Fwd: Edgar the Atheling
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From: Dk...@aol.com
Full-name: Dkkmc
Message-ID: <74.341bfa...@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 08:58:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Edgar the Atheling
To: D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu
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Edgar was, according to the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, recognized (but not
crowned) as King of England following the death of Harold at the Battle of
Hastings. As the grandson of the heroic Edmund Ironsides, he had a far better
claim to the English throne than either William, Harold Godwinson, or Harald
Hardrada -- the three contenders in 1066. Of course, as you point out, he was
13 so a stand against William wasn't too likely. After William seized the
country he generously let him live.
Edgar had a spectacular career after that. He joined in the Northern
rebellion against William, but was defeated. Later, he fought in the
Crusades, was offered an important position under the Emperor of Byzantium,
fought in Italy for the Normans, and led a nearly successful rebellion
against Henry I in Normany. When William of Malmsbury wrote his Chronicles in
the 1130s he mentions that Edgar (whom he didn't much like) is still alive,
though of very great age. An Edgar Atheling shows up on the Pipe Rolls
(English tax records) in 1152. If it is the same guy, Edgar would have been
about 100 then -- certainly, in those dangerous days, one of the oldest men
in the world.
Insofar as I know, Edgar never married and never had children. One of this
sisters was the wife of Malcolm Cranmore. Another was a troublesome Abbess.
Alas, something of a disappointment for geneologists! Nevertheless, Edgar
certainly was the last male direct descendent of the Cedric line.
Dan Dickinson
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Stewart Baldwin
>Insofar as I know, Edgar never married and never had children. One of this
>sisters was the wife of Malcolm Cranmore. Another was a troublesome Abbess.
>Alas, something of a disappointment for geneologists! Nevertheless, Edgar
>certainly was the last male direct descendent of the Cedric line.
We don't know this. In fact, because of problems with early West
Saxon genealogy, we don't even know for sure that Edgar was a
descendant of Cerdic. However, even ignoring that problem, it is
quite possible that direct male line descendants of Egbert still
survive, since we simply don't possess adequate data on the cadet
lines. What is true that no documentation is known that would trace
such descendants. Furthermore, king Ingi II of Norway (d. 1217) was a
direct male-line descendant of Tostig, brother of Harold II, so if you
buy David Kelley's theory that Harold and Tostig were direct male line
descendants of Egbert (personally, I am a skeptic on that one), then
the line would still have been alive in the thirteenth century in
Norway.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
> Nevertheless, Edgar
> certainly was the last male direct descendent of the Cedric line.
This is not so certain It is known that there were other descents for
which we do not have the precise information (i.e Ealdorman
AEthelweard), and it has been proposed that both Harold Godwinson and
the young Earls Edwin and Morcar were male-line descendants of King
AEthelred I. While one can argue each individual case, it is as likely
as not that such a male-line descent, even to more recent times, might
exist.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Furthermore, king Ingi II of Norway (d. 1217) was a
> direct male-line descendant of Tostig, brother of Harold II, so if you
> buy David Kelley's theory that Harold and Tostig were direct male line
> descendants of Egbert (personally, I am a skeptic on that one), then
> the line would still have been alive in the thirteenth century in
> Norway.
This theory is actually not Kelley's (although he did present it in more
detail than had been formerly). He does get credit (or blame?) for
first tracing Earl Leofric from AEthelred I.
taf
Chris Bennett
Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:39ce2b90...@news.mindspring.com...
> On 24 Sep 2000 07:17:26 -0700, Dk...@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
Furthermore, king Ingi II of Norway (d. 1217) was a
> direct male-line descendant of Tostig, brother of Harold II,
<snip>
That's a new one on me, can you provide a reference or the outline descent?
Thanks.
Chris
Todd A. Farmerie
Do a quick archives search for "Tostig". I know it has been discussed
here in detail.
taf
Leo van de Pas
Your remarks made me look up a few things and something interesting may be
found, I am not sure.
S. Otto Brenner, in his "Nachkommen Gorms des Alten" pages 246 and 247, this
shows descendants of Earl Godwin (Harald II's father). By Tostig he records
Toste (Tostig, Tosta) Godwinson, Jarl in Northumbrien 1056, killed in battle
25 September 1066 at Stamford Bridge, married Judit (born 1033?) died 5
March 1094,
she remarried 1071 Welf IV Duke of Bavaria, daughter of Balduin IV Count of
Flanders and NN, daughter of
Richard II, Duke of Normandy.
This makes Tostig's wife a cousin of William the Conqueror.
But here the problems start, ES Volume II tafel 5 does not give Balduin IV a
daughter, only one son, Baldwin V.
Then ES I.1 Tafel 18 gives Welf IV Duke of Bavaria as second wife, Judith of
Flanders, widow of Tostig and daughter of Baldwin IV and NN of Normandy
daughter of Richard II.
Do you accept this marriage? If Tostig's son was legitimate
then the line you show are also cousins of William the Conqueror and his
descendants.
Look forward to hearing from you,
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 12:19 PM
Subject: Tostig [was: Edgar the Atheling]
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:52:52 -0700, "Chris Bennett"
> <cben...@adnc.com> wrote:
>
> >Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:39ce2b90...@news.mindspring.com...
> >> On 24 Sep 2000 07:17:26 -0700, Dk...@aol.com wrote:
> ><snip>
> >Furthermore, king Ingi II of Norway (d. 1217) was a
> >> direct male-line descendant of Tostig, brother of Harold II,
> ><snip>
> >
> >That's a new one on me, can you provide a reference or the outline
descent?
> >Thanks.
>
> This was discussed in this newsgroup in 1996. Check the newsgroup
> archives for that year using "Tostig" as a keyword. By the way, the
> main primary source for this, Morkinskinna, is now (finally!)
> available in English translation, published earlier this year by
> Cornell University Press. As Morkinskinna (ca. 1220, based mainly on
> one of the sources of Heimskringla) states the relationship
> unambiguously, and members of this line were important men at the time
> Morkinskinna was written, I am now inclined to accept the line from
> Tostig as valid, compared to the more ambiguous position I had in 1996
> (when I didn't have access to Morkinskinna, and knew little about it).
>
> Here is a brief table of the descent. See the archives for more
> details.
>
> Tostig
> |
> Skúli
> |
> Ásólfr
> |
> Guthormr
> |
> Bárðr
> ______________|_____________
> | |
> Ingi II Skúli jarl
> king of |
> Norway modern
> descents
>
> Stewart Baldwin
>
>
Stewart Baldwin
Gryphon801
acept the traditional descent of King Egbert from earlier kings of Wessex? And
this is surely dubious, as has been discussed here before.
Chris Bennett
Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:39cecb48...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:52:52 -0700, "Chris Bennett"
> <cben...@adnc.com> wrote:
>
> >Stewart Baldwin <sba...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:39ce2b90...@news.mindspring.com...
> >> On 24 Sep 2000 07:17:26 -0700, Dk...@aol.com wrote:
> ><snip>
> >Furthermore, king Ingi II of Norway (d. 1217) was a
> >> direct male-line descendant of Tostig, brother of Harold II,
> ><snip>
> >
> >That's a new one on me, can you provide a reference or the outline
descent?
> >Thanks.
>
> This was discussed in this newsgroup in 1996. Check the newsgroup
> archives for that year using "Tostig" as a keyword. <snip of summary,
thanks!>
Unfortunately, my search at Rootsweb drew a blank, except for a thread on
Lady Godiva last year. As did my search for entries from Bennett or Baldwin
for 1996 -- which I KNOW should be therre. Is Rootsweb suffering the same
corruption that has made Deja worhless as an archive?
Chris
Stewart Baldwin
<cben...@adnc.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, my search at Rootsweb drew a blank, except for a thread on
>Lady Godiva last year. As did my search for entries from Bennett or Baldwin
>for 1996 -- which I KNOW should be therre. Is Rootsweb suffering the same
>corruption that has made Deja worhless as an archive?
I did the search last night before posting (since I didn't remember
which year it was), and got 34 hits under "Tostig" for the year 1996.
I made the same search just now, with the same results. Just in case
you were trying a search from a different URL that wasn't working
right for some reason, the URL I used was:
http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl
Enter "gen-medieval" as the name of the list, which can then be
searched by year.
Stewart Baldwin
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Dear Stewart,
>Your remarks made me look up a few things and something interesting may be
>found, I am not sure.
>
>S. Otto Brenner, in his "Nachkommen Gorms des Alten" pages 246 and 247, this
>shows descendants of Earl Godwin (Harald II's father). By Tostig he records
>
>Toste (Tostig, Tosta) Godwinson, Jarl in Northumbrien 1056, killed in battle
>25 September 1066 at Stamford Bridge, married Judit (born 1033?) died 5
>March 1094,
>she remarried 1071 Welf IV Duke of Bavaria, daughter of Balduin IV Count of
>Flanders and NN, daughter of
>Richard II, Duke of Normandy.
>
>This makes Tostig's wife a cousin of William the Conqueror.
>But here the problems start, ES Volume II tafel 5 does not give Balduin IV a
>daughter, only one son, Baldwin V.
>
>Then ES I.1 Tafel 18 gives Welf IV Duke of Bavaria as second wife, Judith of
>Flanders, widow of Tostig and daughter of Baldwin IV and NN of Normandy
>daughter of Richard II.
>
>Do you accept this marriage? If Tostig's son was legitimate
>then the line you show are also cousins of William the Conqueror and his
>descendants.
For chronological reasons, I would consider it highly unlikely that
Tostig's sons were by his marriage to Judith, which occurred too late
to produce children who were adults by 1066. They were likely by an
earlier wife (name unknown) or illegitimate.
Stewart Baldwin
Chris Bennett
sba...@mindspring.com (Stewart Baldwin) wrote:
<snip>
Just in case
> you were trying a search from a different URL that wasn't working
> right for some reason, the URL I used was:
>
> http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl
>
> Enter "gen-medieval" as the name of the list, which can then be
> searched by year.
>
Thanks, yes that was the issue. I now vaguely recall Todd warning us
about this phenomenon. The page I used, which DOESN'T work, is:
http://searches.rootsweb.com/gen-medieval.html
Having read the messages I even more vaguely recall the discussion,
though mostly the debate about baron Ketil of Kendall....
Chris
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.