Hawise/Sibyl, wife of Walter de Dunstanville
Chris Phillips
> Eyton, vol. 2, pp. 291, 292:
>
> <<
> Sibil de Préaux, now a second time a Widow, continued her suit against
> William and Idonea Longespee.-
>
> On May 16, 1230, the cause came to trial at Westminster.- "Sibil de
Ferrers"
> (so written for Praers) "sued William de Longspee and Idonea his wife, for
a
> third part of a Knight's-Fee in Shalefeld and Aldeford as her dower,
whereof
> Walter de Dunstanvill, formerly her husband," (had been seized on the day
> when he had espoused her).
On Sibyl's being called "de Ferrers", Eyton had a footnote commenting on the
confusion this scribal error had caused, and mentioning an elaborate
hypothesis that had been constructed as a result. Unfortunately I haven't
noted it, but I'm a bit doubtful whether it's really a scribal error, as
Sibyl is also called "de Ferrers" in two entries in the preceding volume of
published Curia Regis Rolls.
I may be falling into exactly the confusion Eyton referred to - and probably
I should wait to look at Eyton again, as he gives a wealth of densely
documented information on the family, but -
Is it possible that this Sibyl is identical with Sibyl (de Braose), the
widow of William de Ferrers, Earl of Derby (d. 1190), whose identity was
discussed here a few months ago?
We know that this Sibyl had remarried to Adam de Port (d. 1213) by 1208, and
that she survived, apparently until 1228.
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/derby.shtml
Going back to the sparse notes I took from Eyton several years ago, there's
the odd comment that "Hawise", the widow of Walter, married Ingelram de
Pratellis (or des Préaux), before the death of Richard I (1199), Eyton
thought, and afterwards became known as Sibyl - "On her marriage with him,
Hawise de Dunstanvill appears to have changed her Christian name. She is on
all later occasions called Sibil." He says that both Ingelram and Sibyl were
both living in 1214, and that Ingelram died between 1226 and 1229.
On these dates, it looks just possible that Sibyl could have married:
(1) William de Ferrers (d. 1190)
(2) Walter de Dunstanville (m. definitely after 1189; he d. ?some time in
the 1190s)
(3) Adam de Port (by 1208; he d. 1213)
(4) Ingrelram de Pratellis (by 1214; he d. 1226-1229).
But if Eyton is correct that Sibyl married Ingelram by 1199, (3) would
overlap with (4). And Sibyl was the mother of William de Ferrers, who seems
to have been of full age by 1190, she would have had a long period of
childbearing if she went on to become the mother of Walter's son Walter.
An obvious alternative would be for Sibyl the wife of (2) and (4) above to
be a daughter of William de Ferrers and Sibyl de Braose. (From memory, this
might also provide an alternative explanation for some of the later
references attributed to the Countess Sibyl by CP.)
From Eyton's passing reference to the Ferrers/Praers question, I suspect it
has been discussed elsewhere. Does anyone know the outcome?
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
The following entry from CCR v.IX p.290 (1220) confirms that Sybil was
mother of Walter de Dunstanville and married to Ingelram Pratellis in 1220.
"Wilt. Willelmus de Esse petit versus Engelramum de Pratell' et Sibillam
uxorem ejus feodum j.militis cum pertinentiis in Culern ut jus suum etc. Et
Engelramus pro se et uxore ejus veniunt et vocant inde ad warantum Walterum
de Dunsta[n]vill' filium et warantum ipsius Sibille, eo quod tenent terram
illam in dotem etc. Habeant eum in octabis sancti Hillari per auxilium
curie."
Her son, Walter, sounds as if he is acting in the capacity of an adult, (I'm
not sure how old one had to be to be called to vouch for someone's
landholdings), and born before 1200.
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:bg59cb$rv5$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie, Chris, et al.,
A few quick observations on this very interesting (and nicely
documented) thread:
1. William de Ferrers (d. bef 21 Oct 1190, on Crusade), first
(of how many....) husband of Sibyl de Braose, was certainly
no youngster (of that era) at his death. He was actively
involved in the Young King's rebellion of 1173-4, evidently
the leader of the sack of Nottingham in June 1174 (for
which his castle of Tutbury was demolished as part of his
entering into the King's peace).
2. The eldest son of William and Sibyl, William de Ferrers
(d. 22 Sep 1247) was Sheriff of Nottinghamshire and
Derbyshire in 1194 - this would seem to put his birth as
likely 1173 or before.
Certainly, if Sibyl/Hawise, wife of Walter de Dunstanville and
Ingram de Preaux, was a daughter of Sibyl de Braose and born say
1170-1175, and the mother of Walter 'II' de Dunstanville (born ca.
1192 according to Sanders [1]), the chronological (and multi-marital)
problems noted would largely be resolved.
~ In addition to Sibyl de Braose obviously bringing her name
to the Ferrers family, the paternal grandmother of William
(d. 1190) was Hawise de Vitre. The possibility does then
exist (how often this was done outside entering the convent,
who knows) that Sibyl (de Ferrers) de Preaux may have opted
to change her name at a later point, and helping to confuse
the rest of us.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Sanders, English Baronies, p. 28. Walter 'II' is noted as having
come of age in 1213.
* John P. Ravilious
Chris Phillips
which tie down the chronology a bit better.
It's nice to have the explicit statement that Walter de Dunstanville was the
son of Sibyl (especially in view of the odd "change of name"). And also the
indication that Walter was born c. 1192.
CP iv 194 says that William de Ferrers's son William had livery of his lands
in the financial year 1190-91, following his father's death before 21
October, so I take it that William junior was born by 1170 at the latest.
Looking at my notes again, I see that:
(1) A reference in September 1228, which the CP article on St John
identifies as "probably" the widow of Adam de Port, seems at any rate to be
the widow of Walter de Dunstanville, as Sibyl de Ferrers who attorned Ralph
de Elmere and William de Thorenwik' against William Lungesp' and Idonea his
wife, concerning land in Scaldefold' and Alfold', Surrey [Cal. Close R.
1227-31, p. 116; previous dated entry is 3 September - this is the same
dispute which the evidence quoted by Eyton refers to].
(2) Also referred to in the St John article is a return from Berkshire, A.D.
1219, where she appears _unmarried_ as "Sibilla comitissa de Ferariis est de
donatione domini regis et non est maritata" [Book of Fees, part 1, p. 255].
But from Eyton's data and Rosie's extract, Sibyl the widow of Walter de
Dunstanville would certainly have been married to Ingelram de Pratellis at
this time, as she was married to him by 1214, still his wife in 1220, and he
didn't die until 1226 or later.
So it looks as though there are two "Sibyl de Ferrers":
(1) the daughter of William de Braose, married (1) by about 1170 William de
Ferrers (d. 1190) and (2) Adam de Port (d. 1213); she was living unmarried
1219.
(2) another, married (1) between 1189 and about 1192 Walter de Dunstanville
(d. 1190s) and (2) by 1214 Ingelram de Pratellis (d. 1226-1229); she was
living 1228 and 1230.
There is also a reference to a Sibyl de Ferrers having letters of protection
as long as she remains a widow, in February 1228. (This is identified as
"perhaps" William de Ferrers's widow, along with the September 1228
reference, in the Derby article in CP.)
Sibyl number 2 seems likely to be a daughter of William de Ferrers and Sibyl
de Braose, as far as I can see.
Chris Phillips