Royal ancestry: John Price of Jamestown
Paul K Davis
I have concluded that John Price, who came to Jamestown, Virginia in
1611, was a descendent of king Malcolm II of Scotland and of king Ethelred
"the unready" of England. This John Price is an ancestor of my paternal
grandmother, Dorotha Ellen Repass.
For nearly a century it has been claimed that this John Price was
descended from barons who signed the Magna Carta, however some aspects of
his ancestry have been the subject of divergent claims. I consulted GEDCOM
databases made public through the internet and found quite a few
discrepancies in what was said about who his ancestors were. I have
compared these, eliminated those which could be disproved, and found one,
by Jackie Watson, remaining. I have checked its conclusions using
generally reliable library sources and citations of primary evidence, and
concluded that it is indeed correct. I found that one line in this
ancestry, when traced further, led to kings Malcolm II of Scotland and
Ethelred II of England.
Below I present this line, with comments where it seems appropriate,
followed by a list of the important sources.
John Price [1583/4 - 1628/30] was son of Richard Price and Ursula. John
has often been listed as son of Thomas Price, vicar of St. Chad's in
Shrewsbury, without citation of primary evidence, but comparison of his
signature on a petition of the Virginia House of Burgesses with the
signature on a Welsh indenture shows he was son of Richard Price, of
Manafon, Montgomeryshire, and his wife Ursula. Close estimates from both
sides of the Atlantic also agree concerning his age.
Richard was son of Richard ap John Price and Elizabeth Herbert. Richard
has often been listed as son of Richard ap John Price of Newtown, but there
was also a Richard ap John Price of Glan Meheli, and Burke lists the
Richard of Newtown as having died without issue. Furthermore, Richard the
father of the immigrant John Price is shown to have an association with the
Glan Meheli branch of the Price family by common attendance of children at
the same school in Shrewsbury. The above cited indenture shows Richard,
the father of immigrant John, to have had a brother named Thomas, and the
Visitation shows Richard ap John Price of Glan Meheli, to have had younger
sons name Richard and Thomas. This Thomas is generally believed to be the
one who was vicar of St. Chad's. While there is another Price family of
Manafon, that Richard has a wife not named Ursula, and his son John
evidently raised a family in Britain, not Virginia. Immigrant John was
listed in the school records as son of a gentlemen, and the Glan Meheli
family was such. Manafon is a bit north of Glan Meheli, and both are in
the sector of Montgomeryshire which borders the portion of Shropshire
containing Shrewsbury. I conclude we must accept this match, and reject
the Newtown claim with its possible Magna Carta connections.
Elizabeth Herbert [- 1574], the grandmother of immigrant John, was
daughter of Richard Herbert [1468/70 - 1539] and Anne verch David. The
Visitation pedigree, signed by her husband Richard and eldest son Edward,
clearly shows this. This Richard was a son of Richard Herbert [1412 -
1469], of Coldbrook, and Margred verch Thomas. The signed Visitation
pedigree clearly shows this. These relationships are also shown in the
generally accepted pedigree of the Herberts as given in, for example,
Burke's Landed Gentry, latest edition, which also gives further Herbert
ancestry.
Margred was the sister of the important Welshman, Sir Rhys ap Thomas [-
1525], whose ancestry has been well studied. Their mother was Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John Griffith [- 1471] of Wichnor in Staffordshire. John's
parents were Thomas Griffith [1377 - 1431] and Anne Blount. Thomas' father
was Rhys ap Griffith the younger [- 1381]. Rhys' parents were Rhys ap
Griffith the elder [- 1356] and Joan Somerville [- 1376].
Joan was the daughter of Philip de Somerville [- 1356], who was the son
of Robert Somerville and Isabel Merlay.
Isabel was the daughter of Roger de Merlay III, the son of Roger de
Merlay II, the son of Roger de Merlay I [- 1188], the son of Ralph de
Merlay [- 1160] and Juliana of Dunbar.
Juliana was the daughter of Gospatrick [- 1138], earl of Dunbar, who was
the son of Gospatrick [-1075], earl of Northumberland. He was the son of
Maldred [1003 - 1045], lord of Carlisle and Allerton, and Edith of
Northumberland. Maldred's mother, Bethoc, was a daughter of Malcolm II,
king of Scotland, and Edith's mother, Elgiva, was a daughter of Ethelred
II, the "unready", king of Anglo-Saxon England.
John Price, the Jamestown immigrant, has many other interesting
ancestors, including the Spanish nobelwoman Sanchia de Ayala and various
Welsh princes.
A general list of sources is appended here. If you wish a more detailed
explanation of the evidence or reasoning for any of these connections,
please contact me.
Sources:
"Ancestors and Descendants of John Price, Immigrant to Virginia
1610-11", compiled by Vina Chandler Price, Gateway Press, Baltimore, 1988.
The relevant material is in Appendix I, which the author specifically
states is not her own research and which she has not checked. It correctly
makes John the immigrant to be son of Richard of Manafon, but incorrectly
makes him son of Richard of Newtown.
"Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists", 7th edition, by
Frederick Lewis Weis and Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., 1992. See line 42 for
the Merlay ancestry.
"Arnold Henrie", by Jackie Watson,
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=:2125498. This
database is generally correct, unlike many others.
"Burke's American Families with British Ancestry", excerpted from the
Landed Gentry of 1939. It incorrectly makes John the immigrant to be son
of Thomas the vicar, but correctly traces Thomas's ancestry, which is
useful because John the immigrant was actually Thomas's nephew.
"Burke's Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies", 2nd edition, 1844. It shows
Richard of Newtown to have died without issue.
"Burke's Landed Gentry", 18th edition, 1969-1972. It shows the correct
Herbert genealogy (except maybe the very early generations).
"Heraldic Visitations of Wales and Part of the Marches; between the
years 1586 and 1613, under the authority of Clarencieux and Norroy, two
kings at arms, by Lewys Dwnn, deputy herald at arms", transcribed and
edited by Samuel Rush Meyrick, The Welsh MSS Society, Llandovery, 1846. It
is generally correct for the sixteenth century when it was compiled, but
also includes legendary ancestries back to Adam and Eve.
"History and Antiquities of Staffordshire", by the Rev. Stebbing Shaw,
B.D., F.A.S., London, 1798. The section on the manor of Wichnor is very
helpful.
"Sir Rhys ap Thomas and his Family", by Ralph A. Griffiths, University
of Wales Press, Cardiff, 1993. A quality current in-depth study.
"The Visitation of the County of Warwick in the Year 1619", taken by
William Camden, Clarencieux King of Arms, edited by John Fetherston,
F.S.A., Harleian Society vol 12, London, 1877. See the pedigree of the
Gruffeth family.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
Nathaniel Taylor
pkd...@earthlink.net ("Paul K Davis") wrote:
> I have concluded that John Price, who came to Jamestown, Virginia in
> 1611, was a descendent of king Malcolm II of Scotland and of king Ethelred
> "the unready" of England.
>
> Below I present this line, with comments where it seems appropriate,
> followed by a list of the important sources.
>
> John Price [1583/4 - 1628/30] was son of Richard Price and Ursula. John
> has often been listed as son of Thomas Price, vicar of St. Chad's in
> Shrewsbury, without citation of primary evidence, but comparison of his
> signature on a petition of the Virginia House of Burgesses with the
> signature on a Welsh indenture shows he was son of Richard Price, of
> Manafon, Montgomeryshire, and his wife Ursula. Close estimates from both
> sides of the Atlantic also agree concerning his age.
This is an interesting piece of evidence regarding the identity of a
colonial immigrant: similarity of extant signatures on both sides of the
water. Are this, and the closeness in age, the only evidences for this
identity? Is your line proposing this identity of the immigrant's
parents for the first time, or just the particular royal descent for the
apparent parents of the immigrant?
Is anyone aware of other immigrant identities which are only made on the
basis of similarity of two extant signatures?
Nat Taylor
Paul K Davis
combination as a whole is.
The evidence for identifying John Price, the Virginia immigrant, is:
1. a match in signatures between his and that on the indenture signed by
John, son of Richard and Ursula, witnessed by Thomas brother of Richard,
which was reported in the appendix to Vina Chandler Price's book.
2. a match of birthdates between his (40 years old at muster in 1624) and
that of a John Price, son of Richard, gentleman, of Manafon, entering
Shrewsbury school in 1600 (typically at age of 15 or 16 based on other
entrants), also reported in the appendix mentioned.
3. that the immigrant could evidently sign his name, which was uncommon,
and indicated he had attended school.
4. that the immigrant served in the Virginia House of Burgesses, indicating
a search among gentry was sensible.
My identification agrees with that in the appendix mentioned, and is
contrary to that in Burke's American Families, in which the immigrant is
identified with the son of Thomas Price of Shrewsbury. Burke cites no
evidence.
I live in Fremont California, and would very much like to see these
documents myself, which are apparently all in England.
The evidence for identifying Richard Price, father of the immigrant, is:
1. he is identified as a gentleman in his son's school admission,
indicating a search of the visitations was sensible.
2. he has a brother named Thomas, which occurs in the Price family of Glan
Meheli in the visitations.
3. a John Price of Glan Meheli entered the same school a generation
earlier, and the visitation also shows this Richard and Thomas to have had
a brother named John.
4. all other Price families found in either the visitation of Shropshire or
of Montgomeryshire do not show appropriate entries for an identification.
In this case my identification agrees with the next generation in Burke,
and is contrary to that in the Vina Chandler Price book's appendix.
Neither source cites evidence at this point.
The web database I cited by Jackie Watson had both of these
identifications, and is where I got the idea. This database cites sources,
but does not alway explain a line of reasoning. It also shows considerable
further ancestry, but does not display the two royal ancestries I have
claimed. At the two Rhys ap Griffith's is suffers from the common error of
an erroneous placement of the Stackpole heiress. See previous
correspondence by Paul Reed for the untangling of that mess.
I am not aware of any other claims of matched signatures, but then, I've
only explored my own lines (and a few friends), and thus have a limited
range of experience.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
> [Original Message]
> From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Date: 3/28/2004 4:06:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Royal ancestry: John Price of Jamestown
Nathaniel Taylor
> The evidence for identifying John Price, the Virginia immigrant...
Common sense suggests you may have something here, though it's worth
running elements of it to earth. What does the visitation say about
your target person? Is John, son of Richard, shown at all on a
visitation (or is the visitation only earlier than he would appear)? If
he appears, is it with no comment, or a note of d. young, or some such?
And why does Vina Chandler Price end up looking elsewhere for the
grandfather of the immigrant? Does she believe the Shrewsbury Richard &
John belong to a different Price family, or elsewhere in the Glan Meheli
one?
Finally, if Vina Chandler Price's book cites the sources of the
documents with the signatures, you should be able to request copies.
Nat Taylor
Paul K Davis
Thanks for continuing to poke.
The Visitation text to which I refer is near the bottom of page 315 of
volume one of Meyrick's edition of Dwn. It is captioned "The Pedigrees of
Richd. ap John ap Meredith, one of the Gentlemen of the Parish of Kerie".
The third paragraph begins - "The said Rich\d maried Elizabeth, y\e younger
daughter of Sir Rich\d Herbert, K\t son to S\t Rich\d Herbert, K\t
descended of Colebrook. They had issue Edward, James, John, Charles,
Thomas, Rich\d, Marg\t, and Mary." Further information is provided on the
ancestry of Richard Price and on the wives and children of his oldest son,
Edward. The section concludes "Testified by Rich\d Jno. Meredith and
Edward Price, vi. die Junii, Anno R. R. Elizabeth xxviii Anno Domini 1586."
Since two children are given by Edward's first wife, and none by his second
wife, I would assume the two children were young in 1586. This makes them
probably just a little bit older than my immigrant, who was apparently born
in 1584, as would be expected if they were cousins, with my immigrant's
father being a younger brother.
The appendix in Vina Chandler Price's book gives no explanation of the
connection it makes in the earliery generation. Here are excerpts from
this appendix -
"The following treatise was not researched by this writer and therefore,
the data cannot be personally verified nor offered as proven fact. Mrs.
Margaret Scruggs Carruth, a descendant of John Price, conducted the
research on the ancestry of John Price in the late 1920s. ... Mrs.
Carruth engaged a professional genealogist in England, one Miss Kett. ...
Miss Kett died before 1930 and Mr. H. E. Forrest of Shrewsbury, Wales was
retained to continue the search. ...
"Rhys, who was a squire of the body to Edward IV, ... His descendants
were known as Price (i.e. ap Rhys). He had two sons: Thomas and Meredith,
both of whom founded families." {The former are the Prices of Newtown, the
latter of Glan Meheli. The text recites the next few generations of the
Newtown Prices.} ...
"Matthew Price also had a son, Richard Price I of Newtown, who had sons
Rev. Thomas Price, Vicar of St. Chads, b. 1552, d. 1620 and, Richard Price
II, Gentleman of Manavon, Tanner, who had by his wife Ursula Middleton, two
sons, John Price of whom presently [the immigrant], and William Price.
[Dwynn, Vol., 2, pp. 330, 335 and 348]." {The references cited here are
all to Middletons, without any Ursula among them!}
"John Pryce, was described as son and heir of Richard Pryce in an
indenture in 1610-11 from Richard Pryce of Manavon, Montgomery County,
Gentlemen, and Ursula Pryce, his wife to ___ Robinson. Thomas Pryce,
brother of Richard Price II, was one of the witnesses. [Indenture, British
Museum, A.D.D. Charter 1036, PC]. The signature on this indenture
corresponds in every detail with the signature of John Price on the
Petition to the King sent from Virginia in 1625-26 when John Price signed
as a member of the Burgess. [Public Record Office, London, England, C.O.
1/3, 17276, PC]." ...
"This John Pryce was registered at the Shrewsbury School as John Pryce,
gen. F. (i.e. 'son of a gentleman') 2 June 1600, two shillings sixpence.
This was the entrance register. Two shillings sixpence were paid by those
students not living in the town of Shrewsbury. Pupils generally entered at
the age of fifteen or thereabouts. The three sons of Rev. Thomas [Pryce]
of St. Chads entered in the following order: Daniel, Samson, John and each
paid two pence because they were 'oppidans', (i.e. living in town). The
John of this group, entering in 1603, therefore born about 1588 or 1589."
...
... "Richard of Glan Mahli, whose son John was admitted in 1571" {This
would be John, the brother of Edward, Richard, Thomas, etc.}
I notice now that an additional piece of suggestive evidence is that the
indenture was signed within a year before John Price immigrated to
Jamestown.
I suspect the orignial reason for connecting the immigrant to the
Newtown branch of Rhys's descendants is simply that it was better known,
having produced a baronet, than the Glan Meheli branch.
A further perplexity is that no reason is given for "Middleton" as the
maiden surname of Ursula. Many web databases give Ursula's father as
"David Middleton", but I have not found any statement of any reason for
this.
-- PKD [Paul K Davis, pkd...@earthlink.net]
> [Original Message]
> From: Nathaniel Taylor <nathani...@earthlink.net>
> To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Date: 3/28/2004 6:51:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Royal ancestry: John Price of Jamestown
>