Byzantine succession
Suzanne
Can anybody tell me if there are any Byzantine families today? Several
medieval families - Lusignans, Ivrea, Valois - claimed the crown of
Constantinople around 1453. I am curious to know whether there are any
such claimants today.
Thanks, Suzanne
George Tsambourakis
> Can anybody tell me if there are any Byzantine families today? Several
> medieval families - Lusignans, Ivrea, Valois - claimed the crown of
> Constantinople around 1453.
There is a contradiction here.
On the one hand you ask if East Roman Empire families still exist today.
On the other hand you name Non East Roman Empire families that claimed the
crown.
There are many East Roman Empire families (Greek families) living in Greece
and around
the world today but non of them claims the crown.
The ones that claim the crown of Konstantinople are all "foreigners".
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Suzanne" <ghirl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:567d38e8.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Speaking about Byzantine families...
Pierre Aronax
"Suzanne" <ghirl...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
567d38e8.03020...@posting.google.com...
> Speaking about Byzantine families...
>
> Can anybody tell me if there are any Byzantine families today?
No family can claim a male line ascendancy to a Byzantine emperor. The
family of Kantakouzčnos still exists today, but its relationship with the
Kantakouzenoi of the Middle Ages is unsure and in any case they don't
descend from the imperial Kantakouzenoi. The other families claiming a
male-line ascendancy to the Medieval Byzantine aristocracy are bogus.
> Several
> medieval families - Lusignans, Ivrea, Valois - claimed the crown of
> Constantinople around 1453.
As far as I know, the Lusignans never claimed the crown of Constantinople,
idem for the Ivrea. Charles VIII, king of France, a Valois, claimed this
crown on which he had bought some right, but he died without posterity and
his successors didn't renew his claim so explicitly, even if they late
sometimes others said it for them.
> I am curious to know whether there are any
> such claimants today.
Many, but all absolutely fake.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
So do the family Laskaris, Phokas, Doukas, Komninos, etc.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e441879$0$4834$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
The Williams Family
The true heirs to the Byzantine throne would be the descendants, if any, of Konstantinos Palaiologos (d. aft. 1508), a member of the papal guard and great-nephew of the last emperor. Assuming he left no surviving issue the throne would pass to the descendants of his sister Maria who married Prince Vasili of Vereya and whose issue is alleged to have become extinct upon the death of one Stanislas Gasztold in 1542. I have not yet attempted to trace these two lines and so cannot
say whether a living heir exists for either.
You may find the following article useful:
Morris L. Bierbrier, "Modern Descendants of Byzantine Families", _The Genealogist's Magazine_, 20: 3 (September 1980), pp. 85-96.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Gordon Banks
heir to the Roman Emperor or the Pharaoh. Do the Copts still have a
pretender to the throne of Egypt? They are the remnants of the ancient
Egyptians, after all.
Isobel FitzRoy
I would love to hear more about potential Byzantine claimants too.
I've read about far fetched pseduo claims, but I want to know more
about legitimate claims. The Prussian or German heir would be the heir
of the Valois claim I believe, but I'm not sure how that would work
since Prince Wilhelm renounced his claims. If he would still be in
line then it would go to his oldest daughter.
Hugs & Kisses,
Isobel
George Tsambourakis
The word "Byzantium" was introduced by the French only a couple of Centuries
ago.
>The true heirs to the Byzantine throne would be the descendants, if any,
>of Konstantinos Palaiologos (d. aft. 1508), a member of the papal guard and
>great-nephew of the last emperor
There were many others claiming the throne before and after Konstantinos.
In my opinion there is no such a thing as "True heir".
The REAL name is East Roman Empire which is claimed by some who claim the
title of
"Holy Roman Emperor".
There are about 50 families with claims for example Prince Philip of
Edinburgh.
Most families are "Latin" like Aldobrandini, d'Aquino, Bragadino, Buffa,
Caracciolo,
Visconti, Orsini, Grimaldi, etc. Also the d'Aragon family makes claims.
To my knowledge, not one Greek family makes any claims, and I am sure there
are a few descendents around, but unlike other Europeans, they couldn't care
less
about the past.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"The Williams Family" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:3E445A1E...@cowboy.net...
The Williams Family
No harder than having a throne of France, or one of Russia!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
P.S. Being "heir to the Roman Emperor" is essentially the same as being heir to
the Byzantine Empire as they were, after all, one and the same.
Gordon Banks
that those governments might want some sort of symbolic monarch (in France's
case, very unlikely, but I'm not sure about Russia). But Greece already has
a monarch, so where would the Byzantine pretender rule? Turkey would not be
interested, I'm sure. There is no more Byzantine Empire to rule.
Igor Sklar
>
Dear Suzanne,
One Michel Paleologue was a French ambassador in Russia about century
ago. I don't know anything about his pedigree and his connection with
the imperial family of the same name.
Some of the Komnenoi and Kantakuzenoi, however, surfaced in the
neighbouring with Byzantium countries about century after the fall of
Constantinople:
1. A Georgian chronicler mentioned in 1558 that Prince Avel
Andronikashvili and his brother, the bishop of Rustavi, were murdered
together with King Alexander and his son. The Andronikashvili
(Russian: Andronikov) family is now very large and has many branches.
To remind the world about their Byzantine origin, the Andronikashvili
still use a coat of arms of Komnenoi.
It's rather well-known that the future Emperor Andronikos I, while
living in Georgian exile, had a liaison with his cousin Theodora
Komnene, the Queen Dowager of Jerusalem. After Andronikos' murder in
Constantinople (1185) their illegitimate children fled back to
Georgia. Queen Tamar conquered Trapezunt and gave it to Andronikos'
grandson Alexios, whose descendants ruled the city until 1461. Other
children of Andronikos remained in "the cities, fortresses and lands"
granted to their father by King Georgy III.
According to a family legend, the Andronikovs stem from Andronikos
Komnenos, the son of Alexios Komenos, who was the illegitimate son of
Emperor Andronikos and Queen Theodora. No representatives of the
family before 1558, however, are known to me. Perhaps more info on
them is to be found in K. Varzos, The Genealogy of Komnenoi, 2 vol.,
1984.
2. One Andronikos Kantakuzenos (+1595) was a counsellor of Ottoman
sultan. His son Thomas was sent by Murad II for negotiations to Moscow
on two occasions (in 1621 and 1627). Then Thomas and his brothers
moved to the Balkans. Among Andronikos' grandchildren, Dimitri was a
hospodar of Moldavia in 1673 and 1684, and Sherban ruled Walachia from
1679 to 1689. Several Princes Cantacuzene emigrated to Russia during
the following century. They descended on the maternal line from the
House of Basaraba and its most notorious representative, Prince Vlad
Dracul (+1446). Their line continues to the present day.
The following pedigree was presented to the Russian Department of
Heraldry by Prince Rodion Nikolaevich Cantacuzene (1812-80) to back
his claim for a princely title:
1) Emperor Ioannes VI of Byzantium (1292-15.03.1383);
2) Co-Emperor Matias of Byzantium (1325-83);
3) Despot Demetrios of Morea (1345-84);
4) Andronikos Kantakuzenos (executed by Turks 5 days after the fall of
Constantinople);
5) Zacharia Kantakuzenos;
6) Michael Kantakuzenos;
7) Teodor Kantakuzenos;
8) Manuel Kantakuzenos;
9) Isaak Kantakuzenos;
10) Matias Kantakuzenos;
11) Manuel Kantakuzenos;
12) Alexios Kantakuzenos;
13) Andronikos Kantakuzenos;
14) Demetrios Kantakuzenos;
15) Andronikos Kantakuzenos (+1595).
This genealogy is apocryphal, of course. It could be correct only if
each person from Demetrios (+1384) to Andronikos (+1595) had children
at the age of 17.
I'm inclined to think that the extant Kantakuzenoi descend from the
elder son of Despot Demetrios, Georgy (+ca 1470), who had four sons.
I'm not aware about their progeny, though. Hopefully, someone is.
Possibly this information will prove useful to you.
Best, Igor
jlk7e
One possible claim would pass through the Palaeologus Marquesses of
Montferrat to the Gonzagas, thence via Emperor Ferdinand III's second
wife to the House of Lorraine, which would make Prince Guillaume Franz
Josef of Windisch-Graetz, the great-great grandson of Emperor Franz
Josef, the heir...
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: dOW0a.33$574....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> .> The family of Kantakouzčnos still exists today,
> So do the family Laskaris, Phokas, Doukas, Komninos, etc.
No: there are today families with these names. But hey have no proved or
even probable relationship with the homonymous Byzantine families.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
5a635d65.03020...@posting.google.com...
> ghirl...@hotmail.com (Suzanne) wrote in message
news:<567d38e8.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > Can anybody tell me if there are any Byzantine families today?
> >
> > Thanks, Suzanne
>
>
> Dear Suzanne,
>
> One Michel Paleologue was a French ambassador in Russia about century
> ago.
It was Maurice Paléologue and not Michel.
> I don't know anything about his pedigree and his connection with
> the imperial family of the same name.
No conection at all: he was the son of Alexander Paléologue (1824-1866),
illegitimate son of the widow of a Ghika (brother of the prince of
Moldo-Valachia of that name) and of an orthodox priest: he has been adopted
by a great uncle on the condition to adopt the family name of Paléologue,
which was the Christian name (and not surname) of his ancestor in the 18th
century.
The name Komnčnos, surfacing a century after the fall, is not a proof at all
of a parentage with the imperial Komnčnoi. The Kantakouzčnoi are probably
more genuine, but their parentage with the imperial Komnčnoi, whose
genealogy is relatively well known, bust have been rather distant and as far
as we know they are not male-line descendants of Emperor John VI.
> The following pedigree was presented to the Russian Department of
> Heraldry by Prince Rodion Nikolaevich Cantacuzene (1812-80) to back
> his claim for a princely title:
> 1) Emperor Ioannes VI of Byzantium (1292-15.03.1383);
> 2) Co-Emperor Matias of Byzantium (1325-83);
> 3) Despot Demetrios of Morea (1345-84);
He died rather in 1391.
> 4) Andronikos Kantakuzenos (executed by Turks 5 days after the fall of
> Constantinople);
So at the age of 90 or more since his supposed mother, the wife of Matthaios
Kantakouzenos, must be born before 1328 and had already two sons and two
daughters in 1356. The only sons of Matthaios known to us (and to his father
the Emperor John VI) were Iôannčs and Dčmčtrios. Actually, the megas
domestikos Andronikos Palaiologos Kantakouzčnos, killed during the siege (29
May 1453) or more probably executed three days or five days later with other
great aristocrats, was a son of Théodôros Palaiologos Kantakouzčnos and so a
more distant descendant of John VI (probably a great grandson). This error
is enough to prove that this genealogy is bogus. Andronikos had three sons,
but they were executed with him.
> 5) Zacharia Kantakuzenos;
> 6) Michael Kantakuzenos;
> 7) Teodor Kantakuzenos;
> 8) Manuel Kantakuzenos;
> 9) Isaak Kantakuzenos;
> 10) Matias Kantakuzenos;
> 11) Manuel Kantakuzenos;
> 12) Alexios Kantakuzenos;
> 13) Andronikos Kantakuzenos;
> 14) Demetrios Kantakuzenos;
> 15) Andronikos Kantakuzenos (+1595).
> This genealogy is apocryphal, of course. It could be correct only if
> each person from Demetrios (+1384) to Andronikos (+1595) had children
> at the age of 17.
>
> I'm inclined to think that the extant Kantakuzenoi descend from the
> elder son of Despot Demetrios, Georgy (+ca 1470), who had four sons.
> I'm not aware about their progeny, though. Hopefully, someone is.
But there were other Kantakouzenoi in Byzantium, not descending from John VI
but related to him more distantly: the modern Kantakouzčnoi are more
probably descending from them than from the great Kantakouzenoi.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
They had three nieces, however. The elder, Helene (1428-58), was
married in 1441 to John III, King of Cyprus. So Lusignans had the best
claim to be heirs of Byzantine emperors. Since Helene and John had
only one daughter, who was married to Louis of Savoy, this claim seems
to belong to the Italian royal family.
Two other nieces, Helene and Zoe, were married to Serbian duke Lazar
Brankovic and Ivan III of Moscow, respectively. I have no idea who
might be an heir of the Serbian claim, but the Muscovite claim passed
to Jagiellons with the marriage of Zoe's daughter Helene to Grand
Prince Alexander of Lithuania.
Sincerely, Andrey
Pierre Aronax
"Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
5534a4c5.0302...@posting.google.com...
> As far as I remember, the last Byzantine emperors had no children.
John VIII and Constantine XI had no children but their brothers had.
> They had three nieces, however.
Four who lived until adulthood, but also two nephews, who would have been
preferred to their sisters and cousins
> The elder, Helene (1428-58), was
> married in 1441 to John III, King of Cyprus. So Lusignans had the best
> claim to be heirs of Byzantine emperors.
This line ended with her daughter Charlotte of Lusignan, (deposed) queen of
Cyprus, in 1487. At that time, Helenè's cousin, Andréas Palaiologos, was
unanimously recognized as the heir of Byzantium in the West, so there is no
question of a claim from the Lusignan.
> Since Helene and John had
> only one daughter, who was married to Louis of Savoy, this claim seems
> to belong to the Italian royal family.
Except Charlotte and Louis had no surviving posterity.
>
> Two other nieces, Helene and Zoe, were married to Serbian duke
Despot, not duke.
> Lazar
> Brankovic and Ivan III of Moscow, respectively. I have no idea who
> might be an heir of the Serbian claim,
He would be to find in the House of the despots of Epiros, the Tocco,
extinct in the 19th century. IIRC, they used a very complex coat of arms
including the imperial eagle, so it can be considered as a claim.
> but the Muscovite claim passed
> to Jagiellons with the marriage of Zoe's daughter Helene to Grand
> Prince Alexander of Lithuania.
No surviving posterity of that marriage.
Pierre
Steven C. Perkins
What work has been done in Turkish documents on these families?
I should think there are materials extant in the Turkish archives that
could show the activities of the Eastern Roman families in the century
after the fall of Constantinople. Is there anyone who is working in
those documents for genealogy or prosopography?
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
Pierre Aronax
""Steven C. Perkins"" <sper...@interaccess.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 3E44CE25.9921.883A11B@localhost...
Yes, some works have been done in that sense, but the Turkish documents for
the time following immediately the fall of Constantinople are above all of a
fiscal nature, not exactly easy to use for genealogical research. Another
part of the "Turkish" documentation is simply in Greek, which doesn't cessed
to be used by the Christian subjects of the Ottoman sultans.
All in all nevertheless, the genealogy of the powerful Greek family under
Turkish rule is rather problematic for this period, but for the most part
this families seems to have been relatively "new": perhaps they had already
some limited social importance in the Byzantine period, but they were not
part of the circle of the imperial aristocracy.
On the other hand, some scions of aristocratic Byzantine family converted to
Islam: the Palaiologoi for example had a Muslim posterity. But this line are
impossible to follow after their conversion.
Pierre
Jack Straw
> domestikos Andronikos Palaiologos Kantakouzènos, killed during the siege (29
> May 1453) or more probably executed three days or five days later with other
> more distant descendant of John VI (probably a great grandson).
Why a great grandson?
Pierre Aronax
"Jack Straw" <thuri...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
6bb9224d.0302...@posting.google.com...
Actualy, it is Théodôros who is probably a great grandson of John VI (and so
Andronikos must be his great great grandson): Théodôros is certainly one of
the descendants of John VI, since he was closely related to the imperial
family, but he can not be his grandson, since John VI's grandsons are known
by his own writtings, hence he must be his great grandson.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
> At that time, Helenè's cousin, Andréas Palaiologos, was
> unanimously recognized as the heir of Byzantium in the West, so there is no
> question of a claim from the Lusignan.
>
> preferred to their sisters and cousins
>
>
impossible to trace, while the posterity of his brother Andreas was
extinct by 1542. The exact line is as follows: Emperor Manuel II
(1350-1425) -> Thomas Palaiologus (1410-65) -> Andreas Palaiologus
(1453-1502) -> Maria Palaiologina (m. Prince Vasily Mikhailovich
"Udaloy") -> Pss Sophia of Lubech (m. Albert Gostautas, Chancellor of
Lithuania) -> Stantislaus Gostautas, Palatine of Trakai, *1507,
+18.12.1542 sp, buried in the Vilnius Cathedral; m. 18.05.1537 Pss
Barbara Radziwill (the future Queen of Poland).
With best wishes, Andrey
George Tsambourakis
However, a relationship is almost certain, especially with Phokas/Kalliergis
and Laskaris.
Doukas is from members of the family that settled in Peloponese after the
fall in 1453.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e44da17$0$28327$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net...
Pierre Aronax
> That's because nobody from these families is interested to prove anything.
No that's because there is no proof at all.
> However, a relationship is almost certain, especially with
Phokas/Kalliergis
> and Laskaris.
And your arguments are?
> Doukas is from members of the family that settled in Peloponese after the
> fall in 1453.
Legend without any basis. Which family anyway? The Doukai of the 15th
century were not patrilinearily related to the imperial Doukai.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
> century were not patrilinearily related to the imperial Doukai.
As I said, we Greeks are not interested in "titles". The families exist,
that's all it matters.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e4628d5$0$23977$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
>
> "George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
> news: U4i1a.3$Qd5....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> > That's because nobody from these families is interested to prove
anything.
>
> No that's because there is no proof at all.
>
> > However, a relationship is almost certain, especially with
> Phokas/Kalliergis
> > and Laskaris.
>
> And your arguments are?
>
> > Doukas is from members of the family that settled in Peloponese after
the
> > fall in 1453.
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
Pierre Aronax
> > Legend without any basis. Which family anyway? The Doukai of the 15th
> > century were not patrilinearily related to the imperial Doukai.
>
> As I said, we Greeks are not interested in "titles". The families exist,
> that's all it matters.
Historians are interest in genealogy and they have not find until now any
reliable relation between the families of the Byzantine aristocracy and the
modern families who assumed their names. The feelings of the Greeks about
titles have nothing to do with that. Nevertheless, the phanariots were
extremely preoccuped by titles, and be sure that if they have had any
definitive proof of their relations with the Emperors of Byzantium, they
would have produced it.
Pierre
Suzanne
Thanks to all who posted their answers.
Summing it up: there are no families today that may prove their Byzantine origin.
Regards, Suzanne
George Tsambourakis
origin.
WRONG:
The correct answer is:
Nobody knows if there are any families with legitimate claims. and I am
talking about Greek Orthodox families. AND
Nobody will ever know unless these families show some interest in their
history and heritage.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Suzanne" <ghirl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:567d38e8.03021...@posting.google.com...
> ghirl...@hotmail.com (Suzanne) wrote in message
news:<567d38e8.03020...@posting.google.com>...
> > Speaking about Byzantine families...
> >
> > Can anybody tell me if there are any Byzantine families today? Several
> > medieval families - Lusignans, Ivrea, Valois - claimed the crown of
> > Constantinople around 1453. I am curious to know whether there are any
> > such claimants today.
> >
> > Thanks, Suzanne
>
> Thanks to all who posted their answers.
>
>
> Regards, Suzanne
Leo van de Pas
no families today that may prove their Byzantine origin" is simplistic and
should be rephrased. I think I understand what is meant. but the literal
statement can also be taken in a different way. And that is what I have done
for this exercise.
Constantine Monomachus, Emperor of Byzantium from 1042 to 1055.
Descendants are
Let us start with gen-med :
Grant Menzies
John Steele Gordon
John Ravilious
USA Presidents and such
1st President George Washington
3rd President Thomas Jefferson
5th President James Monroe
6th President John Quincy Adams
26th President Theodore Roosevelt
32nd President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Vice President George Clinton
Presidential hopeful John Forbes Kerry
Gateway ancestors
Essex Beville 1639-1682
Elizabeth Bosvile 1617-
Edward Carleton 1610-
Capt. Francis Champernoun -1687
John Fenwick 1618-1683
Muriel Gurdon
Afra Harleston 1615-1699
Elizabeth Harleston -1720
John Harleston -1738
Anne Humphrey 1625-
John Irvine 1742-1808
Joseph Kirkbride 1662-1737
Mary Launce 1625-1710
Samuel Levis 1649-1734
Nathaniel Littleton 1605-1654
Andrew Monroe -1668
James Murray 1713-1781 to Canada
Philip Nelson 1634-1691
Thomas Nelson 1636-1712
Herbert Pelham 1600-1673
William Randolph 1650-1711
Major Richard Saltonstall 1610-1694
Major Nicholas Sewall 1655-1737
Maria Joanna Somerset 1670-1698
Rev.Hawte Wyatt 1596-1638
And this is then only one Emperor.
Hope it is of interest?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Igor Sklar
Your conclusion is not quite correct. Perhaps it's impossible to
investigate the origin of Caucasian or Balkanic families. But there
are Russian sources, too.
The Velvet Book (compiled about 1682 to incorporate ancient
genealogical records) states that in 1399 went to Moscow "Prince
Stephan Vasilievich Kompin from his Gothian patrimonies in Sudak,
Kafa, and Mankoup. From his son Grigory Khovra descend the families of
Khovrin and Golovin." Prince Kurbsky in his letter to Ivan the
Terrible also mentiones that Golovins were a Greek family of great
antiquity.
Surely Kompin is a distorted "Komnene", or Komnenos. All the books on
the Golovin family from the 18th century to the present day repeat
that Golovins stem from a junior branch of the Komnenoi. Otherwise it
would be hard to explain the exceptional position that
Khovrins-Golovins enjoyed for more than three centuries of their
habitation in Muscovy.
The line "Komnenoi to Pushkin" may be reconstructed this way:
1) Stefanos Komnenos, ruler of Southern Crimea, founded the New
Simonov Monastery in Moscow and died there;
2) Grigory Stepanovich "Khovra", grand treasurer of Vasily II, built
the Ascension Cathedral of the Simonov Monastery (Khovrin-Golovin
family sepulchre) and was buried there;
3) Vladimir Grigorievich Khovrin, grand treasurer of Ivan III, built
the Ascension Cathedral of the Moscow Kremlin, was buried in the
Simonov;
4) Ivan Vladimirovich Khovrin "Golova", directed the rebuilding of
Moscow Kremlin, married Pss Anna Danilovna Kholmskaya;
5) Pyotr Ivanovich Golovin (+1525), grand treasurer, married Pss Maria
Vasilievna Odoyevskaya;
6) Pyotr Petrovich Golovin, boyar, +executed in 1565 with his
brother-in-law Prince Alexander Borisovich Gorbaty-Shuisky;
7) Pyotr Petrovich Golovin (+1627), boyar and treasurer;
8) Pyotr Petrovich Golovin (+1634), treasurer;
9) Mikhail Petrovich Golovin (+1689), boyar;
10) Ivan Mikhailovich Golovin (1669-1738), admiral;
11) Yevdokia Ivanovna Golovina, married Alexander Petrovich Pushkin
and was stabbed to death during child-birth by her mad husband;
12) Lev Alexandrovich Pushkin (1723-90);
13) Sergey Lvovich Pushkin (1770-1848);
14) Alexander Sergeievich Pushkin (1799-1837), a poet.
Best regards, Igor
Pierre Aronax
"Suzanne" <ghirl...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
567d38e8.03021...@posting.google.com...
Right if you mean by family: descendants of a same ancestor in male line
(and that is obviously what you do).
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: zXT1a.437$rU5....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> > Summing it up: there are no families today that may prove their
Byzantine
> origin.
>
> WRONG:
No, she is quitely right. Otherwise, please give the name of one family who
can do that.
> The correct answer is:
> Nobody knows if there are any families with legitimate claims. and I am
> talking about Greek Orthodox families. AND
> Nobody will ever know unless these families show some interest in their
> history and heritage.
And if they do, what will happen? They will find new documents in their old
cupboards?
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
""Leo van de Pas"" <leov...@bigpond.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
029c01c2d1b0$46c72220$863afea9@old...
> I agree with George Tsambourakis,
If something like that ever happens, you may assume you are on a very very
bad way.
> this statement "Summing it up: there are
> no families today that may prove their Byzantine origin" is simplistic and
> should be rephrased. I think I understand what is meant. but the literal
> statement can also be taken in a different way. And that is what I have
done
> for this exercise.
>
> Constantine Monomachus, Emperor of Byzantium from 1042 to 1055.
>
> Descendants are
[Follows a list of people who obviously can not claim to be Monomachoi.]
Suzanne didn't say "nobody can claim a filiation from a Byzantine emperor"
but "no family today may prove a Byzantine origin". Assuming "family" means
"agnatic descendants" (and what else can it mean in that context?) and
"Byzantine origin" descendancy from the Byzantine aristocracy, that is
quietly right, with perhaps the exception of the modern Kantakouzčnoi (who
can nevertheless not claim a male line descendancy from a Byzantine
emperor).
Pierre
Leo van de Pas
I did say that I purposely took a different meaning, a meaning not intended
:-)
I thought it would be a different angle, as too many may think that those
Byzantine families did have no descendants at all. To pursue "who is the
right heir", personally, I regard as a waste of time. Because to what are
they heirs?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
George Tsambourakis
The statement: "there are no families today that may prove their Byzantine
origin".
Is just wrong.
Any open-minded person can see it.
Are you open minded???? or you think you know everything???
The words "NO FAMILIES TODAY" is very specific and by no means proven.
My professor used to say: "In life, one thing is certain, that nothing is
certain".
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e484472$0$8728$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net...
Arthur Murata
that would make almost everyone on this list who can trace
their family to medieval European nobility and royalty a
Byzantine descendant. Obviously that is not the initial
question as it would involve hundreds of thousands of
people (not all on this list, thanks be...). Bronwen
Edwards
__________________________________________________
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Pierre Aronax
> I am sorry but there is no logic in your argument.
>
> The statement: "there are no families today that may prove their
Byzantine
> origin".
> Is just wrong.
> Any open-minded person can see it.
> Are you open minded???? or you think you know everything???
>
> The words "NO FAMILIES TODAY" is very specific and by no means proven.
>
> My professor used to say: "In life, one thing is certain, that nothing is
> certain".
What a pity you didn't hear him more carefully!
Pierre
Leo van de Pas
implying this.
To chase the 'heir' is like chasing the Holy Grail. This is one of those
academic "what if" questions, by pursuing it what do you expect to achieve?
The kind of families concerned are for us not well enough recorded or known,
basically we do not know what we are dealing with. At least when dealing
with descendants via female connections, at least we know there is a link.
And by making my message I was hoping to make it clear that such links are
viable, I do think gen-med is there to help each other and make each other
aware of such, and other, possible links.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Murata" <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: USA descendants of Byzantine Emperor was Re: Byzantine
succession
Andrey Frizyuk
>
> The Velvet Book (compiled about 1682 to incorporate ancient
> genealogical records) states that in 1399 went to Moscow "Prince
> Stephan Vasilievich Kompin from his Gothian patrimonies in Sudak,
> Kafa, and Mankoup. From his son Grigory Khovra descend the families of
> Khovrin and Golovin."
> Surely Kompin is a distorted "Komnene", or Komnenos.
>
And what is "Khovra"? Is it Greek or Russian? And what does it mean?
The solution is quite simple: until the arrival of Turks Menkoup was
ruled by the Gavras (Russian pronunication: Havras) family. The
descent of Golovins from Komnenoi was invented by an ignorant
genealogist of the 17th century. He had no idea that the Gabrades were
hardly less ancient than the Komnenoi themselves.
The Gabrades was an old Armenian dynasty of Pontus that governed a
town of Trebizond until its full incorporation into Byzantium. St.
Theodore Gabras, duke of Chaldia and Trebizond, was murdered by Turks
in Erzerum (1098). His son Gregorios Gavras, also a governor of
Trebizond, unsuccessfully tried to separate his province from Empire.
Konstantinos, the heir of Gregorios, plotted against Ioannes II and
was exiled by him into the Crimea. The Gabrades founded a small
prinicipality there and named it Theodoro to honour their patron
saint.
The Gabrades had a long tradition of marrying into the Komnenoi
family. Gregorios Gabras during his Constantinople captivity married
Maria Komnene (they were separated by their relatives later). Michael
Gabras, a prominent general, was married to Eudoxia Komnene in 1152.
David Komnenos, the last Emperor of Trebizond, married in 1426 Maria
Gabraina, daughter of Prince Alexeios of Gothia and (apparently) niece
of Gregorios "Khavra". David's second wife was Helene Kantakuzene.
Gradually the principality of Theodoro (with its capital in Mankoup)
expanded. It achieved the peak of its power in the 15th century.
Ioannes Gavras, grandson of Prince Alexeios, married in Trebizond
Maria Asanina Palaiologina. Their son, Konstantinos Gavros, went with
Zoe Palaiologina to Moscow, where he took monastic vows and was
canonized a century after his death. His first cousin, Maria of Gothia
(+1477), was married in 1471 to Stephan the Great, hospodar of
Moldavia. Maria's shroud, preserved in the Putna Monastery (Romania),
is decorated with a coat of arms of the Polaiologi.
More info on the Gabrades-Hovrins family may be found here: 1) F.
Braun Die letzten Schicksale der Krimgoten (Berlin, 1890); 2) A. A.
Vassilief. The Goths in Crimea (Cambridge, 1936); 3) A. A. Bryer. A
Byzantine Family: the Gabrades. // Historical Journal, vol. 12, N2
(University of Birmingham, 1970); 3) S. P. Karpov. The Empire of
Trebizond and Its Ties with Western Europe (Moscow, 1981).
With best wishes, Andrey
Andrey Frizyuk
> 1) Stefanos Komnenos, ruler of Southern Crimea, founded the New
> Simonov Monastery in Moscow and died there;
> 2) Grigory Stepanovich "Khovra", grand treasurer of Vasily II, built
> the Ascension Cathedral of the Simonov Monastery (Khovrin-Golovin
> family sepulchre) and was buried there;
> 3) Vladimir Grigorievich Khovrin, grand treasurer of Ivan III, built
> the Ascension Cathedral of the Moscow Kremlin, was buried in the
> Simonov;
> 4) Ivan Vladimirovich Khovrin "Golova", directed the rebuilding of
> Moscow Kremlin, married Pss Anna Danilovna Kholmskaya;
> 5) Pyotr Ivanovich Golovin (+1525), grand treasurer, married Pss Maria
> Vasilievna Odoyevskaya;
> 6) Pyotr Petrovich Golovin, boyar, +executed in 1565 with his
OK, here is a Greek pedigree of Peter the Great: Stefanos Havras ->
Gregorios "Khavra" -> Vladimir Khovrin -> 1) Yevdokia (m. Pr Ivan
Patrikeyev, first cousin of Ivan III); 2) Ivan "Golova" (m. Pss
Kholmskaya, also a relation of Ivan III) -> Pyotr Golovin (+1525) ->
Ivan Golovin (+1562) -> Varvara (+18.06.1556; m. Nikita Romanovich
Zakharyin) -> Patriarch Filaret (1550-1633) -> Tsar Mikhail I -> Tsar
Alexis I -> Emperor Peter I ...
It appears that boyar Fyodor Alexeievich Golovin (1650-1706), who was
a prime-minister of Peter I, was also his distant cousin. Fyodor
Alexeievich, Field Marshal, General-Admiral, head of the Posolski
Prikaz, etc, was the first Russian to be made Count of the Holy Roman
Empire (1704). His wife was the sister of generalissimo Prince
Menshikov.
With best wishes, Andrey
Jack Straw
> Two other nieces, Helene and Zoe, were married to Serbian duke Lazar
> Brankovic and Ivan III of Moscow, respectively. I have no idea who
> might be an heir of the Serbian claim, but the Muscovite claim passed
> to Jagiellons with the marriage of Zoe's daughter Helene to Grand
> Prince Alexander of Lithuania.
>
Lazar Brankovic (1421-58) and Helene Palaiologina had three daughters:
1) Maria (1447-99) was married to the last King of Bosnia but had no
kids; 2) Irene was married to Giovanni Castriota, duca di San Pietro;
3) Milica was married in 1463 (Dubrovnik) to Leonardo Tocco, count of
Cephalonia and Leucadia. Any ideas about their posterity?
Suzanne
a Byzantine family continuously recorded for about a millenium. Are
there any other examples? What about Melissino?
Thanks, Suzanne
Pierre Aronax
"Jack Straw" <thuri...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
6bb9224d.03021...@posting.google.com...
They had a son, Carlo III Tocco (+ 1518), titular despot of Romania and
titular count of Cephalonia and duke of Leucadia, himself ancestor of the
dukes of Apice and princes of Montemileto in the Kingdom of Naples, extinct
in the male line in the 19th century. As I said previously, they made some
claim to the imperial succession, at least heraldicaly.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
> If you had read my introduction to my e-mail, you would have seen that I
was
> implying this.
> To chase the 'heir' is like chasing the Holy Grail. This is one of those
> academic "what if" questions, by pursuing it what do you expect to
achieve?
> The kind of families concerned are for us not well enough recorded or
known,
> basically we do not know what we are dealing with.
I disagree. Firstly: the question was not simply "who is the heir of
Byzantium" but "is there someone today who is a proven patrilinear
descendant of a Byzantine emperor or aristocrat". Secondly, the Byzantine
families are not more badly recorded than many other medieval lineage which
are discussed here on a regular basis.
> At least when dealing
> with descendants via female connections, at least we know there is a link.
> And by making my message I was hoping to make it clear that such links are
> viable, I do think gen-med is there to help each other and make each other
> aware of such, and other, possible links.
I thought it was to discuss medieval genealogy, even when there is no
connection at all with living people. For my part, I'm always amused to
learn the existence of one of this connection, but that is certainly not the
reason for what I deal with medieval genealogy or I read the list: knowing
somebody in the list is a descendant of Kônstantinos Monomachos through an
indefinite number of matrilinear connexion is of little interest for me,
except if it goes through a medieval line unknown to me.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
I do not speak Russian, but the Gabras or Gavras family were Greek Orthodox
and could
be found from 1200 in many parts of Greece although they were predominantly
in the
provinces north and south of Armenia NOT IN ARMENIA. That's my
understanding.
They were successful, but so where many other families.
In Greek, the name is: ?????? and I find it difficult to believe that in
Russian it is ??????..
I only have information about the Gabras families in Crete.(original
information not manipulated by "Historians"). There were at least 100
families living in Crete and their names could be
found in Venetian wills. For example:
1. Archives Filippo Malpes, Notary. Busta 143, fascs. 4 and 5.
Will: Marula, daughter of the late Nicolaus Gavras. 31 March 1363. Fasc. 5,
fol. 2r
2. Archives: Giorgio de Firmo, Notary. Busta 295, fasc, 7.
Will: Cali Pronicadhena, 30 January 1362. Fol. 5v
3. Archives: Marco Doncorci, Notary, Busta 295, fasc. 6.
Will: Cherana Casanena, 31 March 1375. Fol. 2v
4. Archives: Alberticus Maca, Notary. Busta 295, fasc 3
Will: Milliorina, Widow of Marinus Vidho. 11 Jul 1322. Fil. 4r
etc
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5534a4c5.03021...@posting.google.com...
> skla...@yandex.ru (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > The Velvet Book (compiled about 1682 to incorporate ancient
> > genealogical records) states that in 1399 went to Moscow "Prince
> > Stephan Vasilievich Kompin from his Gothian patrimonies in Sudak,
> > Kafa, and Mankoup. From his son Grigory Khovra descend the families of
> > Khovrin and Golovin."
>
> > Surely Kompin is a distorted "Komnene", or Komnenos.
> >
>
> And what is "Khovra"? Is it Greek or Russian? And what does it mean?
>
> The solution is quite simple: until the arrival of Turks Menkoup was
>
Pierre Aronax
"Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
5534a4c5.03021...@posting.google.com...
> skla...@yandex.ru (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > The Velvet Book (compiled about 1682 to incorporate ancient
> > genealogical records) states that in 1399 went to Moscow "Prince
> > Stephan Vasilievich Kompin from his Gothian patrimonies in Sudak,
> > Kafa, and Mankoup. From his son Grigory Khovra descend the families of
> > Khovrin and Golovin."
>
> > Surely Kompin is a distorted "Komnene", or Komnenos.
> >
>
> And what is "Khovra"? Is it Greek or Russian? And what does it mean?
>
> The solution is quite simple: until the arrival of Turks Menkoup was
> ruled by the Gavras (Russian pronunication: Havras) family. The
> descent of Golovins from Komnenoi was invented by an ignorant
> genealogist of the 17th century. He had no idea that the Gabrades were
> hardly less ancient than the Komnenoi themselves.
>
> The Gabrades was an old Armenian dynasty of Pontus that governed a
> town of Trebizond until its full incorporation into Byzantium.
In fact, the things are less simple than that. Nothing is precisely known of
the origin of Theodôros Gabras, except he was from Atra in Chaldia and from
a proeminent family. Nervertheless, the surname is known before him: a
Kônstantinos Gabras took part in the revolt of Bardas Sklèros in 976. A
Gabras, with the dignity of patrikios, ploted agains Basile II in 1018 at
Thessalonika and was blinded. A Leôn Gabras kwon by his sell was ploiarchos
in the 11th century. But no Gabras had a proeminent function before
Théodôros, and noone of the three mentionned here seems to have been
connected with the Pontos.
Théôdoros, attested in 1072 with the (rather low) function of topotèrètès of
Colonea and the dignity of hypatps, became a semi independant ruler of the
Trebizond area at the end of the 11th century by fighting against the Turks,
but was recognized by Alexis I Komnènos who created him duke of Trebizond.
His second wife was an Alanian princess.
> St.
> Theodore Gabras, duke of Chaldia and Trebizond, was murdered by Turks
> in Erzerum (1098). His son Gregorios Gavras, also a governor of
> Trebizond, unsuccessfully tried to separate his province from Empire.
It is a confusion made by some modern scholars between Grègorios Gabras and
Grègorios Taronitès, duke of Trebizond, but they are two different persons.
Nothing is known of Grègorios Gabras after the annulment of his marriage
with Maria Komnènè and no source says he was ever duke of Trebizond.
> Konstantinos, the heir of Gregorios,
Kônstantinos Gabras, duke of Trebizond, was the cousin of Grègorios, and a
nephew of Théodôros. He was an imperial general, governor of Philadelphia in
1112 where he was victorious against the Turks and took part in the
following years in the campaign of Alexis I against them. Beween 1116 and
1119, the emperor appointed him duke of Trebizond and at the later date he
was captured by the Turks. He ruled Trebizond against the imperial power
from 1126 to 1140, even coining his own coins as his uncle already had done.
> plotted against Ioannes II and
> was exiled by him into the Crimea.
Kônstantinos Gabras, duke of Trebizond, was the cousin of Grègorios, a
nephew of For what I know, no contemporary source says how Kônstantinos
Gabras was punished after being overpowered by an Emperor John II's general.
Some years later the Gabradès were still active in Trebizond when a Michaèl
Gabras was chosen by Emperor Manuel to take control of the fortress of
Amaséa (what he failled to do). Other Gabradès took the party of the Turks:
an Hasan ibn Gavras was counsellor of the Seljuk Sultan when he was murdered
in 1190.
> The Gabrades founded a small
> prinicipality there and named it Theodoro to honour their patron
> saint.
Here his the key point of this reconstruction. Two complex to discuss that
here but this is not proven and the connection between the Byzantine
Gabradès and the Moscovite Komra/Chovra is debatable. Note that the family
name Gavras is still attested at Trebizond but also in Byzantium in the
13th-15th centuries.
> The Gabrades had a long tradition of marrying into the Komnenoi
> family. Gregorios Gabras during his Constantinople captivity married
> Maria Komnene
He had previously been engaged to a daughter of the sebastokratôr Isaakios
Komnènos, but the mariage became impossible when his father married a
relative of Isaakios' wife.
> (they were separated by their relatives later). Michael
> Gabras, a prominent general, was married to Eudoxia Komnene in 1152.
> David Komnenos, the last Emperor of Trebizond, married in 1426 Maria
> Gabraina, daughter of Prince Alexeios of Gothia and (apparently) niece
> of Gregorios "Khavra". David's second wife was Helene Kantakuzene.
<...>
In fact, Helenè Kantakouzènè is only attested by a single 16th century
source and she probably never existed: see the archive of the group for a
long discussion on that subject between myself and Peter Stewart (who still
believes in her existence). Maria of Gothia is the only wife of Dabid Mégas
Komnènos attested by a contemporary source.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: 3E42a.173$l77....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
<...>
> I only have information about the Gabras families in Crete.(original
> information not manipulated by "Historians"). There were at least 100
> families living in Crete
I hope they were more than 100...
> and their names could be
> found in Venetian wills. For example:
>
> 1. Archives Filippo Malpes, Notary. Busta 143, fascs. 4 and 5.
> Will: Marula, daughter of the late Nicolaus Gavras. 31 March 1363. Fasc.
5,
> fol. 2r
This testament and the two following are published by S. McKee, Wills from
Late Medieval Venetian Crete, two volumes, Washington, 1998: it would be
more simple (and more honest) to give this reference, with the pages, rather
than only the archivical reference, since you didn't yourself directly
consult the archives but used the work done by someone else. It is obvious
from the text of the said testament (McKee, op. cit., I, p. 381, n° 288)
that Maroula is not from an high social origin, and so his husband is
certainly not a member of the aristocratic Byzantine family of the Gabradčs:
he is only a Greek of Crete who happens to have the same surname.
Pierre
JKent...@aol.com
leov...@bigpond.com writes:
> USA Presidents and such
> 1st President George Washington
> 3rd President Thomas Jefferson
> 5th President James Monroe
> 6th President John Quincy Adams
> 26th President Theodore Roosevelt
> 32nd President Franklin Delano Roosevelt
> Vice President George Clinton
> Presidential hopeful John Forbes Kerry
>
>
Leo, who is Vice President George Clinton? I am not familiar with this
person.
Jno
Pierre Aronax
<JKent...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1a5.fe8932...@aol.com...
<...>
> Leo, who is Vice President George Clinton? I am not familiar with this
> person.
Obviously, from his name, a natural son of President George Bush and
President William Clinton.
Pierre
Doug McDonald
JKent...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Leo, who is Vice President George Clinton? I am not familiar with this
> person.
>
>
www.google.com ... try
"vice presidents" US
this not brain surgery
Leo van de Pas
Hope this Helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: JKent...@aol.com
To: leov...@bigpond.com ; GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: USA descendants of Byzantine Emperor was Re: Byzantine succession
Jack Straw
Extinct in the male line, eh? Still they have some living descendants
who have the best claim to the imperial succession.
w. cary anderson
disgust as to the level of many of you have taken this once very interesting
and helpful site.
Good-bye!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Straw" <thuri...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
George Tsambourakis
> Late Medieval Venetian Crete, two volumes, Washington, 1998: it would be
> more simple (and more honest) to give this reference, with the pages,
rather
> than only the archivical reference, since you didn't yourself directly
> consult the archives but used the work done by someone else. It is obvious
> from the text of the said testament (McKee, op. cit., I, p. 381, n° 288)
>
> that Maroula is not from an high social origin, and so his husband is
> certainly not a member of the aristocratic Byzantine family of the
Gabradès:
This is the most irresponsible if not stupid argument I have ever heard.
If a person has money, is an aristocrat, if not is a poor bastard.
Not all the member of a family enjoy a high social status.
Some are born leaders and do, some are not.
I thought you were some sort of an academic but I guess I am wrong..
The reference I give are the REAL files not the book.
The book you mentioned publishes copies these files.
These files can be viewed in the archives of Venice, and Libraries of
Athens, Rethymnon/Crete
and other places.
And the book you mentioned (which I have, and which is excellent and worth
buying if you
are interested in the life and history of Cretans) offers only a small
selection of the tens of thousands
of unpublished wills.
There are many other books with Wills.
See also: "The Documents of Angelo de Cartura and Domino Fontanella:
Venetian Notaries in Fourteenth Century Crete" by Alan M. Stahl. (Also text
in Latin).
There are numerous books with "Translations" of wills in Greek.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e4906c9$0$7710$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
>
> "George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
> news: 3E42a.173$l77....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
>
> <...>
> > I only have information about the Gabras families in Crete.(original
> > information not manipulated by "Historians"). There were at least 100
> > families living in Crete
>
> I hope they were more than 100...
>
> > and their names could be
> > found in Venetian wills. For example:
> >
> > 1. Archives Filippo Malpes, Notary. Busta 143, fascs. 4 and 5.
> > Will: Marula, daughter of the late Nicolaus Gavras. 31 March 1363.
Fasc.
> 5,
> > fol. 2r
>
Pierre Aronax
> This is the most irresponsible if not stupid argument I have ever heard.
> If a person has money, is an aristocrat, if not is a poor bastard.
> Not all the member of a family enjoy a high social status.
> Some are born leaders and do, some are not.
In the Middle Ages (and the same is true today), if two peoples shares the
same surname, they are not automatically for that related by blood. If, on
an other hand, they clearly don't come from the same social background and
the same geographical area, they have little chance to be related at all. I
suspect (but it is always difficult to understand what you think, if
anything) that you are considering all people with the same surname as being
always one and single family. If you find some day a driver licence
belonging to a Mr John Windsor, you will probably send it to Buckingham
Palace assuming he can only be some close relative of the Queen of
Australia.
<...>
> The reference I give are the REAL files not the book.
But you took the references from the book...
> The book you mentioned publishes copies these files.
What exactly you are calling "files" is a mystery.
> These files can be viewed in the archives of Venice, and Libraries of
> Athens, Rethymnon/Crete
In the three places? Curious for manuscripts...
> and other places.
> And the book you mentioned (which I have, and which is excellent and worth
> buying if you
> are interested in the life and history of Cretans) offers only a small
> selection of the tens of thousands
> of unpublished wills.
You are a bit optimistic: for the period it concerns, the book publishes
almost all surviving wills of Venetian Crete.
> There are many other books with Wills.
> See also: "The Documents of Angelo de Cartura and Domino
Donato, not Domino !
> Fontanella:
> Venetian Notaries in Fourteenth Century Crete" by Alan M. Stahl. (Also
text
> in Latin).
You will not find any will in this book. All kind of notarial acts, except
wills.
>
> There are numerous books with "Translations" of wills in Greek.
Sense, if any?
Pierre
GRHa...@aol.com
JKent...@aol.com writes:
> Leo, who is Vice President George Clinton? I am not familiar with this
> person.
>
> Jno
>
> >> George Clinton, (1739-1812), American public official, influential in the
>> politics of the Revolutionary and early national periods. Clinton served
>> seven times as governor of New York (1777-1795 and 1800-1804) and was
>> twice elected <A HREF="http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/vp/vpusa.html">VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES</A> (1805-1812), serving
>> under presidents <A HREF="http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/bios/03pjeff.html">JEFFERSON</A> and <A HREF="http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/ea/bios/04pmadi.html">MADISON</A>.
>>
>>
>
El Cuervo
David Eades
> "Jack Straw" <thuri...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 6bb9224d.0302...@posting.google.com...
> > Actually, the megas
> > > domestikos Andronikos Palaiologos Kantakouzènos, killed during the siege
> (29
> > > May 1453) or more probably executed three days or five days later with
> other
> > > great aristocrats, was a son of Théodôros Palaiologos Kantakouzènos and
> so a
> > > more distant descendant of John VI (probably a great grandson).
> >
> > Why a great grandson?
>
> Actualy, it is Théodôros who is probably a great grandson of John VI (and so
> Andronikos must be his great great grandson): Théodôros is certainly one of
> the descendants of John VI, since he was closely related to the imperial
> family, but he can not be his grandson, since John VI's grandsons are known
> by his own writtings, hence he must be his great grandson.
>
> Pierre
Years ago I read in a copy of the Geographical Magazine (probably
dating to the Sixties, unfortunately I cannot lay my hands on it at
the moment) an article on the Greek settlers in the Corsican town of
Carghese, who came after the Turks had finally conquered the Morea,
and how some people claiming to be members of the Comnenos imperial
family of Trebizond settled there too.These Comnenos descendants
managed to get a patent of nobility from, as I recall, Louis XVI, but
died out soon afterwards.
I visited the town of Carghese last year, hoping to find some traces
of the descendants of the Comnenos. I didn't. All that recalls this
Greek connection is a rather beautiful Greek Orthodox church, which
stands above the sea in the natural amphitheatre in which the village
is built, opposite the Roman Catholic church.
Pierre Aronax
"David Eades" <david...@infonie.fr> a écrit dans le message de news:
c2eb2a22.03021...@posting.google.com...
<...>
> Years ago I read in a copy of the Geographical Magazine (probably
> dating to the Sixties, unfortunately I cannot lay my hands on it at
> the moment) an article on the Greek settlers in the Corsican town of
> Carghese, who came after the Turks had finally conquered the Morea,
> and how some people claiming to be members of the Comnenos imperial
> family of Trebizond settled there too.These Comnenos descendants
> managed to get a patent of nobility from, as I recall, Louis XVI, but
> died out soon afterwards.
Yes, their real name was Stefanopoli (italianiazation of Stephanopoulos) and
their clame absolutly bogus. A lady of this family, maried with a Mr Permon,
was the mother of Laure (1784-1838), wife of Andoche Junot, 1st Duke of
Abrantčs.
>
> I visited the town of Carghese last year, hoping to find some traces
> of the descendants of the Comnenos. I didn't.
There were still descendants of this family in the past (20th) century: a
painter whose christian name I don't remember, a woman writer dead during
the II World War... They used the name "Comnčne" or "Stephanopoli de
Comnčne". I don't know if the family is still represented.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
I checked and in Russia it is called Havras.
My second chock is Theodor which in Russian Pheodor
Anyway, A friend Historian from Russia send me the following information
which may be useful to someone if proven correct.
Message posted as received.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pheodor Gavras was a native of Haldiya. He was a famous warrior and
warlord. By the order of Alexios I Komninos he was appointed the ruler
of Trabzon. He liberated Trabzon from the Turk's and became "de facto"
independent ruler. Anna Komninos wrote(Alexiad's): "He intended it(Trabzon)
for
himself as a war booty". Grigoriy Gavras(the son of Pheodor) lived in
Konstantinopolis as a honorary prisoner. It was the argument of
Alexios Komninos for a separatism of Trabzon's ruler. In the one of
the battles Pheodor Gavras was captured by the Turks. In
Pheodopolis(Erzerum) he was executed tormentil(1060-1065?). The Saint
Pheodor of Trabson- he was named at soon by The Church.
The new ruler(duk?) of Trabson became Grigoriy the son of Pheodor
Gavras. He continued a struggle for independence of Trabson. And his
son(or cousin) Konstantinos was a quite independent ruler(~1120).
But in 1160's from Konstantinopolis was appointed a new ruler of
Trabson Nikifor Paleolog. He subjected the separate Trabson.
The rebellious family of Garvas was exiled in Crimea.
There they founded independent Pheodoro's principat.
1. Prince Vasily of Pheodoro
1.1 Pr Stephan Hovra of Pheodoro
1.1.1 Pr Grigoriy Hovra(you described this branch......................
1.1.2 Pr Alexios of Pheodoro(ruler of Pheodoro since 1391, +1434)
1.1.2.1 pr.Maria(in 1426 married the last emperor of Trabson)
1.1.2.2 pr.Alexios Younger(ruler of Pheodoro since 1434)
1.1.2.2.1 pr. Ioann(married ~ 1440 Mariya Paleolog in Trabson)
1.1.2.2.2 pr.Ahmet Ulubey(ruler of Pheodoro, +1472)
1.1.2.2.3 pr.Isaak(ruler of Pheodoro 1472-75, +1475)
1.1.2.2.1.1 pr. Alexei(he was a child when died)
1.1.2.2.1.2 pr. Konstantin Gavras(b.1442, in 1472 accompanied Sophia
Paleolog(as a her relative)in Moscow. Here he became a monk(Kassian)
of Ferapontov monastery and then he founded own monastery near Uchma's
river)
1.1.2.2.2.1 pr. Alexandr(the last ruler of Pheodoro till
dec.1475.+1476 captured by the Turks)
1.1.2.2.3.1 pr. Maria(+1477, wife of Gospodar of Moldova StefanIII)
1.1.2.2.3.2 pr. Tehur(ruler of Pheodoro 1475.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news: INC2a.94$bJ1....@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
> My apologies,
> I checked and in Russia it is called Havras.
> My second chock is Theodor which in Russian Pheodor
Chocking indeed.
>
> Anyway, A friend Historian from Russia send me the following information
> which may be useful to someone if proven correct.
> Message posted as received.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Pheodor Gavras was a native of Haldiya. He was a famous warrior and
> warlord. By the order of Alexios I Komninos he was appointed the ruler
> of Trabzon. He liberated Trabzon from the Turk's and became "de facto"
> independent ruler.
Except it is in the reverse order: Theodôros first take control of
Trebizond, before the accession of Alexios I to the throne, and then was
appointed duke. See my other post for more details.
> Anna Komninos wrote(Alexiad's): "He intended it(Trabzon)
> for
> himself as a war booty". Grigoriy Gavras(the son of Pheodor) lived in
> Konstantinopolis as a honorary prisoner. It was the argument of
> Alexios Komninos for a separatism of Trabzon's ruler. In the one of
> the battles Pheodor Gavras was captured by the Turks. In
> Pheodopolis(Erzerum) he was executed tormentil(1060-1065?).
Since Alexis I Komnènos became emperor in 1081, this datation is absurd.
Theodôros Gabras was martyrised on 2 October 1098.
> The Saint
> Pheodor of Trabson- he was named at soon by The Church.
> The new ruler(duk?) of Trabson became Grigoriy the son of Pheodor
> Gavras.
As far as we know, Grègorios Gabras was never duke of Trebizond: it is a
confusion of modern scholars with Grègorios Taronitès. Again, see my other
post on that subject.
> He continued a struggle for independence of Trabson.
Again, it was not him but Grègorios Taronitès.
> And his
> son(or cousin) Konstantinos
cousin: the relationship his known by Anna Komnènè, so no doubt at all on
that point.
> was a quite independent ruler(~1120).
He was appointed Duke of Trebizond between 1116 and 1119, but he began only
seven years later to act as an independant ruler. More chronological
informations in my other post.
> But in 1160's from Konstantinopolis was appointed a new ruler of
> Trabson Nikifor Paleolog.
Of course, in 1160, Kônstantinos Gabras, already active in 1108 as a
general, has little chance to have been still alive. In fact, as I already
said, he disappears from the documentation after 1140. For Nikèphoros
Palaiologos, all what is known is that he was (probably) duke of Trebizond
in 1179.
> He subjected the separate Trabson.
> <...>
Trebizond was no more "separate" since the 1140'.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
The last prince of Montemiletto (and titular prince of Achaia, the title
used by the Tocco to recall their Greek dominions) was Carlo (VI) di Tocco
Cantelmo Stuart (1827-1885), son of Francesco (II) (1790-1877). I don't know
if he had any sister, but he had an aunt, Maddalena, wife of Francesco-Maria
Capece-Galeota, duke of Regina. The actual ambassador of Italy to Kuwait is
from this family but I don't know if he is a descendant of this marriage.
Francesco (II)'s gandmother was Maria-Camilla Cibo (1728-1760), princess of
Massa and Carrara, wife of Rostaino-Gioacchino di Tocco Cantelmo Stuart
(1730-1796) and younger sister of Maria-Teresa Cibo, who brought the dukedom
of Massa and the principality of Carrara in the house of Este. The Tocco had
also married into almost all the great houses of the Two-Sicilies:
Pignatelli, Caraffa, Ventimiglia, Sanseverino, Orsini, Caracciolo...
Pierre
Francois R. Velde
> "Jack Straw" <thuri...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 6bb9224d.03021...@posting.google.com...
>> fri...@yahoo.com (Andrey Frizyuk) wrote in message
> news:<5534a4c5.0302...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> > Two other nieces, Helene and Zoe, were married to Serbian duke Lazar
>> > Brankovic and Ivan III of Moscow, respectively. I have no idea who
>> > might be an heir of the Serbian claim, but the Muscovite claim passed
>> > to Jagiellons with the marriage of Zoe's daughter Helene to Grand
>> > Prince Alexander of Lithuania.
>> >
>>
>> Lazar Brankovic (1421-58) and Helene Palaiologina had three daughters:
>> 1) Maria (1447-99) was married to the last King of Bosnia but had no
>> kids; 2) Irene was married to Giovanni Castriota, duca di San Pietro;
>> 3) Milica was married in 1463 (Dubrovnik) to Leonardo Tocco, count of
>> Cephalonia and Leucadia. Any ideas about their posterity?
> They had a son, Carlo III Tocco (+ 1518), titular despot of Romania and
> titular count of Cephalonia and duke of Leucadia, himself ancestor of the
> dukes of Apice and princes of Montemileto in the Kingdom of Naples, extinct
> in the male line in the 19th century. As I said previously, they made some
> claim to the imperial succession, at least heraldicaly.
According to Francesco Bonazzi, _Famiglie nobili e titolate del Napolitano_
(Naples 1902), they bore per fess, in chief tierced per pale 1) gules an eagle
displayed crowned or armed sable, 2) Jerusalem, 3) azure 6 fleurs-de-lys or
2,2, and 2, in chief a label of three pendants gules; in base or three bars
dancetty azure.
Thus they not only used a quarter for the Greek origins, but also Neapolitan
quarterings: display or loyalty, mark of alliance?
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Pierre Aronax
"Francois R. Velde" <ve...@heraldicaNOTSPAM.invalid> a écrit dans le message
de news: b2jhcq$eqi$1...@e250.ripco.com...
Yes, this is what I see as the imperial Byzantine arms. Nevertheless, the
eagle would have to be double-headed. I have seen somewhere a far more
complicated coat of arms nevertheless, with more quarters. Probably
Kleinwappen vs Großwappen.
Pierre
Francois R. Velde
<ve...@heraldicaNOTSPAM.invalid> os suum:
>According to Francesco Bonazzi, _Famiglie nobili e titolate del Napolitano_
>(Naples 1902), they bore per fess, in chief tierced per pale 1) gules an eagle
>displayed crowned or armed sable, 2) Jerusalem, 3) azure 6 fleurs-de-lys or
>2,2, and 2, in chief a label of three pendants gules; in base or three bars
>dancetty azure.
According to Crollalanza their crest was Pegasus, and their motto was "si qua
fata sinant" (if fate allows; Aen. 1:18).
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Igor Sklar
> Yes, this is what I see as the imperial Byzantine arms. Nevertheless, the
> eagle would have to be double-headed. I have seen somewhere a far more
> complicated coat of arms nevertheless, with more quarters. Probably
> Kleinwappen vs Großwappen.
The strongest heraldical claim to Byzantine heritage was made by Ivan
III, when he took the double-headed eagle of Roman Emperors as his
coat of arms. Moscow was the third Rome, you remember. For 500 years
the eagle of Palaiologi has been the national emblem - first of
Muscovy, then of Russian Empire, and now of Russian Federation.
Emperor Paul, aka Grand Master of the Order of St. John, brought up
his son Konstantin as the heir of Byzantium. He was dreaming that
someday Suvorov would throw open the gates of Istanbul, and Konstantin
would be crowned new Emperor at the Hagia Sofia. It was the Eastern
War that cut short these imperial dreams.
George Tsambourakis
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
news:5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com...
Pierre Aronax
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com...
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3e4d514a$0$25517$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
>
> > Yes, this is what I see as the imperial Byzantine arms. Nevertheless,
the
> > eagle would have to be double-headed. I have seen somewhere a far more
> > complicated coat of arms nevertheless, with more quarters. Probably
> > Kleinwappen vs Großwappen.
>
> The strongest heraldical claim to Byzantine heritage was made by Ivan
> III, when he took the double-headed eagle of Roman Emperors as his
> coat of arms. Moscow was the third Rome, you remember. For 500 years
> the eagle of Palaiologi has been the national emblem - first of
> Muscovy, then of Russian Empire, and now of Russian Federation.
Now the eagle is gold on red and so is indeed the Byzantine eagle, but the
imperial eagle was dark on gold, and so was also, and perhaps most, inspired
by the German imperial eagle.
>
> Emperor Paul, aka Grand Master of the Order of St. John, brought up
> his son Konstantin as the heir of Byzantium. He was dreaming that
> someday Suvorov would throw open the gates of Istanbul, and Konstantin
> would be crowned new Emperor at the Hagia Sofia. It was the Eastern
> War that cut short these imperial dreams.
Nevertheless, Paul had no genealogical claim to be heir of Byzantium.
Pierre
Igor Sklar
>
>
> Now the eagle is gold on red and so is indeed the Byzantine eagle, but the
> imperial eagle was dark on gold, and so was also, and perhaps most, inspired
> by the German imperial eagle.
>
The double-headed eagle came to Russia on the shoulder of Zoe
Palaiologina. I always thought that East Roman (as well as Holy Roman)
Emperors regarded themselves as rightful heirs to imperial Rome and so
used the emblem of Roman legions. But who was the first? If I'm not
greatly mistaken, the eagle was employed as symbol of military power
by Constantine the Great, or even by predecessors of Augustus.
>
> >
> > Emperor Paul, aka Grand Master of the Order of St. John, brought up
> > his son Konstantin as the heir of Byzantium. He was dreaming that
> > someday Suvorov would throw open the gates of Istanbul, and Konstantin
> > would be crowned new Emperor at the Hagia Sofia. It was the Eastern
> > War that cut short these imperial dreams.
>
> Nevertheless, Paul had no genealogical claim to be heir of Byzantium.
>
Michael VIII also had no genealogical claim to be heir of Komnenoi. It
seems like they didn't pay much attention to such things in Byzantium.
The historical continuity was considered much more important.
Pierre Aronax
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
5a635d65.03021...@posting.google.com...
news:<3e4f6adc$0$8772$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
> >
> >
> > Now the eagle is gold on red and so is indeed the Byzantine eagle, but
the
> > imperial eagle was dark on gold, and so was also, and perhaps most,
inspired
> > by the German imperial eagle.
> >
>
> The double-headed eagle came to Russia on the shoulder of Zoe
> Palaiologina.
Perhaps, but it seems the Russians chose a version of this eagle closer of
the one used by German Emperor (dark on gold) rather than the one used by
the Byzantine emperors (gold on red), and that was my point.
> I always thought that East Roman (as well as Holy Roman)
> Emperors regarded themselves as rightful heirs to imperial Rome and so
> used the emblem of Roman legions. But who was the first? If I'm not
> greatly mistaken, the eagle was employed as symbol of military power
> by Constantine the Great, or even by predecessors of Augustus.
Again, perhaps, but the double-headed eagle is not attested as an imperial
symbol in Byzantium before the 13th century at the best, and not in the West
before the 15th century with Emperor Sigismund (even if someone pointed here
to my attention an example of the 13th century, but in a miniature made in
England and not in a territory subject to the Western Emperor himself).
> > > Emperor Paul, aka Grand Master of the Order of St. John, brought up
> > > his son Konstantin as the heir of Byzantium. He was dreaming that
> > > someday Suvorov would throw open the gates of Istanbul, and Konstantin
> > > would be crowned new Emperor at the Hagia Sofia. It was the Eastern
> > > War that cut short these imperial dreams.
> >
> > Nevertheless, Paul had no genealogical claim to be heir of Byzantium.
> >
>
> Michael VIII also had no genealogical claim to be heir of Komnenoi.
What? Sorry, but he had a very strong one, stronger than his predecessor
had, and Michael didn't refrained to claim it! See:
Alexios III [Angélos] Komnènos, Emperor
|
Eirènè [Angélina] Komnènè, heiress of the Empire = Alexios Komnènos
Palaiologos, despotès
|
Théodôra Komnènè [Palaiologina] = Andronikos Palaiologos, megas domestikos
|
Michael VIII Doukas Angélos Komnènos Palaiologos, Emperor
Has he not died in 1203 (and the events of 1204 haven't happen of course),
Alexios Palaiologos would have been Alexios III successor. On the contrary,
the Laskaridès were only descendants of a younger daughter of Alexios III.
> It
> seems like they didn't pay much attention to such things in Byzantium.
> The historical continuity was considered much more important.
No, they did. The reverse is commonly believed, but it is a
misinterpretation based on the political mentality of earlier periods of
Byzantine history. Heredity was not the only factor to access to the power
in late Byzantium, but it was a very important and in fact an indispensable
factor. The facts are clear: all emperors from 1261 to 1453 belonged to a
same family except one (who did not try to depose the legitimate dynasty and
who anyway was himself closely related to this dynasty in female line): not
many European kingdoms can show such a dynastical continuity during the same
period (for example, certainly not England, and for what I know nobody says
for that that the English crown was not hereditary). And all emperors since
the 12th century (except perhaps Alexios V who usurped the throne briefly
and in apocalyptical circumstances) were descendants of Alexios I: it was
necessary to have Komnènos blood to hope to access to the crown. All the
anthroponomical practices of the Byzantine aristocracy proves that
genealogical prestige was of a vital political importance.
Anyway, it was of genealogical claims that we were speaking, not of
political claims in general.
Pierre
Don Aitken
>"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e4f6adc$0$8772$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
>>
>>
>> Now the eagle is gold on red and so is indeed the Byzantine eagle, but the
>> imperial eagle was dark on gold, and so was also, and perhaps most, inspired
>> by the German imperial eagle.
>>
>
>The double-headed eagle came to Russia on the shoulder of Zoe
>Palaiologina. I always thought that East Roman (as well as Holy Roman)
>Emperors regarded themselves as rightful heirs to imperial Rome and so
>used the emblem of Roman legions. But who was the first? If I'm not
>greatly mistaken, the eagle was employed as symbol of military power
>by Constantine the Great, or even by predecessors of Augustus.
>
The eagle was the symbol of the legion from very early in Roman
history, and in pre-christian times was worshipped as a minor god in
itself, in that a daily sacrifice was made to it. It long pre-dates
the Empire.
--
Don Aitken
Pierre Aronax
"Don Aitken" <don-a...@freeuk.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
d8tv4vc28pvjfepcj...@4ax.com...
That is not the question. The eagle is a very old symbol and the
double-headed eagle is also. The question is: when was the double-headed
eagle adopted as an imperial symbol by the Byzantines and the Westerners? I
said it was not attested as such before the 13th century. Do you know a more
ancient example?
Pierre