Joan Knowght
ADRIANC...@cs.com
Testamenta Vetusta (p 291) includes the Will of Joan Knowght of Taniford,
Kent dated 1st June 1469. This Will was proved at Canterbury (no date given)
- would this make it a PCC will, or should I look for at Kent Records Office?
She calls herself daughter and heir of Henry Knowght, so presumably she is
unmarried, she also mentions her unnamed grandfather and grandmother, her two
unnamed sisters and states she is next heir to her cousin Richard Malmayn.
She makes her principal beneficiary Lady Elianor Brown widow of Sir Thomas
Brown and devises to Elianor her reversion of Richard Malmayn property of
Pluke [near Tenterdon, Kent] and Waldersher, however she does not state if or
what her connection is to Elianor Brown.
I am fairly confident that this Lady Elianor Brown is the daughter of Sir
Thomas Arundel/Fitzalan of Betchworth Castle himself brother of John
(1387-1421) 12th Earl Arundel. Elianor m 1434 Thomas Browne, who was later
knighted, and executed July 1460 during the Wars of the Roses, however in
"The Brownes of Bechworth Castle" John Pym Yateman refers to a deed of 1461
where it is stated that Elianor had remarried to Thomas Vaughn (also shown in
Faris), but the name Vaughn does not appear in Joan Knowght's will (or, at
least, not in the extracts given by Testamenta Vetusta)
Does anyone have more details on the families of Knowght (=Knight?) or of
Malmayn - of the second family I have some extracts from Hasted's History of
Kent which mention the name:
The Lordship of the barony of Folkestone claims paramount over this
parish, [Alkham] as being within the hundred of Folestone, subordinate
to which is THE MANOR OF ALKHAM, alais MALMAINES ALKHAM, which was
part of those lands which made up the barony of Averenches, of which
it was held as one knight's fee, as of the castle of Dover, by the
performance of ward to it, by the family of Malmaines, whose principal
seat was at Waldershare; the last of which name, who was possessed of
it about the reign of king Edward II. was Lora, widow of John de
Malmains; she afterwards remarried Roger de Tilmanstone, who held this
manor in her right. After which it passed into a family who took
their name from their residence in this parish; one of whom, John
Alkham, descended from Peter de Alkham, who possessed lands here as
early as the reign of king Henry III, was possessed of it in the
beginning of king Henry IV.'s reign, in the 4th year of which
[1402/3] he was charged for it towards the subsidy for the marriage of
Blanch, the king's daughter, [she m 1402 Louis Dk of Bavaria] from
which payment several parcels of land in this county were afterwards
called by the name of Blanch lands. In this family of Alkham the
manor of Malmains continued till the beginning of king Henry VII.'s
reign, when Peter Alkham passed it away to John Warren, gent. from
which name it was alienated, about the latter end of the next reign of
king Henry VIII. [-1547] to Sir Matthew Browne, of Beechworth-castle, ...
(vol viii pp 134-6)
This Sir Matthew Browne was grandson of the above Sir Thomas Browne.
The deed of 1461, briefly mentioned above, grants extensive manors and
estates to the children of Sir Thomas Browne, including Acham manor, Kent
which is perhaps the same as the above Alkham.
On 29 June 1611 a Sir William Monyns of Waldershare, Kent was created a Bart.
- perhaps a descendant of the Malmayn/Malmain family.
Adrian
cbe...@paradise.net.nz
Joan Knowght is also known as Jane Knowth in the following PRO records.
Thomas Broun, knt., and Eleanor his wife. v. William Norton, feoffee of
Richard Malmayn, esq.: Manors of Pluckley and Waldershare (Waldeshare)
bequeathed to the said Eleanor by Jane Knowth, heiress of the said Richard.:
Kent.
C1/26/540
Thomas archbishop of Canterbury. v. Michael Smytheot and William Smyth,
feoffees for Jane, granddaughter of Richard Knowthe.: Messuage, &c. called
`Wynston,' in Linstead (Lynsted), bought by the archbishop of the cousins and
heirs of the said Jane.: Kent
C1/29/529
John Hokrych and Elizabeth, his wife, previously the wife of Harry Knowthe.
v. William Smyth and Michael Smythiot, feoffees to uses, and John Cheyne,
knight.: Grant of the wardship of Jane, daughter of Harry Knowthe, and lands
in Lynsted, late of Richard, his father, to the said Sir John.
C 1/142/3
It was commonplace for widows to keep their former names, especially if titled, so
the absence of the name Vaughan in Joan's will is not necessarily a problem.
The following record from the online Public Record Office catalogue demonstrates
the fact that Alianore was indeed married to Sir Thomas Vaughan.
John Audeley, knight, lord Audeley. v. Sir Thomas Vaughan, knight, husband
of Alianore, previously the wife of Sir Thomas Broun.: Land called `Walsted'
and `Huddes' at Lindfield, late of Sir Thomas Broun, knight, attainted.:
Sussex. C 1/59/24
It is curious that Joan Knowght is of Toniford, as this manor was one of only
a few not restored to Alianor and Thomas Vaughan by Edward IV. Yeatman
paraphrases the royal grant restoring Thomas Browne's lands to Alianor and
her new husband on p.29 of the Feudal History of the County of Derby, v.IV
section VII. Is this the 1461 deed which you mentioned, Adrian?
CCR I Edw IV m.9 pt3
"It recites that Thomas Browne Miles, lately convicted of high treason at the
time of Henry VI was attainted and all his lands and goods were forfeited.
That Alianore, his widow, now married to Thomas Vaughan, who was most
dear to our father, Richard Duke of York, deceased. That the king granted to
him, with the consent of the said Elenor [sic] , to the said Thomas and Elenor,
the Manor of Kynges, Noth, Milton, Halton, Morehall, Eythorne, Colkyns
Manor, Dayncourt, Culdam, Acham, Moryse, Herstall, Ballarst, Mastyrse,
Westberi, Godwell, Wynlysshe, Wold Barston, Brikhill, with their appurts., in
Kent, together with a messuage in the parish of Ospring, a messuage called
Pawnasche and Hurlanger, with a windmill in Barston, a tenement called
Dayncourt, a marsh in Deyll, a messuage in Dynglesc, 3 messuages in
Canterbury, 3 messuages in Harbledowne, and 6 acres of wood, a messuage in
Ospringe and one in Malling, 3 messuages in Lydde, a windmill in Whitstaple,
a piece of land called Archer's Field in Beldefield, a messuage in Gravesend, a
piece of land in Maydeston, a messuage in Godmerston, land called Gerhild in
Aldington, a messuage called Cokryng in Tenington, all in Kent, together with
the Aldermanrie of Westgate in Canterbury, with all fines, fees, escheats
pertaining to the Lordship of the Castle of West Bechworth, with its
appurtenances in Surrey, with 5 messuages in Dorking, land and messuages in
the county of Southampton, one tenement in the county of Surrey, called
Mymmys, land in Surrey called Flushland, a parcel in Est Bechworth, a mead
called Bladen's meadow in Surrye, with the manors of Chaukton, Shapwick,
Egle Compton, West Morden, Estborn, Foxhunt, and Wallshead, with their
appurtenances, in Sussex, and 12 messuages and 160 acres of land in
Winchelsea, the manor of Boroughhunt in South, with a messuage and wharf
in Byllynsgate, in London, 6 messuages in Lyme Street, 6 messuages and 1
wharf in the Vintry, 5 tenements in Knightryder Street, in St Benedic's,
London (except the Manors of Swanscombe and erithithe, in Kent) ; and all
the other lands which were our dear father's Richard Duke of york, except the
manor of Toniford and Dane, to hold to the said Thomas and Elenor from the
time of the said attainder for their lives for one Knight's fee and the advowson
of the churches, chapels and cantatias to the same belonging.
And after the deaths of the said Thomas and Eleanor the said lands etc shall
remain to William, Archbishop of York, George Bishop of Exeter, Richard
Earl of Warwick, John Earl of Worcester, Henry Earl of Essex with
Humphrey, Lord Cromwell, John Lord Stourton, William Lord Hastings, and
John Lord Wenlock and shall remain at their discretion for the sons of the said
Thomas Browne, namely William, George, Thomas, Anthony, Robert,
Leonard, and Edward, between them according to the last will of the said
Thomas Browne for that purpose made. If any of them are deceased, then
according as the said feoffees shall determine.
Lastly, all the goods and chattels of the said Thomas Browne on the same
trusts."
According to an IPM in 17 Edw III of Sir Richard de Rokesley and Joan his
wife, widow of Sir John de Moleyns, property in Terlingham, Alkham,
Westwood, Canterbury and Folkestone Hundred was divided between their
two daughters Joan de Pateshill and Agnes Poynings. Joan was wife of
William Pateshull who died s.p. in 1359. Agnes was married to Michael Lord
Poynings and in their eventual heir in the 1460s was Alianore Poynings who
was married to Sir Henry Percy.
Whether the last has a bearing on anything I really don't know but just thought
I would mention it just in case it did. It seemed a coincidence that the Moleyns
name cropped up.
Cheers
Rosie
On 26 Jan 2002 at 20:31, ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote:
Date forwarded: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:31:19 -0700
From: ADRIANC...@cs.com
Date sent: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:31:13 EST
Subject: Joan Knowght
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
ADRIANC...@cs.com
Thanks very much for your message, which has given me quite a few things to
follow up.
I found I had some further photocopies from Hasted. Before I could not find
where Waldershare was, but now I see it was a few miles from Dover and
therefore also close to Alkham. I thought Pluke was the present day Plucke
near Tenterdon, Kent, but it would seem to be what is now Pluckley Hothfield
or Pluckley Thorne (both near Maltman's Hill), half way between Maidston and
Ashford, Kent.
Hasted gives the holders of Waldershare, but the Malmaine had lost their
interest in Waldershare manor by the time of Joan Knowght's will. I imagine
her cousin Richard Malmaine only held a minor interest in Waldershare parish.
Hasted gives the holders of the manor as follows: Henry Malmaines of
Waldershare, died possessed of this manor in 46 Ed III (1372) leaving an only
daughter and heir Alice (who had only a part interest in the manor) who
carried it to Henry Holland of Solton near Dover who d 19 Rd II (1395/6)
leaving it to his dau and heir Jane wife of Thomas Goldwell of Godington in
Great Chart and from him to his grandson of the same name who about the
beginning of the reign of Hy VI (c c1422) alienated his share in the manor to
John Monins (his name seems to have a different root to that of Malmaines)
and he had come into possession of the other part of this mansion by his
marriage to the daughter and heir of Colby who inherited it in right of his
wife, daughter and heir of Thomas, son of John Malmaines of Stoke, who was
related to the before-mentioned Henry Malmaines.
If anyone is interested and for what its worth, the Duchess of Cleveland's
Battle Abbey Rolls gives a couple of pages on the "Melemaine" family (the
name meaning evil-handed), which I could post here.
Thanks for giving the alternative spelling Knowth. I noticed that at a much
later date the Norths (Earl of Guildford) came into Waldershare, so I tried a
long shot and looked at the North family in CP and Burkes, but I could find
nothing to show they may have been connected.
The extract from Feudal History of the County of Derby is the same deed as I
have. Pym Yeatman was a bit naughty in that most of the Derby book is an
exact copy of the Betchworth book (right down to the punctuation - near the
end of this deed what appears as "Shapwick, Egle Compton," should read
"Shapwick Egle, Compton," the former property being near Chichester, West
Sussex.) I wonder if he got two commissions?
The Poynings connections is interesting, Sir Thomas Browne's son George
(-1483 bhd) m Elizabeth dau of Sir William Paston and widow of Robert
Poynings (-1460/1 bat of St Albans) the 2nd son of Robert 5th Baron. I must
look at this further.
Many thanks,
Adrian
cbe...@paradise.net.nz
Pleased to be of help in pushing the boundaries back a little further (maybe).
Thank you in turn for offering the information on the Malmains family by the
Duchess of Cleveland. It would be of interest to me as one branch was ancestral to
the St Omer>Hoo>Boleyn line. I'm sure it would be of interest to others on the list
too.
I don't think there would have been any additional commission for Yeatman as this
volume in his series of The Feudal History of the County of Derby was privately
published in a limited edition in 1903 by the author himself. I am fortunate to have
an autographed copy (no. 80). In it he includes information on the Montgomeries of
Cubley, Gresley, FitzAlan and Peverel families. I don't rate his work too highly,
being uneven in accuracy and almost incoherent in parts owing to poor organisation
and his obsession with the Albinis, but it is useful for the documentation he
describes.
Cheers
Rosie
> related to the before- mentioned Henry Malmaines.
Paul C. Reed
ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Testamenta Vetusta (p 291) includes the Will of Joan Knowght of Taniford,
> Kent dated 1st June 1469. This Will was proved at Canterbury (no date given)
> - would this make it a PCC will, or should I look for at Kent Records Office?
>
The will is not listed in the index to the PCC under any spelling like Knowght,
Knyght, etc., so I suspect it was proved in the Consistory Court of Canterbury.
Doesn't Test. Vest. give a reference? There was an Affabell [!] Notte, clerk,
of Hastowe nexte Sittingbourne, Kent, who left a will in 1533 (PCC 5 Hogen).
Paul
ADRIANC...@cs.com
Thanks v much for checking this out.
In Test. Vest. most just give the date when proved (I suspect these are
PCC's). There are quite a few shown as "proved in Canterbury", some with
dates - I now think those so marked are all the Consistory Court. I suppose
I should plough through the preface and introductionary notes to see if there
is an explanation.
Rosie states that a variant of Knowght was Knowth - I then though that
perhaps this had become North, (Much later the Norths, earls of Guildford had
come into property that was once held by the Malmains), but I could find no
connection.
I like the name Affabell Notte - but does that imply he was affable or not?
thanks,
Adrian
> ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Testamenta Vetusta (p 291) includes the Will of Joan Knowght of Taniford,
> > Kent dated 1st June 1469. This Will was proved at Canterbury (no date
> given)
> > - would this make it a PCC will, or should I look for at Kent Records
> Office?
> >
Paul replied:
Reedpcgen
>Rosie states that a variant of Knowght was Knowth - I then though that
>perhaps this had become North, (Much later the Norths, earls of Guildford had
>
>come into property that was once held by the Malmains), but I could find no
>connection.
>
>I like the name Affabell Notte - but does that imply he was affable or not?
>
>thanks,
>Adrian
>
>> ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Testamenta Vetusta (p 291) includes the Will of Joan Knowght of Taniford,
>> > Kent dated 1st June 1469. This Will was proved at Canterbury (no date
>> given)
>> > - would this make it a PCC will, or should I look for at Kent Records
>> Office?
>> >
There was a John Knowth[un?] of St. Mary, Lambeth, whose will was proved in
1508 (PCC 5 Bennett) and som eKnyght wills from Kent in the PCC, but nothing so
early as you might be interested in. Of the three North wills listed in the
PCC prior to 1558, one was London and two were Lincoln. Knyght was far more
common (in the PCC).
Some of the Kent feet of fines, an earlier subsidy, etc., are published, and
the index to the Consistory Court of Canterbury 1396-1558 is in the Index
Library (British Record Society, 50; and also by the Kent Archaeological
Society, Records Branch, v. 6), but I don't have that volume here.
Paul
Paul C. Reed
not PCC], lists a will for Johanna Knowght [under Knight], Tonford,
Canterbury, A. vol. 1, f. 30, 1459. There are only two earlier Knight/Knott
wills listed:
Richard Knyght, monk, Selling, near Horton C. 2 96 1455
William Knyght, Lyminge C. 1 4 1396.
There were 31 entries earlier than 1500.
Cheers,
Paul
Douglas Richardson
Just one small point. Lady Eleanor Brown was the daughter of Sir
Thomas Arundel, not Sir Thomas Arundel/Fitzalan. My research
indicates that the Fitz Alan family started using the surname Arundel
as early as 1291. The last appearance of the surname Fitz Alan dates
from 1302. After 1302, all members of this family went exclusively by
the surname, Arundel. I haven't found one single instance of the
surname, Fitz Alan, after 1302.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote in message news:<b2.58b551...@cs.com>...
ADRIANC...@cs.com
Thanks for your message.
Yes, I am well aware of your views, but I don't entirely go along with them.
Pym Yeateman states that, despite calling themselves Arundel "they are more
correctly called FitzAlan", okay, he is not always the best authority (but
good enough for Faris to use!) and he is in effect using modern naming
doctrine retrospectively (but c.f. Plantagenet), but the fact is that the
name did go back to Fitzalan, and has been used by a number of eminent writes
- I just looked at Gairdner's edition of the Paston Papers and he refers to
Lord Maltravers as "Thomas Fitz Alan Lord Maltravers, eldest son of William
Fitz Alan, Earl of Arundle married Margaret 2nd daughter of Richard Widville,
Earl Rivers...." This Ld Maltravers later became 17 or 10 Earl (in CP
numbering) - in fact CP gives Fitz Alan as an alternative and states this
earl was cr K.B. as Lord Fitz-Alan
Another reason I like to call them FitzAlan is that I have seen them, on more
than one occasion, confused with the Arudels of Wardour.
I understand that the earl of Arundel is a rare example (one of two, I think
someone said) where the title goes with the property rather than the man, if
correct perhaps the reason they favoured the surname Arundel was to reinforce
their entitlement to the title.
Douglas Richardson wrote,
D. Spencer Hines
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
<ADRIANC...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:f7.15ca179...@cs.com...
canberra
Can you be more precise, surel,y after 1302 the name FitzAlan has been used
for members of this family, the Earls of Arundel. Circa 30 March 1555 Thomas
Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, married Lady Mary FitzAlan, daughter of Henry,
Earl of Arundel, and Lady Catherine Grey. It is because of this marriage
that the present Duke of Norfolk bears the surname FitzAlan-Howard, not
Arundel-Howard.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Joan Knowght
> Dear Adrian ~
>
> Just one small point. Lady Eleanor Brown was the daughter of Sir
> Thomas Arundel, not Sir Thomas Arundel/Fitzalan. My research
> indicates that the Fitz Alan family started using the surname Arundel
> as early as 1291. The last appearance of the surname Fitz Alan dates
> from 1302. After 1302, all members of this family went exclusively by
> the surname, Arundel. I haven't found one single instance of the
> surname, Fitz Alan, after 1302.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> ADRIANC...@cs.com wrote in message
news:<b2.58b551...@cs.com>...
John Higgins
Arundel (one "l") and the Arundell family of Cornwall in its branches of
Lanherne, Tolvern, Trerice, and later Wardour. The latter family seems to
have generally (although not consistently) used two "l"s in its surname.
The best pedigree for the Arundell family is probably found in "Genealogical
Collections illustrating the History of Roma Catholic Families of England"
(J. J. Jackson, ed.), from which the account in Pine's "New Extinct Peerage"
is largely derived.
John Higgins
jthi...@surfree.com
"Who begot whom is a most amusing kind of hunting" - Horace Walpole
> -----Original Message-----
> From: use...@rootsweb.com [mailto:use...@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of D.
> Spencer Hines
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 11:41 AM
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Joan Knowght
>
>
> Can you link the Arundels of Wardour with the Earls of Arundel?
>
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
D. Spencer Hines
Yes, one might well think that. CP does not reveal a firmly sketched
link ---- *but* there is an interesting note to consider.
I deliberately left off the second "l" ---- to see if folks would find
that to be significant. Good catch.
The note in CP is in Volume I on page 263, note e, and reads as follows:
"The Lords Arundell of Wardour, cadets of the House of Lanherne, bear
the whole coat of that house, which is Sable, with six swallows
silver ---- the _hirondelles_ playing upon the name of Arundell. (ex
inform. Oswald Baron). V.G. [Vicary Gibbs ---- GEC's nephew and one of
the editors of CP. ---- DSH]. _Hirondelles_ is the French for
_swallows_.
There is also *another* reported link, by marriage, between the Earls of
Arundel and the Arundells of Wardour, as follows.
The grandfather of Sir Thomas Arundell, [circa 1560-1649],1st Lord
Arundell of Wardour [Created: 1605], is reportedly Sir Thomas Arundell
[1515-1552] who married Margaret Howard [1505-1572]. Margaret Howard is
the 4th great granddaughter of Richard FitzAlan [Douglas Richardson says
it should be Arundel], [1346-1397], 11th Earl of Arundel, who was
executed at Cheapside, 21 Sep 1397.
So, all of the Lords Arundell of Wardour, including the first, would
also be descendants of Richard, the 11th Earl of Arundel, through the
female Howard connection.
Lady Anne Arundell, [1615-1649], daughter of Sir Thomas, the first Lord
Arundell of Wardour, after whom the county in Maryland is named, is
reportedly the wife of Cecilius Calvert, 2nd Lord Baltimore. She and
her husband apparently never set foot in the new American colony.
Comments?
Deus Vult.
"The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs."
Hunter Thompson
"When it comes to arrogance, power, and lack of accountability,
journalists are probably the only people on the planet who make lawyers
look good."
Steven Brill
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.
----------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"John Higgins" <jthi...@surfree.com> wrote in message
news:000001c1ac3a$5128e600$208dda43@oemcomputer...