Kendal, Lancaster, Workington
M.Sjostrom
supposed pedigree:
Ketel (of Workington/Wyrkinton). He must have been living in about 1050.
children included:
1 (hypothesis) Eldred of Workington/Wyrkinton; married (Beatrice of Kendal).
Their children included:
1.1 Ketel FitzEldred, lord of Kendal and Workington (mentioned in c1120)
1.2 Godith of Kendal; married Gilbert (de Lancaster)
1.2.1 William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal (d aft 1170) - first cousin (once removed) of Gospatric of Wyrkintoun, with whom he duelled
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00196931&tree=LEO
2 Orm Fitz Ketel (fl 1094); married of G-hilda of Dunbar
2.1 Gospatric of Workington/Wyrkinton (d aft 1179)
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00288725&tree=LEO
----------------------
the above family tree appears fairly understandable.
However, how (if at all) do the following belong to those lineages:
Gilbert, of Stainton in Kendal (prob in first half of 1100s), whose daughter Christian married Michael le Fleming
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00385365&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00284585&tree=LEO
* were he the same as Gilbert (de Lancaster) above ? or not?
Edmund of Kendal (in early 1200s)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00485612&tree=LEO
* whose son ?
Alice/Hawise/Avice of Kendal (of Lancaster) [somewhere in early 1200s], daughter of a William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal; she married William de Linsday, of Lamberton
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00116973&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00271971&tree=LEO
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00116972&tree=LEO
* whose daughter ?
* were she married more than once ? who were her husbands ?
butl...@aol.com
There is a wealth of information that appeared on these lines on this
site 3-5 years ago that lasted for a few months that you might check
out. What had always been accepted as a cut and dry lineage took a
turn that showed none of what was known was right.
It was possibly one of the most intriguing topics this site has had.
The posts were fast, furious, hot, sometimes nasty but educational and
enlightening. It was this subject, where more or less, it was decided
by the majority that source documentation was not only needed but that
documentation needed to be listed and posted as primary, secondary or
other.
It was bloody good fun.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler
M.Sjostrom
Emmett,
do you have those persons and families (Lancaster-Kendal, Wyrkinton) as any sort of pedigree ?
does it correlate, and how well, with this tree I listed. ??
namely, I went through that meandering discussion or some of it, and formed that tree (which is in the first msg of this thread). Trying to keep to things which were quoted from near-contemporary materials.
so, I would be glad to hear if there were mistakes, in the tree.
And even more I would be glad, if anyone could point to which place those Kendal persons belong in the tree, who I asked after in my first msg of this thread.
--------
as I understood the discussions which I saw,
Gospatric of Workington was son of Orm, by his wife Gravhild (or something, ?Gunild?) of Dunbar, seemingly according to some near-contemporary source.
That Orm was son of a Ketel - I think it was already a patronymic used of him in some near-contem source, which attests that small point.
(another) Ketel was patronymized as son of Eldred/Ethelred, was it in some near-contem source.
These Ketels are uneasy to be the same - they could be grandfather-grandson.
Ketel Fitz Eldred was avunculus (uncle, means majorly 'maternal')
of William son of Gilbert, de Lancaster. This avunculus thing was seemingly in some near-contem source.
I think there were some near-contem source which reported the duellists, William of Kendal and Gospatric of Wyrkinton, as cousins.
So, is this tree in contradiction with any known contem source about those families ?
M.Sjostrom
the names Ketel and Orm are scandinavian. Either Danish or Norse, in this case.
Ketel = Kjetil, Ketil, Kettil, Kjeld, a name in use in high-medieval Denmark, and in Norway too.
Orm = Orm, Gorm, [Guthorm, Guttorm] 'worm' and 'snake'
a place like Wyrkintoun could have either norse or Dane as lord: it's not that far away from e.g Danelaw regime of York, nor that far away from Norse viking places of Irish sea.
Eldred, AEthelred, was of course primarily an Anglo-Saxon name.
Gospatric as name must have had celtic origins.
Renia
>
> Emmett,
>
> do you have those persons and families (Lancaster-Kendal, Wyrkinton) as any sort of pedigree ?
> does it correlate, and how well, with this tree I listed. ??
>
> namely, I went through that meandering discussion or some of it, and formed that tree (which is in the first msg of this thread). Trying to keep to things which were quoted from near-contemporary materials.
>
> so, I would be glad to hear if there were mistakes, in the tree.
You could try this, if it is still available by inter-library loan or
purchase:
John F. Curwen, A History of the Ancient House of Curwen of Workington
in Cumberland (Kendal, Cumberland, U.K.: Titus Wilson & Co., 1928)
The Curwens descend from the family you are interested in.
Also, pedigree of the Curwens:
Renia
Renia
There is this lady, described as a Princess because she was a dau of
Gospatric, and was ancestress of the Curwens:
wjho...@aol.com
sources, and utterly ridiculous connections and fantasies. Everywhere
I have it cited in my database, I am slowly removing it.
I might even remove it from my list of Sources on my main website at
some point. *We have quite enough* uncited far-reaching family trees
online. I wish people would stop posting them :) Including myself.
As for thepeerage and it's citation to a 1928 book, much better, but
the author seems not to have known then that Gospatric was a son of Orm.
I'm a bit skeptical that someone in the 13th century was using this
surname "Wirkington" [sic]. I'd like to see the primary sources on
that supposed connection downward from Orm to the Culwen family.
Will
wjho...@aol.com
http://www.thepeerage.com/p21879.htm#i218790
a reference to "Thomas Wirkington" [sic]
I propose that the actual documents say something like
"Thomas FitzGospatric of Workington"
and someone has bungled it up.
Will
Renia
> Tudorplace.com.ar is a worthless mish-mash of good but uncited
> sources, and utterly ridiculous connections and fantasies. Everywhere I
> have it cited in my database, I am slowly removing it.
Fair enough. I've not used it but I bumped into it looking for the Curwens.
> I might even remove it from my list of Sources on my main website at
> some point. *We have quite enough* uncited far-reaching family trees
> online. I wish people would stop posting them :) Including myself.
>
> As for thepeerage and it's citation to a 1928 book, much better, but the
> author seems not to have known then that Gospatric was a son of Orm.
He did, on a different page, IIRC. No, that was the other site, Tudorplace.
> I'm a bit skeptical that someone in the 13th century was using this
> surname "Wirkington" [sic]. I'd like to see the primary sources on that
> supposed connection downward from Orm to the Culwen family.
That's where he was from, so I should think it's as much as a locative
identifier as an early surname use.
wjho...@aol.com
We presume that he controlled Workington (a place-name), as his father
had before, but I am not clear whether we *actually* have any document
naming him as "de Workington" or Lord of Workington or what have you.
We do however have a document which states that Thomas was the son of
Gospatric, during Gospatric's lifetime. So in that, he obviously
wouldn't have been called Lord of Workington.
Perhaps someone could quote exactly how Thomas is styled, after his
father's death, if there is anything.
Will
wjhonson
> supposed pedigree:
>
> Ketel (of Workington/Wyrkinton). He must have been living in about 1050.
> children included:
>
> 1 (hypothesis) Eldred of Workington/Wyrkinton; married (Beatrice of Kendal).
> Their children included:
>
It is not clear that Beatrice de Taillebois, daughter of Ivo Lord of
Kendal had *any* children by Eldred. Eldred was alive in 1086, but
presumably dead by 1093 as his wife Beatrice is supposed to have
married secondly Ribald FitzEudo, Lord of Middleham *by whom* she had
a son Ralph who had to have been born *by* 1094.
> 1.1 Ketel FitzEldred, lord of Kendal and Workington (mentioned in c1120)
>
I do not know that Ketel is ever called "Lord of kendal"
contemporaneously. This might be a forced fit to try to explain what
happened with Kendal. Even if Ketel was lord of Kendal, this does not
necessarily have to imply that he gained this baronage by inheritance.
> 1.2 Godith of Kendal; married Gilbert (de Lancaster)
>
> 1.2.1 William de Lancaster, lord of Kendal (d aft 1170) - first cousin (once removed) of Gospatric of Wyrkintoun, with whom he duelled http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00196931&tree=LEO
>
> 2 Orm Fitz Ketel (fl 1094); married of G-hilda of Dunbar
>
> 2.1 Gospatric of Workington/Wyrkinton (d aft 1179)http://genealogics.org/descend.php?personID=I00288725&tree=LEO
>
I think you place Orm wrongly here. I think it's more likely that
this Orm, father of Gospatric, was the *son* of Ketel, not his uncle.
Will Johnson
Renia
I don't know if any of this helps, the following surmised from
Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants and Domesday People:
ELDRED
Englishman, of Workington, Cumberland, held lands in the barony of
Kendal. Married Beatrice, daughter of Ivo Taillebois (and she married
secondly to Ribald, none of Ivo's property passing to their
descendants). Their daughter Godith married Gilbert of Lancaster,
parents of William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster (alias William Taillebois)
who held the Taillebois barony of Kendal post-Domesday (and 2 fees of
the barony of Kendal and of Lonsdale of Roger de Mowbray in 1166) and
died after 1170. This William Taillebois married twice and his
granddaughter Helwise, married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who
became lord of Kendal in her right.
|
KETEL
Otherwise Chetel. Inherited some of his mother's lands in the barony of
Kendal. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees (founded 1120). Married
Christiana. Had sons William and Orm. Died several years after 1120.
|
ORM
|
GOSPATRIC
Heir of his father
also:
ARNKETIL
Leading thegn in Yorkshire involved in revolts of 1068 and 1069.
|
GOSPATRIC
Englishman, tenant-in-chief in Domesday [n.b. not the Earl of
Northumbria - DB Phillimore]. Held part of his father's inheritance in
1086. Succeeded by son Uhctred of Allerston who held most of his
father's lands as mesne tenancies rather than in chief. Another son,
Simon was ancestor of the Mahaut family.
|
DOLFIN
|
UCTRED
Third son of Dolfin
|
SIMON
:
Ancestors of HEBDEN family
M.Sjostrom
I find it odd, incredible, that a Ketel, flourishing in c1120, is 'surmised' as the father of an Orm, who flourished in 1094.
I think that in this Keats-Rohan - Renia surmising, we see a sad example of the method 'name is the same' in the work.
In my view, the four-generation pedigree 'surmised' is a botch, it better to be cut between the second generation and Orm
-------------------
surmised from
Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants and Domesday People:
ELDRED
Englishman, of Workington, Cumberland, held lands in the barony of
Kendal. Married Beatrice, daughter of Ivo Taillebois (and she married
secondly to Ribald, none of Ivo's property passing to their
descendants). Their daughter Godith married Gilbert of Lancaster,
parents of William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster (alias William Taillebois)
who held the Taillebois barony of Kendal post-Domesday (and 2 fees of
the barony of Kendal and of Lonsdale of Roger de Mowbray in 1166) and
died after 1170. This William Taillebois married twice and his
granddaughter Helwise, married Gilbert, son of Roger fitz Reinfrid, who
became lord of Kendal in her right.
|
KETEL
Otherwise Chetel. Inherited some of his mother's lands in the barony of
Kendal. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees (founded 1120). Married
Christiana. Had sons William and Orm. Died several years after 1120.
|
ORM (observe that he was attested in 1094)
|
GOSPATRIC
Heir of his father
---------------------
this Orm's patronymic, which apparently was mentioned in a near-contemporary source, says he was son of a Ketil/Ketel.
but it's unlikely that said Ketel 'Ormsfather' would have been same as the Ketel fitz Elred, who lived later than Orm himself.
Rather, there more likely was two Ketels.
since some source mentions William of Kendal and Gospatric of Wyrkinton as cousins, that would be true, if such two Ketels were grandfather and grandson.
that is a hypothesis which would have the abovelisted Eldred and Orm as brothers.
Renia
>
> I find it odd, incredible, that a Ketel, flourishing in c1120, is 'surmised' as the father of an Orm, who flourished in 1094.
I'll check this out.
> I think that in this Keats-Rohan - Renia surmising, we see a sad example of the method 'name is the same' in the work.
I take it you have never heard of Dr Katherine Keats-Rohan and her
prosopographical unit at the University of Oxford? After several years'
research in contemporary primary sources, she published "Domesday
People" and "Domesday Descendants", which are biographical entries for
people named in Domesday Book and 11th-12th century charters.
> In my view, the four-generation pedigree 'surmised' is a botch, it better to be cut between the second generation and Orm
Do you mean you do not think Orm is the son of Ketel?
M.Sjostrom
Renia, I thought I already answered that very question, in the message before your question.
Here's my answer, again. Hope you get able to read it:
Renia
Sorry, sometimes I find your English difficult to read.
KETEL FILIUS ELDRED
Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Tallebois, some of whose land in the
barony of Kendal he inherited. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees,
founded 1120, to which he gave land in Morland and Workington with the
assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm, whose
son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St Leonard's,
York, was confirmed by his sister's son william fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster. He died several years after 1120. (Keats-Rohan, Domesday
Descendants)
Renia
GOSPATRIC
Englishman, tenant-in-chief in Domesday Yorkshire. His father Arnketil
had been a leading Yorkshire thegn involved in the revolts of 1068 and
1069. He submitted to William at York in 1068 leaving his son Gospatrick
as hostage. Gospatrick went on to become the sole thegn to hold at least
a part of his father's inheritance in 1086. He was succeeded by his son
Uhctred of Allerston, who held most of his father's lands as mesne
tenancies rather than in chief. Ancestor of the Maohaut family,
descendants of his grandson Simon son of Gospatrick, and also of the
Hebden family, descendants of Simon son of Uctred, third son of
Gospatric's son Dolfin. (Keats-Rohan, Domesday People)
UCTRED FILIUS DOLFIN
Grandson of Gospatrick. Also known as Uctred de Cungeston, from
Conistone, where he held land of the honour of Skipton. He also held
land in Burnsall of the Bulmer fief, and in Ilton of Turgis fitz Malger.
Father of Simon, ancestor of the Hebden family, and Ketel. (Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants)
ELDRED
Englishman, Domesday tenant of William de Percy in Yorkshire.
KETEL FILIUS ELDRED
Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Tallebois, some of whose land in the
barony of Kendal he inherited. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees,
founded 1120, to which he gave land in Morland and Workington with the
assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm, whose
son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St Leonard's,
York, was confirmed by his sister's son william fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster. He died several years after 1120. (Keats-Rohan, Domesday
Descendants)
BEATRIX TAILLEBOIS
Daughter of Ivo Taillebois and his unknown first wife....... Ivo's own
barony of Kendal, granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of
Eldred and then to Ketel's nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster,
surnamed Taillebois...... Beatrice is known to have married Ribald,
half-brother of the Conqueror's Breton cousin County Alan before 1093.
She was dead by c. 1121 at the time of a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and
their son Ralph Taillebois. Given that Ketel Fiz Eldred, his nephew
William of Lancaster, and Ralph fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120,
just a few years before Ivo's widow buried her third husband, one can
conclude that Beatrice was a legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous
to Lucy, who was Beatrice's contemporary, and that she was first the
wife of the Englishman Eldred and subsequently the wife of Ribald.
M.Sjostrom
of course, if someone wants to make Keats-Rohan as a religion, a creed, then I guess nothing can be done to correct her possible mistakes.
I however happened to read someone's finding there in the discussion some years ago in this group, where there was a source saying that Gospatric received Wyrkinton lands (which had belonged to Ketel fitz Eldred's branch, his kinsmen) as result of an exchange, ceding them his some own land which was mentioned by its name there (and apparently is closer to Kendal properties in Westmorland than Wyrkinton ?in Cumberland? is - so there was definite rationality in the exchange transaction).
Such exchange of manorlands, actually *demolishes* totally the effect of having Gospatric as 'eventual heir', because Gospatric if it was an exchange, was not heir of Ketel fitz Eldred, but recipient of a transaction from heirs of said Ketel.
the Keat-Rohan belief "Orm, whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir" thusly gets totally worthless.
Renia
>
> of course, if someone wants to make Keats-Rohan as a religion, a creed, then I guess nothing can be done to correct her possible mistakes.
Strange attitude to take. She is an English scholar based at the
University of Oxford. Everyone makes mistakes, but her work has a lot of
value. I'm surprised you have never heard of her.
> I however happened to read someone's finding there in the discussion some years ago in this group, where there was a source saying that Gospatric received Wyrkinton lands (which had belonged to Ketel fitz Eldred's branch, his kinsmen) as result of an exchange, ceding them his some own land which was mentioned by its name there (and apparently is closer to Kendal properties in Westmorland than Wyrkinton ?in Cumberland? is - so there was definite rationality in the exchange transaction).
>
> Such exchange of manorlands, actually *demolishes* totally the effect of having Gospatric as 'eventual heir', because Gospatric if it was an exchange, was not heir of Ketel fitz Eldred, but recipient of a transaction from heirs of said Ketel.
> the Keat-Rohan belief "Orm, whose son Gospatric was his eventual heir" thusly gets totally worthless.
She has a database of all the biographies she has completed along with
the sources for the information.
http://www.linacre.ox.ac.uk/Linacre/new/prosopographical-research-unit/coel-database
If you are really serious about getting to the truth, then perhaps you
can find a way to consult this database.
Merilyn Pedrick
it in my notes for Ivo de Taillebois:
Merilyn
"The following is a post to SGM, 22 Oct 2001, by Rosie Bevan (gives details
of Ivo's claim to Kendal):
From: Rosie Bevan (cbe...@paradise.net.nz)
Subject: Taillebois [was Gundred de Warenne, Countess of Warwick)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-10-22 17:57:13 PST
Hi Todd
Yes, I agree in the normal course of events, it was very unusual for a
Norman to name a son by an English name. On the face of it, this family
appears to have been a mix of Norman, Saxon and Scandinavian and blood. The
barony of Kendal was granted to Ivo de Taillebois, who died about 1089, by
William Rufus and during the reign of Henry I it passed to Ketel son of
Eldred, lord of Workington. Ketel was followed by his son Gilbert and
Gilbert by his son William of Lancaster. Dugdale in Monasticon [v.5, p.249]
claims that William was called Taillebois and by permission from the king
(Henry II) changed his name to Lancaster. [Sanders p.56]. Why he would need
permission, I'm not sure. Ketel also had a son Orm which I think is also a
Scandinavian name. I think it is important to remember that this was at the
northern tip of the Norman empire in England where Norman influence and
culture was not initially quite so important locally and the north of
England has always had a different culture and perspective from the south.
Cumberland was not even covered in the Domesday Book.
Whether there is a genetic link between Ivo de Taillebois and Eldred is
not absolutely clear but for Eldred to have been born to Ivo, he (Ivo) would
have had to have married a very high status Saxon lady (his marriage to
Countess Lucy was evidently contracted late in life). For Eldred to have had
a son with a Norwegian name he would have had to have married a high status
Norwegian lady. Ketel appears to have maried a Norman lady although Orm,
Ketel's son, was reputedly married to Gunnild DA. Of Gospatric and
granddaughter of Harold II. I am no expert on this period (and it probably
shows) so would appreciate informed comment from someone who has studied
This line. Cheers Rosie
Note: I at one time had Eldred as son of Ivo de Taillebois, but have
subsequently changed it based on later information to his son Ketel
(Chetell) marrying a daughter of Ivo, thus explaining the relationship."
-------Original Message-------
From: Renia
Date: 8/05/2009 7:00:16 AM
Subject: Re: Kendal, Lancaster, Workington
M.Sjostrom wrote:
>
>
>
>
> -------------------
>
> surmised from
>
> ELDRED
> |
> KETEL
> |
> |
> GOSPATRIC
> Heir of his father
>
> ---------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
GOSPATRIC
Had been a leading Yorkshire thegn involved in the revolts of 1068 and
1069. He submitted to William at York in 1068 leaving his son Gospatrick
As hostage. Gospatrick went on to become the sole thegn to hold at least
A part of his father's inheritance in 1086. He was succeeded by his son
Uhctred of Allerston, who held most of his father's lands as mesne
Tenancies rather than in chief. Ancestor of the Maohaut family,
Descendants of his grandson Simon son of Gospatrick, and also of the
Hebden family, descendants of Simon son of Uctred, third son of
Gospatric's son Dolfin. (Keats-Rohan, Domesday People)
UCTRED FILIUS DOLFIN
Grandson of Gospatrick. Also known as Uctred de Cungeston, from
Conistone, where he held land of the honour of Skipton. He also held
Land in Burnsall of the Bulmer fief, and in Ilton of Turgis fitz Malger.
Father of Simon, ancestor of the Hebden family, and Ketel. (Keats-Rohan,
Domesday Descendants)
ELDRED
Englishman, Domesday tenant of William de Percy in Yorkshire.
KETEL FILIUS ELDRED
Son of Eldred and a daughter of Ivo Tallebois, some of whose land in the
Barony of Kendal he inherited. Benefactor of the abbey of St Bees,
Founded 1120, to which he gave land in Morland and Workington with the
Assent of his wife Christiana and son William. Father also of Orm, whose
Son Gospatric was his eventual heir. His grant of land to St Leonard's,
York, was confirmed by his sister's son William fitz Gilbert of
Lancaster. He died several years after 1120. (Keats-Rohan, Domesday
Descendants)
BEATRIX TAILLEBOIS
Daughter of Ivo Taillebois and his unknown first wife....... Ivo's own
Barony of Kendal, granted after 1086 went (possibly) to Ketel son of
Eldred and then to Ketel's nephew William fitz Gilbert of Lancaster,
Surnamed Taillebois...... Beatrice is known to have married Ribald,
Half-brother of the Conqueror's Breton cousin County Alan before 1093.
She was dead by c. 1121 at the time of a gift to St Mary's by Ribald and
Their son Ralph Taillebois. Given that Ketel Fiz Eldred, his nephew
William of Lancaster, and Ralph fitz Ribald, were all active c.1120,
Just a few years before Ivo's widow buried her third husband, one can
conclude that Beatrice was a legitimate heir of Ivo by a wife previous
to Lucy, who was Beatrice's contemporary, and that she was first the
wife of the Englishman Eldred and subsequently the wife of Ribald.
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