How Many Daughters did Elizabeth of Hereford Have?
bat...@hotmail.com
I'm currently researching the children of Elizabeth, Countess of
Hereford, daughter of Edward I and favorite sister of her brother Edward
II.
According to CP and John Carmi Parsons in his 1984 article in *Medieval
Studies* on Eleanor of Castile and her children, the Countess of
Hereford had 10 children by her 2nd husband Humphrey de Bohun.
Six sons are documented in original sources:
1) Humphrey, who was born in 1305 at Pleshy Castle, and died young.
This is according to Mary Anne Everett Green in her bio of Elizabeth in
"Lives of the Princesses of England," and she cites the Wardrobe Book,
34 Edw. I as her source. CP states that this Humphrey died an infant on
10 Sep. 1304, and cites *Monasticon* as the source. Everett Green
noted that the Chronicle of Lanthony, Lansdowne, says that Humphrey died
on that same date (10 Sep 1304), but felt since it didn't match the
dates in the Wardrobe Records for the birth of Elizabeth's first 3
children, it had to be incorrect. It is chronologically impossible for
Elizabeth to have had her eldest son before 1305, since the Household
Accounts demonstrate that her first son was her 3rd child, and she and
Humphrey were married in Nov. 1302.
2) John, who was born on 23 Nov 1306 at St. Clements, according to CP,
without citing a source. Everett Green states John was born in 1307,
and cites Rot. Exit, 35 Edw. I as her source. This discrepancy is more
easily reconciled than that of Humphrey. The regnal year 35 Edw. I
would be from Nov 1306 until his death in July 1307, so the date 23 Nov
1306 falls at the very beginning of 35 Edw. I. John succeeded his
father as Earl of Hereford and Essex, married twice and died childless.
3) Humphrey, who was born about 1309, according to CP, who cites
inquisitions after his brother John's death as the source. CP further
states that a Welsh inquisition definitely states that Humphrey was aged
26 on St. Nicholas's Day last--i.e., on 6 Dec. 1335. This second
Humphrey succeeded his brother John as Earl of Hereford and Essex, and
died having never married.
4) William and 5) Edward, twins, who were born about 1312, according to
CP without citing a source. Edward became a knight, married, but died
childless in 1334, according to CP, which cites 2 chronicles and an
Inq.p.m. as its sources. William became Earl of Northampton, married,
and had one son and one daughter. I wonder if these two brothers were
identical or fraternal twins? The chronicles probably don't say.
6) Eneas, according to CP and Everett Green, but neither offer an
approximate date for his birth. Eneas is a very unusual name - does
anyone know what the Greek god/hero Aeneas represented? I wonder why
Elizabeth and Humphrey gave such a name to their son, and think maybe
the Greek myth the name is from might offer a clue. Eneas died
unmarried after 1322, as he's mentioned in his father's will.
Elizabeth also had 4 daughters, according to CP and Everett Green:
1) Margaret, born in late Sep 1303 at Tynemouth, according to Everett
Green, who cites the Wardrobe Accounts, 29-32 Edw. I as her sources.
This eldest child of Elizabeth died young, and Everett Green surmises
from an entry in the Wardrobe Accounts that it might have been in 1305.
CP mentions the existence of this Margaret who died young, but does not
give dates for birth or death.
2) Eleanor, born in early Oct. 1304 at Knaresborough, according to
Everett Green, who cites various Wardrobe Accounts and Household Rolls
for 32 Edw. I as her sources. This Eleanor grew up and married James
Butler, Earl of Ormond and then Thomas, Lord Dagworth, according to
Everett Green. But CP makes a point to state that genealogists are
wrong and that the Eleanor de Bohun who became Countess of Ormond was
YOUNGER than her sister the Countess of Devon, and cites *Parl. Rolls*,
vol. iv, p. 268 as its source. If this is indeed true, and other
evidence (such as the dates the two sisters' marriages were arranged)
supports CP that it is, then this Eleanor born in 1304 must also have
died young.
3) Margaret, born 3 Apr. 1311, according to David Faris in *Plantagenet
Ancestry* Does anyone know what source Faris used to derive this date,
as Everett Green does not give a specific year for the birth of this
Margaret, and neither does CP, that I can find? This Margaret grew up
and married Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon. She died at the advanced
age of 80, in 1391.
4) Isabel, born 5 May 1316 at Quenden, Essex, according to Everett
Green, who cites *Chron. Mon., Walden, Cotton MS., Titus D.* as her
sources. This final child lived only a few days at most, according to
Everett Green. CP mentions Isabel, but states only that she died young
and does not give a specific date or year. We do know that sadly this
was the final child of Elizabeth, who died as a result of giving birth
to her. John Parsons points out that Elizabeth's own psalter gives 5
May 1316 as the day of her death.
BUT, there needs to be added a fifth daughter, if what CP says about
Eleanor, Countess of Ormond being younger than her sister Margaret,
Countess of Devon, is true. This second Eleanor would have to have been
born sometime between Jan/Feb. 1312 (if the date of birth for Margaret,
Countess of Devon is accurate) and Sep. 1315 (assuming Elizabeth bore
final child Isabel during her 9th month of pregnancy, which might not
necessarily be the case, considering the fatal outcome for both
Elizabeth and the infant). Further complications as to birth chronology
arise when you consider that Elizabeth must also have borne her twin
sons and her youngest son Eneas between the same dates of Jan/Feb 1312
and Sep 1315. It is possible, though, for her to have had 3 births
(including one of twins!) at full term in that narrow timeframe, and
might help explain her sad death in childbirth at age 33.
I think the 'official' count of Elizabeth's children needs to be
adjusted to 11 instead of 10. Does anyone have any thoughts or
suggestions for further sources of research on the topic?
Best regards, --------Brad Verity
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http://www.deja.com/
Randy Jones
(snip)
> 4) William and 5) Edward, twins, who were born about
> 1312, according to
> CP without citing a source. Edward became a knight,
> married, but died
> childless in 1334, according to CP, which cites 2
> chronicles and an
> Inq.p.m. as its sources. William became Earl of
> Northampton, married,
> and had one son and one daughter. I wonder if these
> two brothers were
> identical or fraternal twins? The chronicles
> probably don't say.
I have that William de Bohun (b.c.1312) married
Elizabeth de Baddlesmere (c.1313-1355), dau of
Bartholomew de Baddlesmere and Margaret de Clare and
that this William had at least two children, Elizabeth
(d.1385)who m. Richard FitzAlan, and Humphrey X de
Bohun (1342-1372/3), Earl of Hereford, Essex &
Northampton, who m. Joan FitzAlan. Or is this not the
same person as #4 above?
- Randy Jones
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Todd A. Farmerie
>
> (snip)
>
> > 4) William and 5) Edward, twins, who were born about
> > 1312, according to
> > CP without citing a source. Edward became a knight,
> > married, but died
> > childless in 1334, according to CP, which cites 2
> > chronicles and an
> > Inq.p.m. as its sources. William became Earl of
> > Northampton, married,
> > and had one son and one daughter. I wonder if these
> > two brothers were
> > identical or fraternal twins? The chronicles
> > probably don't say.
>
> I have that William de Bohun (b.c.1312) married
> Elizabeth de Baddlesmere (c.1313-1355), dau of
> Bartholomew de Baddlesmere and Margaret de Clare and
> that this William had at least two children, Elizabeth
> (d.1385)who m. Richard FitzAlan, and Humphrey X de
> Bohun (1342-1372/3), Earl of Hereford, Essex &
> Northampton, who m. Joan FitzAlan. Or is this not the
> same person as #4 above?
Yes. It is.
taf
RMe...@aol.com
farm...@interfold.com writes:
<< I have that William de Bohun (b.c.1312) married
> Elizabeth de Baddlesmere (c.1313-1355), dau of
> Bartholomew de Baddlesmere and Margaret de Clare >>
was elizabeth de badlesmere also the widow of edmumd mortimer the son of
roger mortimer 1st earl of march?
Loyaulte Me Lie,
Rania
bat...@hotmail.com
> was elizabeth de badlesmere also the widow of edmumd mortimer the son
of
> roger mortimer 1st earl of march?
Rania,
Yes. It is the same Elizabeth de Badlesmere. She and Edmund de
Mortimer were married on 27 Jun 1316, when she was about 3 years old and
he was aged about 10. They had two sons, the surviving one, Roger de
Mortimer, was restored to the Earldom of March.
William de Bohun, Earl of Northampton was first cousin to King Edward
III, and remained a loyal supporter and close friend of the King
throughout his life. He helped Edward III capture and overthrow his
mother's lover Roger, Earl of March, in 1330. Ironically, the Earl of
March was Elizabeth de Badlesmere's father-in-law at the time. Her
husband Edmund de Mortimer died in 1332, and in 1335 she wed William de
Bohun. This was a beneficial move on her part, for by marrying a man so
close to the King, she in turn could develop influence at court and with
the royal family. It probably helped restore her son Roger to the
confiscated lands and earldom of the de Mortimers.
Best regards,