Erard I, Comte de Brienne (d. 1114)

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Greg Vaut

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Jan 15, 2004, 8:49:54 AM1/15/04
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Could someone help me clarify the correct spouse for Erard I, Comte de
Brienne (d. 1114)?

Leo van de Pas (at
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00028302&tree=LEO)
shows Erard to have had one mother of his children, but doesn't clearly
state that they were married: Agnes de Baudement, dau. of Andre,
seigneur de Baudement et Braine and Agnes. Leo generally cites "The
Plantagenet Ancestry Baltimore, 1975. , Lt.Col. W. H. Turton, Reference:
206" for all data related to Erard I; presumably including the
identification of his spouse.

Miroslav Marek (at http://genealogy.euweb.cz/brienne/brienne1.html)
identifies Erard's wife (and mother of his children) as "Alix, dau. of
Andre de Montdidier, seigneur de Ramerupt". Miroslav cites no source
for this identification.

All help will be appreciated.

Regards,
Greg Vaut

Leo van de Pas

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Jan 15, 2004, 5:03:52 PM1/15/04
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Dear Greg,

Sadly, I can only work from secondary sources and, also sadly, Turton is
known to have a fair (unfair ?) number of errors.

Miroslav Marek, I think, is correct. I double checked with ES Volume III
band 4, tafels 677 and 681. Alix's mother is indicated to be Adéle, Andre's
first wife.

Thanks for finding this for me.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Peter Stewart

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Jan 15, 2004, 6:52:53 PM1/15/04
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greg...@rcn.com (Greg Vaut) wrote in message news:<40069A66...@rcn.com>...

My notes agree with Miroslav - Érard I, count of Brienne married Alix,
called de Rosnay, dame of Ramerupt, daughter of André de Montdidier,
count of Arcies, seigneur of Ramerupt & an unknown wife. Their elder
son Gauthier II, count of Brienne & seigneur of Ramerupt married first
Humbeline de Baudement, daughter of André, seigneur of Baudement & his
wife Agnès of unknown family. The main source for this was Joseph
Roserot de Melin, _La diocèse de Troyes des origines à nos jours (IIIe
siècle—1955)_ (Troyes, 1957).

I think ES used this work too, but can't explain why the information
there was different.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Jan 16, 2004, 9:14:51 PM1/16/04
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p_m_s...@msn.com (Peter Stewart) wrote in message news:<88abeaa.04011...@posting.google.com>...

> siècle?1955)_ (Troyes, 1957).


>
> I think ES used this work too, but can't explain why the information
> there was different.

This can be explained, I think - on checking I see it wasn't ES making
the mistake picked up by Leo, but rather Turton whose source for the
error was _Trésor de chronologie_ by Louis de Mas Latrie (Paris,
1889).

Mas Latrie cited Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville for the Brienne
lineage, and apparently had misread a charter summary in 'Catalogue
d'actes des comtes de Brienne 950-1356', _Bibliothèque de l'École des
chartes_ 33 (1872) no. 42 p. 151: "1146....Jacques, seigneur de
Chassenay, donne à l'abbaye de Bassefontaine sa part de la dîme de
Bligny, par le conseil de Gautier, comte de Brienne, de la mère et de
la femme du dit comte, savoir: Agnès de Baudement et A., comtesse de
Brienne, dame du dit seigneur de Chassenay".

I presume that Mas Latrie took these two ladies to be respectively the
mother and wife of Count Gautier, and therefore made Agnès de
Baudement the wife of Gautier's father Count Érard I. However, the
order in naming the ladies was evidently reversed, and the meaning
from "par le conseil..." must actually be "by the counsel of Gautier,
count of Brienne, of the count's wife, to wit Agnès de Baudement, of
the count's mother, to wit A[lix de Montdidier, dame of Ramerupt],
countess of Brienne, lady of the said seigneur of Chassenay".

Alix de Montdidier's mother apparently was Adelise, mentioned as wife
of André, count of Ramerupt & Arcies in a charter printed by Henri
d'Arbois de Jubainville in 'Les premiers seigneurs de Ramerupt',
_Bibliothèque de l'École des chartes_ 21 (1861) p. 453: "Andreas,
comes de Rameruco...pro anima uxoris suae Adelisae".

There can be no doubt that Alix, dame of Ramerupt was the wife of
Érard I, count of Brienne and mother of his heir Gautier. In another
charter printed with the article cited above on the seigneurs of
Ramerupt, p. 457, dated 1147, Count Gautier refers to André as his
grandfather: "Andreas comes avus et predecessor meus". This has to be
read literally, since there is nowhere else that André could belong in
Gautier's ancestry.

Peter Stewart

Greg Vaut

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Jan 20, 2004, 7:40:56 AM1/20/04
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Dear Leo and Peter,

Thank you for responding to my query. Peter, thanks for the follow up
sleuthing to identify the likely source of the error.

Regards to all,
Greg

Cristopher Nash

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Mar 24, 2004, 4:52:39 AM3/24/04
to
Peter Stewart wrote -

> > Gauthier II, count of Brienne & seigneur of Ramerupt married first

> > Humbeline de Baudement, daughter of AndrČ, seigneur of Baudement & his
>> wife AgnËs of unknown family. The main source for this was Joseph
>> Roserot de Melin, _La diocËse de Troyes des origines ý nos jours (IIIe
> > siËcle?1955)_ (Troyes, 1957).


>>
>> I think ES used this work too, but can't explain why the information
> > there was different.

Sorry to bother you with this - and so long after your posting - but
while we're on the subject of ES, was it your belief that Erard II is
s. of Humbeline de Baudement rather than of a 2d wife 'N. de
Soissons' (as suggested I think by E.S. III (4) 681) ?

Thanks,

Cris
--

Peter Stewart

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Mar 24, 2004, 5:51:35 AM3/24/04
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Cristopher Nash wrote:
> Peter Stewart wrote -
>
>> > Gauthier II, count of Brienne & seigneur of Ramerupt married first
>> > Humbeline de Baudement, daughter of AndrÈ, seigneur of Baudement & his

>>
>>> wife AgnËs of unknown family. The main source for this was Joseph
>>> Roserot de Melin, _La diocËse de Troyes des origines ý nos jours (IIIe
>>
>> > siËcle?1955)_ (Troyes, 1957).
>>
>>>
>>> I think ES used this work too, but can't explain why the information
>>
>> > there was different.
>
>
> Sorry to bother you with this - and so long after your posting - but
> while we're on the subject of ES, was it your belief that Erard II is s.
> of Humbeline de Baudement rather than of a 2d wife 'N. de Soissons' (as
> suggested I think by E.S. III (4) 681) ?

I haven't made a particular study of this - going only by memory and a
few minutes' survey of ES & Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville's 'Catalogue

d'actes des comtes de Brienne 950-1356', _Bibliothèque de l'École des

chartes_ 33 (1872), both of which are handy at present, it appears
likely that the first wife, Humberline de Baudement, was mother of Erard II.

She was evidently still living in 1135; her husband's second marriage
(to N de Soissons) seems to have been very short-lived, as Gautier II is
said to have been married to a third wife (also named Humberline and
possibly a sister of St Bernard) in 1137.

In January 1143 he gave a charter to Bassefontaine abbey naming his sons
Erard and André - the latter's name suggests a probable grandson of
André de Baudement - and since Count Gautier also had a younger son Jean
who was abbot of Beaulieu in 1157 it would be reasonable to surmise that
both elder sons, Erard and André, were born early enough to be from the
first wife.

But please note I haven't checked this at all thoroughly, and I'm not
able to get hold of sources to confirm this supposition at the moment.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Mar 24, 2004, 5:55:25 AM3/24/04
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Peter Stewart wrote:

On reading this post, I've no idea why I called these women "Humberline"
- I'm trying to watch a documentary about Germans in WWII as I write, so
that Berlin may be obtruding on my consciousness. The name anyway was
Humbeline.

Peter Stewart

Cristopher Nash

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Mar 27, 2004, 8:28:01 AM3/27/04
to
Thanks very much, Peter (& I appreciate the caveat of course!).

Cris


>>Sorry to bother you with this - and so long after your posting -
>>but while we're on the subject of ES, was it your belief that Erard
>>II is s. of Humbeline de Baudement rather than of a 2d wife 'N. de
>>Soissons' (as suggested I think by E.S. III (4) 681) ?
>
>I haven't made a particular study of this - going only by memory and
>a few minutes' survey of ES & Henri d'Arbois de Jubainville's
>'Catalogue d'actes des comtes de Brienne 950-1356', _Bibliothèque de
>l'École des chartes_ 33 (1872), both of which are handy at present,
>it appears likely that the first wife, Humberline de Baudement, was
>mother of Erard II.
>
>She was evidently still living in 1135; her husband's second
>marriage (to N de Soissons) seems to have been very short-lived, as
>Gautier II is said to have been married to a third wife (also named
>Humberline and possibly a sister of St Bernard) in 1137.
>
>In January 1143 he gave a charter to Bassefontaine abbey naming his
>sons Erard and André - the latter's name suggests a probable
>grandson of André de Baudement - and since Count Gautier also had a
>younger son Jean who was abbot of Beaulieu in 1157 it would be
>reasonable to surmise that both elder sons, Erard and André, were
>born early enough to be from the first wife.
>
>But please note I haven't checked this at all thoroughly, and I'm
>not able to get hold of sources to confirm this supposition at the
>moment.
>
>Peter Stewart


--

p_m_s...@msn.com

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Dec 8, 2004, 10:38:04 PM12/8/04
to
On 15 January 2004 I wrote:

> My notes agree with Miroslav - Érard I, count of Brienne married
> Alix, called de Rosnay, dame of Ramerupt, daughter of André de
> Montdidier, count of Arcies, seigneur of Ramerupt & an unknown
> wife. Their elder son Gauthier II, count of Brienne & seigneur
> of Ramerupt married first Humbeline de Baudement, daughter of
> André, seigneur of Baudement & his wife Agnès of unknown family.
> The main source for this was Joseph Roserot de Melin, _La diocèse

> de Troyes des origines à nos jours (IIIe siècle-1955)_ (Troyes,
> 1957).

Once again, the source of this information was not Joseph Roserot de
Melin's work but rather Alphonse Roserot's _Dictionnaire historique de
la Champagne méridionale_, 3 vols (Troyes, 1942-1948, reprinted
Marseilles, 1984).

Peter Stewart

roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu

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Dec 9, 2004, 2:09:36 AM12/9/04
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Hmmmh......Leo van de Pas' website cites an Andre, seigneur de
Baudemont, d. 19 Jul 1142 (citing ES XIV:51), who m. Agnes, dame de
Braine. According to the site, this Andre and Agnes had a daughter,
Helvide and a son, Gui. Could these also be the parents of Humbeline,
wife of Gauthier II de Brienne?

On the same website (citing inter alia, Turton at 206 and ES III:681),
Gauthier II's wife is listed as "NN de Soissons." Interestingly, one
of the four children of Gauthier and NN is named Elwide.....a name
which doesn't appear to be in the immediate ancestry of Gauthier's....
Thanks,

Roger

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