Roosa (Rosa) Gens Nostra Article That Outlines Possible Royal Descent

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Good Day,

I noticed a couple of archived threads from 10-15 years ago that mention a couple of the forum users that descend from the Roosa (Rosa) family in Gelderland through Aldert Heymanse Roosa. I also descend from the Roosa’s, but through the branch of Heymen Gijsbertsz’s (Aldert Heymanse Roosa’s father) brother Alert Gijsbertsz, through his daughter Mariken Alerts Roosa who married Govert Hendricks Jansz van Holten, kleermaker, schoolmeester en secretaris van Deil.

I am not sure if this has been discussed (I couldn’t find reference in the archives), but there is a very possible line of royal descent connected to the Roosa’s and discussed in the Gens Nostra article written by Engel Roza linked below. I have included both the Dutch version with images and charts, and the English version which was translated by Valentine van Zee. The line proposed by the author runs through the van Heukelum and van Culemborg families, with the closest connection to a royal ancestor (connections appear to be present through both the van Heukelum’s and van Culemborg’s) appearing to be Jan II van Avesnes, Graaf van Henegouwen, Holland en Zeeland via his illegitimate daughter Aleida van Henegouwen, Vrouwe van Wisseker.


The issue of Gens Nostra that the author of the website posted the article from is: Gens Nostra 62 (2007) pp. 147-180


The link to the Dutch version of the article published in Gens Nostra is:

http://www.oud-ophemert.nl/herwijnen/Rosa_GN.pdf

The link to the English translation of the article without charts, etc is:

http://www.oud-ophemert.nl/herwijnen/Roza_GN_Eng.html

I am curious to hear thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Jordan Vandenberg.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Jordan ~

Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.

As a double descendant of the 17th Century New World immigrant, Aldert Heymanse Roosa, I suppose that means we are distantly related to one another, as you say you descend from Aldert's uncle.

The article on the Roosa family you cited mentions remote noble connections in the Roosa ancestry through the van Culemborg family.

Below is a weblink to a published account in the book, Geschiedkundige beschrijving van Tholen en Omstreken (1897), pp. 154-165, concerning Wolfert II van Borsele [died 1317] and his wife, Aleide of Hainault, illegitimate daughter of Jean (or Jan) d'Avesnes, Count of Hainault, Holland, and Zeeland, lord of Friesland [died 1304].

https://books.google.com/books?id=LXDTAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA154

The above account mentions Wolfert and Aleide's daughter, Sibylle, wife of Jan van Cuylenburgh, which lady I assume from your comments is ancestral to the Roosa family.

Elsewhere I note that the extended ancestry of Wolfert II van Borsele and his wife, Aleide of Hainault, can be found in a database at the following weblink:

http://genealogy.richardremme.com/tng/getperson.php?personID=I31411&tree=tree01

The database indicates that Wolfert II van Borsele descends from David I, King of Scots, and Isabel de Vermandois, whereas his wife, Aleide, descends from the same parties, plus William the Conqueror, King of England, King Stephen of England, Louis VII, King of France, and Eleanor of Aquitaine.

By any chance, do you know the descent from Sibylle van Borsele down to the Roosa family?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Douglas,

Thank you for your response, and for the links that you posted. It is interesting that we are distantly related to this family, but you through the New World immigrant Aldert Heymanse Roosa and I through one of his uncles due to my Dutch father’s ancestry.

This is the line from Sibylle van Borsele to our common Roosa ancestors. This line is outlined on the charts found on pages 15-17 of the Dutch version of the article. The van Heukelum line is also outlined there.

Sibylle van Borsele - Jan van Culemborg
Wolfert van Culemborg – Henrica ______
Johan Wolfertsz van Culemborg - Jnkvr. Aernt van Rosendaele
Jutta van Culemborg - Otto van Heukelum
Otto Ottensz van Heukelum - ___________
Jutta van Heukelum - Goert Reyersz Sterck
Gijsbert Goertzen, kerkmeester - Maria Alerts Dircxsen (our common ancestors)

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Jordan.

[Jordan Vandenberg]

Below is a link to a webpage dedicated to the Roosa genealogy. It provides links to some publications about the Roosa ancestry, and a citation for a book written about the Roosa's entitled, De Ro(o)sa's van Herwijnen, by E. Rosa and published in 2004.

Just under the links on the webpage is a Roosa descendant report from Reyer Goertsz. and his wife Lijsbeth Jansse Sterck. The entry below them is of particular interest, because it provides additional commentary and source material for Jutta van Heukelum van Rosendael. I haven't had a chance to follow up on the sources provided in the passage to see whether or not any are accessible, or if any are available online.

Below is the link to the webpage.

http://daktari.antenna.nl/rosa.htm

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 8:36:22 AM UTC-5, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:

[Jordan Vandenberg]

I have located and linked below the two other Gens Nostra articles written about the Roosa’s cited in Engel Roza’s article.

"Het Geslacht Rosa" by Evert van Alphen

http://www.ancestors.nl/Gens%20Nostra/1965.pdf (Roosa article starts on page 22)

"Geslacht Boom der familie Roosa” uit 1738" by E.W. Treffers

http://www.ancestors.nl/Gens%20Nostra/1982.pdf (Roosa article starts on page 329)

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 8:36:22 AM UTC-5, Jordan Vandenberg wrote:

[Hans Vogels]

Hello Jordan,

I filed the Gens Nostra article a couple of weeks ago. It did not convince me then, and it still does not now I have reread it. The author admits several times that there is no hard evidence, only indications that might point towards something I would call wishful thinking.

There is no evidence that Ghijsbert Goirtsen (living 1579-1615), the ancestor of the family that started to call themselves Ro(o)sa from 1638 onwards, is the son of a Goert Reyers(en) Sterck and his wife Jutta van Hoiclum. The author suggests that this couple had a son Ghijsbert and a daughter that married a Gerit Sandersen. The last mentioned Gerit did have a daughter with name Judith and there might indeed have been a family relationship between Ghijsbert Goirtsen en Gerit Sanders but that need not be through a descent from Goert Reyers(en) Sterck and his wife Jutta van Hoiclum.

Another supposing building block was the fact that in 1580 Gerit was in the possession of land that previously was owned by the heirs of Goert Reyers(en). That could be the case but he could as well have bought it from the heirs.

The wife of Goert Reyers(en) Sterck was named Van Hoiclum (Heukelum), a name that suggests a descent of a junior branch of a junior branch of a nobel family. One might expect names like Otto and Jan popping up in de descending family of Jutta and Goert. No such thing shows.

One might expect trough naming customs that an alias or nickname like Van Heukelom/Hoiclum might pop up in or without a combination of the before mentioned names like Otto and Jan. No such thing shows.

Goert Reyers(en) went through life with the alias Sterck. He wore so to speak the family name/nickname of his mothers family. One would expect to see it being continued in one or more descendants of his. No such thing shows.

Instead, a case was made that the new family name Ro(o)sa originated as a distorted echo of the name Van Rosendael(e), an alias/nickname that Jutta van Hoiclum could have carried. The suggestion is made that the married Jutta van Hoiclum (1549) is identical with the joffer miss) Jut van Huekelum genant Rosendaell (1540). That could very well be but the author offers no certainty.

This joffer could easily have been a another granddaughter of a joffer Jut (married to an Otto van Hoeckelum) daughter of Johan van Culemborgh and joffer Aernt van Rosendael, through another son (of Otto an Jut). And why would grandmother joffer Jut, being the only daughter and heir of Johan van Culemborgh, be named Van Rosendael, as only her mother came from the Van Rosendael family?

The family of the lords of Culemborg (and their junior branches) was important enough to have their family name carried further even as an alias through a female chain. So we find no joffer “Jut van Culemborg” but instead a joffer Jut van Huekelum genant Rosendaell with only the assumption that she was the granddaughter of the couple Otto van Hoeckelum and Jut van Culemborg.

When in the 17th century a member of the Ro(o)sa family had to choose arms for his family he came up with three roses! That’s astonishing when – if this descent was known and true - he could have easily used elements from the family Van Heukelum, Van Culemborg or Van Rosendael to incorporate them in his arms. No such thing!

Lastly can be remarked that the author narrates that in the early 18th century within the family nobody knew where the family name or their origin came from. That does not support a noble descent as in my experience one such tradition within the family usually is cherished and embellished.

Hans Vogels




Op zaterdag 11 februari 2017 14:36:22 UTC+1 schreef Jordan Vandenberg: