.
It is extremely unlikely that anyone named Simon, or anyone with a
surname for that matter, was at the Battle of Hastings on the English
side. This is likely to be invention.
James Edward Maule
"de Holcombe" is not necessarily a surname. It could be simply a
geographical identifier (which evolved into a surname). In my own
family there are several instances of two sons each taking different
"second name designations" during the 11th century. Guarin le Vieux
(he lived a long time by 10th century standards, 69 years) had a son
Ansold le Riche and a son Guarin le Chevalier. Guarin le Chevalier had
two sons, Ansold de Paris and Milon de Paris. If Ansold's son and
grandson had "second name designations" they do not survive in the
records. His greatgrandson took the geographical designation "de Maule."
As for the name Simon, it was used by French Normans as early as the
12th century (the great grandson of the first "de Maule" was Simon,
and there is no reason to think it wasn't used in the 11th. (There is
a Holcombe genealogy that recounts what the original asker was seeking
but I don't have a copy so I can't add much other than I am a Holcombe
as well). Now as for whether this Simon was at Hastings, that is a
different matter, but it needs to be decided other than by assumption
based on name and surname.
Jim Maule
ma...@law.vill.edu
Todd A. Farmerie
James Edward Maule wrote:
>
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> >
> > WJHolcombe wrote:
> > >
> > > Seeking info on Symon de Holcombe, Faringdon, Devon, who carried the
> > > banner of Britiric (Aldorman) at the Battle of Hastings 1066. Will share
> > > what I have.
> >
> > It is extremely unlikely that anyone named Simon, or anyone with a
> > surname for that matter, was at the Battle of Hastings on the English
> > side. This is likely to be invention.
>
> "de Holcombe" is not necessarily a surname. It could be simply a
> geographical identifier (which evolved into a surname).
True, but no Englishman would be called by the french "de anywhere" at
the time of the battle. If he fought at Hastings, it is unlikely he
held onto his lands long enough to have been called by the Norman form
(and I doubt that if he was from Devon, he would have had time to get to
Hastings, unless he was already at London, in which case, he probably
would have gone to Stamford). In addition, it was Faringdon that Simon
theoretically held, so if anything, he would have been called "de F".
> As for the name Simon, it was used by French Normans as early as the
> 12th century (the great grandson of the first "de Maule" was Simon,
> and there is no reason to think it wasn't used in the 11th.
I am not doubting that Simon was used by French Normans. I have yet to
see it used by an Englishman (except perhaps as an adopted name of a
churchman) prior to the conquest.
> (There is
> a Holcombe genealogy that recounts what the original asker was seeking
Yes, I am sure there is. There is also a long tradition of inventing
lines to go back to someone at Hastings. The people that did this had
no clue about nomenclatural patterns, chronology, politics, or
genealogy, as pointed out by Round in his assessment of the Audley
Hastings line. This fiction took a Liulf de Audley, threw him back a
hundred years, and made him a Norman (in spite of his blatantly English
name). To add insult to injury, a second compiler then gave him a
father-in-law named Henry (a german name recently (at the time) brought
into the French Capets) who was supposedly Englishman prior to the
conquest. Neither of them were at Hastings, or even existed in the time
of William I. Similar scrutiny must be turned to all such claims, and
without knowing anything more about the chronology, this one doesn't
pass nomenclatural muster.
Still, this is all speculation. Look at Domesday. I bet he won't be
there.
taf
WJHolcombe
Todd: you are mistaken. There were about 8 generations Holcombes who lived
at Branscombe Devon which was not far from Faringdon. I also found them in
the Domesday book at Hole House.. Who is the Sir John Holcombe bd at
Dorchester on the Thames, Abbey of St.Peter and St.Paul in Oxfordshire.
Brochures say he is a crusader for Richard I. I don't like the McPherson
book on Holcombe...too
many errors including that Gilbert Holcombe was the father of Thomas
Holcombe who went to US in 1630 on the "Mary & John". I later found
Gilbert's will stating he died DSP (without heirs). I suppose is possible
he disinherited Thomas because of his religious beliefs. Thomas first born
dau was listed on the birth register of Devon. wjhol...@aol.com
Todd A. Farmerie
WJHolcombe wrote:
>
> Todd: you are mistaken. There were about 8 generations Holcombes who lived
> at Branscombe Devon which was not far from Faringdon. I also found them in
> the Domesday book at Hole House..
I never said that there weren't Holcombes who lived there. What I think
I said was that a man in possession of Faringdon at the time of Domesday
would not likely have the surname Holcombe, (the majority of the
surnames in Domesday are of continental origin. English locational
names were first adopted by the lords of the manor their name derived
from, and not some other place). I also probably suggested that the
name could not be traced back, generation by generation, to Domesday.
What I meant in saying this, but perhaps did not make clear, is that
Domesday lists the tennants having held the land in the time of King
Edward, prior to the conquest. Identifying your guy as one of these
pre-conquest tennants is a prerequisite for documenting a descent from
someone who already was there and fought for the English at Hastings.
Finding him in possession 20 years afterwards is far from sufficient.
In addition, I am certain that Hole House did not appear as such in
Domesday. What was it called there? Perhaps simply Hole, or even
Holecombe? (which name would derive from a valley surrounding the Hole
river, or something like that). Still, later people with this surname
who pop up elsewhere are as likely to derive from a non-manorial family
from the town as they are from the original owners.
taf
fullscop...@gmail.com
> Todd: you are mistaken. There were about 8 generations Holcombes who lived
> at Branscombe Devon which was not far from Faringdon. I also found them in
> Dorchester on the Thames, Abbey of St.Peter and St.Paul in Oxfordshire.
> Brochures say he is a crusader for Richard I. I don't like the McPherson
> book on Holcombe...too
> many errors including that Gilbert Holcombe was the father of Thomas
> Holcombe who went to US in 1630 on the "Mary & John". I later found
> Gilbert's will stating he died DSP (without heirs). I suppose is possible
> he disinherited Thomas because of his religious beliefs. Thomas first born
> dau was listed on the birth register of Devon. wjhol...@aol.com
taf
> not true thomas married before leaving to a women called ann courtenay i
> checked with english courtenays who are still alive today, my grandfather
> has the geneology dating back to symon from himself all fathers and
> mothers leading up to himself i checked it thoroughly and alot of other
> families all through the ages that intermarried with the holcombes came
> from nobility as well , i get stuck at symon and cant go any further other
> than the holcomb-rogus court and town used mine tin which would have been
> a valuable trade i read that joseph of artemis also traded with them there
I don't question that there are genealogies that claim such a descent. However, just as I said then, there is too much invention and too much wishful thinking to accept such pedigrees at face value, even were it not for the improbable onomastics that would have a man named Simon de Holcombe fighting at Hastings for the English. Why don't you post the line back to Simon and perhaps we can evaluate it? As to the notion that Thomas Holcombe, immigrant to America, married a woman named Anne Courtenay (I think that is what you are saying), I would be very interested to see what evidence exists that this was the case. Given that the Courtenays have a well-studied Devonshire pedigree with numerous royally-descended links, I would anticipate one of the compilers of royal descents would have noticed this were it well supported. Not sure who Joseph of Artemis is: this isn't the Joseph of Arimathea legend is it?
taf