New CP Addition: Eleanor, lst wife of Robert Poynings, 4th Lord Poynings
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 663-664 (sub Poynings) fails to identity
the first wife of Sir Robert Poynings, 4th Lord Poynings (died 1446).
This is a bit odd, as Lord Poynings was certainly a prominent man in
his life time. I note elsewhere that Sir John Maclean's multi-volume
set, Deanery of Trigg Minor, identifies Lord Poynings' first wife as
"Eleanor, dau. of Regin. Lo. Grey of Ruthyn" [Reference: Deanery of
Trigg Minor, 1 (1876): chart following pg. 683]. If so, then
presumably Eleanor was the daughter of Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of
Ruthin (died 1440), by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos, a descendant of
King Edward I.
Checking through obscure episcopal registers, I've been able to
confirm that Lord Poynings' first wife was in fact named Eleanor.
This is proven by a dispensation granted to her in 1416 to have mass
and other divine offices celebrated "in her own chamber." The actual
dispensation reads as follows:
"... Et eisdem anno et loco supradictis custos dispensavit cum domina
Elionora uxore domini Roberti domini de Ponynges gravida et impregnata
ut possit missas et alia divina officia submissa voce per capellanum
ydoneum facere celebrari et audire supra altare in oratorio in camera
sua ad hoc decenter preparato et honesto." [Reference: E.F. Jacob,
Register of Henry Chichele (Canterbury and York Soc., vol. 46) (1945):
455].
The following colonial immigrants descend from Eleanor Poynings:
l. William Bladen
2. St. Leger Codd.
3. Edward Digges.
4. Warham Horsmanden.
5. Anne Mauleverer.
6. George Reade.
7. Katherine Saint Leger.
8. Richard Saltonstall.
For further information regarding Eleanor and her husband, Sir Robert
Poynings, please see the material provided below from the forthcoming
book, Plantagenet Ancestry. Among notable people descended from
Eleanor Poynings is President George Washington (via George Reade).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
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1. ELEANOR GREY, married (as his 1st wife) ROBERT POYNINGS (or
PONYNGES), Knt., 4th Lord Poynings, Privy Councillor, son and heir of
Richard de Poynings, Knt., 3rd Lord Poynings, by Isabel, daughter and
heiress of Robert Fitz Payn, Knt. He was born at Okeford Fitzpaine,
Dorset 3 Dec. 1382. They had three sons, Richard, Knt., Robert, Esq.,
and Edward (clerk) [Master of Arundel College]. He was heir in 1394
to his aunt, Elizabeth Fitz Payn, wife succesively of Thomas de
Audley, Knt., and Hugh de Courtenay, Knt. He was summoned to
Parliament, presumably from 25 Aug. 1404 (certainly from 21 Dec. 1405)
to 13 Jan. 1444/5. In 1416 Eleanor was granted a dispensation to have
mass celebrated in her own chamber. He married (2nd) in or before
June 1434 MARGARET SQUERY, widow of William Cromer (or Crowmer), Lord
Mayor of London (died Jan. 1433/4), and elder daughter of Thomas
Squery, of Westerham, Kent. They had one daughter, Eleanor (wife of
Thomas Palmer). SIR ROBERT POYNINGS, Lord Poynings, died 2 Oct. 1446.
His widow died 3 Nov. 1448.
References:
T. Blore Hist. & Antiq. of the County of Rutland 1 Pt. 2 (1811): 163
(Grey pedigree) (wife not identified). Collectanea Top. et Gen. 3
(1838): 257-258 (his seal bearing arms quarterly Poynings and
Fitzpayne), 262-264. Sir John Maclean Deanery of Trigg Minor 1
(1876): chart following pg. 683 (wife identified as "Eleanor, dau. of
Regin. Lo. Grey of Ruthyn"). H.S.P. 16 (1881): 244 (1563/4 Vis.
Yorkshire) (Percy pedigree). Genealogist n.s. 19 (1903): 30. Sussex
Rec. Soc. 11 (1910): 300-301,324-327; 23 (1916): 248-249,259-260; 29
(1924): 90. H.S.P. 74 (1923): 43 (1574 Vis. Kent) (Crowmer pedigree).
C.P. 5 (1926): 463-464 (sub Fitzpayn). Wedgwood 1 (1936): 697-698
(biog. Robert Poynings). C.P. 10 (1945): 663-664 (sub Poynings).
E.F. Jacob Register of Henry Chichele 3 (Canterbury & York Soc., vol.
46) (1945): 455,456; 4 (Canterbury & York Soc., vol. 47):
138,142,161,172,203,236,244,254,267. Paget (1957) 462: 2 (sub
Poynings). Paget (1977), pg. 424. Cal. IPM 17 (1988): 519-520.
U...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
> Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 663-664 (sub Poynings) fails to identity
> the first wife of Sir Robert Poynings, 4th Lord Poynings (died 1446).
> This is a bit odd, as Lord Poynings was certainly a prominent man in
> his life time. I note elsewhere that Sir John Maclean's multi-volume
> set, Deanery of Trigg Minor, identifies Lord Poynings' first wife as
> "Eleanor, dau. of Regin. Lo. Grey of Ruthyn" [Reference: Deanery of
> Trigg Minor, 1 (1876): chart following pg. 683]. If so, then
> presumably Eleanor was the daughter of Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of
> Ruthin (died 1440), by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos, a descendant of
> King Edward I.
>
CP, Volume 14 identifies her as Elizabeth Grey, daughter of Reynold Grey and
Margaret de Ros, or Roos. Based on your research, I'll change her to Eleanor.
Thanks.
ADRIANC...@aol.com
His 1st wife is given in CP Vol XIV but as Elizabeth d of Reginald Grey Lord
Grey of Ruthyn. The source being Devon, Issues of the Exchequer, 1837, p.
265; Sussex Arch. Colls., vol .xv, 1863, p. 16
Burkes Extinct Peerage (where he is the 5th baron) gives her name as
Elizabeth or Eleanor Grey.
I have note that king Richard II gave them a ring on their marriage, but I am
not sure where I found this.
There would seem to be scope for confusion with both his father and what
would seem to be his sister Elizabeth (see BEP p 247 John dvp, son of John
Grey 2Bn Grey of Rotherfield) marrying Greys.
regards,
Adrian
Douglas Richardson wrote,
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Complete Peerage 10 (1945): 663-664 (sub Poynings) fails to identity
> the first wife of Sir Robert Poynings, 4th Lord Poynings (died 1446).
> This is a bit odd, as Lord Poynings was certainly a prominent man in
> his life time. I note elsewhere that Sir John Maclean's multi-volume
> set, Deanery of Trigg Minor, identifies Lord Poynings' first wife as
> "Eleanor, dau. of Regin. Lo. Grey of Ruthyn" [Reference: Deanery of
> Trigg Minor, 1 (1876): chart following pg. 683]. If so, then
> presumably Eleanor was the daughter of Reynold Grey, Lord Grey of
> Ruthin (died 1440), by his 1st wife, Margaret Roos, a descendant of
> King Edward I.
>
Douglas Richardson
Dear Dave ~
You're more than welcome.
I wonder if someone would be willing to translate the Latin text in my
post on Eleanor Poynings for the newsgroup?
Reedpcgen
Paul
Douglas Richardson
> Doug,
>
> His 1st wife is given in CP Vol XIV but as Elizabeth d of Reginald Grey Lord
> Grey of Ruthyn. The source being Devon, Issues of the Exchequer, 1837, p.
> 265; Sussex Arch. Colls., vol .xv, 1863, p. 16
>
> Burkes Extinct Peerage (where he is the 5th baron) gives her name as
> Elizabeth or Eleanor Grey.
>
> I have note that king Richard II gave them a ring on their marriage, but I am
> not sure where I found this.
>
> There would seem to be scope for confusion with both his father and what
> would seem to be his sister Elizabeth (see BEP p 247 John dvp, son of John
> Grey 2Bn Grey of Rotherfield) marrying Greys.
>
> regards,
> Adrian
Dear Adrian ~
Thank you for posting the information from CP 14 regarding the
Poynings matter. The library here does not have Sussex Arch.
Collections, vol. 15. Do you have access to it?
Also, I'm not familiar with the source, Devon, Issues of the
Exchequer, published in 1837. What is it? Do you know? If you have
access to it, can you post the information here?
Chris Phillips
> Also, I'm not familiar with the source, Devon, Issues of the
> Exchequer, published in 1837. What is it? Do you know? If you have
> access to it, can you post the information here?
It's not a source I've used, but it's presumably part 3 of this, from the
British Library catalogue:
Title: Pell Records. (Extracted and translated from the original rolls of
the ancient Pell Office by Frederick Devon.)
Part title: 1. Issue Roll of Thomas de Brantingham ... Lord High Treasurer
of England; containing payments made out of His Majesty's revenue in the
44th year of King Edward III. A.D. 1370, etc. pp. xc. 518. 1835.
Part title: 2. Issues of the Exchequer; being payments made out of His
Majesty's revenue during the reign of King James I, etc. pp. xxix. 448.
1836.
Part title: 3. Issues of the Exchequer; being a collection of payments made
out of His Majesty's revenue, from King Henry III to King Henry VI
inclusive, etc. pp. cxxxix. 664. 1837.
Publication details: London, 1835-37. 8o.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage XIV (1998): 535 (sub Poynings) states that Robert
Poynings "married before 22 Oct. 1397, Elizabeth, da. of Reynold
(Grey), Lord Grey of Ruthyn, by his 1st wife Margaret, da. of Thomas
(Ros), 4th Lord Ros of Helmsley." The editor cites the two sources
you give, neither of which have I seen.
Regardless, I find the marriage of Robert Poynings was granted to
William le Scrope on 31 Jan. 1398 [Reference: Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1396-1399 (1909), pg. 289]. So, it would appear that Complete
Peerage XIV has the date of Robert Poynings' marriage wrong.
Elsewhere I've already shown the given name of Robert Poynings' wife
was actually Eleanor.
A correction of a correction .... I bet Chris Phillips loves this.
In a related vein, I find that Robert Poynings' mother, Isabel, was
styled "king's kinswoman" by King Richard II [Reference: Cal. Patent
Rolls, 1385-1389 (1900), pg. 428]. I'm unable to figure out the
kinship between Isabel and King Richard II. Anyone want to venture a
guess as to how the families are related?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
ADRIANC...@aol.com wrote in message news:<110.1604a4...@aol.com>...