Re: Henry Whitfield Genealogy on BYU website

[lma...@att.net]

On Sep 5, 3:46 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH25&CISOPTR...

If youre interested in notable descendants of Edmund Hawes of Mass.,
a recent one is Sarah Palin:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~battle/palin.htm
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~battle/heath.htm

She has other colonial ancestors of royal descent
including: Edward Raynsford, Audrey (Barlow) Almy,
Dr. Richard Palgrave, and Rev. Peter Bulkeley.
She descends from several Mayflower passengers,
including Brewster, Howland, Hopkins, Samson, Tilley and Warren.

Leslie

[lma...@att.net]

On Sep 7, 1:58 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > She has other colonial ancestors of royal descent
> > including: Edward Raynsford, Audrey (Barlow) Almy,
> > Dr. Richard Palgrave, and Rev. Peter Bulkeley.
> > She descends from several Mayflower passengers,
> > including Brewster, Howland, Hopkins, Samson, Tilley and Warren.
>
> > Leslie
>

> Gary Roberts will have a field day with this.
>
> If John M. suddenly drops dead, we could have a Hawes descendant as
> prez. (I'm* excited .... *not).

Perhaps of interest.
The will of Henry Vanner, Alderman of the City of Canterbury,
mentions cousin Joyce wife of Nicholas Butler of Ashford,
daughter of Richard Baker deceased, and her son Henry.

Leslie

[lma...@att.net]

On Sep 21, 11:49 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps of interest.
> > The will of Henry Vanner, Alderman of the City of Canterbury,
> > mentions cousin Joyce wife of Nicholas Butler of Ashford,
> > daughter of Richard Baker deceased, and her son Henry.
>
> > Leslie
>

> Thanks. This should be of interest to all descendants of the Butlers
> of Martha's Vineyards, from immigrant Nicholas Butler and his wife
> Joyce.
>
> Is it possible Richard Baker's wife was a sister of Alderman Vanner of
> Canterbury?
>
> Burial records for Henry Vanner and his wife, "Mistris Vrsula," at St.
> George's, Canterbury:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=p4gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA185&dq=alderman+he...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=p4gUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA185&dq=alderman+he...

Yes, Baker's wife was probably Vanner's sister, but I havent found the
marriage record that would prove it.
Henry's sister Joan Vanner of Canterbury also left a will, but it
doesnt say much.
Another person mentioned in Henry Vanner's will is a relative in
Buckinghamshire.

Leslie

[drbbo...@googlemail.com]

It's is possible that Richard Baker had a first wife who was sister of Hy Vanner but I don't see evidence of that.

Richard Baker's known wife was Margaret Merry dau of Christopher Merry (d1610 Ashford) & his ___ wife (name not known who d1611 Ashford). After Richard's death in 1604 his wife, Margaret (nee Merry), remarried John Harker, a miller of Ashford.

Joyce's sister Mary Baker b1604 Ashford was married to Thomas Boulding (my direct line). This is not the Thomas Boulding when went to Virginia in the Swan.

Henry Vanner was married to Ursula Rooke in 1575 Mersham.

Ursula Rooke was of daughter of Lawrence and Ursula (nee Scott) Rooke. Sir Reginald Scott (see Kent Visitions 1619) was Ursula's father.

Title: Ecclesiastical cause papers
Reference: DCb/J/J/50/223
Description:
Plaintiff: John HARKER sen & Nich BUTLER exors; Defendant: Ursula VANNER rel; Documents: Alleg & sent; Case: Test Hy VANNER St Geo Cant
Date: 21 Jul 1631
Held by: Canterbury Cathedral Archives, not available at The National Archives

Nicholas Butler, as you know was married to Joyce Baker (2nd marriage). John Harker (as noted above) was married to Joyce's mother, Margaret so they must be closely related to Vanner. I wonder if Margeret Merry's mother was a Vanner?

Does anyone have Henry & Ursula Vanner's wills? I have found extracts only

[leslie...@gmail.com]

I checked the marriage index for East Kent,
which is available on Findmypast.
There is no entry for Christopher Merry's marriage,
and no marriage record for Richard Baker and Margaret Merry.

The index for East Kent wills shows that the surname
Merry is very rare in the region. So they may have moved in
from somewhere else.

Most of the wills for eastern Kent are available on Familysearch.org.
However, you need to have a family search account, and you need
to be at one of the centers to look at those records.

Leslie

[shp...@gmail.com]

Leslie,

If the father of Richard Baker, father of Joyce Baker, wife of Nicholas Butler, was Thomas Baker of Whittingham Hall, Suffolk, and Leyton, Essex, then -- unless I'm mistaken -- Joyce descends from Edward I, King of England, and Eleanor of Castile, as follows:
Edward I, King of England = Eleanor of Castile
Joan of Acre = Gilbert de Clare, 3rd Earl of Gloucester
Eleanor de Clare = Hugh le Despenser, Baron le Despenser
Isabel le Despenser = Richard FitzAlan, 10th Earl of Arundel
Edmund FitzAlan of Arundel = Sibyl de Montagu
Philippa FitzAlan = Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite
Elizabeth Cergeaux = Sir William de Marney
Anne Marney = Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron in East Horndon
Sir William Tyrrell = Eleanor Darcy
Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon = Beatrix Cokayne
Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron = Constance Blount
John Tyrrell of Heron, Esquire = Anne Browne
Katherine Tyrrell = Richard Baker of Sissinghurst, Kent
Thomas Baker of Whittingham Hall, Suffolk, and Leyton, Essex = Griselda Barnes
Richard Baker = Margaret Merry
Joyce Baker = Nicholas Butler

Shawn

[leslie...@gmail.com]

Not surprisingly, this connection is wrong.

Richard Baker, the father of Joyce Butler, died in 1604,
as previously mentioned.

Richard, the son of Thomas Baker & Griselda Barnes,
was still living in 1626:

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/baker-thomas-1625

Leslie

[shp...@gmail.com]

Thanks, Leslie. I hope you and others are continuing to look at this interesting line.
Shawn

[wjhonson]

On Sunday, April 2, 2017 at 10:37:33 AM UTC-7, drbbo...@googlemail.com wrote:

I am skeptical of this claim that Ursula and Henry were married in 1575
What is the source

[deljea...@gmail.com]

Unfortunately that makes her a cousin of mine many times 'over'. :)

[Alfred Butler]

Good afternoon

I am coming into the game late but I am looking into the background of Nicholas Butler
my 11 generation great-grandfather.

I was searching for the will of Henry Vanner, which contains references to Joyce Baker and Butler.
This is how I came upon this discussion.

What brought me here was the reference to Vanner in this post.
A somewhat nice source of material

https://johnsonfamily.talldude.net/richard-baker-3231/genstory/304/culimination-of-research

Regards Al

[JBrand]

While that webpage does have some good basic information, particularly near the beginning, the attempt to connect Joyce Baker Butler to the gentry family of Baker of Sissinghurst is misguided, in my opinion. Since Joyce's father Richard Baker was a miller, I think this would preclude his being a son of Thomas Baker of Sissinghurst, a gentleman.

As a Baker-Bayes descendant, I have also to take issue with the following paragraphs:

"The Richard Baker mentioned is almost certainly Joyce's father, as the Margaret Baker mentioned afterwards is her mother. John Harker, Margaret's second husband, was also a miller of Ashford, and in his will he mentions the children of Thomas Boulding (who married Mary Baker above) along with his own children. (25) This would mean Mary (Baker) Boulding was Joyce's sister Mary, who was mentioned in the will of Christopher Merry and Richard Baker.

It is also likely Joyce's sister Joanne later went to New England after her sister. An "Anne Baker" married a Thomas Bayes there, and settled on Martha's Vineyard, right where Joyce and Nicholas Butler lived."

I think the writer is assuming that the name "Joanne" was identical to the modern-day "Jo-Anne," and hence that Anne could likely be a variant. Actually, the name is just plain "Joan" spelled a little elaborately. Anne Baker, who married Thomas Bayes at Dedham in New England, about 15 years before they went to Martha's Vineyard, was probably not related to Joyce (Baker) Butler.

[Alfred Butler]

I appreciate the feedback. Thank you

[David Boulding]

Yes, I agree with this. I am a direct descendent of Thomas Boulding (1592 - 1663) who married Mary Baker (sister to Joyce who m1623 to Nicholas Butler). If I read the mention of "cousin Joyce wife of Nicholas Butler of Ashford, daughter of Richard Baker deceased" in Hy Vanner's will it suggests Joyce as the connection rather than the Butler side. I think it unlikely that Richard Baker has much of a (recent) connection with the Sissinghurst Bakers. Reading various Sissinghurst Baker wills there is no mention of a Richard Baker that could match the Richard Baker who married Margaret Merry (unfortunately - It would have been nice if this were true as I live 5 munutes away from Sissinghurst Castle).

It should also be noted that there is no reliable source of Richard Baker being a miller that I can find. Joyce's step-father John Harker (Hawker) was the miller of Ashford and as Richard Baker died when the Joyce was only 2 years old he would have been the only father she knew... Whilst various histories say Richard Baker was a miller there is no confirmation of this anywhere. Prior to living in Ashford Richard brought up his family in Stanford, Kent (11 miles from Ashford). Perhaps he married Margaret Merry there? No marriage has been found. I am still actively investigating Richard Baker. I'll let you know how I get on. As the the Merry family I have drawn a blank although there is a Christopher Merry at the Merchant Taylor school in London (deadly enemy of the Skinners' company - I was educated at the Skinners' school - this emnity stems from "at sixes and sevens") See https://www.merchant-taylors.co.uk/news/billesden-award

[David Boulding]

Ursula Vanner was nee Rooke as is noted in her will 1634

https://archive.org/stream/genealogist04lond/genealogist04lond_djvu.txt</p>

<Will of Ursula Vanner, Widow, of Parish of S. George, Canterbury.

Dated 5th Nov. 1632, and proved 1 6th June 1634.

Amongst many charities, she leaves £50 to clothe 50 poor widows or women of
S. George’s parish ; 40s to the poor of Monkshorton ; 40« to the poor of the Walloon
or French Congregation ; and £5 to “the preacher that shall preach at my funerall.”

She names, Brothers George, William, and John Rooke, and the wives of George,
William and John Rooke ; nephews and niece Laurence, William and Mary,
children of Brother George ; Sister Barton ; Brother and Sister Best ; Brother Taver-
ner ; nephew Fyneux and niece Ursula Fyneux ; cosen Thomas Fineux and wife ;
cosen John Best and his wife ; nephew George Best; and cosen Finch.

Appoints overseers of will, Brother Francis Barton and Peter Pyard ; and Exor.,
Brother George.

In a codicil she names John, George, Laurence, and Anne, the children of her
brother William Rooke, and Susan Rooke, his now wife.

[jeans...@yahoo.co.uk]