Adelhaid wife of Grisgonelle

[Mardi Carter]

ES has me thoroughly confused in Band 3/1 tafel 49 as follows:

Robert (de Vermandois), Ct of Meaux and Troyes m Adelaide (b. bef. 950),
dau of Giselbert von Burgund. She m. 2nd Lambert, Ct de
Chalon-sur-Saone (d. 22 FEB 979) and 3rd Geoffrey I Grisgonelle, Ct
d'Anjou (d. 21 JUL 987). This same information is repeated in Band 3/3
tafel 433

Adele (b. abt. 950), dau of Robert and Adelaide above, is shown as also
having married Lambert and Geoffrey (same dates).

Mother and daughter surely didn't marry the same men. Can someone
straighten this out?

[Jim Stevens]

Mardi Carter <mard...@valley-internet.net> posted:

This was discussed at length some time ago. I followed the discussion
quite closely and used some of the pstings in the notes for the individuals
involved at my website. To see all the notes for these peopole, you can
start with reference # 1231 - Adelaide of Burgundy and go from there.

Below are the notes I have on Adelaide:

This Adelaide is the focal point of one of the most debated controversies
in medieval genealogy. Although I show her as marrying 3 times, after much
study of numerous postings on GEN-MEDIEVAL, I have been persuaded that two
individuals have probably been combined into one. For convenience sake, I
leave her in my database as one person. An excerpt from one of the
postings sums it up best:
Matman <mat...@HOTMAIL.COM> posted to
soc.genealogy.medieval on 21 May 1997 (in part):
Subject: Re: Burgundy - One more try to sum up *
"Adelaide dau of DUKE GISELBERT appears with her husband ROBERT OF
TROYES and son Heribert in a charter of 949. There is no problem with this.
The difference of opinion is whether this Adelaide is the same as the wife
of LAMBERT who later married GEOFFREY. Most historians have shied away from
making this assumption, eg Maurice Chaume (who was otherwise much given to
speculation) in his 'The Origins of Burgundy' 1925, Werner in an article in
Die Welt als Geschicht, 1960, p107-13 (especially p111), and more recently
Constance Bouchard, 'Sword and Mitre'.
To make them one person does create problems, not least with the
chronology. Adelaide was old enough to have children by about 950 (for she
had a grandson FULK THE BLACK by c.970), yet she was still young enough to
have children (eg Maurice) c.980 or later. Its possible, but only just. I
don't know how common it was for noblewomen to give birth after 40.
Secondly if she only married LAMBERT after 967, then any children
from that marriage could not have been born before that. But ADALBERT OF
ITALY first husband of GERBERGA had died by 975 at the latest, and
OTTO-WILLIAM was their son. So clearly if one accepts that Adelaide was one
person, one has to find different parents for GERBERGA. Some have got round
this by making GERBERGA a daughter of LAMBERT by an earlier wife. As
LAMBERT first appears in 944, and is called count in 959, this may not be
impossible.
Lastly, I may be naive about this, but even in the tenth century, a
case of a mother marrying her son-in-law would be exceptional (no?) and
arouse comment, yet no source mentions such a thing."

Weis' "Ancestral Roots. . ." (118:19-21), identifies Adelaide as the dau.
of ROBERT, COUNT OF TROYES (RIN 1230), and also identifies GEOFFREY as her
2nd husband, and FULK III as their son.

ES iii, 49; ii, 189 [rev. in iii(1)]; and iii, 116 and 433. ES III, 49
has Adelaide as the daughter of GISELBERT OF CHALONS etc, marrying first
ROBERT, then LAMBERT (d.979), then GEOFFREY; and Adela marrying LAMBERT
(d.978) then GEOFFREY, which would mean Adela married both her stepfathers.
[There is evidently some confusion between Adelaide & Adela.]

The above note leads to the opinion , held by some, that this Adelaide
married ROBERT, then LAMBERT, then her son-in-law GEOFFREY. The sequence of
events for this most unusual web of intermarriages would be as follows:
950 ROBERT C OF TROYES m. Adelaide of Burgundy & dau. ADELE born.
965 GEOFFREY GREYMANTLE (age 28) m. ADELE OF
VERMANDOIS/TROYES (age 15).
967 ROBERT died and his widow almost immediately m. LAMBERT.
975/8 ADELE died and her widower, GEOFFREY, m. after a wait of 1 to 5
years, his deceased wife's newly widowed mother,
Adelaide of Burgundy.
979 LAMBERT died. His widow, Adelaide, as stated above, then m. ,
almost immediately, her son-in-law, GEOFFREY.

As a dissenting opinion re. her parentage:
Richard Borthwick <rg...@CYLLENE.UWA.EDU.AU> posted to
soc.genealogy.medieval on 1 Dec 1996:
Subject: Re: Gerberga, wife of Adalbert (was re. Welfs)
"In her discussion of the counts of Chalons CBB [Constance Brittain
Bouchard *Sword, Mitre and Cloister: Nobility and the Church in Burgundy,
980-1198* (Ithica NY & London, Cornell University Press, 1987)] says:
"LAMBERT married a woman named Adelaide (*). While there is no evidence
of her origins in the sources, scholars have repeatedly tried to tie her to
the family of GISELBERT, COUNT OF BURGUNDY [RIN 1232], both because
GISELBERT did have a daughter named Adelaide and the mother, as I have it,
of the Adelaide mentioned in the following note - i.e. the wife of ROBERT,
COUNT OF TROYES (RIN 1230)] and because they feel a need to explain how
LAMBERT could have LEGITIMATELY** succeeded to Chalon#. I prefer to leave
Adelaide's origins unknown; since LAMBERT's succession to Chalon was
recognised by the king, he did not need a hereditary claim by his wife to
legitimize his rule(##).
LAMBERT died in 978, and his wife Adelaide quickly married GEOFFREY
GREYMANTLE, count of Anjou. GEOFFREY acted as count of Chalon from 979
until his own death in 989 (*). ..." p.307f.
* Source regerences./ ** She uses italics to make the emphasis
# A long footnoted discussion of who has said what on the subject.
## Reference."

Hope this helps - or are you sorry you asked? (:-)

Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! (jste...@iquest.net) Jim

Visit my genealogy website at
http://www.gendex.com/users/jast

[KHF333]

The charts are a mess and cannot be trusted. We have the same problem in
completing the second volume of "The Ancestry of Elizabeth of York" (published
by HT Communications).

Malyn Lewis, the compiler, sent me this commique: "This relates to an earlier
question about these two women being married to Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou.
Today, I received copies of the Anjou and Vermandois pages from ES from my
cousin in SLC. These pages have these two ladies hopelessly confused as well.
Although it is possible that the daughter and mother were married to the same
guy (Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou), I don't think it likely. In fact, ES has
fallen into the same trap as others have by showing BOTH womenmarrying him on
the same date! Unless they allowed blatant bigamy in those days,I don't think
that's possible. But, on the Anjou chart, he does show that Geoffrey married
twice. 1st time was to Adele de Donzy, daughter of Robert, Count of Meaux and
Troyes. Adele died in 974. He also shows that this marriage occurred between
Adele and Geoffrey I in about 965. (But, NOT as a widow of Lambert, Count of
Chalon as is shown on the Vermandois chart. That chart shows that Adele
married Lambert, then Geoffrey. The problem with that is this is the same
Lambert that her mother married after her father (Adelaide's first husband,
Robert, Count of Meaux and Troyes) died.) That leaves us with the very real
possibility that Adelaide (the mother of Adele (who married Geoffrey I, Count
of Anjou)) did, in fact, marry the widower of her daughter. This one is SUCH a
mess (from the many sources I've seen), I'm not sure what we should do about
it. I think I have it right that Adele (the daughter) only married once
(despite what ES says which is clearly wrong). Her mother married three
times, with the last one being Adele's husband. In point of fact, ES shows
that the first 4 children of Geoffrey were from Adele and a last child
(Maurice) was the son of the 2nd wife, Adelaide (Adele's mother). But, there
is a big problem with Adelaide being the mother of Maurice (unless she married
Robert, Count of Meaux and Troyes at a VERY young age. It was common for that
to happen, though.). If she married young to Robert, she would not be too old
to be having children at the end of 979 (the year of her marriage to
Geoffrey). She had the two children by Robert in about 950. Assuming she was
15 then, she'd be 44 in 979 when she was married to Geoffrey. So, the
scenario is still possible, maybe even likely. What would you like to do about
this?"

SOOO, I asked Robert Helmerichs, a scholar at the University of Minnesota who
specializes in this time. His reply was: "You're right, it's very confusing.
Geoffrey married two women, both named Adele. The second has nothing to do
with Vermandois (that is, the mother of Maurice, a.k.a. Adelais, a.k.a.
Adelaide). The first was either the daughter of Robert of Troyes or his
sister (sister seems to carry the field these days, but there are hold-outs
for daughter). The
Adelaide who was married to Robert is another woman altogether. If you're a
real masochist, xerox the genealogical tables from the following books [Fukk
Nero, by Bachrach, etc] , then try to piece together a coherent picture from
them. What you'll learn, I think, is that genealogy in this period is an art,
not a science. Or that chaos theory (of a non-mathematical kind) reigns.

Bachrach, Bernard S. Fulk Nerra, the Neo-Roman Consul, 987-1040: A
Political Biography of the Angevin Count. Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1993.

Bur, Michel. La formation du comte de Champagne, v.950-v.1150, Memoires
des Annales de l'Est, 54. Nancy: Publications de l'Universite de Nancy
II, 1977.

Le Jan, Regine. Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franque (VIIe-Xe
siecle): Essai d'anthropologie sociale, Histoire ancienne et medievale,
33. Paris: Publications de la Sorbonne, 1995.

McKitterick, Rosamond. The Frankish Kingdoms Under the Carolingians.
London: Longman, 1983.

Riche, Pierre. The Carolingians: A Family That Made Europe, translator
Michael Idomir Allen. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press,
1993.

Settipani, Christian. "Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et
XIe siecles." Family Trees and the Roots of Politics: The Prospography
of Britain and France from the Tenth to the Twelfth Century, 211-268.
Editor K. S. B. Keats-Rohan. Woodbridge: Boydell, 1997.

Rob"

Now if anyone has a better answert than this, please e-mail me or post it.

- Ken

Kenneth Harper Finton
editor of THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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