Crusader ancestors (long)
Nathaniel Taylor
de Lovel, of Minster Lovel, Oxfordshire, crusader, d. ca 1212/13." This
is odd. AR has many known crusaders in it, who are not consistently so
flagged. Why William de Lovel? Is it because Weis could find nothing
else to say about him?
I would like to bring the interesting distinction of participation in
the Crusades into sharper relief among the ancestors many of us share.
Not since the nineteenth century, to my knowledge, have there been any
attempts to list and note crusaders with reference to their modern
descendants (I posted a short bibliography of such works just over a
year ago). The one modern scholarly list of crusaders is an appendix to
Jonathan Riley-Smith's _The First Crusaders_, which compiles a list of
crusaders from the First Crusade and the immediately succeeding
generation, but not with specifi reference to descents.
As a preliminary effort at generating some discussion of crusade
ancestors, I am including the beginnings of an annotated list of
crusader ancestors of a specific contemporary individual, not quite
arbitrarily selected: George Walker Bush, current president of the
United States.
Mr. Bush has a handful of gateway ancestors, English or Scottish
immigrants to the American colonies, through whom such descents may be
traced. Having several descents from Edward I, he represents a sort of
middle ground among modern American descendants of colonial gateway
immigrants, and his ancestry will include a sprinkling but not
necessarily a flood of crusader ancestors. Many descendants of Edward
III will have more crusader ancestors, including some who will have a
large clutch of Fourth-Crusade and Crusader-Kingdom ancestors whose
lines come into Britain through Jacquetta de Luxembourg. I am not aware
that Mr. Bush has a descent from Jacquetta de Luxembourg; if he does, I
would like to be corrected!
I have grouped the crusaders in this list by specific campiagn. The
descents are in large part culled from the Internet, including Leo's
_Genealogics_ site, and the excellent AT of Mr. Bush (with notation of
gateway ancestors) now on Brigitte Gastel-Lloyd's website, which was
apparently compiled by William Addams Reitwiesner (though the
attribution on Brigitte's site is ambiguous, with WAR's name at the end
of the pages, but another's name at the head).
I invite additions and corrections! For example, I'm sure Bush descends
from English participants in the Earl of Cornwall's crusade of
1240-1242. Can anyone come up with such a descent?
For convenience, and because I have used only three of them below, I
here list Mr. Bush's gateway ancestors (American colonial immigrants
with undisputed lines into medieval nobility):
Jane (Allen) Bulkley
Obadiah Bruen
Rev. Peter Bulkley
George Elkington
Katherine (Hamby) Hutchinson
Robert Livingston
Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson
Dr. Richard Palgrave
============================================================
Bush Crusader Ancestors
I. First Crusade
1. Hugh, Count of Vermandois: brother of the king of France, and one of
the original leaders of the First Crusade. He was shipwrecked while
crossing the Adriatic with is cohort in 1096, but reunited with the
other leaders at Constantinople. He went with the main host to Antioch,
but returned to Constantinople, then to France after the conquest of
Antioch in 1098. Returning to the Holy Land in 1101 with a fresh force
to support the new kingdom of Jerusalem, he was defeated in a battle in
Asia Minor, and died of his wounds at Tarsus, 18 October 1101.
Hugh, brother to Philip I of France = Adelaide, countess of Vermandois
Isabel de Vermandois = Sir Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester
Sir Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester = Amice de Montfort
Sir Robert de Beaumont, 3rd Earl of Leicester = Pernel de Grandmesnil
Margaret de Beaumont = Saher de Quency, 1st Earl of Winchester
Roger de Quency, 2nd Earl of Winchester = Helen of Galloway
Elizabeth de Quency = Alexander Comyn, 2nd Earl of Buchan
Elizabeth Comyn = Gilbert de Umfreville, 1st Earl of Angus
Robert de Umfreville, 2nd Earl of Angus = Lucy de Kyme
Elizabeth Umfreville = Gilbert de Boroughdon
Eleanor de Boroughdon, Baroness Kyme = Henry Talboys
Walter Talboys, Baron Kyme = Margaret ____
Sir John Talboys = Agnes Cokefield
John Talboys = Katherine Cibthorpe
Margaret Talboys = John Ayscough
Elizabeth Ayscough = William Booth
John Booth = Anne Thimbleby
Eleanor Booth = Edward Hamby
William Hamby = Margaret Blewitt
Robert Hamby = Elizabeth Arnold
Katherine Hamby = Edward Hutchinson
Elisha Hutchinson = Elizabeth Clarke
Elisha Hutchinson = Hannah Hawkins
Hannah Hutchinson = John Ruck
Hannah Ruck = Theophilus Lillie
John Lillie = Abigail Breck
Anna Lillie = Samuel Howard
Harriet Howard = Samuel Prescott Phillips Fay
Samuel Howard Fay = Susan Shellman
Harriet Eleanor Fay = James Smith Fay
Samuel Prescott Bush = Flora Sheldon
Prescott Sheldon Bush = Dorothy Walker
George Herbert Walker Bush = Barbara Pierce
George Walker Bush
--------------
2. Stephen, Count of Blois
Another of the original leaders of the First Crusade. Stephen gave up
and went home during the long siege of Antioch in 1097-1098, for which
he was roundly reviled. He returned to the Holy Land in 1101, but was
killed by the Fatimids at Ramleh in 1102. Some of his letters home
survive, and make interesting reading about the whole endeavor.
Stephen, Count of Blois = Adela (dau. Wm. the Conqueror)
Stephen, K. of England = Maud of Boulogne
Marie of Blois = Matthew, C. of Boulogne
Maud of Boulogne = Henry I, Duke of Brabant
Henry II, Duke of Brabant = Maria von Hohenstaufen
Matilda of Brabant = Robert, Count of Artois (brother of Saint Louis)
Blanche of Artois = Edmund 'Crouchback', Earl of Lancaster
Henry, 3rd Earl of Lancaster = Maud de Chaworth
Eleanor of Lancaster = Richard FitzAlan, 9th Earl of arundel
Richard Fitzalan, 10th Earl of Arundel = Elizabeth de Bohun
Elizabeth Fitzalan = Sir Robert Goushill of Everingham
Elizabeth Goushill = Sir Robert Wingfield of Leveringham
Elizabeth Wingfield = Sir William Brandon of Wangford
Eleanor Brandon = John Glemham, of Glemham, Suffolk
Anne Glemham = Henry Palgrave
Thomas Palgrave = Alice Gunton
Rev. Edward Palgrave = NN
Dr. Richard Palgrave = Anna ?
Mary Palgrave = Roger Wellington
Benjamin Wellington = Elizabeth Sweetman
Elizabeth Wellington = John Fay
John Fay = Hannah Child
Jonathan Fay = Joanna Phillips
Jonathan Fay = Lucy Prescott
Samuel Prescott Phillips Fay = Harriet Howard
Samuel Howard Fay = Susan Shellman
Harriet Eleanor Fay = James Smith Fay
Samuel Prescott Bush = Flora Sheldon
Prescott Sheldon Bush = Dorothy Walker
George Herbert Walker Bush = Barbara Pierce
George Walker Bush
==============
II. Second Crusade
3. Louis VII, K. of France. Led the second Crusade, 1147-48, which
ended with the politically ill-considered and tactically botched attempt
to take Damascus. Note his queen at the time was Eleanor of Aquitaine,
who accompanied him and is blamed by William of Tyre for indirectly
dooming the campaign. She is also a Bush ancestor.
Louis VII, K. of France = Alix of Blois / Champagne
Philip II Augustus, K. of France = Isabelle of Flanders
Louis VIII, K. of France = Blanche of Castile
Robert, Count of Artois = Matilda of Brabant (see above, no. 2)
--------------
4. Affonso Henriquez, conqueror of Lisbon, 1147 (a Portuguese force with
some Flemish and English volunteers, with church privileges, besieged
and took Lisbon (in the process slaughtering its resident Christian
bishop). Can we find any English crusaders at Lisbon in the Bush
ancestry?
Affonso Henriques, 1st K. of Portugal = Matilda de Savoie
Urraca of Portugal = Fernando II, K. of León
Alfonso IX, K. of León = Berengaria of Castile
Fernando III, K. of Castile / León = Jeanne de Dammartin
Eleanor of Castile = Edward I, K. of England
Joan 'of Acre' = Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hereford
Eleanor de Clare = Hugh le Despencer, 1st Baron Despencer
Isabel Despencer = Richard FitzAlan, 9th Earl of Arundel
Isabel FitzAlan = John le Strange, 4th Baron Strange of Blackmere
Ankeret le Strange = Richard Talbot, 4th Baron Talbot
Mary Talbot = Sir Thomas Greene
Sir Thomas Greene = Philippa Ferrers
Elizabeth Greene = William Raleigh
Sir Edward Raleigh = Margaret Verney
Edward Raleigh = Anne Chamberlayne
Bridget Raleigh = Sir John Cope
Elizabeth Cope = John Dryden
Bridget Dryden = Francis Marbury
Anne Marbury = William Hutchinson
Edward Hutchinson = Katherine Hamby (see above, no. 1)
==============
III. Third Crusade
5. Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor. He led the German force of
the Third Crusade in 1190, but drowned while crossing a river in Asia
Minor en route to Palestine, before any major engagements with the enemy.
Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor = Beatrice de Bourgogne
Philip, King of the Romans = Eirene Angelina
Maria von Hohenstaufen = Henry II, Duke of Brabant (see above, no. 3)
--------------
6. Philip Augustus, K. of France. Led the French continent on the Third
Crusade. Philip and Richard Lion-heart were famously allies and rivals
in the siege and reconquest of Acre in the spring of 1191. After the
capitulation of Acre, Philip Augustus went home.
(see above, no. 3)
==============
IV. Fourth Crusade (Zara, Constantinople, 1202-04)
???? (can anyone find a Fourth Crusader in the Bush ancestry? There
are a great many in the ancestry of Jacquetta de Luxembourg, but Bush
does not to my knowledge share this ancestry).
==============
V. Fifth Crusade (Damietta, 1219)
7. Hugues 'le Brun', Count of La Marche. One of the second tier of
nobles in the Fifth Crusade. He was killed at some point in the assault
and occupation of Damietta, 1218-19.
Hugues 'le Brun' de Lusignan, Count of La Marche = Agathe de Preuilly
Hugues X de Lusignan, Count of La Marche = Isabella of Angouleme
Alix de Lusignan = William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey
William de Warenne = Joane de Vere
Alice de Warenne = Edmund FitzAlan, 8th Earl of Arundel
Richard FitzAlan, 9th Earl of Arundel (see above, no. )
==============
VI. Albigensian Crusade (1209-1226, etc.)
8. Louis VIII, K. of France. Led the second great wave of assault on
Toulouse and environs in the 'Albigensian Crusade' (a war of enforcement
of orthodoxy and French annexation of hitherto autonomous Languedoc).
Died of dysentery in the Auvergne on his return northward from Toulouse,
1226.
(see above, no. 3)
==============
VII. First Crusade of Saint Louis (Damietta, 1249-50, etc.)
9. Robert of Artois. Brother of Saint Louis and his companion on this
crusade, Robert of Artois led the crusaders in a disastrous assault on
Mansourah that turned into a massacre, in which he and a great many
others died (including a large English contingent--any Bush ancestors
there?), February 1250.
(see above, no. 2)
--------------
10. Hugues X de Lusignan, Count of La Marche, d. 1249 at Damietta.
Also, as a young man, had accompanied his father on the fifth crusade.
Like his father, Hugh X was killed or died of wounds in this campaign.
(see above, no. 7)
==============
VIII. The 'Lord Edward's Crusade' (Acre, 1271-1272)
11. Edward I (future) K. of England
The Lord Edward, with a continent of about 1000 English knights, sailed
to Acre (bypassing the crusade which had evaporated with Saint Louis'
death at Tunis), where he spent a year strengthening the city and
negotiating peace with the Mamluk sultan Baybars. His daughter Joan,
from whom Bush descends, was born at Acre in 1272.
(see above, no. 4)
============================================================
Nat Taylor
Francisco Antonio Doria
Just a remark: Afonso Henriques was no crusader, but
it is well-known that several non-Portuguese crusaders
were his companions at Lisbon in 1147.
We know the name of one of them: Osbern, who left a
detailed chronicle of the conquest of Lisbon.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
escreveu: > Browsing in AR7 the other day, I found the
=== message truncated ===
______________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! GeoCities: a maneira mais fácil de criar seu web site grátis!
http://br.geocities.yahoo.com/
Nathaniel Taylor
franciscoa...@yahoo.com.br (Francisco Antonio Doria) wrote:
> Just a remark: Afonso Henriques was no crusader, but
> it is well-known that several non-Portuguese crusaders
> were his companions at Lisbon in 1147.
>
> We know the name of one of them: Osbern, who left a
> detailed chronicle of the conquest of Lisbon.
Fair enough. I was including Affonso as a sort of placeholder, to
solicit input on known English or Fleming participants. Though by some
historians' definition, the native Iberian monarchs at Lisbon, Almeria,
Las Navas de Tolosa, etc., also count as 'crusaders', though the foreign
volunteers certainly match the more commonly held definition.
Nat Taylor
Hans Vogels
Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nathanieltaylor-B8...@news04.east.earthlink.net>...
[snip]
> Harriet Howard = Samuel Prescott Phillips Fay
> Samuel Howard Fay = Susan Shellman
> Harriet Eleanor Fay = James Smith Fay
> Samuel Prescott Bush = Flora Sheldon
> Prescott Sheldon Bush = Dorothy Walker
> George Herbert Walker Bush = Barbara Pierce
> George Walker Bush
Perhaps it should be read as
Samuel Howard Fay = Susan Shellman
Harriet Eleanor Fay = James Smith Bush
Samuel Prescott Bush = Flora Sheldon
etc.
Hans Vogels
Nathaniel Taylor
volu...@chello.nl (Hans Vogels) wrote:
Indeed. And I must admit that I cut and pasted this part of the
ancestry from a net source which had the same error!
Nat Taylor
Francisco Antonio Doria
OK, Nat :))
If you wish you can add my very very distant ancestors
Simon Doria (at St John d'Acre, 1190) and his son
Niccolò Doria. Through Branca Doria, the notorious one
- in my opinion he was a kind of Don Vito Corleone,
just that - who is a pivotal ancestor for European
nobility, most people, even in the US and UK, are
descended from them.
fa
--- Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
escreveu: > In article
______________________________________________________________________
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat, Chico, et al.,
Two additions for your Crusader lists, concerning the ancestry of
President
George W. Bush:
1. Participants in the Fourth Crusade (ca. 1203/04):
I show Henry I, Duke of Brabant (d. 1233) was a participant in the
Crusade.
He is shown in your post, under 'Stephen, Count of Blois' as husband of Maud
of
Boulogne (4th generation).
There doesn't seem to be any other '4th Crusader' in Pres. Bush's
ancestry, as
far as is currently known. If a descent from Edward III of England could be
proven, that would solve this 'problem'....
2. English crusaders at Lisbon, 1147:
I show Hervey de Glanville, father of the famed Ranulf de Glanville
(Justiciar
of England, and companion of Richard Coeur-de-Lion on the 3rd Crusade), was
leader
of the English force at Lisbon in 1147. The descent from de Glanville to
George W.
Bush has only the one link subject to question, that involving the exact
parentage
of Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham, Lord Everingham (generation #9).
The
parentage given for Clarice in the pedigree below is likely, but unproven.
Hope this is of interest.
Cheers,
John *
1 Hervey de Glanville = Mabel [1]
2 Ranulf de Glanville, Justiciar of England = Bertha de Valoins [5] [10]
3 Matilda de Glanville = William d'Auberville [1]
4 William d'Auberville [1] = NN
5 Hugh d'Auberville = Joan [8]
6 Clarice d'Auberville = Fulk FitzWarin [9] [10] [11]
7 Mabel FitzWarin = (2ndly) John de Tregoz, Lord Tregoz [10] [11] [13]
8 Clarice de Tregoz = Sir Roger la Warre, Lord la Warre [10]
9 [CONJECTURED] Clarice La Warre = Adam de Everingham,
Lord Everingham[10],[14],[15]
10 Adam de Everingham, Lord Everingham = Joan Deiville [10] [18]
11 Margaret de Everingham = Hugh de Hastings [10] [18] [20]
12 Margaret Hastings = Sir John Wingfield of Letheringham [18] [19] [21]
[22]
13 Sir Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Russell [24]
14 Sir Robert Wingfield = Elizabeth Goushill [25] [26] *
* This generation links to the descent given by Nat Taylor, from Stephen,
Count of Blois to Pres. George Bush.
DOCUMENTATION
1. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge,
2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2, 2002, p. 723
(Osmund de
Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants: A Prosopography of
Persons,
Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166: Pipe Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
2. Wm. Urmston S. Glanville-Richards, Esq., "Records of the Anglo-Norman
House of
Glanville from A.D. 1050 to 1880," London: Mitchell & Hughes, 1882, from
website: cbr.nc.us.mensa.org/homepages/jglanville
3. "Circaria Angliae: Monasticon Praemonstratense," Norbert Backmund,
http://www.premontre.org/subpages/loci/monasticon/circariae/2ang.htm
cites records of the Premonstratensian order and, the foundations of
their
priories, full title: Monasticon Praemonstratense, Id est Historia
Circariarum
atque Canoniarum Candidi et Canonici Ordinis Praemonstratensis, Tomus
Primus
/ Volume II , Ecclesiae Windbergensis in Bavaria Canonico , Staubing,
1952.
4. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1999, 129,
152
Yale English Monarchs series.
5. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Liber Vitae of Durham, folio 58 - Chronology,
Genealogy,"
August 9, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations from
Rosie
Bevan : rbe...@paradise.net.nz, citation from vol. 13, p. 17 Surtees
Soc., Liber
Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmensis.
6. "PIPE ROLL OF 31 HENRY I (1130),"
http://www.constitution.org/sech/sech_025.txt
includes citations from the Pipe Roll 31 Hen I (1129/30), also from other
'miscellaneous' rolls: e.g. 5 Steph (1139), re: Hugh d'Auberville.
7. Ray Phair, "Ranulf de Glanville," Feb 22, 1999, paper copy: library of
John P.
Ravilious, cites "Early Yorkshire Charters" (EYC), ed. W. Farrer and C.T.
Clay,
1914-65, 5:234-7, 302-3. Also W. Dugdale, "The baronage of England",
repr. 1977,
1:423-4.,, Surtees Soc. 83:61-2 (1899), ed. J.C. Atkinson; EYC 2:118-9.
8. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, Tho.
Newcomb
[reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New York, 1977].
9. Chris Phillips, "Re: CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and His
Descendants,"
May 9, 2003, paper copy: library of John Ravilious, cites Curia Regis
Rolls,
vol. 16, p. 165 - Trin. Term 23 Hen III (1239) m. 14, re: Agnes filia
Warini;
Excerpta e Rotulis Finium 2:89 (34 Hen III m. 2), re: Clarice, wife of
Fulk Fitz
Warin;, CCR 1251-53 p. 208 (36 Hen III m. 20d), re: Fulk fitz Warin
'junior' vs.
John le Vavasour, Chris Phillips, c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk.
10. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United
Kingdom.
11. John P. Ravilious, "CP Correction: Fulk 'III' FitzWarin and His
Descendants,"
May 3, 2003, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Close Rolls of the Reign
of
Henry III (1227-1272), Vol. II p. 210, as cited in the Gazetteer of
Markets and
Fairs:, and the records of King’s Bench from 1249, as cited by Janet
Meisel,
Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf and Fitz Warin
Families,
1066-1272, p. 96.
12. "Barons of the Welsh Frontier: The Corbet, Pantulf and Fitz Warin
Families,
1066-1272," Janet Meisel, Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press.
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham (Clarice la
Warre ?),"
Feb 19, 2003, email, the...@aol.com (paper copy: library of John
Ravilious,
cites MABEL, LATE THE WIFE OF JOHN TREGOZ - Writ 24 May, 25 Edw I,
[BEDFORD]
Inq Wednesday after St Barnabas, 25 Edw I, also CIPM v.7 no.676, the IPM
of
William de Grandison (1335).
14. John P. Ravilious, "A Possible Everingham Solution: Clarice La Warre,"
June 14,
2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious.
15. John P. Ravilious, "A Possible Everingham Solution: Clarice La Warre, Pt.
II,"
Sept. 1, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious.
16. "International Genealogical Index," IGI: published through LDS website,
www.familysearch.org, extracted on various dates.
17. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327," I. J.
Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
18. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy
King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes, Printers,
London,
1881, pp. 154-156: pedigree of Hastings of Elsing ('Hastynges..' of
Fenwick, co.
Yorks.), 'The Visitation of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
19. Rosie Bevan, "Re: New MC and PA Line, Joan Hastings (wife of Thomas, 4th
Lord
Morley)," June 26, 2001, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Visitation of
Huntingdonshire, 1613 (Harleian series), Wingfield pedigrees.
20. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
21. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet," Jan 20, 2003,
email royala...@msn.com.
22. Douglas Richardson, "Re: New Hastings connection," July 22, 2002, paper
copy,
library of John P. Ravilious, re: new forthcoming publication by Douglas
Richardson, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Cent Colonists (3rd ed.).
23. Todd A. Farmerie, "Re: Faris Connection," Oct 3, 1996,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
24. "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on Their History and Devolution," W. A.
Copinger,
M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
25. Gary Boyd Roberts, "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants to the American
Colonies," Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co., 1993.
26. David Faris, "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists,"
Boston:
New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999, (2nd edition, 1999).
_____________________________________________
* John P. Ravilious
Doug McDonald
>
>
> There doesn't seem to be any other '4th Crusader' in Pres. Bush's
> ancestry, as
> far as is currently known. If a descent from Edward III of England could be
> proven, that would solve this 'problem'....
>
OK, who?
Doug McDonald
Nathaniel Taylor
> Two additions for your Crusader lists, concerning the ancestry of
> President George W. Bush:
>
>
> 1. Participants in the Fourth Crusade (ca. 1203/04):
>
> I show Henry I, Duke of Brabant (d. 1233) was a participant in the
> Crusade.
Can you cite this? Runciman places him in the German crusade in
Palestine of 1197-1198, which was concerned with the transition between
the death of Henry of Champagne and the election / marriage of Amalric
of Cyprus (Runciman 3:91, 93, 96). But Runciman doesn't mention him as
a Fourth Crusader. I don't have some of the standard modern 4th Crusade
works handy, but he doesn't appear to be in Villehardouin and he isn't
in Gunther of Pairis. Perhaps he, like the young Simon de Montfort,
went as far as Zara in 1202 and returned home?
> 2. English crusaders at Lisbon, 1147:
>
> I show Hervey de Glanville, father of the famed Ranulf de Glanville
> (Justiciar of England, and companion of Richard Coeur-de-Lion on the 3rd
> Crusade), was leader of the English force at Lisbon in 1147. The descent
> from de Glanville to George W. Bush has only the one link subject to
> question, that involving the exact parentage of Clarice, wife of Sir Adam
> de Everingham, Lord Everingham (generation #9).
This is interesting; thanks. Runciman calls the crusade leader 'Henry de
Glanville, Constable of Suffolk' (2:258). Is there no doubt about the
identities in this descent? Does Keats-Rohan make the explicit
identification between the crusader and the jurist? If not, where else
is this line treated?
Nat Taylor
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Fair enough. I was including Affonso as a sort of placeholder, to
> solicit input on known English or Fleming participants. Though by some
> historians' definition, the native Iberian monarchs at Lisbon, Almeria,
> Las Navas de Tolosa, etc., also count as 'crusaders', though the foreign
> volunteers certainly match the more commonly held definition.
With this modification, Affonso's father would qualify.
taf
ADRIANC...@aol.com
theorised that he was the same William Longsword, eldest of the five sons of
Count William III of Montferrat who in 1176 went to the kingdom of Jerusalem at
the invitation of Baldwin IV. He married Sibylla, the heiress of the kingdom,
but died soon afterwards. His posthumous son became Baldwin V, under the
guardianship of his grandfather William III, but Wm III was taken prisoner at
Hittin in 1187.
Adrian
John wrotw;
<snip>
> 2. English crusaders at Lisbon, 1147:
>
> I show Hervey de Glanville, father of the famed Ranulf de Glanville
> (Justiciar
> of England, and companion of Richard Coeur-de-Lion on the 3rd Crusade), was
> leader
> of the English force at Lisbon in 1147. The descent from de Glanville to
> George W.
> Bush has only the one link subject to question, that involving the exact
> parentage
> of Clarice, wife of Sir Adam de Everingham, Lord Everingham (generation #9).
>
Nathaniel Taylor
> Re: Henry I of Brabant, that (he was in the 'Fourth' Crusade) is
> what I have in my notes; I will go back to track the source for same.
>
> As to the crusader de Glanville, Osbern's "De expugnatione
> Lyxbonensi" [see extract below] clearly identifies him as Hervey (not
> Henry). I take this to be therefore a transcription/editing error in
> Runciman's History of the Crusades. I do not have a copy of Domesday
> Descendants to hand, but my notes from an early read through DD give
> the following, indicating that Keats-Rohan indeed identified Ranulf's
> father as the crusader.
Just so. I don't have the English translation of _De expugnatione
Lyxbonensis_ on my shelf, but I see Amazon offers a 'peek inside' of the
2000 reprint, complete with index pages, which show both Hervey de
Glanville and the jurist Ranulf in the index. So Runciman's 'Henry' is
simply wrong--not the only error in that vast but engaging narrative.
Now I will review your posts over the question of these folks' link to
the Bush ancestry. But if the line appears sound, both Hervey and
Ranulf should be on the George W. Bush crusader ancestors list.
Now, I suspect Henry of Brabant was only in the 1198 crusade and not
that of 1202, but again, I'm happy to be proved wrong. At any rate, he
didn't appear to have participated in the dismemberment of the Byzantine
empire. The numbering of the crusades is something of an arbitrary
convention, anyhow: the 1197-98 crusade has no number in the common
reckoning. But Henry shall certainly be added to this list as well, for
the 1197-98 crusade.
Still no takers for the 1241-42 crusade of Richard, Earl of Cornwall?
How about other known Third Crusaders, with Richard Lionheart?
Bush descends from David, Earl of Huntington, the inspiration for the
lovelorn incognito prince in Sir Walter Scott's Third-Crusade novel _The
Talisman_, but people now doubt that he went, I think.
Nat Taylor
Francisco Antonio Doria
Adrian,
Not attested in contemporary documents. No doubts
about it.
fa
--- ADRIANC...@aol.com escreveu: > From past
______________________________________________________________________
Leo van de Pas
someone will display one but I doubt there is one.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat,
Below is a list of those individuals I show who (A) are ancestors
of George W. Bush, and (B) were participants in one of the 'named'
Crusades, or otherwise involved at one time or another in 'crusading'.
~ Besides those individuals already identified in earlier posts
(e.g., Stephen of Blois).
'The Margravine Ida' (listed below) is probably the most famed
female crusader, besides Eleanor of Aquitaine, anyway. Her fabled
career is likely far more colourful than what was likely a miserable
death in the defeat at Heraclea.
You will note, in answer to your query as to English 'Third
Crusaders', this includes 12 more crusaders not previously named in
this thread: of these, 10 are English (i.e. English landholders) and
1 -- Ralph d'Exoudun - was a tenant of Richard 'Coeur-de-Lion' as
comte d'Eu, and his companion.
Hope this is of interest.
Cheers,
John *
1. First Crusade
a. Stephen, Count of Aumale (d. 1127)
- companion of his uncle Robert 'Curthose', Duke of Normandy
b. Welf IV, Duke of Bavaria (d. Cyprus, Nov. 1101)
c. Eudes I 'the Red', Duke of Burgundy (d. 1102)
d. Enguerrand, sieur de Coucy (d. 1118)
e. Thomas, son of Enguerrand ['Thomas de Marle']
f. Leopold 'II', markgraf of Austria (d. 12 Oct 1102)
* g. Ida von Formbach, "the Margravine Ida", d. at Heraclea, 1101
~ Runciman is confident of her death - her presence provides
the basis for a number of legends, including supposed
'inclusion' subsequently in a Moslem harem........
h. Gerard de Gournay, of Caister, Norfolk, and
seigneur de Gournay-en-Bray
i. Hugh 'VI' de Lusignan (slain at Ramleh with Stephen of
Blois, 18 May 1102)
j. Etienne 'Tete-hardi' of Macon ('Count Stephen of Burgundy'),
(also slain at Ramleh, 18 May 1102)
k. Guy II de Montlhery, Comte de Rochefort (d. 1108)
l. Geoffrey III de Preuilly, seigneur de Preuilly et de
la Roche-Posay (also slain at Ramleh, 18 May 1102)
m. Walter de St. Valery, advocatus of St. Valery
n. Bernard de St. Valery, son of Walter
1a. Interim participants:
a. Simon de St. Liz, Earl of Huntingdon and
Northampton (d. ca.1112 en route)
2. Second Crusade
a. Thierry, Count of Alsace d. 1168
- Contender for most "Frequent Friar Miles" (4 visits/
crusades to Palestine, 1139 to 1164)
b. Leopold 'II', markgraf of Austria (d. 12 Oct 1102)
* c. Ida von Formbach, "the Margravine Ida", d. at Heraclea, 1101
~ Runciman is confident of her death - her presence provides
the basis for a number of legends, including supposed
'inclusion' subsequently in a Moslem harem........
d. Roger de Mowbray (d. 1188)
e. Geoffrey de Rancon, seigneur de Taillebourg
f. Amadeus III, Count of Savoy (d. Nicosia, 1148)
2a. Interim participants:
a. Hugh VIII de Lusignan, d. ca. 1173 (fought and captured
at Battle of Artah, 10 Aug 1164)
b. William III, marquis of Montferrat, d.1191 (went to Palestine
1185; captured at Hattin 4 July 1187 - later released)
~ Notable as father of Conrad of Montferrat, one-time King
of Jerusalem; and Boniface, leader of the 4th Crusade
c. Roger de Mowbray (see 2.d. above), returned to Palestine 1186 -
fought and captured at Hattin, 4 July 1187 - ransomed
by the Knights Templar)
d. Reginald de St. Valery, of Tetbury, co. Glocs., seneschal of
Normandy (fought at the siege of Caesarea, 1158; given
custody of the castle of Harenc by King Baldwin ([D p. 698,
citing Robert de Torigni])
3. Third Crusade
a. Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester (d. Durazzo, 1190)
b. Hugh III, Duke of Burgundy (d. at Tyre, 1192)
c. William de Ferrers, (3rd) Earl of Derby (d. Acre, 1190)
d. Ralph de Gael, former Earl of Norfolk and Suffolk
- at siege of Nicaea, 1096 - death place unknown....
e. Gerard de Furnival, of Munden Furnivall, co. Essex
f. Hugh V de Gournay, of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
g. Raoul d'Exoudun, comte d'Eu
h. Nigel de Mowbray (d. 1191 at Acre)
i. William de Mowbray, son of Nigel (with Richard at Speyer, 1194)
j. Robert de Quincy, of Long Buckby, co. Northants. d. bef 1198
- younger son of Saier de Quincy, father of Saier 'IV'
k. Osmund de Stuteville, of Cowesby, Kepwith, East Ness and
Newsham, co. Yorks. (d. Jaffa, before 1194)
l. Bertram de Verdun, of of Farnham Royal, co. Bucks.
- charged by Richard I with oversight at Acre, 1191
d. 24 Aug 1192 at Jaffa [Joppa], according to Paul Reed
5. Fifth Crusade (1219 - Damietta)
a. William d'Aubigny, Earl of Arundel (fought at siege of
Damietta, Nov 1219. Died en route home in Italy, near Rome)
b. John de Lacy, Constable of Chester and Earl of Lincoln (d. 1240)
c. Saier 'IV' de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (d. at Damietta 1219)
d. Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester (d. 1264)
- son of Saier, with his father at Damietta
7. Crusade of St. Louis (1249-1250)
a. Patrick de Dunbar, Earl of March (d. aft 14 Apr 1248 at
Marseilles, en route to Palestine)
b. Hugh X de Lusignan (d. ca. 1249, probably in Palestine)
8. Crusade of 1270-1272
a. Edmund, Earl of Lancaster (brother of the Lord Edward/K Edw I)
9. Other 'Crusades'
A. Spain
a. Raymond 'of Burgundy', later count of Castile (d. 1107)
- father of Alfonso VII 'Raimundez', K. of Leon and Castile
* John P. Ravilious
Todd A. Farmerie
> Below is a list of those individuals I show who (A) are ancestors
> of George W. Bush, and (B) were participants in one of the 'named'
> Crusades, or otherwise involved at one time or another in 'crusading'.
> 9. Other 'Crusades'
>
> A. Spain
>
> a. Raymond 'of Burgundy', later count of Castile (d. 1107)
> - father of Alfonso VII 'Raimundez', K. of Leon and Castile
b. Henry 'of Burgundy', later count of Portugal (d. 1112)
- father of Affonso I 'Enriquez', K. of Portugal
Nathaniel Taylor
> Below is a list of those individuals I show who (A) are ancestors
> of George W. Bush, and (B) were participants in one of the 'named'
> Crusades, or otherwise involved at one time or another in 'crusading'.
John,
Thanks! This is just the sort of list I was hoping to build. Here is a
man with a fine, useful database! Bush clearly has some dozens of
identifiable Crusader ancestors.
I cannot readily place all these people as Bush ancestors, but haven't
done any systematic compiling of the medieval lines behind Bush's
gateways (which I do not share). My one issue here is with the 'Spain'
section, yours and Todd's addition. I would not hold that all foreign
combatants or volunteers in a Spanish campaign against Muslims qualify
as crusaders. I would also require the theological threshold, that such
work be done in an explicitly sponsored campaign under the set of
privileges that evolved from 1095 onward essentially to define
crusading: remission of sins; salvation if dying in the effort; papal
protection of lands, dependents, and freezing of debts; etc. Papal
privileges equating Spanish campaigning with crusading in the East were
first extended in 1123, and the idea came to fruition with campaigns
between then and the second crusade with the 1147 campaigns against
Almeria, Lisbon, etc., which all attracted foreign volunteers. The
great victory over the Almohads at Las Navas de Tolosa (1212) also
featured with an army augmented by French volunteers under a special
appeal from Pope Innocent III. So I guess I wouldn't include the
Burgundian sons-in-law of Alfonso VI as crusaders, since their
involvement in Iberia really predates the evolution of the Crusading
concept.
That having been said: great list. Can you post details of descents
from each to Bush, or would this be too long? It would start to look
like Ancestral Roots, I think.
And finally, can you generate a similar list for my own gateway
ancestors? :)
Nat Taylor
The...@aol.com
Dear Nat, et al.,
A correction to the prior post:
Under '2nd Crusade', there are two erroneous entries:
" b. Leopold 'II', markgraf of Austria (d. 12 Oct 1102)
* c. Ida von Formbach, "the Margravine Ida", d. at Heraclea, 1101
~ Runciman is confident of her death - her presence provides
the basis for a number of legends, including supposed
'inclusion' subsequently in a Moslem harem........ "
In drafting this post, these two were pasted in error under
2nd Crusade as well as 1st Crusade. Obviously, it would have been a
little difficult for two individuals having died in 1101/02 to have
actively participated in another Crusade some 45 years later.....
Then again, we haven't gone into the use of portable reliquaries
by Crusaders during the period; hmmmmm.......
Dispensa mea.
John
Douglas Richardson
I very much enjoyed your post about the crusader ancestors of
President George Bush. It was a very interesting post. I have a
couple of additions and corrections for you.
First, under the second crusade, Line No. 4, you set forth a descent
from King Edward I of England down to President Bush's immigrant
ancestress, Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson. The descent as set forth is
correct. As you are probably aware, President Bush possesses another
descent from the same monarch through his immigrant ancestor, Richard
Palgrave. I assume for simplicity you left out the Palgrave line.
Second, I note that you have referred to King Henry III's younger son
as Edmund 'Crouchback,' Earl of Lancaster. The following is what the
historian, Michael Hicks, has to say about the so called nickname
"Crouchback:"
M.A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7–9 (biog. of
Edmund Crouchback: "The epithet ‘Crouchback'… is not given to him by
any contemporary chronicler… for all that we know of him points to his
having been both handsome and skilled in arms.").
For the origin of the false legend that Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, was
hunchbacked, see C. Given-Wilson, Chronicles of the Revolution
1399–1400 (1993): 195–196 (excerpts from John Hardyng's chronicle).
With these considerations in mind, I believe it is incorrect to refer
to Edmund as Edmund 'Crouchback.'
Third, I note that you have referred to various Earls of Arundel by
the surname, Fitzalan. The last use of the surname, Fitz Alan, by any
member of this family dates c.1312/3, when Edmund, Earl of Arundel,
brought a writ as "Edmund Fitz Alan" (see Year Books of Edward III 12
(Rolls Ser. 31b) (1905): 518–521; reference courtesy of P.M. Stewart).
Thereafter, all further references to this family employ the surname
Arundel to the complete exclusion of the surname Fitz Alan.
Specifically, Earl Edmund (died 1326), both of his brothers, two of
his sons and all four of his grandsons all employed the Arundel
surname. Edmund's sister Alice is likewise styled "de Arundel" in an
ancient Segrave family pedigree.
To verify the correctness of this fact, I recently contacted the
Public Record Office in London and asked them to examine various items
dating after 1313 which they had catalogued as Fitzalan. A copy of my
e-mail to them and their return response is given below. As you can
see, when they examined the originals, they found no reference
whatsoever to the surname, Fitzalan. As such, they have changed their
catalogue accordingly.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - -
Dear Mr Richardson,
Many thanks for your very comprehensive and detailed email.
As a result of your comments we have checked the items, where
possible, and
can confirm that there is no mention of the name Fitz Alan. The
relevant
catalogue descriptions have been amended accordingly.
Thank you for advising us of this error.
Yours sincerely
Peter Goodwin
Senior Archivist
e-Access Dept
The National Archives
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
Sent: 07 January 2004 16:55
To: PRO...@pro.gov.uk
Subject: Arundel versus Fitz Alan
Dear Sir ~
I recently encountered several items in the catalogue for members of
the
"Fitz Alan" family who were the Earls of Arundel and Surrey. My
research
indicates that the last use of the name Fitz Alan by any member of
this
family dates c.1312/3, Edmund, Earl of Arundel (died 1326) brought a
writ as
"Edmund Fitz Alan" (see Year Books of Edward III 12 (Rolls Ser. 31b)
(1905):
518-521). Thereafter, all further references to this family employ
the
surname Arundel to the complete exclusion of the surname Fitz Alan.
Specifically, Edmund (died 1326), both of his brothers, two of his
sons and
all four of his grandsons all employed the Arundel surname. Edmund's
sister
Alice is likewise styled "de Arundel" in an ancient Segrave family
pedigree.
VCH Surrey 1 (1902): 348, footnote 1 observes that Richard's son and
heir,
Edmund, is "commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the
family
was then de Arundel." N.H. Nicolas, a well known antiquarian, states:
"This
family presents a singular instance of adopting the name of their
title as
the surname of the family, for after the marriage of John Fitz-Alan,
Lord of
Clun, with Isabel, the sister and co-heir of Hugh D'Albini, Earl of
Arundel,
all the descendants called themslves Arundel instead of Fitz-Alan"
(see
Testamenta Vetusta 1 (1826): 105). For a contemporary instance of
Earl
Edmund (died 1326) being called de Arundel, see H.R. Luard, Annales
Monastici 4 (Rolls Series 36) (1869): 558-559. For a copy of Edmund's
seal
bearing the name, "Edmu[n]di de Arundel," please see J. Dallaway,
Hist. of
the Western Div. of Sussex 2 Pt. 1 (1832): 123-125. For an example of
Edmund's brother, John, using the Arundel surname, see Cal. Inqs.
Misc. 2
(1916): 334. For instances of Edmund's son, Edmund, using the Arundel
surname, see Papal Regs.: Petitions 1342-1419 1 (1896): 8, 128, 186,
194.
Consequently, it appears that it is inappropriate to use Fitz Alan for
any
member of this family after 1313.
The catalog items which I note which use the name, Fitz Alan, after
1313 are
as follows:
DL 10/299 Letters patent of proxy for Henry of Lancaster, earl of
Derby, and
Richard FitzAlan, earl of Arundel, to negotiate a treaty with Alfonso
IV,
king of
Portugal. Tower, 1344.
E 27/8 "Treaty of Calais Chest". Rectangular coffer of oak in a
boarded
construction, pinned with wooden dowels: with iron strap hinges,
damaged;
hasp,
lock, lock-plate missing; iron handle on lid. Slight evidence of
internal
division
into two compartments.Painted decoration: on front, on a red ground,
John de
Buckingham; Guy de Bryan; unidentified; unidentified [as E 27/9]; on
lid:
Richard
FitzAlan, earl of Arundel; the Dauphin; England, ancient; Old France;
the
Black
Prince; shield obliterated. [c 1360]
C 138/23/54 Arundel, Thomas Fitzalan, Earl of: Norf, Glos, Essex,
Herts,
Berks,
Salop and the marches of Wales, Sussex, Surrey, Wilts 4 Hen V
C 138/35/49 Arundel, Thomas Fitzalan, Earl of: Sussex 6 Hen V
C 138/53/108 Arundel, Thomas Fitzalan, Earl of: Sussex 8 Hen V
Inasmuch as the family stopped using the surname, Fitz Alan, after
1313, I
suspect all of the above items should be catalogued only as "de
Arundel" for
items before 1400, and as "Arundel" (without the "de") for items
after
1400, with no reference to Fitz Alan. At your earliest convenience,
can you
check on these items and verify that that the name Fitz Alan is not
used in
connection with them? Thank you for your help and assistance.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
Terry Mair
coat with a large cross on the back, I would assume similar to those worn on
cursade, not that he was a crusader.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: Crusader ancestors (long)
Snip
>
> Second, I note that you have referred to King Henry III's younger son
> as Edmund 'Crouchback,' Earl of Lancaster. The following is what the
> historian, Michael Hicks, has to say about the so called nickname
> "Crouchback:"
>
> M.A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7-9 (biog. of
> Edmund Crouchback: "The epithet 'Crouchback'. is not given to him by
> any contemporary chronicler. for all that we know of him points to his
> having been both handsome and skilled in arms.").
>
> For the origin of the false legend that Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, was
> hunchbacked, see C. Given-Wilson, Chronicles of the Revolution
> 1399-1400 (1993): 195-196 (excerpts from John Hardyng's chronicle).
>
> With these considerations in mind, I believe it is incorrect to refer
> to Edmund as Edmund 'Crouchback.'
>
Snip
>
>
>
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Third, I note that you have referred to various Earls of Arundel by
> the surname, Fitzalan. The last use of the surname, Fitz Alan, by any
> member of this family dates c.1312/3, when Edmund, Earl of Arundel,
> brought a writ as "Edmund Fitz Alan" (see Year Books of Edward III 12
> (Rolls Ser. 31b) (1905): 518?521; reference courtesy of P.M. Stewart).
<chomp>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: 07 January 2004 16:55
> To: PRO...@pro.gov.uk
> Subject: Arundel versus Fitz Alan
>
>
> Dear Sir ~
>
> I recently encountered several items in the catalogue for members of
> the "Fitz Alan" family who were the Earls of Arundel and Surrey. My
> research indicates that the last use of the name Fitz Alan by any
> member of this family dates c.1312/3, Edmund, Earl of Arundel (died
> 1326) brought a writ as "Edmund Fitz Alan" (see Year Books of Edward
> III 12 (Rolls Ser. 31b) (1905): 518-521).
At what point exactly did P.M. Stewart's research, as in the post of
20 January, rematerialise out of "my" research in the quoted words of
Douglas Richardson to the PRO on 7 January?
Is it now acceptable "collegial" practice to claim other people's
research as your own in private correspondence, and then carelessly
make this fib public?
Peter Stewart
Leo van de Pas
See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Crusader ancestors (long)
Dear John
ES III/3 Tafel 564 shows Hugh to have been captured at Ramleh, he must have
been released as he died in France 1106/110.
Best wishes
Leo
Brad Verity
I have a small correction.
Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:
> Eleanor of Castile = Edward I, K. of England
> Joan 'of Acre' = Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester and Hereford
> Eleanor de Clare = Hugh le Despencer, 1st Baron Despencer
> Isabel Despencer = Richard FitzAlan, 9th Earl of Arundel
> Isabel FitzAlan = John le Strange, 4th Baron Strange of Blackmere
This line is incorrect. Isabel Despenser, Countess of Arundel, had
only one child - a son Edmund - by the Earl of Arundel. Rather, Lord
Strange of Blackmere's wife was named Mary, not Isabel, and was the
sister, not the daughter, of the Earl of Arundel.
> Ankeret le Strange = Richard Talbot, 4th Baron Talbot
> Mary Talbot = Sir Thomas Greene
However, you can trace Mary Talbot to Eleanor of Castile through the
Talbots instead of the Stranges:
Eleanor of Castile = Edward I
Elizabeth = Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford
Eleanor de Bohun = James Butler, Earl of Ormonde
Petronel Butler = Gilbert Talbot, 3rd Baron Talbot
Richard Talbot, 4th Baron Talbot = Ankaret le Strange
Mary Talbot = Sir Thomas Greene
Cheers, ------Brad
The...@aol.com
Dear Leo,
Thanks for that citation from ES.
My source for this was Runciman's A History of the
Crusades. Of the Battle of Ramleh (2nd day, 18 May 1102),
Runciman wrote,
" Early next morning the Egyptians stormed over
the walls of Ramleh, and piled faggots round the
tower in which the knights had taken refuge. Rather
than perish in the flames, the Frankish chivalry
charged out at the enemy, with the Constable Conrad
at their head. But there was no escape. They were
all hewn down on the spot or captured. Conrad's
bravery so impressed the Egyptians that they
spared his life. He and more than a hundred of
his companions were sent in captivity into Egypt.
Of the other leaders Stephen of Burgundy, Hugh of
Lusignan and Geoffrey of Vendome were killed in
the battle, and with them died Stephen of Blois,
who thus by his glorious death redeemed his
reputation. The Countess Adela could sleep
content. "
Now, I love Runciman's writing - I don't believe you'll
find the tales of the Crusades dealt with so well (and in an
even-handed manner at that). 100% accuracy, well, that's
another matter.
Runciman does provide citations for the above paragraph
from Fulcher of Chartres, Ekkehard of Aura, Albert of Aix,
Bartolf of Nangis, William of Tyre and ibn al-Athir. If
Hugh de Lusignan survived the battle to return to France,
perhaps the error lies in one of these sources. I wonder,
though, if the source used by ES could be in error?
I'll check Fulcher of Chartres a little later. If you
find any corroboration (for either d. in 1102, or 1106/7)
please advise.
Thanks for the checkup, Leo.
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
Leo van de Pas
asked a few.
Here a few more.
In the First Crusade mentioned are
Etienne 'Tete-hardi'according to ES Volume II Tafel 59 he was murdered on 27
May 1102 at Ascalon, not slain at Ramleh 18 May 1102 (John has already given
the source for this one)
Geoffrey III de Preuilly slain at Ramleh 18 May 1102
ES III/4 Tafel 724 has him slain 27 May 1103 at Rama (is that the same as
Ramleh ?)
2a. Interim participants
William III marquis of Montferrat, I have him as Guillaume/William V íl
Vecchio, also from ES II Tafel 200.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <The...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Crusader ancestors (long)
Nathaniel Taylor
Thank you for your good post.
> First, under the second crusade, Line No. 4, you set forth a descent
> from King Edward I of England down to President Bush's immigrant
> ancestress, Anne (Marbury) Hutchinson. The descent as set forth is
> correct. As you are probably aware, President Bush possesses another
> descent from the same monarch through his immigrant ancestor, Richard
> Palgrave. I assume for simplicity you left out the Palgrave line.
I chose to sketch the line to Marbury because it is through Joan 'of
Acre', the circumstances of whose birth are relevant to the 'crusading
ancestor' theme. I also wanted to include lines to three different
17th-century descendants, to increase the ease of grafting other lines
on later.
> Second, I note that you have referred to King Henry III's younger son
> as Edmund 'Crouchback,' Earl of Lancaster. The following is what the
> historian, Michael Hicks, has to say about the so called nickname
> "Crouchback:"
>
> M.A. Hicks, Who's Who in Late Medieval England (1991): 7–9 (biog. of
> Edmund Crouchback: "The epithet ‘Crouchback'… is not given to him by
> any contemporary chronicler… for all that we know of him points to his
> having been both handsome and skilled in arms.").
>
> For the origin of the false legend that Edmund, Earl of Lancaster, was
> hunchbacked, see C. Given-Wilson, Chronicles of the Revolution
> 1399–1400 (1993): 195–196 (excerpts from John Hardyng's chronicle).
>
> With these considerations in mind, I believe it is incorrect to refer
> to Edmund as Edmund 'Crouchback.'
In theory I applaud the idea of discontinuing the use of unjust as well
as non-contemporary epithets, though concision and regnition will always
argue for continuing the familiar. But who knows: with a different
tone, you might even win more adherents to this general idea.
> I note that you have referred to various Earls of Arundel by
> the surname, Fitzalan. The last use of the surname, Fitz Alan...
<chawhomp>
You've raised this point before. Feel free to revisit it here when the
PRO has changed all its offending and incorrect references. While
you're waiting, you could search the archives of this newsgroup, and
post a correction to each and every post (since the group's inception in
1995) which (mis)uses the surname 'Fitzalan'.
Nat Taylor