Taylor Lineage and Heraldry of Joseph Pringle
BobBecAlln
Ireland", by John Burke, Esq., Vol. IV, page 237 discusses Major Pringle Taylor
of Pennington House (179?-18??). Pennington House was said to be in
Southampton County, England (although the family estate of Pennington was said
to be in Hampshire County, England). He was knighted in 1827. The Taylor
Heraldry mentioned is:
Arms: ermine, a lion rampant guardant azure, on a chief embattled gules, a
fleur-de-lis or between two boars' heads coupled erect argent.
Crest: a dexter arm embowed in armour the hand in a gauntlet grasping a
javelin, all proper pendant from the rist by a ribbon, azure and resting on a
wreath of the colour, an escocheon gules thereon a boar's head coupled erect
argent.
Motto: Consequitur quodcunque petit.
Pringle Taylor's reported lineage seems to be clearly set forth from John
Taylor, of the Homerstall, in Shadochurst, county of Kent, living in the time
of Edward III. There is an allegation that this John Taylor descends from a
Hanger Taylefer who descendants held lands in the tenure of Ospringe, county
of Kent, 39 Henry III (1256). There is an allegation that Hanger Taylefer is a
descendant of Taillefer of Battle of Hastings fame.
I know that there are serious doubts that the linkage to Taillefer is true.
How about the alleged linkage to Hanger Taylefer? Has Hanger Taylefer been
proven to be an ancestor of John Taylor of Homerstall in Shadochurst, County of
Kent? It is generally accepted that the lineage from John Taylor of Homerstall
in Shadochurst, County of Kent, to Pringle Taylor is probably correct?
There are some similarities between the Coat of Arms and Crest of Pringle
Taylor and the Coat of Arms and Crest of the Headfort Taylors of Ireland.
Their mottoes are identical. Is there any proven linkage between the two
Taylor lines?
Is there any proof that the Taylor ancestors of Pringle Taylor had assumed or
were confirmed with, or were granted a similar version of the Coat of Arms,
Crest or Motto granted to Pringle Taylor?
Nathaniel Taylor
posted by bobbe...@aol.com (BobBecAlln) on this Taylor question.
The engraved ring which purports to bear the crest and motto of James
Taylor of Virginia is news to me. The Taylor arms, crest and motto were
granted to Major Pringle Taylor of Pennington in 1823 and was, as near as
I can figure, a NEW grant then (see Woodcock and Robinson, _Oxford Guide
to Heraldry_ [Oxford, 1988], p. 166). The connection of the New Jersey
Taylors (from whom Pringle descended) to the Kent Taylors is itself,
apparently, false. Cris Nash has posted on that previously. The Kent
family itself have different arms, as I recall, assigned in the
seventeenth-century visitations.
My assumption is that the heraldic ring, allegedly worn by James Taylor,
was made early this century. It is obviously worthless as a genealogical
clue, except to the pretensions of whoever had it made.
The poem quoted ("Drink to Taillefer all; his heirs shall have a whole
country fee, simple deeded and a motto: Consequitur Quod Cunque Petit")
is NOT medieval; the grant mentioned is hugely anachronistic in technical
details (even though the comma is misplaced in the middle of the phrase
'fee simple'); this type of tenure, and mottos, were both unknown in the
eleventh century.
The other Taillefer poem quoted ("Taillefer, qui moult bien chantoit...")
is, of course, authentic, but there is no known connection between the
Taillefer of Wace's _Rou_ and the other Hastings poems and any later
Taylor family. The Kent Visitations don't have this. The link was
invented in the late eighteenth century or early nineteenth, probably by
genealogist and antiquary Edward Hasted (at least I've seen it in his
manuscript compilations, before it made it into Burke's).
I'm off on vacation and won't post any more on this until next year.
Nat Taylor
D. Spencer Hines
which proves the historicity of "Taillefer" the Giant, Juggler, Brave
Knight who supposedly initiated the Battle of Hastings --- or whatever
strikes one's fancy.
"Taillefer" appears in none of the early accredited sources. He appears
for the first time in the _Carmen de Hastingae Proelio_ [Latin for: Song
of the Battle of Hastings], which appeared about 1100, but may have been
based on an earlier work by Guy, Bishop of Amiens.
Wace's _Roman de Rou_ is not a source contemporary with the 1066 Battle
of Hastings. It was probably written in the latter half of the 12th
Century, approximately 100 years after the Battle of Hastings, by a man
born in the Channel Islands. It is a romantic work full of accreted
myth and legend and is not to be treated as a serious historical source
for the Battle of Hastings. It is a sort of romantic verse history of
the dukes of Normandy. "Rou" is Rollo or Rolf the Viking, the alleged
founder of the line.
So, not only is "Taillefer" probably mythical. But so is the land
grant. Any conceivable connection of this non-historical character to
the Taylors, the Taliaferros or any other Family whose name begins with
"T" is pure thumb-sucking.
It is intriguing to wonder how many charlatan-fraud genealogists have
spun how many pedigrees for the credulous public --- based on a "proven
descent from the noble Giant and Juggler "Taillefer" who initiated the
famous Battle of Hastings in 1066."
I can just see those 19th Century matrons primly sitting in their mauve
parlours cooing over the embossed genealogies with the silk covers and
the red ribbons now --- while the gentlemen look on proudly, with their
own copy, in a neighbouring room, taking long, satisfied draws on their
cigars and leaning back in the comfortable leather chairs --- unaware
that they have been snookered by a charlatan.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
"Nathaniel Taylor" <nta...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:ntaylor-2712...@dunster-4360.student.harvard.edu...
Chris Dickinson
>I can just see those 19th Century matrons primly sitting in
their mauve
>parlours cooing over the embossed genealogies with the silk
covers and
>the red ribbons now --- while the gentlemen look on
proudly, with their
>own copy, in a neighbouring room, taking long, satisfied
draws on their
>cigars and leaning back in the comfortable leather
chairs --- unaware
>that they have been snookered by a charlatan.
Yes, but in many cases I guess such gentlemen knew full well
what they had just bought. And were quite happy to be
deceived ... after all, self-deceit is one of the luxuries
that money can buy. Only the poor have to face reality
head-on.
Chris
D. Spencer Hines
just as were the ladies.
And just as they are today.
Plus ca change...
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
"Chris Dickinson" <sej...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:848a8g$l52$1...@gxsn.com...
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 12/27/1999 10:28:07 AM, D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu
writes:
<< Taillefer" appears in none of the early accredited sources. He appears
for the first time in the _Carmen de Hastingae Proelio_ [Latin for: Song
of the Battle of Hastings], which appeared about 1100, but may have been
based on an earlier work by Guy, Bishop of Amiens. >>
This work is only forty years after the battle and is probably based on an
even earlier work, which only proves that there may indeed be some
authenticity to the story. No one can say for certain. There is nothing
wrong with the word "maybe."
Isabella of Angouleme, wife of John Lackland, was a Taillifer, which means
the Taillifer line is share by most members of this forum.
(1) 1 William I Taillefer --Count of Angouleme ®1
d. 6 Aug 0962
|(2) 1a Armand "Manzer" Taillefer --Count of Angouleme* ®2
| b. abt 0952, Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
| d. 2 Mar 0988, Saint-Cybard, Angouleme, Aquitaine, France, age: 36
|& Hildegarde (Raingarde) Taillefer ®3
||(3) 1 William II Taillefer --Count Angouleme ®4
|| b. abt 0978, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
|| d. 06 APR 1028 (POISONED BY DAUGHTER-IN-LAW), St. Amand de Bois, age: 50
||& Girberge of Anjou Taillefer ®5
|| d. aft 1 May 1041
|| m. bef 1000
|||(4) 1a Geoffrey Taillefer --Count of Angouleme* ®6
||| b. abt 1014, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
||| d. 1048, age: 34
|||& Petronilla d' Archaic/Taillefer ®7
||| d. 24 Sep 1029
||| m. BET 1020-1023
||||(5) 1 Foulques Taillefer --Count Angouleme, Lord Marcillac, Archiac,
Bouteville ®8
|||| b. 1030, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
|||| d. aft 1089, age: 59
||||& Condohe Vagena/Taillefer ®9
|||| d. aft 1087
|||||(6) 1 William III Taillefer --Count Angouleme ®10
||||| b. abt 1070, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
||||| d. 6 Apr 1118, age: 48
|||||& Corlieu de Vitapoi ®11
||||| b. 1066, of Benauges, France
||||||(7) 1a Wulgrin II Taillefer --Count Angouleme* ®12
|||||| b. 1089, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
|||||| d. 16 Nov 1140, Bouteville, France, age: 51
||||||& Ponce de Montgomerie/Taillefer ®13
|||||| b. abt 1109, of LaMarche, Normandy, France
|||||||(8) 1a William IV Taillefer --Count Angouleme* ®14
||||||| b. abt 1134, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
||||||| d. 7 Aug 1178, Messina, Sicily, Italy, age: 44
||||||| m. abt 1138
|||||||(8) 1b William IV Taillefer --Count Angouleme* ®14
||||||| b. abt 1134, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
||||||| d. 7 Aug 1178, Messina, Sicily, Italy, age: 44
|||||||& Marguerite of Turenne Taillefer ®15
||||||| b. abt 1120, France
||||||| d. aft 1201, age: 81
||||||| m. 1147
||||||(7) 1b Wulgrin II Taillefer --Count Angouleme* ®12
|||||| b. 1089, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
|||||| d. 16 Nov 1140, Bouteville, France, age: 51
||||(5) 2 Humberge d' Angouleme ®16
|||| d. 1071
|||| m. bef 1030
|||(4) 1b Geoffrey Taillefer --Count of Angouleme* ®6
||| b. abt 1014, of Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
||| d. 1048, age: 34
|(2) 1b Armand "Manzer" Taillefer --Count of Angouleme* ®2
| b. abt 0952, Angouleme, Aquitaine, France
| d. 2 Mar 0988, Saint-Cybard, Angouleme, Aquitaine, France, age: 36
| m. bef 13 May 0988
1. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
2. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
3. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
4. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
5. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
6. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X;
Europaische Stammtafeln by Isenburg, chart 817, Vol. 3..
7. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
8. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
9. Europaische Stammtafeln by Isenburg, chart 817, Vol. 3; Royal Ancestors of
Some American Families, by Michel L. Call, chart 11410.
10. Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 65.
11. Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 65.
12. Europaische Stammtafeln by Isenburg, chart 818, Vol. 3; Plantagenet
Ancestry by Turton, p. 81; Pedigrees from Mike Talbot of Metairie, LA>.
13. Descents from Antiquity, by The Augustan Society, Inc., chart X.
14. Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 65.
15. Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 65.
16. Europaische Stammtafeln by Isenburg, charts 773, 817, Vol. 3.
BobBecAlln
Taylor (d. 1698) ring was actually made earlier this century (20th century) and
his statement that the ring (with its Crest and Motto) "is obviously worthless
as a genealogical clue, except as to the pretensions of whoever had it made."
I will address the second comment first. Nathaniel is making a very bold
observation. He evidently has not studied my James Taylor genealogy in any
significant depth if he is unaware of the ring story. I therefore respectfully
suggest that Nathaniel does not have sufficient information to make a
worthwhile assumption on the century of its creation. I also repectfully
suggest that Nathaniel has insufficient facts on which to make his unequivocal
observation that the ring is of no genealogical value.
Here are some proven background facts on James Taylor who died in King & Queen
Co., VA in 1698. His first child by his first wife was born in December 1668,
placing his birth circa 1650 or before. His place of birth is unknown. He
first appeared in the records of New Kent Co., VA. as a land owner in 1675.
Between 1686 to 1695 he received 7 land patents in New Kent Co./King & Queen
Co., Virginia, totalling 11,593 acres for the transportation of people to
Virginia (50 acres per person) in St. Stephens Parish on the north side of the
Mattaponi River. One 209 acres land grant was jointly with John Neal. One
9,150 acres land grant was jointly with Joshua Story and Jonathan Fisher. In
1687 he also received two land patents in Old Rappahannock Co., VA totaling
1,254 acres for the transportation of people to VA (50 acres per person) on the
south side of the Rappahannock River. I could go into adjacent property owners
described in the land patents, many of which were important Virginians and some
of which I believe have established Coats of Arms.
This James Taylor, Sr., and his first wife had a son, James Taylor, Jr. who
married Martha Thompson. James Taylor, Jr. and Martha Thompson had a son,
Zachary Taylor, grandfather of President Zachary Taylor. James Taylor, Jr. and
Martha Thompson had a daughter, Frances Taylor who married Ambrose Madison and
they were the grandparents of James Madison, Jr., President of the United
States.
My point here is that it appears to me that my James Taylor, Sr., (d. 1698) was
a man of extremely high standing. Whether or not he was entitled to bear arms
or to use the Crest and Motto identical to the Headfort Crest and Motto. His
fraudlent use of said Crest and Motto would not have done much to elevate his
standing. In fact, to attempt to use a Crest, or a Motto to which he was not
entitled could have lowered his standing. In my opinion, James Taylor's
lifestyle was one consistent of one who was entitled to bear arms, a Crest
and/or a Motto.
James Taylor, Jr., and Martha Thompson also had another son, James Taylor, III.
As I understand it from Helen Marie Taylor (from a phone conversation I had
with her earlier in 1999 if I wrote it down right) James Taylor III had a son,
Erasmus Taylor, Erasmus Taylor had a son Jaquelin Plummer Taylor . Jaquelin
Plummer Taylor had a son Jaquelin Erasmus Taylor who married Helen Marie Taylor
(also a lineal descendant of James Taylor, Sr.). Helen Marie Taylor is in her
70s. She now lives on property called Meadowfarm, in Orange, Virginia which is
the exact property which was owned by James Taylor, Jr. and Martha Thompson.
According to Helen Marie Taylor, there was an organization called the "Taylor
Family Association" which was active between 1920-1930. At some point,
Emmerson Miller was the secretary of this organization.
That brings me to the book "From Log Cabins to the White House", Mary Taylor
Brewer (1985). On page 203 of this book, as part of the discussion of the
descendants of James Taylor (b. 1698), there is a picture of Jaquelin Plummer
Taylor as a middle aged man wearing the Taylor ring. There is also a close up
picture of the ring itself with the face of the ring containing the Taylor
Crest (naked dexter arm, embowed, couped at the shoulder, holding an arrow and
on the face of the ring surrounding the Crest are the words "CONSEQUITUR
QUODCUNQUE PETIT"). It says this is the Taylor Motto. It says "Photo and ring
courtesy of Emmerson Miller, who was Secretary of the Taylor Family Associaton.
The caption under the pictures says:
"The Taylor ring bearing the family Crest emblem belonged to James Taylor 1st
and was handed down from each generation. Jaquelin P. Taylor, last known
owner, shown here wearing the ring, bought it from Anna Robinson Watson, who
said:
'I was told that my grandfather did not wear jewelry and so his son wore the
ring, Col. Charles Taylor, until his death, then the youngest son, my uncle
Erasmus. I remember seeing the ring on his finger ever since I can remember
anything. After his death, there being no more sons, my grandmother handed the
ring to my mother. As I was very fond of the ring, my mother gave it to me. I
wore it until it seemed best for me to part with it.' "
I think I need some clarifying information about the line of descent from the
ring and or Jaquelin P. Taylor (I may have left out a generation or so). It
seems that Anna Robinson Watson was a cousin of Jaquelin P. Taylor (as she
refers to Erasmus Taylor as her uncle). Apparently her grandfather inherited
the ring, but did not wear jewelry (so he probable did not commission the
production of the ring). I think that this establishes the ring's probable
existence back to at least 1800.
Helen Marie Taylor recently allowed a relative, Leigh L. Van Blarcon to make a
copy of the ring. It was copied by a jeweler. I have communicated with Leigh
L. Van Blarcon and she said her jeweler said the the stone which was used for
the original ring was from Germany. I do not know what else a good jeweler
might be able to tell about the Helen Marie Taylor ring or its estimated time
of manufacture. Leigh L. Van Blarcon has sent me a photocopy of the face of
her ring which is identical to the ring pictured in the Brewer book.
The Headfort Taylors have a reported lineage back to Thomas Taylor of Ringmore
(1559-1629). His great grandson Sir Thomas Taylor, 1st Bart. was created a
Baronet of Ireland on 12 June 1704. His fourth son was James, born 10 Jan
1700. "The General Armory", by Burke (1884/1969) reports on the arm of
Taylor/Taylour of Dublin, Lincoln Inn; descended from James Taylor, Esq. fourth
son of Sir Thomas Taylour, Bart. They are are described as "ermine on a chief
gules, a fleur-de-lis between two boars' heads couped and erect or, a crescent
for diff." The Crest is described as "A naked arm couped at the shoulder
embowed, holding an arrow proper." The Motto is said to be "Consequitur
quodcunque petit." So, this reference proves that the Headfort Coat of Arms,
Crest and Motto were probably in use since at least 1704 by Sir Thomas Taylor,
1st Bart.
Where is Lincoln's Inn? Isn't that in England, not Ireland? Doesn't this
reference to Lincoln's Inn suggest that the amrs were brought to Ireland from
an earlier time in England?
Here is something else to ponder. I have recently communicated with a Stan
Jones. He has proved his lineage back to a Francis Taylor born 1777 in
Funshinagh, Co Leitrim, Ireland. He sent me a picture by snail mail of a spoon
handle of silverware in his grandmother's house which has the Crest identical
to the Headfort Crest and the Crest on my Taylor's ring. This is what Stan
Jones said when I asked him about the silverware:
"My grandmother's Taylor family was of the Church or Ireland
(Anglican/Protestant) rather than RC. Don't know any more about the spoon...I
believe there were other things (plates) but everbody in the family was so
'secretive'. "
Stan Jones' Francis Taylor (b. 1777) has no proven connecton into the Headfort
Taylors or the lineage connected with the Headfort Taylors. Yet, his Taylors
claim to be entitled to the Crest used by the Headfort Taylors. His Francis
Taylor also has no proven connection with my James Taylor. This suggests that
Francis Taylor and the Headfort Taylors had a common Taylor ancestor who was
using the same Crest. Is the connection before or after Sir Thomas Taylor's
grant of arms in 1704?
I am far from an expert in English heraldry. It is my understanding from
communicating with an expert that arms were either granted by the King or
assumed by the gentry (and later confirmed by visitations from the Heralds (by
the King). I further understand that assumed arms had to be used for a
prescribed number of years prior to the visitation to be eligible to be
confirmed (although I am sure that an unscrupulous herald could have been
bought off to confirm non-qualifying assumed arms). When new arms were being
granted by the King to someone with previously granted or confirmed arms, the
new arms would very likely be virtually the same arms as previously being used
with some variation for distinction. The same Crest and Motto would likely be
used in this situation.
Does it not seem reasonable for a descendant from James Taylor (d. 1698) and
for Stan Jones toassume that our ancestors were not frauds and may have been
entitled to used the heraldry which is attributed to them? Would it be
imprudent for either of us not to explore this clue to the fullest before
discarding it? When we are through we may have found our next earliest
ancestor while still not being able to convince Nathaniel or others that our
ancestors were entitled to use the heraldry they displayed. I would be
satisfied with this result.
Renia Simmonds
The genealogy of General Pringle Taylor (born 25/1/1796,died 5/3/1884, m 12/7/1827
Adelaide Shedden) is shown in Burke's Landed Gentry, 1898, vol ii, for what it is
worth. The family seats are given as Pennington House, near Lymington, hampshire,
and Mount House, St leonards-on-Sea, Sussex. His father was Lord Chief Justice of
Jamaica, his grandfather was a Judge at Monmouth, New Jersey, and his
great-grandfather married a girl from South Hampton, Long Island, being the son of
Edward Taylor who purchased 1000 acres at Middlestown, new Jersey in 1692. Edward,
while still living in London, had succeeded to his brother Matthew's property (will
dated 1687 New York). From there, the lineage goes back to Matthew Taylor (supposed
to be youngest son by his 1st wife, of John Taylor, of Shadochurst, Kent, ancestor
of the Taylors of Shadochurst, Extinct Baronets), removed into Sussex. No mention
of Virginia is made, and no coat of arms or mottoes are shown.
The same volume shows various other Taylor families, some with, and some without
mottoes and crests.
One family, the Tayleurs of Buntingsdale (viz Buntingsdale Hall, near Market
Drayton, Shropshire), has Arms thus:
Erm., on a chief sa., three escallop shells arg. Crest - out of a ducal coronet or,
a dexter arm in armour, holding in the hand a sword, all ppr.
(While quite different, it has a vague similarity to the crest said to be that of
the Taylors of Virginia, in that both have "dexter" arms (one in armour, one naked)
"holding" variously an arrow, or a sword.)
Which brings us to Taylour, Marquess of Headfort.
Burke's Peerage, 1829 gives the root of this family, as The Right Hon Thomas
Taylour, son of Thomas Taylour, of Ringmore, in Sussex, (which Thomas went over to
Ireland and settled there, in the train of Sir William Petty, about the middle of
the seventeenth century) was created a Baronet of Ireland on 12th July 1704.
Burke's Peerage, 1953, gives it slightly differently - Thomas Taylor, of Ringmore,
Battle, Sussex, purchased lands at Skircorner in Stonham in the same county and
died Sept 1629, aged 70, having had issue, John his heir and Nicholas of Watling,
Sussex (who dsp.) John Taylor, of Thorndance, Battle, Sussex, which he purchased in
1627, and died 1658, aged 65, leaving with 4 daus (who d young), an only son,
thomas Tayhlor, of Kells, co Meath, who proceeded to ireland, inthe year 1653, with
his friend and college companion the famous Sir William Petty, and undertook and
perfected, inconjunction with sir William, the DOWN SURVEY. The maps, although the
joint production of Petty and Taylor, wee publishe din Sir William's name alone.
Burke's (both editions) give the family motto as Consequitur quodcunque petit while
they give the crest as a naked arm, couped at the shoulder embowed, holding an
arrow, ppr. These are stated to be the same motto and crest as that of Taylor of
Virginia.
What interests me about all this, is what of the shield? Did the Taylors of
Virginia have no shield? Anyone can acquire a crest. My family has a crest, and a
common motto. That same crest is used on a website by a company which has named its
product after my family. But the shield is another matter.
The recent (as above described) ancestors of the Marquess of Headfort, do not give
any room for potential descendants who went to Virginia. I have an ancestor who
became an Archbishop in Ireland, and his genealogy is published in Burke's, etc,
(giving him the wrong father, it must be said), and omitting his brother, who
became a merchant in London, before going to Virginia in 1683, something I only
found out through the internet.
If you wish to prove a connection between the Taylours (Marquess of Headfort), and
Taylors of Virginia, then the Visitations need to be consulted, and Court Rolls,
and other more localised material only available in the County Record Office, at
Lewes, in Sussex, not to mention the Victoria County Histories, (Sussex Volume). As
to the Taylors of Pennington, if they shared an ancestry with the Marquess of
Headfort, this fact would doubtless have been mentioned in Burke's Landed Gentry,
in much the same manner as they mention kinship with Taylor, Baronet.
It has to be said, that Taylor is an excrutiatingly common name in England, and
more probably derives from the occupation, than from any convuluted corruption of
French names.
I have a vague interest in this, as I may be out of the Headfort stable myself.
(Still looking into it!)
Renia
D. Spencer Hines
Kenneth H. Finton --- 27 December 1999
----------------------------------
No.
King John's wife was Isabella d'Angouleme, Comtesse d'Anglouleme.
Her Father was Aymer de Valence "Taillefer" --- Comte d'Angouleme, who
died in 1218.
'Taillefer' is a sobriquet or nickname. It means "cuts through iron"
[Ironcutter] --- perhaps he was quite handy with a sword and/or mace and
chain.
"Stalin" means 'Man of Steel' as we remember --- good macho stuff.
If your Father has a sobriquet it does not automatically transfer to you
as a surname. Let's say your Father's nickname is "Rocky" --- certainly
not the first in the History of the World to carry that sobriquet.
You do not automatically become "Kenneth H. Rocky".
It doesn't work backwards either. If your Father was "Rocky" --- that
does not mean that his Father and Grandfather are also automatically
"Rocky".
So, the genealogy, infra, with all those "Taillefers" is gibberish, even
with all the bibliographical window-dressing underneath. Please take it
away and fix it.
Volte-Face.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
New Subject:
"Lackland" is also a sobriquet, not part of John's name. Vide infra.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Newer Subject:
'Taillefer of Hastings' --- if he existed --- is also not the First
Knight in the History of the World to bear the sobriquet 'Taillefer'.
Vide supra. Non vide infra.
I've seen 'Taillefer of Hastings' --- who supposedly initiated the
festivities at Hastings on Saturday, 14 October 1066, described as both
a dwarf and a giant --- in different Genealogies and Histories.
Nice sense of balance on the part of the charlatan genealogists and
historians --- equal rights for the short and the tall. Good solid
sense of Political-Correctness.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
<KHF...@aol.com> wrote in message news:0.bed50b6...@aol.com...
[...]
| Isabella of Angouleme, wife of John Lackland, [sic] was a Taillifer,
which
| means the Taillifer line is share [sic] by most members of this forum.
PDel...@aol.com
Taillefer or Tagliafero as Spencer Hines rightly says is indeed a soubriquet
or Nick name and is only referred to an individual in his lifetime or memory.
Certainly some soubriquets eventually became family names such as Armstrong
... but TAYLOR/TAILOR/TAYLER & other derivative names were 'occupational'
names such as CARPENTER/CHARPENTIER/CARPINTERO.
I descend from several TAYLOR families, all of which came from this blessed
Isle-all seem to have an origin in the 15th century, certainly no more than
Franklin in the social scale. Some rose to great prominence and acquired a
'coat of Armoure,' others also rose and fell. But none could and did claim a
Taillefer connection - this seems to be the invention of a Victorian gent who
wanted to show that he was as 'great' as others and had the proverbial 'chip'
on his shoulder. It is effectively unheard of, that the bearer of the name of
a trade could ever have a patrician paternal ancestry that stretches back to
the dark ages! It was not the done thing!
PG
Brian M. Scott
[...]
> 'Taillefer' is a sobriquet or nickname. It means "cuts through iron"
More literally, 'cut-iron'. 'Guillaume Ier, comte d'Angoumois, reçut ce
surnom parce qu'il aurait fendu la poitrine d'un chef normand couvert
d'armure' (Dauzat, _Dictionnaire étymologique des noms et prénoms de
France_ s.n. Taille).
[...]
> 'Taillefer of Hastings' --- if he existed --- is also not the First
> Knight in the History of the World to bear the sobriquet 'Taillefer'.
He's usually described as a minstrel or jongleur.
[...]
Brian M. Scott
Colin Bevan
through iron" refer ironically (pardon the pun) to his biting wit rather
than his martial skills? Just a thought.
Rosie
D. Spencer Hines
Thoughtful indeed.
'Taillefer' allegedly did a juggling act with his sword as a prelude to
the Battle of Hastings --- in some, non-contemporary accounts.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
"Colin Bevan" <cbe...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:004401bf527a$8fc98660$04b51bca@cbevancompaq...