"Murzuphlos"
GeeTee
Occasionally, he is quoted as Alexius V, Doukas "Murzuphlos".
Was he a member of the Doukas family?
Alexius V was the second husband of Eudoxia Angelos, married 1204.
Allegedly he died the same year 1204, therefore I assume they did not have
any children.
Was Alexius married before? Did he have any children from another wife?
Any bastards? Why is so little known about him?
Anyone with answers?
regards
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
Stewart, Peter
> From: GeeTee [mailto:eac...@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2002 9:16
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: "Murzuphlos"
>
>
> Who was Alexius V, "Murzuphlos" ? Who were his parents?
> Occasionally, he is quoted as Alexius V, Doukas "Murzuphlos".
> Was he a member of the Doukas family?
His surname (or sobriquet) Mourtzouphlos is a mystery - this is taken to
mean One Eye-Brow. I can't remember any known relationship to the Doukai,
although I will look this up in the prosopographic study by Demetrios
Polemis if you are interested in what he said (you have cast doubt on his
expertise before).
> Alexius V was the second husband of Eudoxia Angelos, married 1204.
> Allegedly he died the same year 1204, therefore I assume they
> did not have any children.
They were married on 12 April 1204 and Alexios V was executed late in the
same year, probably in November.
>
> Was Alexius married before?
Yes, once.
> Did he have any children from
> another wife?
> Any bastards? Why is so little known about him?
The last question is a puzzle - or the preceding ones, if you are already
aware that very little is known about this man. What can be known about any
medieval figure depends on records surviving today, or at least available to
trusted historians in earlier centuries.
Peter Stewart
GeeTee
> aware that very little is known about this man. What can be known about
any
> medieval figure depends on records surviving today, or at least available
to
> trusted historians in earlier centuries.
The fact that I know little and literature I know does not say much about
him, does not mean that others who have access to new information do not
know more.
There is one family in Greece that mentions Alexius V as their ancestor. If
he did not have any children than that's wrong, he couldn't be.
It is also surprising that he managed to become an Emperor without anyone
knowing/reporting who his parents were, and that at a time when so many
Historians/writers were in Constantinople. (following the Crusade, etc).
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
Stewart, Peter
> From: GeeTee [mailto:eac...@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2002 11:18
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: "Murzuphlos"
>
>
> The fact that I know little and literature I know does not
> say much about him, does not mean that others who have
> access to new information do not know more.
Indeed - so the question "Why is so little known about him?" was really an
existential one, "Why do I kow so little?" I have frequently wondered this
myself.
There is no new information about Mourtzouphlos, unless this has
materialised since 1992 when Alexis Savvides listed none in his
*Bibliographical Advances in Byzantine Prosopography of the Middle and Later
Periods*, _Medieval Prosopography_ 13 (1992).
> There is one family in Greece that mentions Alexius V as
> their ancestor. If he did not have any children than that's
> wrong, he couldn't be.
Whether or not he had any children, he has no known descendants, and that
family in Greece are kidding themselves - there is certainly no possibility
of a connected descent over the 250 years following the death of Alexios V:
according to _Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit_,
Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Byzantinistik I, compiled E Trapp &
others (Vienna, 1976-95), three men occur with the name during that period,
and they are not known to be related. These were Isaakios Doukas
Mourtzouphlos (apparently a nickname rather than surname with him, as with
Alexios V), primikerios in Nicaea around the middle of the thirteenth
century; Manuel Mourtzouphlos, a retainer of Empress Eirene (Iolanta of
Montferrat) in 1313; and Andronikos Mourtzouphlos, a priest in Thessalonika
in 1374.
>
> It is also surprising that he managed to become an Emperor
> without anyone knowing/reporting who his parents were,
> and that at a time when so many Historians/writers were in
> Constantinople. (following the Crusade, etc).
Not entirely - his first wife was a daughter of (Euphemios?) Philokales, in
whose favour Alexios deprived the historian Choniates of office. Other
Greeks, including his second father-in-law Emperor Alexios III Angelos, and
the Frankish chroniclers were hardly better disposed toward the man.
According to Demetrios Polemis [in _The Doukai: A Contribution to Byzantine
Prosopography_ (London, 1968)], very little information about Mourtzouphlos
prior to 28 January 1204, when he became emperor, has survived. He had
earlier held the dignity of protovestiarios and was evidently well enough
esteemed by Alexios IV Angelos (the cousin of his wife-to-be Eudokia), at
least until he deposed that gentleman and had him murdered. Beware of Greeks
bearing good reputations, perhaps, whether or not they are brandishing
gifts....
His own reign lasted just a few months, and he fled Constantinople on the
evening of its fall to the marauding crusaders in April 1204. I was mistaken
in supposing that he had married Eudokia on the same fateful day - Polemis
says they escaped together and were married at Mosynopolis shortly
afterwards. No more is said about the first wife. Alexios III Angelos,
Eudokia's father, apparently hated his son-in-law and had him blinded in his
bath. Late in the same year he was captured by crusaders and punished for
treason against his predecessor - this was said to be at the bidding of
Enrico Dandolo, so maybe it takes one traitor to know another, as with
thieves. He was thrown from a high column to his death, perhaps late in
November 1204. Polemis says that a couple of miniatures of this man have
been preserved.
Not too surprising then that no-one bothered to detail his ancestry or any
offspring - he is not believed to have been a Doukas by birth, and Choniates
says that his name came from shaggy brows which met over the bridge of his
nose. The surname of later Mourtzouphloi may have been derived from sharing
the same feature, or a toponym. If any of them had daughters, I wonder what
feminine form of his grotesquely masculine name they might have used.
Peter Stewart
GeeTee
> family in Greece are kidding themselves - there is certainly no
possibility
> of a connected descent over the 250 years following the death of Alexios
V:
> according to _Prosopographisches Lexikon der Palaiologenzeit_,
> Veröffentlichungen der Kommission für Byzantinistik I, compiled E Trapp &
> others (Vienna, 1976-95), three men occur with the name during that
period,
> and they are not known to be related. These were Isaakios Doukas
> Mourtzouphlos (apparently a nickname rather than surname with him, as with
> Alexios V), primikerios in Nicaea around the middle of the thirteenth
> century; Manuel Mourtzouphlos, a retainer of Empress Eirene (Iolanta of
> Montferrat) in 1313; and Andronikos Mourtzouphlos, a priest in
Thessalonika
> in 1374.
I agree with you on that. The Eric Trapp publication you mentioned is used
and the
names Emmanuel and Andronikos are mentioned.
It is suggested that the basis of the name is the word "MOURTZA" (witch does
not sound Greek to me)
which was used frequently before and after 800. It is suggested that the
Latin names "Mauricius"
and "Moro" have similar meaning.
It is suggested that the word "Mourtza" was used to describe "whimsical" or
"odd" people as well
as "dark skin" people (dark Skin =brunette).
North Italians used the word "Mori" the French "Maurice" and the English
"Morris" or "Moore".
It is suggested, that the word "Mourtzos" passed from south Europe to East
Roman Empire and
it did become a name. A typical example is Alexius V, Mourtzouphlos, who
was "named"
Mortzouphlos because of his Whimsical character and odd behaviour.
To cut the story short, the current families are mainly called: Mourtzanos,
Mourtzinis, Mourtzanakis,
Mourtzinos, etc.
I think there are many other options. For example there was(is?) an island
in Venice
called Murcano. The glassfactories used to be there before the artist
migrated to Murano.
Murcano and Mourtzanos are very close. etc. etc.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GeeTee [mailto:eac...@ozemail.com.au]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2002 11:18
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: "Murzuphlos"
> >
> >
> > The fact that I know little and literature I know does not
> > say much about him, does not mean that others who have
> > access to new information do not know more.
>
> Indeed - so the question "Why is so little known about him?" was really an
> existential one, "Why do I kow so little?" I have frequently wondered this
> myself.
>
> There is no new information about Mourtzouphlos, unless this has
> materialised since 1992 when Alexis Savvides listed none in his
> *Bibliographical Advances in Byzantine Prosopography of the Middle and
Later
> Periods*, _Medieval Prosopography_ 13 (1992).
>
> > There is one family in Greece that mentions Alexius V as
> > their ancestor. If he did not have any children than that's
> > wrong, he couldn't be.
>
>
> >
Marin-Guzman
(proclaimed Emperor Feb. 1204) as a strong and daring adventurer named
Alexius Ducas.
He also translates his sobriquet Murzuphlus as derived from his "shaggy
eyebrows".
"The Historians History of the World", London 1908, ed. Henry Smith
Williams, calls him:
"... a prince of the house of Ducas" and says he had insinuated himself into
the favour and confidence of Alexius, who trusted him with the office of
chamberlain, and tinged his buskins with the colours of royalty."
It also implicates him in Alexius IV's death.
Pedro Marin-Guzman
==========================================================================
GeeTee
Alexius V, "Mourzouphlos" was a member of the Angelos family.
3. Demetrios Thessalonica King of ANGELUS (b.1205;d.1235/1239)
3. Constance ANGELUS (b.1180;d.1240) sp: Ottocar I PREMSYL King Bohemia
(d.1230)
3. Bela St Omer Lord Thebes ANGELUS (c.1240) sp: Bonne NOTKNOWN (m.1220)
3. Byzantine Emperor ANGELUS Alexius V Mourtzouphlas (b.1182;d.1204) sp:
ANGELUS Eudocia
3. William St Omer ANGELUS sp: Pernel De Lacy LACY
3. Miss2 ANGELUS sp: Stephen Milutin NEMANYICH King Serbia (b.1281;d.1321)
sp: Wife1 COMNENA Maria
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"GeeTee" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:hTbL8.4912$3t6.2...@ozemail.com.au...
Pierre Aronax
Stewart, Peter <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> a écrit dans le message :
BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GeeTee [mailto:eac...@ozemail.com.au]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2002 11:18
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: "Murzuphlos"
<...>
> These were Isaakios Doukas
> Mourtzouphlos (apparently a nickname rather than surname with him, as with
> Alexios V),
On the contrary, the conjunction of the two names Doukas and Mourtzouphlos
tend to substantiate that Mourtzouphlos was indeed in the both cases a
patronimical name, not a surname, and that the two men were related by
birth. The testimony of Choniatès about the imperial browns is not realy an
objection: there are other examples of a surname explained as a personal
nickname by historiographical surname when we know in fact from other
sources it was already used before.
Pierre Aronax
> primikerios in Nicaea around the middle of the thirteenth
> century; Manuel Mourtzouphlos, a retainer of Empress Eirene (Iolanta of
> Montferrat) in 1313; and Andronikos Mourtzouphlos, a priest in
Thessalonika
> in 1374.
<...>