New (?) ancestors for the Duchess of Cambridge

[Leo van de Pas]

In the ancestor list of the Duchess of Cambridge under nr. 117510 we find
Richard Belasyse who is number 1 in this small and very incomplete ancestor
list.



1.Richard Belasyse, of Henknoll

Born circa 1489, died 1540

2.William Belasyse

3.Margaret Thikeld



4.Robert Belasyse

5.Alice Lamplugh

6.Sir Lancelot Thirkeld

7.NN



8.Sir John Belasyse

9.Alice Hansard

10.Robert Lamplugh



16.William Belasyse

17.Maud Bellingham

18.Sir Robert Hansard



32.John Belasyse

33.Alice de la Hay

34.William Bellingham



64.Sir John Belasyse

65.Oswold Talbois

66.John de la Hay



Can anyone add to this?

With best wishes

Leo van de Pas

Canberra, Australia

[hoove...@yahoo.com]

Hi, Leo,

It's interesting to note that Brad referred to this family (the 2>4>8> etc. Belasyse line) a bit earlier with a slight variation in spelling. For a beginning point of reference there's "Belasyse -- Barons Fauconberg, of Yarm, co. York, Viscounts Fauconberg, of Henknowle, co. of Durham, Earls of Fauconberg in _A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire_, "new" (1883) edition, beginning on page 38.

You'll get a few more generations and, sadly, no more dates.

And good luck with your new Prime Minister!

Cordially,
Marc

[Matt A]

Miscellanea Genealogica Et Heraldica, Volume 1, p.308 (http://books.google.com/books?id=Q2BIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA309&lpg=PA309&dq=Sir+Lancelot+Thirkeld&source=bl&ots=oiveqXHIXN&sig=zVQStV8wdV7tWYEyJOW1gn2KpDQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yJrLUaj1CLis4AOQvoDoBw&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Lancelot%20Thirkeld&f=false) gives more about Sir Lancelot Thirkeld.

Plantagenet Ancestry, and sources therein (http://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA409&lpg=PA409&dq=Sir+Lancelot+Thirkeld&source=bl&ots=quJkFE4ifl&sig=WULajmZuBl0nllD2KrZgIeVY6yU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yJrLUaj1CLis4AOQvoDoBw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Lancelot%20Thirkeld&f=false), give Lancelot Thirkeld as marrying the widow of John Clifford, 9th Lord Clifford--but chronologically it looks as though Margaret Thirkeld was not her daughter.

Visitation of Cumberland 1615 mentions Lancelot Thirkeld several times, but this is obviously not contemporary (http://books.google.com/books?id=4nO5MJva0IYC&q=Threlkeld#v=onepage&q=Thirkeld&f=false).

-Matt Ahlgren

[al...@mindspring.com]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:16:49 PM UTC-4, Leo van de Pas wrote:

And this as well:

http://ingilbyhistory.ripleycastle.co.uk/ingilby_4/Bellasis%20Family%20%281500-1653%29.pdf

Doug

[al...@mindspring.com]

Leo,

Richard Belasyse, of Henknoll married Margery Errington, co-heiress of her father Richard Errington of of Cockle Park Tower, Northamptonshire and Morton, co. Durham.

BE, (1883), Belasyse of Fauconberg, Belayse of Worlaby. William Flower, Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564, Harleian Society, London, (1881), p 22. Visitation of the North, Part IV, Visitation of Yorkshire and Northumberland in A. D. 1575, and a Book of Arms from Ashmole MS. No. 834, Publications of the Surtees Society, Vol. CXLVI, Durham, (1932), p 194. Eneas Mackenzie and Marvin Ross, An Historical, Topographical, and Descriptive View of the County Palatine of Durham: Comprehending the Various Subjects of Natural, Civil, and Ecclesiastical Geography, Agriculture, Mines, Manufactures, Navigation, Trade, Commerce, Buildings, Antiquities, Curiosities, Public Institutions ..., (Mackenzie and Dent, 1834), v. 1, p 364. Volume IV of 'A History of Northumberland' by John Crawford Hodgson, printed & published by Andrew Reid & Co., 1897.


It seems likely based on the landing holdings of the Ogles in this area and the relationship of the Ogles to the Eures that this same Richard Errington was the one who was married to Eleanor(Ellen)Eure one of the co-heiresses of Robert Eure jr. and Eleanor Ingleby.

Reedpcgen, post to SGM dated 1999-6-22, Driby et al. Louise Staley, post to SGM dated 2003-8-22, Re: Thwaites/Eure.
TG, new series, XX, London, ed. H. W. Forsyth Harwood, (1904), Dugdale's Visitation of Yorkshire, pps 175-176. Harvey et al., Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 102 (Constable pedigree.

If so, and I have not seen proof as yet then this would add additional interesting ancestry via the Eure, Mallory, Ingleby and Stapleton families including royal descents.

Doug Smith

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

With respect to the male-line ancestry of Richard Belasyse, I've seen three different versions, in Collins' Peerage (Bridges ed.), Burke's Extinct Peerages, and Foster's ed. of the Yorkshire Visitations. I'm inclined to favor the Collins version, as it's much more detailed and provides at least some sources - but I'm open to differing thoughts.

In the condensed versions below I've used the surname Belasyse, although one source (Foster) spells it Bellasis. Note that the given names of the Belasyse men and their wives are sometimes different between the versions, in addition to the differences in relationships. I've started with the earliest generation in Leo's post - all three versions have several earlier generations and are consistent in these.

Collins' Peerage (Bridges ed.), vol. 6:

1. Sir John Belasyse, m. Oswald Talbois
2. John Belasyse, m. Alice de la Hay
3. William Belasyse, m. Maud Bellingham
4. Sir John Belasyse, m. Alice Hansard
5. Robert Belasyse, m. Alice Lamplugh
6. William Belasyse, m. Cecily Hoton [or Hutton]
7. Thomas Belasyse, m. (2) Margaret Thirkeld
8. Richard Belasyse, m. Margery Errington

Burke's Extinct Peerages:

1. Sir John Belasyse, m. Oswald Talbois
2. John Belasyse, m. Alice de la Hay
3. William Belasyse, m. Maud Bellingham
4. Sir John Belasyse, m. Alice Hansard
5. Robert Belasyse, m. Alice Lamplugh
6. William Belasyse, m. (2) Margaret Thirkeld
7. Richard Belasyse, m. Margery Errington

Foster's Yorkshire Visitations:

1. Sir John Belasyse, m. Oswald Talbois
2. John Belasyse, m. Alice de la Hay
3. William Belasyse, m. Maud Bellingham
4. Sir John Belasyse, m. Alice Hansard
5. John Belasyse, m. Anne Lamplugh
6. William Belasyse, m. Jennett Tipping
7. Thomas Belasyse, m. (3?) Margaret Thirkeld
8. Richard Belasyse, m. Margery Errington

I'll try to comment on some of the other families mentioned by Leo in separate posts.

[hoove...@yahoo.com]

Since I've frequently found John's sense of humor very similar to mine, I'm wondering if I might be on the same wavelength as him on a genealogical matter (with respect to one direction where he may be headed next here).

Leo's initial post prompted me to dig through notes on the late Princess of Wales' ancestry compiled in the pre-Genealogics/Google books era and my question/observation boils down to: Is Threlkeld to Thirkeld as Bellasis is to Belasyse?

From page 420 of Paget's work:

112241 John St. Paul of Snarford, son of ... etc ...
112242 Joan, daughter of Sir Bryan Stapleton of Wighill, by Joan, daughter
of Sir Lancelot Threlkeld

In my notes on Diana's ancestry I have (using, of course, Richard K. Evans' and almost everyone else's numbering system, rather than Paget's);

89136 Sir Bryan Stapleton, Kt., of Wighill, Yorks
89137 Jane THIRKELD, do. Sir Launcelot (with the "u" in the forename not
shown by Paget) Thirkeld, Kt.

89136 & 89137 from Visitation of Yorks 1584/5 & 1612, (page 333, Stapleton)

Cordially,
Marc

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Yes, Thirkeld and Threlkeld are variants of the same name. I'll leave it for others to opine as to which is "correct". (But perhaps it's less significant to some as the weighty issue of FitzAlan versus Arundel, which has been raised yet again today....)

BTW you should note that Paget and Evans use differing systems for numbering ancestors. Paget's numbers are unique only within a particular generation, not over the entire range of ancestors (the more standard practice used by Evans). So, when using the Paget numbers, it's important to include the letter identifying the generation - in this case, "Q".

So....Joan Stapleton who is Q112242 in Paget is the daughter of 89136 and 89137 in Evans.

[hoove...@yahoo.com]

Thanks as always John! I guess if I were you I wouldn't always need _you_ to clarify _I've_ said! That missing "Q" wasn't exactly a "minor" detail!

Joan may be Jane and Thirkeld may be Threlkeld but Q112242 can only mean one thing! :-) When Paget is finally replaced by Higgins/Van de Pas/Verity (alphabetical order?) and whoever else is on your team I'm wondering if you'd consider no letters designating different generations and ancestor numbers ending in an even digits being used for male ancestors and ancestor numbers ending in odd digits being used for female ancestors?

Unless the majority of your intended audience would prefer something else.

Cordially,
Marc

[Matt A]

Three of the other daughters of Sir Lancelot "Thirkel," Grace, Elizabeth, and Winifred, are mentioned in a chancery proceeding, call # [TNA] CP 1/302/44.

The link to the TNA index for this item is here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C7465030

Links to original images are here:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/ChP/C1no302/IMG_0074.htm
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/ChP/C1no302/IMG_0075.htm

Unfortunately, the document is quite worn and torn.

-Matt Ahlgren

[Matt A]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 9:16:49 PM UTC-4, Leo van de Pas wrote:

See also CP 1/301/22, which proves all three husbands of his said daughters.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C7464977

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/ChP/C1no301/IMG_0038.htm
(almost every word legible)

-Matt Ahlgren

[hoove...@yahoo.com]

The daughter Grace is Diana, Princess of Wales ancestor #17499

http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00113834&tree=LEO

http://www.genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00011573&tree=LEO

I'm not sure about validity of the Kirkbride/Blackshaw descent in the top link. However, according to various editions of the notoriously unreliable but sometimes correct "Compendium of American Genealogy" Joseph Kirkbride and Phebe Blackshaw have some of well-known descendants,

Joseph Kirkbride = Phebe Blackshaw
Martha Kirkbride = George Biles
Joanna Biles = Evan Morgan
George Morgan, of Prospect, near Princeton, New Jersey Mary Baynton
Col Joseph Morgan = Margaret Bunyan
Judge Thomas Gibbs/Gibbes Morgan = Eliza Ann McKennan
Philip Hickey Morgan [Genealogics I00025598] = Beatrice Leslie Ford
Harry Hays Morgan [I00025591] = Laura Kilpatrick [I00025592]

Phebe Blackshaw, daughter of Randall Blackshaw & Mary Burgess, of Bucks County, Pennsylvania, presumably related to Sarah Burgess, wife of Edward Pearson, ancestors of me.

I've never mentioned this ancestry to the folks down at Genealogics Headquarters since it's from "Compendium of American Genealogy" ... which isn't really a source. Although, there is a stated Willet connection as well and I know that Matt has an interest in that family.

Col Thomas Willet, (ancestor of Oliver Wendell Holmes)
Sarah Willet = Jacobus de Kay
Col Thomas de Kay = Christina Duncan
Maj George de Kay = Juliana Gale
Juliana de Kay = Capt James Bunyan
Margaret Bunyan = Col John Morgan (above)

Cordially,
Marc

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

I think the various posts in this thread have now mentioned, and probably confused, three different men named Lancelot Threlkeld. There are articles in volumes 9 and 10 of the Transactions of The Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society which distinguish the three men and provide further information on the family. I believe these volumes are available online via the Internet Archive.

First Leo mentioned Sir Lancelot whose daughter Margaret married William Belasyse (or Bellasis). This is Sir Lancelot Threlkeld of Melmerby, who is discussed in vol. 10 of TCWAAS. According to that source, he is presumably connected to the family of Threkeld of Threlkeld (which is discussed in vol. 9 of TCWAAS), but the specific connection cannot be determined.

Marc then mentioned Sir Lancelot Threlkeld whose daughter Jane/Joan married Sir Bryan Stapleton of Wighill. This is Sir Lancelot “senior” of Threlkeld, who married Margaret Bromflete. Five of the children of Sir Lancelot “senior” and Margaret Bromflete are ancestral to Princes William and Harry: two sons Sir Lancelot “junior” (below) and Christopher, and three daughters, Joan (m. Sir Bryan Stapleton), Margaret (m. Sir Christopher Moresby), and Anne (m. Sir Hugh Lowther).

Matt cited a couple of public records referring to Sir Lancelot Threlkeld and his three daughters Grace, Elizabeth, and Winifred. This is Sir Lancelot “junior” above, whose first wife (and mother of his daughters) was Ellen Radcliffe of Derwentwater. Two of the daughters of Sir Lancelot “junior” are ancestral to Princes William and Harry: Grace (m. Thomas Dudley) and Winifred (m. William Pickering).

Note that Christopher Threlkeld, mentioned above as brother of Sir Lancelot “junior”, is likewise identified as “brother and heir” [i.e., heir male] of Sir Lanceleot in the public record Matt cited:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C7464977

[Matt A]

Whoops, thanks for catching that distinction.

-Matt Ahlgren

[Chris Dickinson]

"jhigg...@yahoo.com" wrote:
 
 
> I think the various posts in this thread have now mentioned, and probably confused, three different men named Lancelot Threlkeld.  There are articles in volumes 9 and 10 of the Transactions of The Cumberland and Westmorland Antiquarian and Archaeological Society which distinguish the three men and provide further information on the family. 
 
 
 

Just for footnoting purposes:  there are two series of Transactions of the CWAAS, both numbered from Volume I. The New Series started in 1901 [Vol I] and was annual, so it's often more useful to quote the year. 
 
 
 
Chris

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

Good point.... These two volumes of TCWAAS are in the original series - vol. 9 in 1888 and vol. 10 in 1889. (or at least these are the years of the starting issue in each volume)