C.P. Correction: Lord Huntingfield's heir, Alice Francis, and the Copledike family
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Complete Peerage sub Huntingfield and Norwich discusses the identity
and history of Eleanor Francis, heiress and next of kin of Sir William
de Huntingfield, Knt., Lord Huntingfield (died 1376). In its Norwich
account, Complete Peerage correctly shows that Eleanor Francis married
John de Norwich, Knt., 2nd Lord Norwich, son and heir of Walter de
Norwich, Knt., by his wife, Margaret. He was born at Mells, Suffolk 21
October 1351. They had no issue. In 1372 he had pardon for a
homicide. Sir John de Norwich, 2nd Lord Norwich, died abroad about
Christmas 1373 [Reference: C.P. 9 (1936): 766 (sub Norwich)]. So far,
so good.
Curiously, Complete Peerage says nothing about what became of Eleanor
Francis after the death of her husband, other than she was heiress in
1376 to Sir William de Huntingfield, Lord Huntingfield. Recent
research on my part indicates that Eleanor Francis married (2nd) before
1376 Geoffrey Cobbe, lord in right of his wife, of Harlton, Papworth
St. Agnes, and Wimpole, Cambridgeshire. They had one son, John. In
1381 Geoffrey was charged with taking part in the Pleasants' Revolt.
He briefly forfeited his property at Papworth, but was subsequently
pardoned. In 1382 they quitclaimed her rent at Harlton, Cambridgeshire
to William Potton and William Bateman. Geoffrey Cobbe was living about
1400 [References: Rye Cal. of Feet of Fines for Suffolk (1900): 249;
C.P. 6 (1926): 670-671 (sub Huntingfield); 9 (1936): 764 (chart), 766
(sub Norwich); VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 217, 266; 8 (1982): 33; 9
(1989): 368].
In its Huntingfield account, Complete Peerage misidentifies Eleanor
Francis (Lord Huntingfield's heir) as Alice Francis, aged 30
[Reference: C.P. 6 (1926): 670-671]. In the Norwich account,
however, she is correctly identified as Eleanor Francis, daughter of
Richard Francis, by Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Sir Roger de
Huntingfield. However, at this point, another error is made. In the
Norwich account, Eleanor Francis' mother, Elizabeth, is incorrectly
called the sister of Sir William de Huntingfield, Lord Huntingfield
[Reference: 9 (1936): 764 (chart), 766 (sub Norwich).
So, we have error upon error. First, we have a misidentification of
Eleanor Francis as Alice Francis. Then, we have Eleanor correctly
identified, along with her parents, but the wrong kinship to Lord
Huntingfield is provided. Eleanor Francis was not Lord Huntingfield's
niece at all. Rather, a close examination of the Huntingfield family
tree indicates that Eleanor Francis was more distantly related to Lord
Huntingfield, she actually being his second cousin. Eleanor's maternal
grandfather, Sir Roger de Huntingfield, was a younger brother of Lord
Huntingfield's grandfather, Sir William de Huntingfield [see VCH
Cambridge 5 (1973): 217, 219].
At to what became of Eleanor Francis, it seems fairly certain that her
issue was extinct sometime before 1428, when the manor of Horham,
Suffolk (a Huntingfield family property) passed to John Copledike who
is styled by one antiquarian "cousin and heir" of William de
Huntingfield, presumably Lord Huntingfield, who died in 1376
[Reference: Copinger, Manors of Suffolk 4 (1909): 46-47].
Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees shows that the John Copledike in
question descends from a Alexander Copledike, Knt. (died 1334), of
Frampton, Lincolnshire, whose wife, Joan, was the daughter and heiress
of John de Huntingfield, by his wife, Anne, daughter and co-heiress of
Thomas Rockley [Reference: [References: Larken & Maddison, Lincolnshire
Pedigrees 1 (H.S.P. 50) (1902): 266-269 (Copledike pedigree)].
Presumably this John de Huntingfield is the same person as Sir John de
Huntingfield who was a younger brother of William Lord Huntingfield's
great-grandfather, Sir Roger de Huntingfield. Sir John witnessed a
charter for his brother Roger de Huntingfield c. 1280. He is also
mentioned in letters of his brother Roger, one dated 1293-1294, the
other dated 1292-1302 [References: Ancient Correspondence. List of
Ancient Corr. of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15)
(1902): 406; cf. Index to Ancient Corr. of the Chancery and the
Exchequer 1 (PRO Lists and Indexes Supp. Ser. 15) (reprinted 1969):
591. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds 4 (1902): 383].
If anyone knows anything further about John de Huntingfield or the
Copledike family, I'd be grateful to hear further from them here on the
newsgroup. Further history of the baronial Huntingfield family will be
found in my forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for
publication in June 2005.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Chris Phillips
> In its Huntingfield account, Complete Peerage misidentifies Eleanor
> Francis (Lord Huntingfield's heir) as Alice Francis, aged 30
> [Reference: C.P. 6 (1926): 670-671]. In the Norwich account,
> however, she is correctly identified as Eleanor Francis, daughter of
> Richard Francis, by Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Sir Roger de
> Huntingfield. However, at this point, another error is made. In the
> Norwich account, Eleanor Francis' mother, Elizabeth, is incorrectly
> called the sister of Sir William de Huntingfield, Lord Huntingfield
> [Reference: 9 (1936): 764 (chart), 766 (sub Norwich).
To be fair, the Norwich account does correct the error over the name in the
Huntingfield account (which stems from an error in contemporary records),
and this correction was picked up in volume 14.
One point puzzles me a bit. You argue that Elizabeth, the wife of Richard
Fraunceys, was the daughter not of the Roger de Huntingfield who died in
1337, but of an uncle of his of the same name. But according to the Norwich
account [ix 766 note e] this Elizabeth is called the daughter of Roger de
Huntingfield "the younger" in 1338. I'm having trouble working out why Roger
the uncle (who must have been conceived before 1302, when his father died,
at the very latest) would have been known as "the younger", when Roger the
nephew was born about 1305.
On the other hand, CP's identification of Roger does involve a marriage
between second cousins, with no dispensation being mentioned.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Thank you for your post. Your comments are much appreciated.
In my original post, I correctly stated that the Norwich account gave
the correct name of Eleanor Francis. Inasofar as the placement of
Eleanor Francis' grandfather, Roger de Huntingfield, is concerned, in
this instance I have followed Gerald Paget's arrangement of the
Huntingfield family found in his work, Baronage of England. Mr. Paget
has been known to make mistakes. I see, for example, that he makes our
Eleanor Francis (who he calls her Alice) the aunt of William de
Huntingfield, Lord Huntingfield. It is clear from the Norwich account
in Complete Peerage that she couldn't have been Lord Huntingfield's
aunt.
You are correct to note that Complete Peerage refers to Eleanor
Francis' grandfather as Roger de Huntingfield the younger. The style
"the younger" supposedly comes from a fine recorded in 1338, a full ten
years after Roger's death. As a general rule, a man is known as "the
younger" to distinguish himself from another man living at the same
time as himself. There was an earlier Sir Roger de Huntingfield who
was styled "the elder" in records who occurs in the period, 1267-1300.
He was an uncle to all of these people. I don't have a death date for
this individual. If he lived until 1320, his existence might be the
reason for Eleanor Francis' grandfather to be known as Roger de
Huntingfield the younger.
The surviving records indicate that as William, Lord Huntingfield
approached death and having no surviving issue, he began to dispose of
most of his lands. The reversion of the manor of Boxworth,
Cambridgeshire, for example, was sold in 1372 to Lord Huntingfield's
kinswoman, Eleanor Basset, and her husband, John Knyvet. Eleanor
Basset stood in the same relationship to Lord Huntingfield as Eleanor
Francis, they each being second cousins to each other.
The relationship between Lord Huntingfield and Eleanor Francis can not
have been too close, as it is rare for a man to defraud his niece of
the family inheritance. One might expect a man to sell off his lands,
though, if a female second cousin was his heir. Also, had Eleanor
Francis been Lord Huntingfield's niece, this would surely have been
mentioned at the time of his inquisition post mortem after his death.
It is usually when a relationship is more distant that jurors fail to
provide information regarding the kinship involved.
In the end, Eleanor Francis seemingly got little if any of the
Huntingfield estates. I don't find her dealing with any of the
Huntingfield properties, although she was clearly Lord Huntingfield's
heir. She and her 2nd husband, Geoffrey Cobbe, conveyed some property
by fine in Suffolk, but the property is not named, nor is the grantee.
If this property was the manor of Horham, Suffolk, it might explain how
the ownership of this manor passed to the family of her more distant
cousin, John Copledike, before 1428. As best I know, Lord Huntingfield
never sold Horham and it could have been one of the few properties
which fell to Eleanor Francis at Lord Huntingfield's death in 1376.
I agree that the marriage of second cousins alleged by Complete Peerage
is odd, as the couple would be related in the 3rd and 3rd degrees. I
don't know of any dispensation for this marriage. I seldom see
marriages between second cousins in this time period.
If Eleanor Francis' grandfather Roger de Huntingfield belongs one
generation further down the family tree, I would certainly like to know
about it. One indirect way to prove Roger de Huntingfield's birthdate
might be to find out when his widow's subsequent husband, Richard de
Kelshall, was born. Kelshall was a judge and usually men have their
first appointment as judge when they're around 40 years of age. I show
Kelshall died in 1365, but I don't know when he was born. He should be
mentioned in Foss' Judges of England, however. If Kelshall was born in
or before 1300, it would be an indication that Roger de Huntingfield
was born in or before 1300 as well. If so, then Gerald Paget's
arrangement of this family is probably correct. If Kelshall was born
in 1305 or later, then Complete Peerage's rendition is probably
correct. If anyone has immediate access to Foss, I'd be grateful if
they could check on Foss' biograhy of Richard de Kelshall.
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
As a followup to my original post, I've attempted to research the
history of various husbands of Eleanor, widow of Roger de Huntingfield,
which Eleanor was the grandmother of William, Lord Huntingfield's heir,
Eleanor Francis. A determination of the chronology of the elder
Eleanor's three husbands should help us correctly place her 1st
husband, Roger de Huntingfield, in the Huntingfield family tree.
The surviving records indicate that after Roger de Huntingfield's death
in 1328, his widow Eleanor married (2nd) Sir Robert de Sewerby, of
Sewerby, Yorkshire, and (3rd) before 1343 Richard de Keleshull, a
judge.
There is information in print on Sir Robert de Sewerby in the following
sources:
Yorkshire Deeds 4 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 65) (1924): 135; 5
(Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 69) (1926): 129-131; 6 (Yorkshire
Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 76) (1930): 188-191; VCH Cambridge 5 (1973):
217, 219; VCH Yorkshire E.R. 2 (1974): 95, 97-99.
These sources show that Eleanor (_____) Huntingfield's 2nd husband, Sir
Robert de Sewerby, was the son and heir of William de Sewerby, of
Sewerby, Yorkshire, by his probable wife, Beatrice. Sir Robert was an
adult by 1308, knighted by 1328. He was living 23 Oct. 1333, but died
before 13 June 1335.
Inasmuch as Sir Robert de Sewerby was born long before 1300, this
chronology gives excellent support to Gerald Paget's arrangement of the
Huntingfield family tree which places Roger de Huntingfield, Eleanor's
1st husband, as a younger son of Sir Roger de Huntingfield, Knt. (born
c. 1267, died 1302), and his wife, Joyce d'Engaine, daughter of John
d'Engaine, Knt., of Colne Engaine and Laxton, Northamptonshire.
Likewise, the Sewerby material and attendant evidence rules out the
arrangement of the Huntingfield family given in the Norwich account of
Complete Peerage, 9 (1936): 764 (chart), which confuses Roger de
Huntingfield (died 1328) with his nephew, Roger de Huntingfield (died
1337). The two Roger's had complete separate histories, different
wives, and different death dates! For Complete Peerage, that is a
whopping mistake. To be fair, it seems obvious that the editor of
Complete Peerage was not aware that two Roger de Huntingfield's existed
in the same time period. This is surely an easy mistake to make.
If anyone has additional information to add regarding the Huntingfield,
Sewerby, Keleshull, Francis, Norwich, or Cobbe families, I should
appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup. Also, I'd be
grateful to know if anyone can shed light on how John Copledike became
heir to his cousin, Lord Huntingfield, in or before 1428. If Eleanor
(Francis) (Norwich) Cobbe's issue failed before 1428, Lord
Huntingfield's heir should have been descendants of the Basset family,
not the Copledike family. However, it is possible that an entailment
of Huntingfield family properties diverted Huntingfield properties to
the Copledikes and away from the Bassets. If anyone has the Copledike
family in their ancestry, it would be good to hear from them as well.
Chris Phillips
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I'm still a bit confused by this. If
this Eleanor was the grandmother of Eleanor Francis, and after being widowed
by Eleanor's grandfather, remarried a man who was dead by 1335, then I agree
that clearly her first husband could not be the Roger de Huntingfield who
died in 1337. And I agree that chronologically her husband would fit as a
younger son of the Roger de Huntingfield who died in 1302. (Though his
estimated birth date of c. 1267 must be a bit too late, as his son and heir
was stated to be 22 in 1302.)
But is there any direct evidence that the elder Eleanor was the younger
Eleanor's grandmother?
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Regarding your specific question regarding the evidence for the three
marriages of Eleanor, wife of Roger de Huntingfield (died 1328), I
might suggest you read the account of the manor of Harlton,
Cambridgeshire which is found in VCH Cambridge 5 (1973): 217, 219. The
author of this text sets out the evidence that Eleanor married (1st)
Roger de Huntingfield (died 1328); (2nd) Sir Robert de Sewerby; and
(3rd) Richard de Keleshull, a justice. The author likewise notes that
Roger de Huntingfield was an adult in or before 1313, when he was
listed as the owner of Harlton manor.
Given the evidence presented in this and earlier posts, there can be no
question that Roger de Huntingfield of Harlton was a separate and
distinct individual from his younger nephew, Roger de Huntingfield
(died 1337). I might mention that Paget's Baronage of England was
aware of Eleanor's 1st and 3rd marriages, but not not her 2nd marriage.
This is presumably why Paget avoided the pitfall which beset Complete
Peerage which it grappled with the question of the identity of Roger de
Huntingfield of Harlton.
VCH Cambridge gives the following two sources for Richard de Keleshull
which I have not yet seen:
Sessions of the Peace (C.A.S. 8vo. Ser. lv), p. xxxiii; Foss Judges of
England iii 450.
Elswhere, I've located a document for Richard de Keleshull in the
helpful online National Archives catalogue:
PRO Document, C 143/252/4 (re. Richard de Keleshull) (abstract of
document available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Lastly, there is unsourced information on the Huntingfield family of
Harlton found on a internet website for the Glanville family:
"In the 3 of Edw. III., 1330, Roger de Huntingfield held of Queen
Isabel half a fee in Bacton, and also half a fee in the honor of Eye in
Suffolk; and in 1334 Richard de Celeshull conveyed by fine to Sir
Thomas de Sywardeby the moiety of several messuages and lands, with £4
rent in Bacton, Broomholm, and Paston, to be enjoyed after the death of
Alianore, widow of Roger de Huntingfield, by Richard for life, the
remainder to Sir Thomas and his heirs by Elizabeth, sister and
coheiress of Roger." END OF QUOTE.
[Source:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jglanville/roanhg2.htm]
If the above information is correct, then Elizabeth de Huntingfield,
daughter of Roger de Huntingfield of Harlton, married (1st) her
step-brother, Sir Thomas de Sewerby, and (2nd) Richard Francis. I've
confirmed from a record found in the published Yorkshire Deeds that Sir
Thomas de Sewerby's wife in 1335 was in fact named Elizabeth. However,
this marriage must have been dissolved by divorce, as Sir Thomas de
Sewerby was clearly living after Elizabeth is known to have become the
wife of Richard Francis. Perhaps marrying one's step-brother wasn't
Elizabeth de Huntingfield's cup of tea. This would seemingly be yet
another in a series of undocumented divorces which have turned up here
on the newsgroup.
Now, does anyone have particulars on the Copledike family?