Philip de Gai Lord Wootten Basset?
Linda
Wootten Basset. Can anyone confirm this, and perhaps provide a
reference? I have seen some genealogies indicating that his Grandson,
Philip Basset, was later in posession of the Wootten Basset estate,
and that Philip's daugher, Aline, was born there in about 1250.
Also, I am wondering about the origin of the "de Gai" part of the
name. I know that there was a place in Gloucester called "Caer Gai".
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
In answer to your question, Aline de Gay, wife of Alan Basset (died
1232-3), was daughter and co-heiress of Philip de Gay, of Wootton
Basset, Wiltshire and Northbrook, co. Oxford, by his wife, Cecily.
Philip de Gay in turn was the son and heir of Stephen de Gay, by his
wife, Aline, daughter and heiress of Walter Pipard (Aline Pipard being
formerly the wife of John Marshal, hereditary Master Marshal of
England).
VCH Wiltshire 9 (1970): 190-191 includes a history of the manor of
Wootton Basset, Wiltshire. For reasons not known to me, the editor
commences his account of this manor with Alan Basset in 1210.
However, with a bit of research in the records, the history of this
manor can be traced back to Alan Basset's father-in-law, Philip de
Gay, then to Philip's mother, Aline (Pipard) de Gay, then to Aline
Pipard's father, Walter Pipard.
For evidence of the parentage of Aline de Gay, wife of Alan Basset, I
direct your attention to an agreement made in King Henry II's court in
1190, regarding the division of Philip de Gay's estate, which
agreement was re-confirmed by King Henry II's son, King Richard, in
1198. A copy of the reconfirmation is provided below:
383 (2735R). Aline and Cecily de Gay. Resealing of confirmation
(Vezelay, 3rd July 1190) of agreement in Henry II's court concerning
division of inheritance from their father, Philip de Gay. Cecily is
to have all the land in Norbroch' [Northbrook], and quit claims the
rest to Aline; if either dies without legitimate issue, the other
party shall inherit.
Huius autem innovationis teste sunt Hii, Baldwin, Count of Aumale,
William Marshal, William Fitz Ralph seneschal of Normany, Warin Fitz
Gerald, Saher de Quincy. Dat' per manum E. Elien' Episcopi
Cancellarii nostri. Roche d'Orival 22nd August 1198. Seal on cords.
London, PRO, E42/314 [Reference: J.C. Holt and Richard Mortimer,
Acta of Henry II and Richard I, published as List and Index Soc.,
Special Series, vol. 21, pg. 204].
It appears that Cecily, sister of Aline de Gay, died without issue
soon after 1198. As best I can determine, Aline and her husband, Alan
Basset, later held all of the Gay family holdings, including
Northbrook which was assigned to Cecily. These lands passed by
descent from the Basset family onto the Despenser family.
As for evidence of Philip de Gay's wife, Cecily, whose name has never
been identified in print to my knowledge, I direct your attention to
the book, Three Rolls of the King's Court in the Reign of King Richard
the First A.D. 1194-1195, published as Publications of the Pipe Roll
Soc., vol. 14 (1891), pg. 89. There you will find a reference which
reads as follows under the heading Blakingaue Hundred:
"Sedzilia q' fu[it] vxor Philipp de Gay in donocoe d[omi]ni Rex
Wotton [terra sua] ...."
This records basically identifies Cecily as widow of Philip de Gay and
states she was then (1194/5) in the king's gift, meaning her former
husband was a tenant in chief of the king. Wootton Basset is
specifically named, it being then in the hundred as named.
Lastly, I should mention that in recent time, there was an article on
Robert, Earl of Gloucester, bastard son of King Henry I, which
included information on Philip de Gay above. The material in that
article was wildly inaccurate and incorrect. You can find my brief
review of that article in the google archives of the newsgroup. I
believe Ken Finton republished my review in a back issue of The
Plantagenet Connection. This person's article is proof that
historians sometimes make poor genealogists. In this particular
instance, the gentleman was neither a good historian, nor a good
genealogist.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
lin...@aol.com (Linda) wrote in message news:<16bfefc0.0212...@posting.google.com>...
The...@aol.com
Dear Douglas,
Thank you for an excellent post re: Wootton Basset and
Philip de Gai/Gay. I will have to compare this to my notes
re: the Basset family later this evening.
One point, if I might. I would agree as to the reconfirma-
tion of the agreement between Aline de Gay and her sister
Cecily occurring in 1198, but the original arrangement was
agreed to in 1189 or before, not 1190. Henry II died in
France in 1189, so any Curia Regis following that event
would have been of Richard I, not Henry. I think for the
1190 date to work, we would need to have George Lucas and
Steven Spielberg rework "The Lion in Winter"......
[ Henry II on deathbed,
to bastard son,
Geoffrey Skywalker: "Strong am I with the
force.... but not that
strong." ]
Thanks again; good luck, and good hunting.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Robert S Baxter
John,
Of interest is KSBK-H's DD p. 991, where is Stephen Gai is named as son of
Rainald Gai, the Domesday tenant of Northbrook in Oxforshire. Second wife
of Stephen is the Aline mentioned earlier. No name for the first wife.
Stephen had a brother Robert who died abt1138 and was succeeded by son
Rainald. He apparently does not appear in DP.
Bob
AJones9446
>name. I know that there was a place in Gloucester called "Caer Gai".
"Caer Gai" is Welsh for "Cai's fort" (there is another township of that name
near Bala, Wales). Cai is the Welsh form of the name Kay. Presumably "de Gai"
indicates a place of origin so I think Caer Gai has nothing to do with the de
Gai family.
Alan Jones
Douglas Richardson
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
ajone...@aol.com (AJones9446) wrote in message news:<20021219065233...@mb-ci.aol.com>...
Jim Weber
Gay/Gai.
As far as the identity of his wife, she was identified before as
Sedzilia in Ancestral Roots, Line 215-27. Curiously AR cites CP
VIII:214 as its reference. While that CP article is about John Lovel,
who m. Katherine Basset (note "j"), daughter of Alan Basset and Aline
his wife, I find no mention in CP of "Sedzilia". Thus I have no idea
where AR got the name from.
Jim Weber
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.02121...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
Douglas Richardson
> I want to thank Douglas Richardson for the information on Philip de
> Gay/Gai.
>
> As far as the identity of his wife, she was identified before as
> Sedzilia in Ancestral Roots, Line 215-27. Curiously AR cites CP
> VIII:214 as its reference. While that CP article is about John Lovel,
> who m. Katherine Basset (note "j"), daughter of Alan Basset and Aline
> his wife, I find no mention in CP of "Sedzilia". Thus I have no idea
> where AR got the name from.
>
> Jim Weber
>
Dear Jim ~
Thank you for your good post.
Mr. Sheppard, the author of Ancestral Roots, got the information
regarding Sedzilia de Gay from someone named Douglas Richardson. Back
then, though, I didn't realize that Sedzilia was an archaic form of
Cecily. Actually I've had an article in my files ready to publish on
the Gay family for several years but I've been too distracted with
other matters to submit it. Whenever I get the Plantagenet Ancestry
book finished, maybe I can get back to it.
By the way, the further back you go in time, the more variant forms
you have of given names, not less. Prior to 1200, you encounter a
multitude of spellings for the same given name such as Sedzilia for
Cecily. The variant Latin forms of Alice are particularly
troublesome. I saw a Norman cartulary once which had something like
20 different Latin forms for the name, Maud, prior to 1200. As I've
indicated in an earlier post, about 1200 they seem to have
standardized the spelling of most names. I suspect they started using
standardized name lists to help clerks and priests convert names from
the vernacular into Latin forms. That is purely a guess, though.
Sometimes you see trends in records and record keeping and you don't
have any explanation for them. The disappearance of the articles "de"
and "le" in surnames is another change which can be noted in the
records. The "de's" started disappearing about 1360 and were all but
extinct except for ceremonial usage by 1400. The "le's" were
employed until 1430 and were gone by 1450. The name Alianore
disappeared by 1450, and was replaced by the form Eleanor. Ditto
Reynold for Reginald.
At any rate, I trust this answers your question.
Linda
interesting writeup regarding Aline's first marriage. Citing a piece
by Painter called "William Marshal,Knight Errant, Baron, and Regent of
England", the author notes that John FitzGilbert Marshall, first
husband of Aline Picard "willingly gave up his wife to make peace with
the Earl of Salisbury". Given that John married Sybil de Salisbury in
1146, I guess that was the method he used to cement his new friendship
with the earl.
Based on the date of John's second marriage, I assume Aline remarried
(Stephen Gay) in the same year, or afterwards. This does make me
wonder about the birthdate I have for Aline de Gai. It would seem
that her father, Philip, would have to have been born in 1147 or
later, and every birthdate I have seen for daughter Aline is between
1154 and 1160. Unless these folks were very precocious, it would seem
that there is a date off here somewhere.