Elizabeth or Katherine Carmichael mistress of James V

[Louise Gibson]

Was she Elizabeth or Katherine Carmichael who was a mistress of James V ?

SP contradict itself with regards her Christian name. The Index, Vol 9, has her recorded
as both: 9:275 Elizabeth "mistress of James V; wife of Sir John Somerville..." and 9:276
Katherine, mistress of James V; wife of Sir John Somerville...".
With the exception of the first entry against Elizabeth as 1:24, both, as Elizabeth and as
Katherine, SP quotes: 2:160,168; 4:565; 8:14
There are no corrections in 9: Addenda and Corrigenda for any of the above quotes.

She is referred to as Elizabeth in the section 1, 24 [Kings of Scotland] with reference to
her being a mistress of James V.

SP 2:160 [Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell] names her as Katherine, a mistress of James V, and
quotes from "Memorie of the Somervilles": Vol 1, 373-386
SP 2:168 [Stewart of Bothwell] names her as Catherine, mistress of James V, SP quotes from
Fraser "The Lennox", Vol 1, 419, which in turn quotes from the same "Memorie of the
Somervilles"
Both these entries state she was the daughter of Sir John Carmichael, Captain of Crawford
Castle, and afterwards married to Sir John Somerville of Cambusnethan.
Fraser, "The Lennox": Vol 1, 420 states Katherine Carmichael married "young Cambusnethan"
in 1537.
Her father, Sir John Carmichael, Captain of Crawford Castle, was the 3rd of Meadowflat.

SP 4:565 [Carmichael, Earl of Hyndford] refers to an Elizabeth Carmichael, but not in any
context with James V. This Elizabeth Carmichael daughter of John Carmichael of Balmeadie
married Sir John Somerville, the 1st Baron of Cambusnethan, on the 3rd July 1489. Her
father was a younger brother of William Carmichael, 2nd of Meadowflat.
SP 8:14 [Somerville. Lord Somerville] refers to Elizabeth, daughter of John Carmichael of
Balmeadie as marrying, on the 3rd of July 1489, Sir John Somerville, the 1st of
Cambusnethan, who died at Flodden in 1513. They had issue two sons and three daughters.
Their eldest son was John, 2nd of Cambusnethan, "Red Bag", who died in 1553, had a son,
John Somerville, the 3rd of Cambusnethan and it was this young man who married Katherine
Carmichael, daughter of Sir John Carmichael , the 3rd of Meadowflat.

I suggest that the mistress of James V was Katherine Carmichael, and that over time
researchers have blended her with her first cousin, once removed, Elizabeth.
To complicate things just that little bit more, both Elizabeth Carmichael of Balmeadie,
and Katherine Carmichael of Meadowflat, married a Sir John Somerville of Cambusnethan, but
these men were grandfather and grandson.

Louise Gibson
Burnie
Tasmania in OZ


On 3/02/2014 7:00 PM, Brad Verity <royald...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>James V of Scotland = Elizabeth Carmichael, and had
1) John Stewart, Lord Darnley, illegit. (c.1531-1563) m. Lady Jean Hepburn (c.1536-1599,
descended from Edward III), and had
2) Francis Stewart, 1st Earl of Bothwell (1562-1612) m. Lady Margaret Douglas
(c.1553-1640, descended from Edward III), and had
3) John Stewart of Coldingham, 2nd son (d. by 1656) m. Margaret Home, and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00286782&tree=LEO
4) Christian Stuart (d. 1684) m. Sir Edward Widdrington, 1st Baronet of Cartington
(1614-1671, descended from Edward III), and had
5) Mary Widdrington (1632-1703) m. Sir Edward Charlton, 1st Baronet of Hesleyside (d.
1675, descended from Edward III)

[Derek Howard]

I think you are correct.

A grant of 4 Oct 1539 refers to John Somerwile of Cambusnethane and Katherine Carmichaell his wife.
The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1513-1546, 1883, p 455, no 2027.
https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi03scot#page/454/

The earlier John Somervale of Camnethane and Elizabeth Carmichaell relict of John S. of Camnethane, knt. are mentioned in a grant of 15 Apr 1516
The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1513-1546, 1883, p 15, no 68 https://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi03scot#page/14/

Derek Howard

[Steve Wilson]

Further evidence, albeit circumstantial, in favor of her given name being Catherine is the fact that her purported father (John, 3rd of Meadowflat) was married to a Catherine Charteris, of the Gaitslakis branch.

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:47:48 PM UTC-8, Louise Gibson wrote:
> I suggest that the mistress of James V was Katherine Carmichael, and that over time
> researchers have blended her with her first cousin, once removed, Elizabeth.
> To complicate things just that little bit more, both Elizabeth Carmichael of Balmeadie,
> and Katherine Carmichael of Meadowflat, married a Sir John Somerville of Cambusnethan, but
> these men were grandfather and grandson.

On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:41:52 AM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
> Further evidence, albeit circumstantial, in favor of her given name being Catherine is the fact that her purported father (John, 3rd of Meadowflat) was married to a Catherine Charteris, of the Gaitslakis branch.

Dear Louise, Derek & Steve,

Many thanks for pointing this out. The ODNB bio of James V's son John Stewart, Lord Darnley, says, "The illegitimate son of King James V (1512-1542) and Elizabeth (or Katherine), daughter of Sir John Carmichael. " It's great to know definitively that her first name was 'Katherine' not 'Elizabeth'.

I've adjusted her name in my database, and have also now added her husband and her parents, which I didn't previously have.

Thanks again, and Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, February 7, 2014 9:41:52 AM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:

> Further evidence, albeit circumstantial, in favor of her given name being Catherine is the fact that her purported father (John, 3rd of Meadowflat) was married to a Catherine Charteris, of the Gaitslakis branch.

Dear Steve,

I have in my database a John Charteris, with no dates or parents, as the first of the four husbands of Janet Gray (c.1489-1539), daughter of Andrew, 2nd Lord Gray, and granddaughter of John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl (descended from Edward III).

Was this John Charteris related to Catherine Charteris of Gaitslakis, mother of James V's mistress Katherine Carmichael of Meadowflat?

Cheers, ----Brad

[Douglas Richardson]

Louise ~

Here are some additional sources which add information on Sir John Somerville (died 1593) and his two wives, Katherine Carmichael (former mistress of King James V) and Katherine Murray. Dunbar is usually reliable but in this case he erroneously refers to Sir John Somerville's first wife as Elizabeth Carmichael.

1. Irving, Upper Ward of Lanarkshire 1 (1864): 469-471. Available at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ze8GAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:MocimAOMo_0C&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MDf1Uv-HHMLbyQG9lYHQBg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

2. Dunbar, Scottish Kings (1906): 239. Available at the following weblink:

https://archive.org/details/scottishkingsre00dunbuoft

3. Somerville, Baronial House of Somerville (1920): 86-90. Available at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WKBMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA86

4. National Archives of Scotland, GD8/310; GD8/168; GD40/4/136; GD40/4/146; GD40/4/158.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Steve Wilson]

Brad,

The Charteris family of Gaitslakis were descended from the Amisfield family (in which Robert was a common given name), apparently the senior line. Catherine was the daughter of Robert of Gaitslakis (d. bef. 1506), who was in turn son of Robert of Amisfield, apparently by his wife Agnes Maxwell.

John Charteris (d. 1508), husband of Janet Gray, was of the Cuthilgurdy branch, which appears to have been closely related to the Charteris of Kinfauns line, given their frequent association in the period c. 1500-1550. It's my best guess that John of Cuthilgurdy was the younger brother of Thomas of Kinfauns (d. 1543), both sons (by a previous wife) of the William of Kinfauns who married in 1476 Christian Erskine, widow of Patrick, 1st Lord Graham (d. 1466). The Kinfauns family also held the lands of Cangnor. How they descend from the Amisfield family is unclear, though the relationship is maintained.

John Charteris and Janet Gray are usually listed with two daughters and co-heiresses, Elizabeth (m. William Bonar of Rossie) and Alison (m. Thomas Fotheringham of Powrie). I suspect that John of Cuthilgurdy (d. 1544-49) and Patrick of Cuthligurdy (d. 1538-39) were also sons of John and Janet, after whose deaths Cuthilgurdy went to their sisters, both of whom were still living.

Hope that helps.

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, February 7, 2014 2:47:46 PM UTC-8, Steve Wilson wrote:
> John Charteris (d. 1508), husband of Janet Gray, was of the Cuthilgurdy branch, which appears to have been closely related to the Charteris of Kinfauns line, given their frequent association in the period c. 1500-1550. It's my best guess that John of Cuthilgurdy was the younger brother of Thomas of Kinfauns (d. 1543), both sons (by a previous wife) of the William of Kinfauns who married in 1476 Christian Erskine, widow of Patrick, 1st Lord Graham (d. 1466). The Kinfauns family also held the lands of Cangnor. How they descend from the Amisfield family is unclear, though the relationship is maintained.

[snip]
>
> Hope that helps.

Thanks, Steve - this helps quite a lot! I appreciate it.

Cheers, ----Brad