Grosvenor / Pershale Connection and Line?
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> When looking at other people's info I have seen Isabella Pershale and
> Thomas Grosvenor listed as the parents of Randall Grosvenor (b. c1455)
> who married Margery Mainwaring. The line usually goes up from
> Isabella to a Robert de Pershale whose mother is shown as Arbella
> d'Avranches, daughter of Richard and Emma de Conteville.
> Unfortunately, no sources.
>
> I couldn't find anything about this in DejaNews and was wondering if
> anyone had any information on the Pershale line they could share along
> with source information or at least pointers to likely sources.
> (Although I am up to my interlibrary loan limit ATM... sigh...)
>
> Thanks much,
> Soph
>
> sophelyn (at) fnbnet.net
> Your Smiling Aus.Tex Hostess
> remove the 'z' to reply, or better yet post
You must be a Bulkeley descendant. I prefer Peshall or Peshale myself.
Randall who b. ca 1455 married a Margery, but I do not believe that
there is concrete evidence that she is a Mainwaring or what her
parentage is.
This is what I have. It is from the George Morris Collection, which has
been filmed by the LDS and from various volumes of Wm. Salt, Collections
for History of Staffordshire, a periodical.
1. Isabel of Bellaport, Shropshire.
2. Richard Peshall of Chetwynd, Shropshire.
3. Margaret Malpas of Wistaston, Cheshire.
4. Sir Thomas Peshall of Chetwynd; d. after 1380/81.
5. Phillipa Benet of Butley.
8. Sir Richard Peshall of Horsley, Staffordshire; b. ca. 1335; d. 1388.
9. Joan Chetwynd of Chetwynd, Shropshire; d. after 1343.
16. Adam Peshall of Peshall, Staffordshire; b. before 1315; d. 1346 at
Caynton, Shropshire.
17. Joan Eyton of Eyton upon the Weald Moors, Shropshire; d. after 1377.
32. Adam Peshall of Peshall; d. before 1315.
33. Ann
64. Richard Peshall of Peshall.
128. John Swinnerton of Swinnerton, Staffordshire; b. before 1226;d
1254.
129. Eleanor Peshall of Peshall, Staffordshire; d. before 1254.
256. John Swinnerton of Little Sugnall, Staffordshire; d. ca. 1226.
257. Pernel Doreslowe of Doreslowe, Staffordshire.
258. Stephen Peshall of Peshall; d. after 1227.
512. Robert Fitz Aelen of Swinnerton; b. before 1101; d. after 1155.
1024. Aelen; a Breton.
1025. Tittensore of Tittensore, Staffordshire.
This still needs much more research, but is probably much more accurate
than The Pearsall Family junk.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Dennis J. Cunniff
are the parents of Randall Grosvenor ?
Jacobus, Donald Lines, The Bulkeley Genealogy, The Tuttle, Morehouse, and
Taylor Company, New Haven, Connecticut, 1933 discusses "The Grosvenor
Line" on pages 6-11.
He gives the following lineage:
(1) Robert le Grosvenor & Alice
(2) Randle le Grosvenor ( - <1232)
(3) Robert le Grosvenor ( - <1231) & Margery
(3) Richard le Grosvenor
(4) Robert le Grosvenor ( - <1293) & Margery
(5) Robert le Grosvenor ( - <1328) & Margery
(6) Robert le Grosvenor ( - <1342) & Emma de Modburlegh (dau. of
William de Modburlegh)
(7) Ralph le Grosvenor ( - <1356) & Joan
(8) Sir Robert le Grosvenor* (~1342 - 1396) & Joan de Pulford
(dau. of Robert de Pulford)
(9) Sir Thomas Grosvenor (1377 - 1429) & Joan Venables
(10) Robert Grosvenor (~1405 - )
(10) Ralph Grosvenor
(10) Thomas Grosvenor (~1415 - ) & Isabella Peshall, dau. of
Richard Peshall
(11) Randall Grosvenor & Margaret Mainwaring, dau. of Randall
Mainwaring
(12) Randall Grosvenor (~1480 - 1559) & Anne Charlton (~1480 -
)
(13) Thomas Grosvenor
(13) Geoffrey Grosvenor
(13) Katherine Grosvenor
(13) Elizabeth Grosvenor (~1515 - ) & Thomas Bulkeley (~1515
- 1591)
(13) Robert Grosvenor
(13) Margery Grosvenor
(13) Randall Grosvenor
(13) Henry Grosvenor
(10) Randall Grosvenor
(8) Sir Robert le Grosvenor* (~1342 - 1396) & Margaret Danyers ( -
1370)
(7) Robert le Grosvenor
(2) Robert le Grosvenor
He says Isabella Peshall was daughter and coheir of Richard Peshall of
Chetwynd and Bellaport, Shropshire. (Richard, >not< Robert)
He dismisses the "pleasing fancy" that a descent can be traced from a
"Gilbert le Grosvenor" as a myth deriving from a misreading of the name
of Gilbert de Venables, baron of Kinderton.
He describes a dispute between Sir Richard Scrope (1st Baron Scrope of
Bolton) and Sir Robert Grosvenor, who both claimed the same arms (Azure,
a Bend, Or). Witnesses for Scrope included John of Gaunt; the future
Henry IV; Sir John Holand; Geoffrey Chaucer; and Henry de Percy ("Harry
Hotspur"). "Wild claims" made by both sides during this dispute are not
supported by other evidence.
He cites the following as sources:
(1) W.H.B. Bird, "The Grosvenor Myth", The Ancestor, 1902, vol. 1, pp.
166-188; vol 2, pp. 129-55.
(2) Ormerod: "History of Cheshire," vol. 3, pp. 143-152.
(3) Collins: The Peerage of England, 4th Edition, 1768, vol. 7, pp.
503-514.
(4) The Herald and Genealogist, vol. 4, pp. 481-495; vol. 5, pp. 322-326,
499-507. (contains errors, he notes)
(5) Shropshire Archaeological Society Transactions, 4th Series, vol. 10,
pp. 290, 292, 293; vol. 11, p. 40.
(6) Documentary evidence is appended:
a) Inquisitions on estate of Randall Grosvenor (husband of Margaret
Mainwaring)
b) will of Randall Grosvenor (husband of Anne Charleton)
Todd A. Farmerie
> This is what I have. It is from the George Morris Collection, which has
> been filmed by the LDS and from various volumes of Wm. Salt, Collections
> for History of Staffordshire, a periodical.
> 8. Sir Richard Peshall of Horsley, Staffordshire; b. ca. 1335; d. 1388.
> 9. Joan Chetwynd of Chetwynd, Shropshire; d. after 1343.
> 16. Adam Peshall of Peshall, Staffordshire; b. before 1315; d. 1346 at
> Caynton, Shropshire.
> 17. Joan Eyton of Eyton upon the Weald Moors, Shropshire; d. after 1377.
I have three different accounts of the family, and no two of them are
the same at this point. This Adam married twice, and Richard was of the
first wife. However, the accounts are split as to whether Joan Eyton
was the first wife or the second, or even the wife of his son Adam.
Likewise, one account places this Adam as son of a Richard who was
Sheriff in the 1330s, while most accounts make him Adam's brother. I
have no solution to this.
> 32. Adam Peshall of Peshall; d. before 1315.
> 33. Ann
> 64. Richard Peshall of Peshall.
> 128. John Swinnerton of Swinnerton, Staffordshire; b. before 1226;d
> 1254.
> 129. Eleanor Peshall of Peshall, Staffordshire; d. before 1254.
> 256. John Swinnerton of Little Sugnall, Staffordshire; d. ca. 1226.
> 257. Pernel Doreslowe of Doreslowe, Staffordshire.
> 258. Stephen Peshall of Peshall; d. after 1227.
> 512. Robert Fitz Aelen of Swinnerton; b. before 1101; d. after 1155.
One pedigree I have seen in the Wm Salt Soc. makes this Robert son of
another Robert F A. Likewise, the heiress of Tittensore is made wife of
Robert #512.
> 1024. Aelen; a Breton.
> 1025. Tittensore of Tittensore, Staffordshire.
taf
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> G . EDWARD ALLEN wrote:
>
> > This is what I have. It is from the George Morris Collection, which has
> > been filmed by the LDS and from various volumes of Wm. Salt, Collections
> > for History of Staffordshire, a periodical.
>
>
> > 8. Sir Richard Peshall of Horsley, Staffordshire; b. ca. 1335; d. 1388.
> > 9. Joan Chetwynd of Chetwynd, Shropshire; d. after 1343.
> > 16. Adam Peshall of Peshall, Staffordshire; b. before 1315; d. 1346 at
> > Caynton, Shropshire.
> > 17. Joan Eyton of Eyton upon the Weald Moors, Shropshire; d. after 1377.
>
> I have three different accounts of the family, and no two of them are
> the same at this point. This Adam married twice, and Richard was of the
> first wife. However, the accounts are split as to whether Joan Eyton
> was the first wife or the second, or even the wife of his son Adam.
> Likewise, one account places this Adam as son of a Richard who was
> Sheriff in the 1330s, while most accounts make him Adam's brother. I
> have no solution to this.
>
Let's analyze the "sources" and see what we might be able to glean.
Wm. Salt Soc., Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Vol. 5, Pt.2.
p.239, "The Visitations of Staffordshire in 1614 and 1663-64," 'Peshall
of Horsley'.
Hardly a contemporary document! It gives a See 'Staff. Coll.,' i., 336,
345, etc. and iv., part 2, 73 et seq.
This gives Adam Peshall, Dominus de Peshall as the son of Richard
Peshall, miles(knight) and Margeria, filia et haeres Hugonis Knighton
(dtr. & heiress of Hugh Knighton). His two wives are given as Agnes,
filia et haeres Jo. Caverswall and filia et haeres Joh'is Weston, D'ni
de Weston sup. Lizard. He is also given a brother Richard.
George Morris also gives the same, with the Weston wife being given as
Johanna.
Wm. Salt Soc. Coll. Hist. Staffs. 1914, Walter Chetwynd, "History of
Pirehill Hundred," 'Peshale', pp. 43 et seq. Chart p. 45 :
Adam de Peshall = Ann, relict[widow], c. 1315.
ot de Whethales. 1
1
1
_________________________________________________________________
Sir Richard de P. John de P. Adam de P.
Sheriff, 1333 #1 wife = d. 1346 = #2 Joan
= Margery Knyghton 1 1 dtr. of
1 1 1 John de
1 1 1 Eyton &
Richard, living 1343. 1 1 relict of
___________________________________________________ 1 Sir Henry
1 1 1 1 Creswell.
Sir Richard John Sir Hamo 1
Sheriff, 1374, 1
d. 1387. 1
1
Elizabeth = Sir Adam de P.
de Weston d. 1419.
I am inclined on chronology and dependability to pick the above chart
as the more likely to be accurate. So Todd is right about Sir Richard
and the first wife as mother.
Trans. Shrops. Arch. Soc. ran a series on Shropshire Members of
Parliament. The article on Sir Richard, Sheriff 1333 gives TSAS series
3, vol. VI: 218 as a source for his parentage. This should be checked.
I just found a reference to this article, NOT the article itself. "The
pedigree quoted by the Rev. W.G.D. Fletcher in S. Ar. Trans.[also
TSAS]., 3 Ser., VI. 218 gives only one Sir Richard Peshale and makes him
living in 1343 and Sheriff of Shropshire in 1374-76 but a Sir Richard
Peshale was Sheriff in 1333, 4 and 9, was M.P. for Staffordshire in
illegible Parliaments between 1334 and 1343. A Sir Richard Peshale was
also Sheriff of this County [Shropshire] in 1374, 5, and 6, was M.P.
for Shropshire in 1379 and 80 and M.P. for Staffordshire in 1383. It is
clear that there must have been 2 Sir Richards..." Material between[]
are my interpolations. This shows that that pedigree is unreliable.
Nothing concrete is given, but I feel that the chart I quoted is much
more probable than the Visitations and George Morris.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Coll. Hist. Staffs. 1917/1918 gives an article on Staffordshire MPs.
Pp. 65 and 66 give the same Sir Richard de Peshale or de Whethales,
b. c. 1300; son of Adam de P. (alias de Whethales or de Swynnerton; d.
1307/15) by Anne____. No sources are cited.
Reedpcgen
Sir Adam Peshall of Horsley and Bishops Offley, co. Stafford, by one wife, and
Sir Adam de Peshall [Jr.] as son by the other wife. The younger Adam, M. P.,
Sheriff, etc., founded the family of Weston-under-Lizard, so at least he
presumably inherited that land. Sir Richard was also MP and Sheriff.
If the heiress of Weston-under-Lizard were the first wife, it would follow that
her heir would be the eldest son and heir of the elder Sir Adam, the father.
If she were second wife, her son and heir would have inherited the mother's
portion at Weston, but not the fathers. So if Sir Richard succeeded to the
father's lands, and the younger Sir Adam to the mother's lands, that would
solve the question about the order of the wives and which was son of which.
But I guess as the father Adam was beheaded there would have been no
inquisition post mortem taken.
I have to recheck Rev. F. Parker, "Chetwynd's History of Pirehill Hundred, with
Notes", WSAS [1914]; Rev. Ernest R. O. Bridgeman and Charles Bridgeman,
"History of the manor and parish of Weston-under-Lizard...", WSAS (n. s.) 2
(1899); and Josiah C. Wedgwood, "Staffordshire History from the earliest times
in the present day", WSAS (3rd ser.) [1917] 1, pp. 119-20, 134-5. I wonder if
the sons are covered by _The House of Commons_ [biographies of Parliament] yet.
The maternity of these sons was not my focus when I looked at this family
before.
A little history: The elder Sir Adam was called "a common malefactor,
nortoriously accused of various homicides and other felonies .... After being
followed from place to place he was at length taken at Caynton in Shropshire
and beheaded...." in 1346.
The brothers themselves were embroilled in quite a feud (Hamo de Peshall having
married Alesia de Harley, only 'legitimate' daughter of Robert and Joan
[Corbet] de Harley). Perhaps Kay could relate a few of those details, since
she has a copy of The Genealogist.
pcr
Raymond l. montgomery
Thanks Paul
RAY
On 22 Aug 1998 03:21:42 GMT reed...@aol.com (Reedpcgen) writes:
>The Bridgemans (one a rector, the other a barrister) in their careful
>and
>detailed book-length history of Weston-under-Lizard, seem to
>contradict all the
>pedigrees, yet be correct. When I get time, I'll try to list the
>specific
>cites used as evidence.
>
>pcr
>
>
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