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Descendants of Alfred the Great
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Richard Smith
Aug 9, 2013, 1:01:14 PM8/9/13
to
The BBC news website has a story saying that the remains believed to be
of King Alfred are to be examined.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23630812
In particular, it says "Ms Burns said DNA testing [...] could be an
option but finding a descendant of Alfred would be trickier as he died
almost 600 years earlier." Am I right in thinking this is basically
nonsense?
Mitochondrial DNA testing isn't possible as Alfred was no-one's mother,
his only known sister, �thelswith, is believed to have died childless,
and not enough is know about the family of Alfred's mother, Osburh, to
know of any more distant matrilineal relatives.
Y-chromosome testing doesn't immediately seem a whole lot more
plausible. All the published genealogies I've seen show the House of
Cerdic dying out with Edgar the �theling, some time in the early 12th
century.
However, I've seen some speculative genealogies that make the extinction
of the male line move recent. For example, A. Anscombe's 1913 paper,
"Pedigree of Earl Godwin", makes Harold II a descendant of �thelred I
through �thelweard 'the Historian'. If Anscombe's theory is correct,
and if �thelweard's descent from �thelred is patrilineal as is often
suggested, that extends the House of Cerdic at least to Guttorm
Ingesson, son of Inge II of Norway, who died in the early 13th century.
Are there any other plausible hypotheses that extend the patrilineal
descent more recently, or even to the present day? If there happen to
be such speculative descents, it seems to me that there might still be
value in Y-DNA testing of them against the supposed bones of Alfred. A
negative result wouldn't convey much information. (Are the bones not
Alfred's? Is the hypothetical descent incorrect? Did some other
"non-paternity event" occur?) But a positive result would be fairly
persuasive evidence both that the bones are Alfred's and that the
speculative descent is correct.
Richard
of King Alfred are to be examined.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23630812
In particular, it says "Ms Burns said DNA testing [...] could be an
option but finding a descendant of Alfred would be trickier as he died
almost 600 years earlier." Am I right in thinking this is basically
nonsense?
Mitochondrial DNA testing isn't possible as Alfred was no-one's mother,
his only known sister, �thelswith, is believed to have died childless,
and not enough is know about the family of Alfred's mother, Osburh, to
know of any more distant matrilineal relatives.
Y-chromosome testing doesn't immediately seem a whole lot more
plausible. All the published genealogies I've seen show the House of
Cerdic dying out with Edgar the �theling, some time in the early 12th
century.
However, I've seen some speculative genealogies that make the extinction
of the male line move recent. For example, A. Anscombe's 1913 paper,
"Pedigree of Earl Godwin", makes Harold II a descendant of �thelred I
through �thelweard 'the Historian'. If Anscombe's theory is correct,
and if �thelweard's descent from �thelred is patrilineal as is often
suggested, that extends the House of Cerdic at least to Guttorm
Ingesson, son of Inge II of Norway, who died in the early 13th century.
Are there any other plausible hypotheses that extend the patrilineal
descent more recently, or even to the present day? If there happen to
be such speculative descents, it seems to me that there might still be
value in Y-DNA testing of them against the supposed bones of Alfred. A
negative result wouldn't convey much information. (Are the bones not
Alfred's? Is the hypothetical descent incorrect? Did some other
"non-paternity event" occur?) But a positive result would be fairly
persuasive evidence both that the bones are Alfred's and that the
speculative descent is correct.
Richard
joe...@gmail.com
Aug 9, 2013, 4:58:48 PM8/9/13
to
On Friday, August 9, 2013 1:01:14 PM UTC-4, Richard Smith wrote:
> The BBC news website has a story saying that the remains believed to be
>
> of King Alfred are to be examined.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23630812
> In particular, it says "Ms Burns said DNA testing [...] could be an
>
> option but finding a descendant of Alfred would be trickier as he died
>
> almost 600 years earlier." Am I right in thinking this is basically
>
> nonsense?
I don't think it is nonsense. I think they said it right. It would be pretty tricky to find an Alfred descendant. Maybe they can just compare to the bones of his son Edward the Elder at St. Lawrence. Or Edward the Confessor at Westminster Abbey. These would be better sources to test because they should be able to show a much closer relationship.
> The BBC news website has a story saying that the remains believed to be
>
> of King Alfred are to be examined.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23630812
> In particular, it says "Ms Burns said DNA testing [...] could be an
>
> option but finding a descendant of Alfred would be trickier as he died
>
> almost 600 years earlier." Am I right in thinking this is basically
>
> nonsense?
Hovite
Aug 10, 2013, 2:29:42 PM8/10/13
to
On Friday, August 9, 2013 6:01:14 PM UTC+1, Richard Smith wrote:
>Alfred
>Æthelswith
>Edgar the Ætheling
>Æthelweard 'the Historian'
I prefer to spell all these names with E as it clarifies the alliteration that this Kentish house used. Also, the first element of Elfred is elf.
>All the published genealogies I've seen show the House of
>Cerdic dying out with Edgar the Ætheling, some time in the >early 12th century.
The old West Saxon house had names beginning with C and died out with Ine (who was an exception). He was succeeded by his wife's brother, Ethelheard, which marks a clear change of line. Ethelheard may have been a member of the Kentish house, because after a few kings of unknown ancestry, Ecgbert III of Kent obtained Wessex.
Unfortunately Elfred falsified his genealogy, by claiming male line descent from a brother of Ine, but as this was just part of a scheme to link back to Adam via Woden, there is good reason to dismiss the connexion as fictional.
>Alfred
>Æthelswith
>Edgar the Ætheling
>Æthelweard 'the Historian'
I prefer to spell all these names with E as it clarifies the alliteration that this Kentish house used. Also, the first element of Elfred is elf.
>All the published genealogies I've seen show the House of
The old West Saxon house had names beginning with C and died out with Ine (who was an exception). He was succeeded by his wife's brother, Ethelheard, which marks a clear change of line. Ethelheard may have been a member of the Kentish house, because after a few kings of unknown ancestry, Ecgbert III of Kent obtained Wessex.
Unfortunately Elfred falsified his genealogy, by claiming male line descent from a brother of Ine, but as this was just part of a scheme to link back to Adam via Woden, there is good reason to dismiss the connexion as fictional.
Richard Smith
Aug 10, 2013, 4:45:45 PM8/10/13
to
On 10/08/13 19:29, "Hovite" wrote:
> Unfortunately Elfred falsified his genealogy, by claiming male
> line descent from a brother of Ine, but as this was just part
> of a scheme to link back to Adam via Woden, there is good reason
> to dismiss the connexion as fictional.
It's certainly possible that the line from Egbert back to a purported
> Unfortunately Elfred falsified his genealogy, by claiming male
> line descent from a brother of Ine, but as this was just part
> of a scheme to link back to Adam via Woden, there is good reason
> to dismiss the connexion as fictional.
brother of Ine is fictional, however it's not a matter I've formed an
opinion on. I was using the term 'House of Cerdic' rather sloppily to
refer to the descendants of Egbert. But from what I've seen, the
matter seems far from clear, and the line is accepted by a fair number
of reputable historians and genealogists. Or am I behind the times?
Richard
Hovite
Aug 11, 2013, 11:59:19 AM8/11/13
to
On Saturday, August 10, 2013 9:45:45 PM UTC+1, Richard Smith wrote:
> reputable historians and genealogists.
But do they give a reliable source? Is there any contemporary evidence that Ealhmund, King of Kent, was a descendent of Cenred, King of Wessex?
I would have thought that it was more likely that Ecgbert III was descended from Ecgbert I and Ecgbert II, Kings of Kent, and that Ecgbert III’s father, Ealhmund, King of Kent, was related to Eanmund, King of Kent. Also, Ecgbert III is said by a late source to have been related to Eadbert III, King of Kent.
Such documents as survive from the period show that during the reign of Ealhmund, Kent was attacked by a combined Mercian and West Saxon force, and that the princes Eadbert and Ecgbert fled to France. When Offa died, Eadbert was able to return and briefly reign in Kent, and later Ecgbert obtained Wessex after the Mercian puppet Bertric was murdered. How Ecgbert gained Wessex is obscure, but the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (written at the command Elfred) indicates that it as not a case of the nearest relative succeeding to a hereditary office, but a violent change of regime, with unsuccessful intervention from the Mercian province of Hwicce:
"This year was the moon eclipsed, at eight in the evening, on the seventeenth day before the calends of February; and soon after died King Bertric and Ealdorman Worr. Ecgbert succeeded to the West Saxon kingdom; and the same day Ethelmund, Ealdorman of the Hwiccians, rode over the Thames at Kempsford; where he was met by Ealdorman Woxtan, with the men of Wiltshire, and a terrible conflict ensued, in which both the commanders were slain, but the men of Wiltshire obtained the victory."
In 825 Ecgbert III sent his son Ethelwulf into the land of the Kentish men, "because formerly they had been wrongly forced away from his kinsmen" (as the Chronicle explains), which brought Ecgbert and Ethelwulf into conflict with Canterbury. It seems that in an attempt to bolster his position, the Mercian puppet Baldred granted land to the church, and when he was ousted, Ecgbert and Ethelwulf denied the validity of the gift. In 838 the dispute was resolved when Kings Ecgberht III and Ethelwulf confirmed the grant in exchange for recognition of their hereditary rights.
> reputable historians and genealogists.
But do they give a reliable source? Is there any contemporary evidence that Ealhmund, King of Kent, was a descendent of Cenred, King of Wessex?
I would have thought that it was more likely that Ecgbert III was descended from Ecgbert I and Ecgbert II, Kings of Kent, and that Ecgbert III’s father, Ealhmund, King of Kent, was related to Eanmund, King of Kent. Also, Ecgbert III is said by a late source to have been related to Eadbert III, King of Kent.
Such documents as survive from the period show that during the reign of Ealhmund, Kent was attacked by a combined Mercian and West Saxon force, and that the princes Eadbert and Ecgbert fled to France. When Offa died, Eadbert was able to return and briefly reign in Kent, and later Ecgbert obtained Wessex after the Mercian puppet Bertric was murdered. How Ecgbert gained Wessex is obscure, but the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (written at the command Elfred) indicates that it as not a case of the nearest relative succeeding to a hereditary office, but a violent change of regime, with unsuccessful intervention from the Mercian province of Hwicce:
"This year was the moon eclipsed, at eight in the evening, on the seventeenth day before the calends of February; and soon after died King Bertric and Ealdorman Worr. Ecgbert succeeded to the West Saxon kingdom; and the same day Ethelmund, Ealdorman of the Hwiccians, rode over the Thames at Kempsford; where he was met by Ealdorman Woxtan, with the men of Wiltshire, and a terrible conflict ensued, in which both the commanders were slain, but the men of Wiltshire obtained the victory."
In 825 Ecgbert III sent his son Ethelwulf into the land of the Kentish men, "because formerly they had been wrongly forced away from his kinsmen" (as the Chronicle explains), which brought Ecgbert and Ethelwulf into conflict with Canterbury. It seems that in an attempt to bolster his position, the Mercian puppet Baldred granted land to the church, and when he was ousted, Ecgbert and Ethelwulf denied the validity of the gift. In 838 the dispute was resolved when Kings Ecgberht III and Ethelwulf confirmed the grant in exchange for recognition of their hereditary rights.
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