CHAMPERNOUN, Q&A's (long)
Kathie Weigel
pointed me to his excellent posts on the four "branches" of the Devonshire
Champernoun family. After reading them, I queried him privatelty on several
points; a few hours after emailing him, Todd suggested that the info should
be posted to the list. Ronny replied to my questions, and with his permission
I am now reconstructing my questions and his answers for the benefit of the
group. Anyone interested in these Champernouns will first want to check
out Ronny's Jan. 1999 postings in the Gen-Med archive: "Champernoun of Modbury"
(2 pts.), "Champ. of Ilfracombe," "The Early Champ's," and "Champ. of North
Tawton"--otherwise, the following may get more than a little confusing :-)
I will be jumping back in with new questions after this posts. Todd, can you
add any pointers on the last question below (Rauf/Champernoun)? Also, I
have picked up some additional Bykebery info and will post it separately,
if you think it will be of interest.
Kathie
Note: >> = me, > = Ronny
>>1. Oliver Champernoun of Ilfracombe. You have listed his wife as
>>Wymarca, and have shown proof of this. You also mention Vivian's
>>allegation that Oliver was instead married to "Eva" a relative and
>>coheiress of Isolda of Cardinham, and you stated that Vivian
>>confused this Oliver with a distant cousin, s/o Jordan (m. Emma de
>>Soligny). I am confused on this on three points, a: you do not show
>>Jordan and Emma having a son Oliver, b: you do show Jordan and
>>Emma's son William as marrying an Eva (and mention that Wm. is
>>incorrectly identified as an Oliver in one document--is it then
>>this Eva who is the coheiress of Isolda?, and c: regardless which
>>son of Jordan and Emma's (if any) was married to Eva, said son
>>would not be a distant cousin, but rather a first cousin.
>>The reason I bring this up, is because I am wondering if Oliver was
>>married twice. In the account you give of Oliver's son Henry (m.
>>Dionisia), you show Henry holding a manor by gift of Isolda de
>>Cardinham. If Isolda was merely the sister of Henry's grandfather's
>>sister-in-law, then why would she gift Henry with land?
>I will reply to your questions, as best I can, in the order that you
>presented them. I have not dealt with this family since I made the
>postings, so I may be a bit rusty.
>1a. That is correct. Jordan and Emma Champernoun did NOT have a son named
>Oliver, although CIPM, 4: no. 82, being the IPM of Walter de Treverbyn and
>Andrew de Solenny, dated to 1302, states "From Emma the younger sister [of
>Geoffrey de Solenny, heir of Andrew de Solenny, his nephew] issued one
>Oliver de Campo Arnulphi her son and heir, from him one Joan his daughter
>and heir, from her Ralph her son and heir, and from him one John de
>Welynton..." The name of Emma's son should have read William rather than
>Oliver.
>1b. It is Vivian (p. 160) who asserts that Eva was the "relative and
>coheiress of Isolda, daughter and coheiress of Andrea, baroness of
>Cardinham," presumably drawing upon the footnoted source, Harleian
>Manuscript 5185, folio 70. Let's look at the Soligny [aka Suleny]
>heirship. Andrew de Suleny died 1259-1260 leaving as his heir, his uncle
>Geoffrey de Sulenny who got the manor of Kynemeredon, Somersetshire (CIPM,
>1: no. 475). Geoffrey de Sulenny died 1265-6 whose IPM states "His heirs
>are unknown to the jury, but he had sisters, some of whom were married in
>Cornwall and some in Brittany." (CIPM, 1: 629). The sisters, as per CIPM,
>4: no. 82 were Iseult de Sulenny (aka Isolda de Soligny) and Emma de
>Sulenny (aka Emma de Soligny). This latter IPM was actually concerned with
>the manor of Faweton, co. Cornwall, originally held by Andrew and then
>Geoffrey, which manor evolved to the heirs of Geoffrey's sisters, as both
>were dead. Iseult was the wife of Andrew Cardinham, who had died 1252-4,
>and their heirs were their two daughters Emma, wife of Odo de Treverbin and
>Isolda, wife of Thomas de Tracy, then William de Ferrers. Emma de
>Sulenny's heir was William de Campo Arnulphi, incorrectly called Oliver.
>Emma's husband is not named in the IPM, but his identity can be ascertained
>by the fact that William, in 1224, disputed the gift of his great-
>grandmother, Hawise de Redvers, of the manor of Fleet, claiming the manor
>had been earlier given to his father. So the matter of his father being
>Jordan is confirmed. What does all this mean? It means that Vivian made a
>statement that seems to have no basis in fact. At least it is not evident.
>Eva was not an heiress of Isolda, though she was heiress of her husband,
>William de Chambernoun, being his widow in 1249. This seems clear in that
>both Emma and Isolda de Cardinham left descendants for many generations,
>thus excluding anyone else from heirship.
>1c. This statement was included in my account of Champernoun of Ilfracombe
>before I worked up the details of the earlier line, The Early Champernouns,
>and so, is no longer valid. As you say, both were first cousins.
>1d. With regard to the gift of Isolda de Cardinham to Henry de
>Champernoun,
>in 1270, the parties involved in the fine were Hugh de Treverbin, grandson
>of Isolda de Cardinham, and Henry de Champernoun, grandson of Isolda's
>sister Emma's husband Jordan's brother Henry. We don't know why Isolda
>made a gift of these manors to Henry. I don't believe it was just because
>of the
>foregoing relationship, which really is no relationship at all and the fact
>that there were some family ties may be coincidental with no bearing on the
>gift. This may have been because of some business arrangement. Afterall,
>why did Isolda not pass these manors on to her own descendants?
>Could Oliver have been married twice? Certainly. But there is no record
>of Eva being a wife of Oliver outside of Vivian's claims.
>>2. You have placed Oliver of Tawton as the brother of "Richard of
>>Modbury" but did not specify which Richard. Am I correct in
>>assuming that you mean Richard who m. Eliz. Valletort? This makes
>>sense chronologically, and you did make mention of the significance
>>of Oliver marrying the other Valletort heiress.
>2. Yes, Oliver of Tawton, husband of Egeline de Valletort, in my opinion
>and that of Todd, was the brother of Sir Richard of Modbury (died 1338),
>husband of Elizabeth de Valletort.
>>3. Margaret, w/o Thomas Stonehouse. She had a great grandson,
>>William Bykebury, over 40 in 1422 (Otho's IPM). I think I recall
>>either you or Todd mentioning in one of the pre-1999 discussions
>>that it seemed unlikely he could be that old. But if Margaret were
>>the eldest child of of Oliver and Eglina, it should work fine. If
>>Wm. was b. ca. 1380, the eldest child of his mother Katherine, when
>>she was say, 17 (1363), and she was born when her father Thomas was
>>perhaps 25 (1338), and Thomas when his mother was 17, that gives
>>Margaret a tentative b.d. of 1321. Since brother Richard died in
>>1377, this will fit nicely. I assume that Thomas, Katherine and
>>William were each the eldest child in their family, since the
>>property is shown descending in that manner.
>3a. I agree with your assessment of the Stonehouse descent. Margaret was
>likely one of the eldest siblings and Richard among the youngest and born
>30 years apart. However, I have done no work on the Stonehouse family and
>cannot attest to the accuracy of the claims, though they are supported by
>Otho's IPM.
>>Now, is this William Bykebery the father of Elizabeth who married
>>John Champernoun, s/o Alexander? Vivian p. 162, says see p. 161,
>>but when I photocopied Vivian, I only copied 160 and 162 (it
>>figures!), since that followed the direct line I wanted. Anyway, I will
>>copy p. 161 when I get back to the FHC tomorrow night, but since Vivian
>>made such a mess of the Champernouns in general, I would like your opinion
>>on the Bykebury line as well.
>3b. Vivian, p. 161, does state Elizabeth, wife of John Champernoun, was
>the
>daughter of William Bigbery. I have done no work on this family and can
>only go by what appears in the IPM of Otho, which Vivian cites. From that,
>it does fit chronologically.
>>4. Now for the really difficult question--where does Joan Rauf and
>>her brood of Champernouns fit in (Otho's IPM)? From the way I read
>>it (and I've reread it over and over until my head spins), Joan's
>>husband was probably a John Champernoun (the one who received the
>>grant of lands in Oct. 1385?). He could be the John who Vivian
>>shows as the brother of Richard and Thomas. Or he could be the
>>John, s/o Richard and Emeline (Brankescombe). But either way, it
>>would only make him a cousin (removed) of Otho, so it seems
>>unlikely to me that Otho would end up with the lands in the first
>>place. If John were instead, a brother of Richard and Oliver (as
>>Todd I think suggested in an earlier post), then he could NOT be
>>the same John recieving the 1385 grant...
>>To make matters even more confusing, the abstract of Otho's IPM
>>which I have shows a pedigree (was this in the original or was it
>>surmised by the abstactor??) which gives a Thomas C. m. to a
>>daughter of Agnes Wymond; they in turn having a son Thomas m. to
>>Joan Rauf; said Thomas having brothers John and Richard, and having
>>sons John, Richard, Willim and Hugh. Help!
>4. There are many more Champernouns named in Otho's IPM. I had worked on
>trying to place them for quite some time, but had no success in doing so.
>There are all sorts of possibilities where more children have a place, but
>which belong where would require more work than I am willing to further
>invest. None of these "extra" Champernouns have left identifiable
>descendants. Todd seems to have an idea about this and I will be curious
>on where he believes they might fit.
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Ivor West
Kathie Weigel <azaz...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.BSI.3.96.99072...@usr08.primenet.com...
> >>The reason I bring this up, is because I am wondering if Oliver was
> >>married twice. In the account you give of Oliver's son Henry (m.
> >>Dionisia), you show Henry holding a manor by gift of Isolda de
> >>Cardinham. If Isolda was merely the sister of Henry's grandfather's
> >>sister-in-law, then why would she gift Henry with land?
> >1d. With regard to the gift of Isolda de Cardinham to Henry de
> >Champernoun,
> >in 1270, the parties involved in the fine were Hugh de Treverbin,
grandson
> >of Isolda de Cardinham, and Henry de Champernoun, grandson of Isolda's
> >sister Emma's husband Jordan's brother Henry. We don't know why Isolda
> >made a gift of these manors to Henry. I don't believe it was just
because
> >of the
> >foregoing relationship, which really is no relationship at all and the
fact
> >that there were some family ties may be coincidental with no bearing on
the
> >gift. This may have been because of some business arrangement.
Afterall,
> >why did Isolda not pass these manors on to her own descendants?
You may be looking in the wrong direction. Joan, wife of Henry's son
William de Champernoun, is shown by Benson, in his D&CNQ 18 article on
Ferrers of Bere Ferrers, as the daughter of Reginald de Ferrers and Margery
le Dennys and so the granddaughter of William de Ferrers and Isolda de
Cardinam. Isolda lived long enough to see her granddaughter Joan married to
William de Champernoun and so was, in effect, keeping it in the family by
passing the manor to her granddaughter's husband by way of his father Henry.
> > Iseult was the wife of Andrew Cardinham, who had died 1252-4,
> >and their heirs were their two daughters Emma, wife of Odo de Treverbin
and
> >Isolda, wife of Thomas de Tracy, then William de Ferrers.
I think you will find that Emma was not Andrew's daughter but his younger
brother Robert's. Robert de Cardinam married an Emma and had a daughter
Emma who married Odo de Treverbyn. (Cornwall Fines 56, 222, 241).
Ivor West