Payn fitz John
Greg Vaut
of John "Monoculus" fitz Richard" and uncle of William de Vescy/Vesci)?
I would also appreciate a list of the known children of this couple.
(Source citations for both please).
Thanks in advance!
Greg
Chris Phillips
Greg Vaut wrote:
> Could someone please give me the correct spouse for Payn fitz John (son
> of John "Monoculus" fitz Richard" and uncle of William de Vescy/Vesci)?
>
> I would also appreciate a list of the known children of this couple.
For the parentage of Payn's wife, Sibyl "de Lacy", see the threads on
"Lacies and Talbots".
Complete Peerage (vol. 9, pp. 424-426) proposed tentatively that Sibyl was
the daughter of the Domesday tenant Geoffrey Talbot, by his wife Agnes,
possibly a sister of Hugh de Lacy. However, W. E. Wightman, "The Lacy
Family..." (1966), p. 175, argued instead that Sibyl was the daughter of
Hugh de Lacy. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, in her Domesday books, accepted
Wightman's view, and added the proposal that Sibyl's mother was a daughter
of Geoffrey Talbot, in an attempt to explain Sibyl's known Talbot
connections. Both points of view have their difficulties.
Payn and Sibyl had two daughters:
(1) Cicely, wife of Roger, son of Miles of Gloucester, Earl of Hereford, and
of Walter de Mayenne (and also of William the Poitevin). She died without
issue [CP, vol. 6, p. 455; vol. 9, p. 419, note d].
(2) Agnes, wife of Warin de Munchensy [CP vol. 9, p. 419]
Chris Phillips
Phil Moody
Linda Jack has kindly sent me the Chart from William Farrer, ed., "Early
Yorkshire Charters," Vol. III, Edinburgh: Ballantyne, Hanson, and Co.,
1916.
1.) Eustace fitz John (d. 1157), son of John fitz Richard of Saxlingham,
married 1stly Beatrice, dau. Of Ivo de Vesci.
1.1) William de Vesci (d. 1184) spouse NN.
1.1.1) Eustace, spouse NN.
1.1.1.1) William de Vesci, parson of Berwick in Elmet. (no issue given).
1.1.1.2) Albreda, married Henry de Lacy (d. 1177), son of Robert de Lacy
and mathilda.
1.1.1.2.1) Robert de Lacy (d. s.p. 1193) married Isabel (she m. 2ndl
Gilbert de L'Aigle).
1.) Eustace fitz John (d. 1157), married 2ndly, Agnes, dau. Of William,
constable of Halton, occ. 1086.
1.2) Richard fitz Eustace married Albreda de Lisours occ. 1200), dau. Of
Robert de Lisours and Albreda de Lacy, dau of Robert de Lacy and
Mathilda.
1.2.1) John, Constable of Chester (d. 1190) m. Alice de Ver, dau. Of
Robert de Essex.
1.2.1.1) Robert de Lacy, Constable of Chester (d. 1211) married Mathilda
de Clare.
1.2.1.2) Eustace.
1.2.1.3) Richard, a leper, buried at Norton.
1.2.1.4) Geoffrey.
1.2.2) Robert, prior of the Hospital of Jerusalem.
1.2.3) Sara m. Robert de Aldeford.
1.2.4) Albreda m. Henry Biset.
The Vesci family being connect to Pontefract Lacys is where my confusion
arises from.
Best Wishes,
Phil
Chris Phillips
Phil Moody wrote:
> I am somewhat confused by all this:
>
> Linda Jack has kindly sent me the Chart from William Farrer, ed., "Early
> Yorkshire Charters," Vol. III, Edinburgh: Ballantyne, Hanson, and Co.,
> 1916.
>
> 1.) Eustace fitz John (d. 1157), son of John fitz Richard of Saxlingham,
> married 1stly Beatrice, dau. Of Ivo de Vesci.
> 1.1) William de Vesci (d. 1184) spouse NN.
> 1.1.1) Eustace, spouse NN.
> 1.1.1.1) William de Vesci, parson of Berwick in Elmet. (no issue given).
> 1.1.1.2) Albreda, married Henry de Lacy (d. 1177), son of Robert de Lacy
> and mathilda.
> 1.1.1.2.1) Robert de Lacy (d. s.p. 1193) married Isabel (she m. 2ndl
> Gilbert de L'Aigle).
I'm getting more confused by the minute.
I believe the Payn fitz John we are talking about was an elder brother of
the Eustace fitz John at the top (thus Complete Peerage chart sub Lincoln;
Vescy, vol. 12, part 2, pp. 279-274; Domesday Descendants, pp. 918, 919).
Strangely, in the chart pedigree under Lincoln, CP calls Eustace's son just
"A son, took name of Vesci". But the male line descent matches up pretty
well with what CP gives under Vescy (vol. 12, part 2, pp. 272-278). There,
William is said to die shortly before Michaelmas 1183, and is married to
Burga, daughter of Robert de Stuteville by his wife Helewise. (DD p. 769
gives him also a previous wife Agnes, by whom two daughters.) His son
Eustace is married to Margaret, an illegitimate daughter of William the
Lion, King of Scotlan, by ---, daughter of Adam de Hythus.
But as Eustace wasn't born until around 1170, it's quite impossible that
Albreda the wife of Henry de Lacy (d. 1177) could have marriage Eustace's
daughter!
> 1.) Eustace fitz John (d. 1157), married 2ndly, Agnes, dau. Of William,
> constable of Halton, occ. 1086.
> 1.2) Richard fitz Eustace married Albreda de Lisours occ. 1200), dau. Of
> Robert de Lisours and Albreda de Lacy, dau of Robert de Lacy and
> Mathilda.
> 1.2.1) John, Constable of Chester (d. 1190) m. Alice de Ver, dau. Of
> Robert de Essex.
> 1.2.1.1) Robert de Lacy, Constable of Chester (d. 1211) married Mathilda
> de Clare.
> 1.2.1.2) Eustace.
> 1.2.1.3) Richard, a leper, buried at Norton.
> 1.2.1.4) Geoffrey.
> 1.2.2) Robert, prior of the Hospital of Jerusalem.
> 1.2.3) Sara m. Robert de Aldeford.
> 1.2.4) Albreda m. Henry Biset.
Again, this is consistent with what CP gives under Lincoln (younger children
not being namd here), except that CP calls the husband of Matilda de Clare
Roger, not Robert.
The parentage of Alice the wife of John the Constable has been discussed
several times - I think opinion now favours her being a daughter of another
of her mother's husbands, Roger fitz Richard.
Chris Phillips
Phil Moody
Phil Moody wrote:
> I am somewhat confused by all this:
>
> Linda Jack has kindly sent me the Chart from William Farrer, ed.,
"Early
> Yorkshire Charters," Vol. III, Edinburgh: Ballantyne, Hanson, and Co.,
> 1916.
>
> 1.) Eustace fitz John (d. 1157), son of John fitz Richard of
Saxlingham,
> married 1stly Beatrice, dau. Of Ivo de Vesci.
> 1.1) William de Vesci (d. 1184) spouse NN.
> 1.1.1) Eustace, spouse NN.
This line ends with "Eustace", and it is followed by an upside-down Y;
which I presume means that the line continues. Further over, another
Eustace de Vesci is said to be the father of William de Vesci and
Albreda below. I may be misinterpreting the chart, but as I have not
seen Farrer's work; I cannot assess exactly what he says, or means
concerning this chart. Perhaps Linda could clarify this; if she still
has access to the reference?
> 1.1.1.1) William de Vesci, parson of Berwick in Elmet. (no issue
given).
> 1.1.1.2) Albreda, married Henry de Lacy (d. 1177), son of Robert de
Lacy
> and mathilda.
> 1.1.1.2.1) Robert de Lacy (d. s.p. 1193) married Isabel (she m. 2ndl
> Gilbert de L'Aigle).
Best Wishes,
Phil
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Phillips [mailto:c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk]
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 2:59 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Payn fitz John
Chris Phillips
Phil Moody wrote:
> This line ends with "Eustace", and it is followed by an upside-down Y;
> which I presume means that the line continues. Further over, another
> Eustace de Vesci is said to be the father of William de Vesci and
> Albreda below. I may be misinterpreting the chart, but as I have not
> seen Farrer's work; I cannot assess exactly what he says, or means
> concerning this chart. Perhaps Linda could clarify this; if she still
> has access to the reference?
By a lucky coincidence, Tim Powys-Lybbe has just sent me some copied
extracts from Wightman's book on the Lacys, including some I hadn't seen
myself. Wightman says that the wife of Henry de Lacy was probably a daughter
of Eustace fitz John by his first wife Beatrice de Vesci (apparently this is
argued on p. 85 of his book, which I haven't seen). So if Henry's wife is
called "de Vesci", it would be another example of a woman using her mother's
surname.
I wrote previously:
> I believe the Payn fitz John we are talking about was an elder brother of
> the Eustace fitz John at the top (thus Complete Peerage chart sub Lincoln;
> Vescy, vol. 12, part 2, pp. 279-274; Domesday Descendants, pp. 918, 919).
Sorry - that's not quite right. The article on Vescy (and Appendix B in vol.
12, pt 2, by Sir Charles Clay, on "The Origin of Eustace FitzJohn") argue
that Payn was the elder son, but the Lincoln chart pedigree shows him as "?
2nd son". Keats-Rohan in Domesday Descendants, follows the Vescy article by
saying that Payn was probably the elder son, but Wightman describes Payn as
a younger son, without discussion (I can't see any indication that Wightman
was familiar with the Vscy aticle in CP).
For what it's worth, Wightman follows CP in calling the son of John,
Constable of Chester (d. 1190), Roger, not Robert de Lacy. But he does seem
to have been simply copying the Lincoln chart in CP, as he also duplicates
the error made there by calling John's father Robert, not Richard.
Chris Phillips
Phil Moody
By a lucky coincidence, Tim Powys-Lybbe has just sent me some copied
extracts from Wightman's book on the Lacys, including some I hadn't seen
myself. Wightman says that the wife of Henry de Lacy was probably a
daughter
of Eustace fitz John by his first wife Beatrice de Vesci (apparently
this is
argued on p. 85 of his book, which I haven't seen). So if Henry's wife
is
called "de Vesci", it would be another example of a woman using her
mother's
surname.
PLM: Not impossible if assume Eustace fitz John was also known as
Eustace de Vesci. Farrer's chart has two William de Vesci's, one being
the son of Eustace de Vesci, and the other being the son of Eustace fitz
John and Beatrice de Vesci. If Wightman's conjecture is right, then both
these Williams are the same person, and the line continued with a son
named Eustace. It would also mean that two children of Eustace fitz John
married an heir of Robert de Lacy and Matilda. The chronology appears to
be strained; so I'm hesitant to agree with Wightman at this point. The
death date for this Henry de Lacy (1177) looks suspicious to me as well,
because it would mean that he outlived both his brothers by more than 35
years, so there is room for another generation here.
Linda Jack
Sorry, but I can't offer any additional information on the chart on page
199. The chart lacks an introduction or any explanatory information. I
have looked at the other charts in the volume and did not see a
continuation of the information on this chart. It is frustrating to
have nearly 500 pages of documents without an index (Early Yorkshire
Charters v.III), but I am sure there is a lot of good information in the
charters and in Farrer's copious notes.
You may also want to check Charles Henry Hartshorne's "Feudal and
Military Antiquities of Northumberland" (London: Bell and Daldy)1858. I
have in my notes that there is information on the early de Vescy family
in pages 140-147 but I don't have the volume at hand. This section is
related to Alnwick Castle and Abbey.
Linda
Phil Moody
I was hoping Farrer went into some detail on these charts in his
introduction to the book, but no matter; I will eventually order it
myself. I spotted an interesting detail in one of the charters which is
not included in Farrer's chart concerning the wife of Ilbert de lacy on
page 189.
1465 Confirmation of Henry de Lascy to the monks of Pontefract of 1
carucate in Ingoldmells (co. Linc.), which dame Alice, the wife of Roger
de Mowbray, gave for the soul of Ilbert, her first husband, brother of
the grantor. 1144-1155.
Chartul. Of Pontefract, at Woodley Hall, f. 3d. Pd. In Chartul. Of
Pontefract, n. 16.
H[enricus] de Laceio omnibus hominibus suis cunctisque sancta matris
ecclesie fidelibus salutem. Sciatis quod confirmo et concede monachis
meis de Pontefracto carrucatam terre in Golvesmeles quam domina Aliz
uxor Rogerii de Molbrai dedit eis pro anima prioris domini sui Ilberti
fratris mei in perpetuam elemosinam, liberam et quietam ab omnibus
servitiis sicut decet elemosinam, in plano, in aquis, in pratis et in
omnibus apenticiis que pertinent predicte terre. Hujus donationis testes
sunt, Samson capellanus Rogerii, Richardus Gubold, Radulfus et Rogerius
de Tilli, Willelmus de Merl[ai], Nicholaus capellanus, Hugo de
Mainilhermer, Landri de Age, Moel, domina Gundrea, Matilda de lasci,
Aliz de Albemarla, Johannes de Inpingeam."
EQ
1.) Alice (Aliz), dau. Of Walter de Gant married 1stly Ilbert de lacy,
and 2ndly Roger de Mowbray.
2.) Witness, Matilda de Lasci I presume to be the mother of Ilbert and
Henry de Lacy.
3.) Witness', Radulfus et Rogerius de Tilli would appear to be the
grandsons of William de Clerfait and Avice de Tanai from their daughter
Sybil's marriage to Ralph de Tilli (I). This is ten or more years before
William de Clerfait's marriage to Albreda de Lisours; so he must have
been pretty old if his grandchildren are adults at the time of this
charter.
4.) Witness, Aliz de Albemarla would undoubtedly be the daughter of
William le Gros, Count of Aumale and Baron of Holderness. William had
married Cecily, the daughter of William fitz Duncan and Alice (Aliz),
Lady of Skipton. So, it would be natural for William le Gros to name a
daughter after his mother-in-law.
Aliz (Alice) is distinctly different from Hawise; so I feel certain that
William le Gros had more than one daughter. CP writes: "4. Hawise, 1st
(or, more probably, only) da. And h., suc. Her father in the Comté of
Aumale and the Lordship of Holderness." Well, I think we can strike
through this portion of CP's entry, "(or, more probably, only)":-)
Best Wishes,
Phil